Guild Wars 2

Most of the efficiency I get from using Signet of Malice with Assassin’s Reward comes from the fact that I have healing power as a major stat on my amulet/gear. I do need to go back and double check that math to make certain Signet of Malice comes out ahead, but the Assassin’s Reward buff + the base Initiative regen buff (which also provides more weapon evades) definitely upped the survivability of the build after the Dec. 10th patch.

As for losing access to Hastened Replenishment and Vigorous Recovery, I survive using Power of Inertia along with Thrill of the Crime + Bountiful Theft + Sleight of Hand. I have boon duration increased from Acrobatics so as long as I’m consistently hitting with Steal I have decent uptime for Vigor while also running around with perma Swiftness and Might stacks.

Interceptor.2653:

No, it’s not a matter of opinion – losing control and choice is always a negative thing.

… which itself is a matter of opinion. I guess that this is the basic problem of this thread, that you don’t acknowledge the possibility that your assertions could be incorrect. Just saying that something is an undebatable fact, does not make it so.

If you feel that losing control of your character at the whim of another player being a negative effect is a matter of opinion and not one of fact, we have nothing further to discuss on that point. I don’t feel you have the necessary understanding of MMO mechanics to contribute meaningfully to that discussion.

I mean, you admit that the loss of control is acceptable for CC skills because of their design, so why doesn’t it follow that HtC can do the same thing in exchange for a fairly hard to acquire effect?

Because that is their specific design – CC is supposed to be a negative effect enacted on another player, so that’s what it does. I already said that if HtC had a positive effect strong enough to outweigh the loss of control, the argument would be different. Regardless, losing control of your character is still an entirely negative effect, it would require other effects, specifically positive, to outweigh that negative effect – HtC clearly does not offer strong enough positive effects to do so.

Not running HtC was a perfectly valid defense prior to Dec 10th – every class has kittenty traits, nothing will ever be perfect, and no one is forcing thieves to take HtC. Since we’re specifically talking about the Dec 10th patch, where HtC was lauded as a survivability buff intended to allow thieves to continue to survive fights despite all the other nerfs, that line of reasoning no longer fits.

And here comes the hyperbole again. Lauded? Really? They just said “we are trying to improve the survivability of thieves in the Acrobatics line through easier access to the Hard to Catch trait and increased effectiveness of the Assassin’s Reward trait”. There is no high praise here, and in fact they worded it such that it sounds like this is literally an experiment to see if it improves the survivability of Acrobatics Thieves. They have access to all of the data that would support or refute such a thing, after all.

And that is the entire point of the original post – the effort was not successful, what are the plans to fix it. That was clearly pointed out in the last section of the original post.

And naturally, “despite all other nerfs” is phrasing entirely of your own construction. What they actually said, was that the intention was to “reward thieves who are actively engaged in the fight rather than those who are just dodging over and over again”. Which you’ll note is quite different from what you said.

I mean, seriously. Putting words in someone’s mouth, or making assumptions about their motives…

The vigor changes specifically target “thieves who dodge over and over again”. Their intention was to buff the survivability via acrobatics to reward players who are not constantly dodging. It follows that the acro buffs were intended to buffer the fact that thieves are now capable of dodging less often. Your interpretation of the post seems unnecessarily strict just to have a point to argue over.

why would anyone want to participate in a discussion under those conditions?

It appears as though you’re the only person in the thread who disagrees so completely. When you disagree with a few people, it’s probably just a difference of opinion. When you disagree with everyone, you might want to re-examine your position.

evilapprentice.6379:

If you feel that losing control of your character at the whim of another player being a negative effect is a matter of opinion and not one of fact, we have nothing further to discuss on that point.

Possibly, although you altered your phrasing at the last second to drop the “always” from “negative effect”. There’s no way to know for sure if you keep moving the goalposts around, changing your final statement to sound less absolute than your original argument.

When you settle on a stance, let me know, and then we can figure out whether it’s reasonable to consider it a “fact” or not. I’m pretty amazing, but I can’t argue against a shape-shifting statement.

Because that is their specific design – CC is supposed to be a negative effect enacted on another player, so that’s what it does.

