Guild Wars 2

Except if the group doesn’t have any other major bleed/condition users, or if the group doesn’t have another thief with an IQ high enough to realize how to maximize utilities situation to situation.

Seriously people can optimize builds that aren’t yours and not every team contains condition users (its actually rare for me to be in a team with any other real sources of bleeds, even the few times there has been a warrior they’ve not stacked more than about 4-5)

Dasorine.1964:

Except if the group doesn’t have any other major bleed/condition users, or if the group doesn’t have another thief with an IQ high enough to realize how to maximize utilities situation to situation.

Seriously people can optimize builds that aren’t yours and not every team contains condition users (its actually rare for me to be in a team with any other real sources of bleeds, even the few times there has been a warrior they’ve not stacked more than about 4-5)

Do you have a Warrior or Necromancer in your group?
I usually group with 2 warriors and a Necro, but all experiences vary.

Not regularly no and tbh im getting bored of this arguement your entire reason for the change is because you want a new skill for YOUR build and don’t beleive anyone else could find value in using it in any other build.

So no, this is a bad change just like every other change you’ve suggested so far.

Dasorine.1964:

Not regularly no and tbh im getting bored of this arguement your entire reason for the change is because you want a new skill for YOUR build and don’t beleive anyone else could find value in using it in any other build.

So no, this is a bad change just like every other change you’ve suggested so far.

Actually doing this to SoM would open up a lot more builds for the class, not just one or mine, it would create more P/x builds.

Daecollo.9578:

Dasorine.1964:

Not regularly no and tbh im getting bored of this arguement your entire reason for the change is because you want a new skill for YOUR build and don’t beleive anyone else could find value in using it in any other build.

So no, this is a bad change just like every other change you’ve suggested so far.

Actually doing this to SoM would open up a lot more builds for the class, not just one or mine, it would create more P/x builds.

it’s sounds like it would destroy a lot more builds then it would create imo

Daecollo.9578:

Then why are you arguing about my change? Your hit-volume is low, the change would increase your healing a lot due to being able to heal every second and not relying on gimmicks or high hit volume attacks, not decrease it.

While it may theoretically increase passive healing, it would directly kill 100% of my ability to tactically burst heal with dancing dagger through my own and the necro’s shadow fields, use daggerstorm+mad king birds to total tank, sustain things like graveling mounds with a shortbow, use enemy groups ressing as a health fulcrum, and a number of other situational tools that my gear is actually set up to do so that I spend less time in stealth and more time actively bleeding, snaring, blinding, burning, and otherwise softening/finishing targets.

I don’t use SoM as a passive part of my play, but as a very deliberate and active one. That’s what makes it worthwhile.

The “gimmicks” as you call them are integral to the entire setup of the build and how it interacts with the rest of the group. The use of SoM, as I use it, is literally the centerpiece of the build, not an afterthought. They’re what let me tank in PvE, they’re what let me personally move zergs in WvW, and they’re what let me create highly effective zones of denial and being the generally debilitating toolbox that I am in these situations to the betterment of my group.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against SoM being made a little more desirable to other build types, but the cooldown and flat +heal removes all of the above. I really do think the active itself is where to put the adjustment, and I don’t know if you picked it up but I think changing that active to a short duration “super life leech” would keep the current use of the skill intact while making it more viable for use in more single target/evasive situations.

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

Then why are you arguing about my change? Your hit-volume is low, the change would increase your healing a lot due to being able to heal every second and not relying on gimmicks or high hit volume attacks, not decrease it.

While it may theoretically increase passive healing, it would directly kill 100% of my ability to tactically burst heal with dancing dagger through my own and the necro’s shadow fields, use daggerstorm+mad king birds to total tank, sustain things like graveling mounds with a shortbow, use enemy groups ressing as a health fulcrum, and a number of other situational tools that my gear is actually set up to do so that I spend less time in stealth and more time actively bleeding, snaring, blinding, burning, and otherwise softening/finishing targets.

I don’t use SoM as a passive part of my play, but as a very deliberate and active one. That’s what makes it worthwhile.

The “gimmicks” as you call them are integral to the entire setup of the build and how it interacts with the rest of the group. The use of SoM, as I use it, is literally the centerpiece of the build, not an afterthought. They’re what let me tank in PvE, they’re what let me personally move zergs in WvW, and they’re what let me create highly effective zones of denial and being the generally debilitating toolbox that I am in these situations to the betterment of my group.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against SoM being made a little more desirable to other build types, but the cooldown and flat +heal removes all of the above. I really do think the active itself is where to put the adjustment, and I don’t know if you picked it up but I think changing that active to a short duration “super life leech” would keep the current use of the skill intact while making it more viable for use in more single target/evasive situations.

Honestly, the healing of it needs improved. How could you improve the heal without adding a cool-down?

PopeUrban.2578:

Nope.

Signet of Malice is specifically designed to reward high hit volumes. Normalizing it as such simply makes it an overall worse heal than the other two rather than a situationally better or worse heal.

Thieves already have the best variety of unique heal skills, and all three of them are already very good at their intended purpose whilst simultaneously sucking when that purpose is not met.

• HiS: Awesome when you’re not revealed, kinda crappy when you are. Worse against CC if you haven’t traited for condition removal in stealth.
• Withdraw: Awesome when you’re not bleeding/burning/poisoned/conditioned to death, kinda crappy when you are.
• Signet of Malice: Awesome in target rich/high hit volume scenarios, kinda crappy against single targets/low hit volumes.

This makes heal selection actually important as a skill selection on a moment-to-moment basis, and Anet has repeatedly said that they want and intend for us to be swapping skills between fights based on the situation (similar to how all of GW1 was designed specifically for you to need to swap skills between areas or for PvP group composition.)

Asking for SoM to be good at something that is counter to its design just plain weakens SoM and actively removes rather than adds build options and combat maneuvers that are the sole reason it’s worth putting on your bar. You’re expecting SoM to “just work” rather than having to “make it work for you” and this isn’t how HiS or Withdraw work either.

There’s a combination of issues here.

SoM only rewards high hit volume builds. This (at the moment) is restrictive, because a thief doesn’t really have a high hit volume build that’s considered worth using in either PvP or PvE. From the PoV of the current meta, SoM needs an update – everyone wants more spec diversity.

Looking at it from a design standpoint (if we assume all classes are well built and have multiple spec options), SoM is fine – its a heal for high hit volume builds, which thief should have plenty of access too (again, assuming classes are well built and have multiple spec options). It gives each of the separate heals their own flavor – tailored more to their own spec, etc…

So, that puts us in an awkward situation. ATM, Anet hasn’t build up any trust in the community as far as giving classes multiple spec options goes. I can see why OP want’s an SoM update; it’s currently crap for anything that isn’t a gimmicky or sub-par spec.

Looking in the long run however (and that’s loosely defined, who knows when ANet is going to actually achieve spec diversity), changing SoM would be a mistake. Theoretically, it’s an awesome heal for high hit volume specs, and in a game where there are multiple high hit volume specs available to thief, it gives the player different play style options.

tl;dr – SoM only sucks at the moment because Anet hasn’t delivered on spec diversity promises. Once thieves have high hit volume specs that work in PvE and PvP, SoM will be a worthwhile heal. ATM though, its crap, and I understand why OP wants it changed (though it shouldn’t happen, due to long term concerns).

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

Then why are you arguing about my change? Your hit-volume is low, the change would increase your healing a lot due to being able to heal every second and not relying on gimmicks or high hit volume attacks, not decrease it.

While it may theoretically increase passive healing, it would directly kill 100% of my ability to tactically burst heal with dancing dagger through my own and the necro’s shadow fields, use daggerstorm+mad king birds to total tank, sustain things like graveling mounds with a shortbow, use enemy groups ressing as a health fulcrum, and a number of other situational tools that my gear is actually set up to do so that I spend less time in stealth and more time actively bleeding, snaring, blinding, burning, and otherwise softening/finishing targets.