Why can’t this be the design case for HtC? No exceptions ever? The other similar traits generally don’t remove the CC either, they just have a retaliatory effect instead (except Warriors, because Warriors). HtC Shadow-steps you away from the source of the effect and gives Swiftness; that can be disorienting, but that goes for the enemy as well, and it can put you out of harm’s way temporarily.

You haven’t really made the case for why that’s the way this has to be, except make various assertions, fallacies, and veiled insults about my intelligence.

And that is the entire point of the original post – the effort was not successful, what are the plans to fix it. That was clearly pointed out in the last section of the original post.

No evidence that this is true. They have access to data that you do not; there is, in fact, a post just before yours that’s pointing out the benefits to their own Acrobatics build. It’s fair to ask the ANet devs for an explanation, although given the way you went about it, seems unlikely that you’ll get one, IMO.

The vigor changes specifically target “thieves who dodge over and over again”. Their intention was to buff the survivability via acrobatics to reward players who are not constantly dodging. It follows that the acro buffs were intended to buffer the fact that thieves are now capable of dodging less often. Your interpretation of the post seems unnecessarily strict just to have a point to argue over.

I am taking their words at face value; you are reading tea leaves. Even in the case where this is true, undeniably they have upgraded builds with Healing Power in them.

There are also cascading effects elsewhere. For example, my “Acrobatics” build is now more survivable post-patch than it was before. Why? Because of the changes to Critical Strikes and Deadly Arts. The ability to leverage on-crit (Sundering Strikes, Critical Haste) and the upgrade to Practiced Tolerance has enabled me to swap out Valkyrie gear for Knight’s gear, at a net increase to my survivability without sacrificing much else. It has little to do with specific changes to Acrobatics (although Assassin’s Retreat is quite nice now), but here I am, with better ability to survive than before.

I hate to use myself as an example, since this song is not actually about me, but it was a point worth making.

It appears as though you’re the only person in the thread who disagrees so completely. When you disagree with a few people, it’s probably just a difference of opinion. When you disagree with everyone, you might want to re-examine your position.

Come now. You’re surely above argumentum ad populum.

Shadow Arts 10 point trait Shadow Protector provides a higher healing yield for 100% less effort only requiring you to stealth once every 10 seconds vs Assassin’s reward which would require you to burn all initiative as you get it.

This intent of giving higher survivability to builds without stealth is a good idea, with a very poor execution basing it around a trait all thieves have hated (Hard to Catch) and moving a Good Master trait Assassin’s Reward to a Grand Master slot.

Want to fix this? Move Assassin’s Reward back to 20 point master trait or buff the starting healing 20 points per initiative.
Assassin’s Reward vs Regen boon (regen boon wins)
Assassin’s Reward vs Warrior 15 minor Adrenal Health (Adrenal Health wins, AT HALF THE TRAIT POINTS)

Hard to Catch should just be scrapped. It’s no use. There is no way it could ever match the warrior trait that gives balanced stance upon the same triggers, 8 seconds stability with swiftness and stun break (+more with other traits). Warriors don’t have to break stride to shrug off CC and don’t need to yield time, position, or dps. Hard to Catch needs a complete redesign.

rjinx.1378:

Shadow Arts 10 point trait Shadow Protector provides a higher healing yield for 100% less effort only requiring you to stealth once every 10 seconds vs Assassin’s reward which would require you to burn all initiative as you get it.

This intent of giving higher survivability to builds without stealth is a good idea, with a very poor execution basing it around a trait all thieves have hated (Hard to Catch) and moving a Good Master trait Assassin’s Reward to a Grand Master slot.

Want to fix this? Move Assassin’s Reward back to 20 point master trait or buff the starting healing 20 points per initiative.
Assassin’s Reward vs Regen boon (regen boon wins)
Assassin’s Reward vs Warrior 15 minor Adrenal Health (Adrenal Health wins, AT HALF THE TRAIT POINTS)

I agree with you on most points, but to be fair, AR does have one advantage over heals like AH and Regen – you have the option to spend init for a “burst” heal if you absolutely need it. I’m not claiming that makes AR good, but it’s only fair to recognize its strengths as well.