I don’t use SoM as a passive part of my play, but as a very deliberate and active one. That’s what makes it worthwhile.

The “gimmicks” as you call them are integral to the entire setup of the build and how it interacts with the rest of the group. The use of SoM, as I use it, is literally the centerpiece of the build, not an afterthought. They’re what let me tank in PvE, they’re what let me personally move zergs in WvW, and they’re what let me create highly effective zones of denial and being the generally debilitating toolbox that I am in these situations to the betterment of my group.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against SoM being made a little more desirable to other build types, but the cooldown and flat +heal removes all of the above. I really do think the active itself is where to put the adjustment, and I don’t know if you picked it up but I think changing that active to a short duration “super life leech” would keep the current use of the skill intact while making it more viable for use in more single target/evasive situations.

Honestly, the healing of it needs improved. How could you improve the heal without adding a cool-down?

Healing on the passive or active? because imo healing is just fine on the passive. For the active, it could as simple as lowering the cast time, or add some condition removal one it. I would love to see it remove weakness, vulnerability and confusion personally.

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Nope.

Signet of Malice is specifically designed to reward high hit volumes. Normalizing it as such simply makes it an overall worse heal than the other two rather than a situationally better or worse heal.

Thieves already have the best variety of unique heal skills, and all three of them are already very good at their intended purpose whilst simultaneously sucking when that purpose is not met.

• HiS: Awesome when you’re not revealed, kinda crappy when you are. Worse against CC if you haven’t traited for condition removal in stealth.
• Withdraw: Awesome when you’re not bleeding/burning/poisoned/conditioned to death, kinda crappy when you are.
• Signet of Malice: Awesome in target rich/high hit volume scenarios, kinda crappy against single targets/low hit volumes.

This makes heal selection actually important as a skill selection on a moment-to-moment basis, and Anet has repeatedly said that they want and intend for us to be swapping skills between fights based on the situation (similar to how all of GW1 was designed specifically for you to need to swap skills between areas or for PvP group composition.)

Asking for SoM to be good at something that is counter to its design just plain weakens SoM and actively removes rather than adds build options and combat maneuvers that are the sole reason it’s worth putting on your bar. You’re expecting SoM to “just work” rather than having to “make it work for you” and this isn’t how HiS or Withdraw work either.

I’m not saying what it wasn’t or was intended for, but by statistics alone not many people use the healing because its only good for those things, and the high hit volume specs and attacks are rather low.

A lot of traits back then were also designed for high hit volumes, however even they were changed as well to have 1-second internal cool-downs.

The thief isn’t what it was back in beta, its changed a lot since then, and our high-hit-volume attacks are not used as much.

The system I placed, does add a cool-down, but it also lets the thief have a viable build from using everything, and not just “some-attacks.”.

They want SoM to be a better heal, because honestly its not very good, but they can’t just buff the heal amount because of some of our high-hit-volume attacks. The internal cooldown will resolve that issue.

The changes proposed would absolutely DESTROY my build though. I DEPEND on SoM’s lack of CD on procs to survive. The reason fewer people use it is due to the fact that most people google the same “Flavor of the Month” (have to type that out now thanks to fractals >.<) build which involves little to no aoe tanking.

The casting time for the active needs to be shortened. No argument.

Clovis.7386:

The casting time for the active needs to be shortened. No argument.

So long as it isn’t placed on an internal CD…..

Daecollo.9578:

PopeUrban.2578:

Daecollo.9578:

Then why are you arguing about my change? Your hit-volume is low, the change would increase your healing a lot due to being able to heal every second and not relying on gimmicks or high hit volume attacks, not decrease it.

While it may theoretically increase passive healing, it would directly kill 100% of my ability to tactically burst heal with dancing dagger through my own and the necro’s shadow fields, use daggerstorm+mad king birds to total tank, sustain things like graveling mounds with a shortbow, use enemy groups ressing as a health fulcrum, and a number of other situational tools that my gear is actually set up to do so that I spend less time in stealth and more time actively bleeding, snaring, blinding, burning, and otherwise softening/finishing targets.

I don’t use SoM as a passive part of my play, but as a very deliberate and active one. That’s what makes it worthwhile.

The “gimmicks” as you call them are integral to the entire setup of the build and how it interacts with the rest of the group. The use of SoM, as I use it, is literally the centerpiece of the build, not an afterthought. They’re what let me tank in PvE, they’re what let me personally move zergs in WvW, and they’re what let me create highly effective zones of denial and being the generally debilitating toolbox that I am in these situations to the betterment of my group.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against SoM being made a little more desirable to other build types, but the cooldown and flat +heal removes all of the above. I really do think the active itself is where to put the adjustment, and I don’t know if you picked it up but I think changing that active to a short duration “super life leech” would keep the current use of the skill intact while making it more viable for use in more single target/evasive situations.

Honestly, the healing of it needs improved. How could you improve the heal without adding a cool-down?

What most of the people here, including myself, are saying is that the passive healing is actually fine. The tradeoff is that you have to work at it to make that passive healing something that works. So, Unlike HiS or Withdraw SoM is a skill you can’t just put on a bar and expect to be effective. That’s the point we’re trying to get you to see.

You’re right, you can’t just straight buff the healing without a cooldown. It would turn builds like mine from “durable” to "deals same damage but now passively outheals everything.

However, you also can’t attach a CD to the SoM passive because then you’re destroying builds.

However, for the purpose of making SoM attractive to builds that don’t already use it I really, really, really do feel the answer is to address the active, not the passive. Tuning up the heal, but balancing it with a CD so that it fits your definition of “good” in situations it underperforms in kills the skill in every single situation it excels in currently. How don’t you see that as a problem after all of this discussion?

If we want to reinforce the passive, I think we had a discussion in another thread about improving its healing power ratio. (Wherin some large number was given, and I believe we discussed why massive buffs are a bit much.)

Now, the HP ratio could stand to be touched up a little, as SoM is the one and only reason currently to even glance at the stat on a thief… but think about SoM in terms of “How can it be made more attractive to more builds without shafting the way it’s already being used”

By build thrives on SoM’s passive. No matter how good the active is, I would scarcely use it because, for my build, the passive is just plain better. However, not all builds can take advantage of the actual power of SoM.

Thus, we’re left with the active heal. If we don’t touch the passive, but in stead make the active fun, engaging, and with a nice flavor that makes people want to use it (like, say, how people run certain utility signets primarily for the active) Then we’ve got a solution that keeps SoM intact while opening it up.

I think the trick here is actually attaching a powerful, useful effect to the active, and keeping the cooldown as is. I still stand by my suggestion of making the passive 4s of uber-leech… and if that’s not good enough I dare say… stability, stunbreak, cooldown resets or even limited haste in addition?

This keeps the current use intact, while making the active highly desirable and worth losing the passive on cooldown. If designed well enough it makes the active attractive enough that builds might use it specifically for the active.

I don’t get the point. You can suggest something but the value is telling us why you think it needs to be changed.

I don’t understand why the original suggestion what made. Signet of Malice works fine the way it is. If you want more healing, just use a heal that gives you more. It’s no sense to me to add a GCD while making SoM stronger.

Improving the Passive heal by 80% (like it was before.) and making the activate instant will go a long way in improving SoM.

Also adding faster attacking or more hit ratio and lowering some to other thief attacks would go a long way to improving SoM.

It does not cure conditions like the other heals do, nore does it take you out of situations.

I suspect the OP does not play thief and just gets stomped by them, and he’s suggesting this nerf to help him win.

danbuter.2314:

I suspect the OP does not play thief and just gets stomped by them, and he’s suggesting this nerf to help him win.

I believe he actually believes this to be a BUFF of some sort to the heal. While this may be true for whatever build he’s running, it’s equally untrue for most of the builds already utilizing SoM.