Guild Wars 2

Kyrion.2749:

LF4M thiefs Fractal 5000+. No noobs. NO WARRIORS!!! NO GAURDIANS!!!

Hahhahaha

Aleth.9630:

Kyrion.2749:

bhagwad.4281:

Suralin.3947:

bhagwad.4281:

Suralin.3947:

bhagwad.4281:

Many thieves don’t “get” why people hate stealth. Hope this thought experiment will illustrate why.

Thought experiment: Remove stealth and change it to invulnerability instead. Who will complain?

1. Thieves often claim that they have no defense and so they require stealth to survive. So giving them invulnerability for the same duration will solve all their complaints right? Everything remains as before. Invulnerability is lost on dealing damage and provides a water tight defense

Question for thieves: Would you be willing to swap stealth for invulnerability?
Same question for non thieves: Would you prefer to fight an invulnerable thief rather than a stealthed thief:

Prediction: Thieves would prefer stealth over invulnerability. Non thieves would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves rather than stealthed vulnerable ones.

YES! Invulnerability for 3s would be awesome. Invulnerability for 10s for placing down SR? I place it down and me and 4 others are now invulnerable, dancing while you place useless AoE and then we prance down the yellow brick road…

What’s the point? You lose invul as soon as you make an attack. So you’re not doing any damage either. Nor are you capping anything.

Would like more responses from non thief players though…

The point is, you just went from “Hard to kill” thief to “Impossible to Kill” thief.

I’ll find a way don’t worry . I would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves as opposed to stealthed ones. That way I can keep an eye on them.

You are estimating your chances under the erroneous assumption that invulnerable thieves would play/fight like stealthed ones.

Yeah, Blinding Powder = cancel-able Mist Form on half the cooldown. Or pop “stealth” anytime on low health and walk around rezzing allies/stomping enemies until your heal is back up. Sounds balanced, right?

bhagwad.4281:

So far though, two responses from non thieves. And both would prefer fighting invuln opponents over stealth. Not counting myself of course.

Any other non thieves would like to weigh in?

Thing is, add “non thieves, who know thieves” to that part. People who don’t know them and their playstyles don’t really have the knowledge to suggest changes.

bhagwad.4281:

Suralin.3947:

bhagwad.4281:

Many thieves don’t “get” why people hate stealth. Hope this thought experiment will illustrate why.

Thought experiment: Remove stealth and change it to invulnerability instead. Who will complain?

1. Thieves often claim that they have no defense and so they require stealth to survive. So giving them invulnerability for the same duration will solve all their complaints right? Everything remains as before. Invulnerability is lost on dealing damage and provides a water tight defense

Question for thieves: Would you be willing to swap stealth for invulnerability?
Same question for non thieves: Would you prefer to fight an invulnerable thief rather than a stealthed thief:

Prediction: Thieves would prefer stealth over invulnerability. Non thieves would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves rather than stealthed vulnerable ones.

YES! Invulnerability for 3s would be awesome. Invulnerability for 10s for placing down SR? I place it down and me and 4 others are now invulnerable, dancing while you place useless AoE and then we prance down the yellow brick road…

What’s the point? You lose invul as soon as you make an attack. So you’re not doing any damage either. Nor are you capping anything.

Would like more responses from non thief players though…

Yeah, pop SR on 3 downed allies, rez all of them safely while all of you are invulnerable for the desired duration. Shadow Refuge would totally be balanced too, right?

I’ve already mentioned that SR would probably be the only skill that may need to be reworked – for rezzing etc.

You say non thieves who have experience. Well, I have plenty of xp in both tPvP and hotjoin. I’m just about r40 now and I can absolutely destroy any thief build with my phantasms no problem.

But the sad thing is that I’m missing out on a lot of other builds because they don’t counter the thief properly. And that’s kitten off. I don’t mind trying out the invulnerable issue. See above – some thieves feel even that’s not enough!

bhagwad.4281:

Zikory.6871:

So if that’s the case would smoke fields and blast finishers equal Invulnerability instead of stealth?

EDIT: If so this would mean any group fight would come down to which teams thieves can keep it up better. Lets do this, I’m in! Perma stealth? pfft Invincible army’s.

An invincible army that can’t do damage and can’t cap. Bring it on and watch as your teammates curse you for losing the cap.

You are wrong, i can still do damage , dodge roll 2 times and blinding power-heartseeker back into my personal “safezone” while you desperetly try to blow all your cooldowns in that 3 second window of me dodge rolling.

Good luck with that.

p.s. i’ll give it a go for a day if u wish, we can have a 1v1 where i mug-backstab-black powder-heartseeker around u for a few hours till u give up and delete the game.

Stealth is working as intended -move along, nothing to see here. Thieves roll as thieves for the surprise/ stealth element. The class wouldn’t be the same if stealth were removed and honestly if you want to complain about stealth because you can’t figure how to counter it even after our damage is in the toilet well- sorry for you. IF by some god awful turn of comedy this was implemented the same set of trolls would be crying about it in a week- guaranteed. Granting invulnerability to the most positional experienced class in the game = epic QQ

Martrim.1078:

bhagwad.4281:

Zikory.6871:

So if that’s the case would smoke fields and blast finishers equal Invulnerability instead of stealth?

EDIT: If so this would mean any group fight would come down to which teams thieves can keep it up better. Lets do this, I’m in! Perma stealth? pfft Invincible army’s.

An invincible army that can’t do damage and can’t cap. Bring it on and watch as your teammates curse you for losing the cap.

You are wrong, i can still do damage , dodge roll 2 times and blinding power-heartseeker back into my personal “safezone” while you desperetly try to blow all your cooldowns in that 3 second window of me dodge rolling.

Good luck with that.

p.s. i’ll give it a go for a day if u wish, we can have a 1v1 where i mug-backstab-black powder-heartseeker around u for a few hours till u give up and delete the game.

Hes referring to the fact that most skills that grant Invulnerability lock your skills. This meaning you wouldn’t be able to attack. If Invulnerability would act as stealth then you would just be able to keep people invulnerable until they attacked. 3s (4s in sPvP) they would be able to be invulnerable again. I can’t say how this would change things in sPvP but it would be very exploitable in WvW.

@bhagwad To your point of losing a cap. This would only be a issue if they everyone stayed invulnerable. If a thief spams it and keeps people from dieing. With some team work they could easily rotate out who is attacking and not under the effect. Thus staying in the cap.

Also it seems your looking at this kitten tPvP perspective and I’m looking at it from a WvW perspective, so our thoughts on the matter will probably differ considering the difference in events that take place in the 2 game modes.

Invulnerably instead of stealth would be ridiculously OP. I don’t imagine anyone would want to make that change.

Mushrooms.6158:

Invulnerably instead of stealth would be ridiculously OP. I don’t imagine anyone would want to make that change.

As a thief, I wouldn’t mind trying it out. Make it a trait so I can either have stealth or invulnerability. :-)

I like that people would rather be able to watch and do nothing than not watch and do something. Says a lot about player psychology. Until the first invuln traited thief goes perma on bunnies and resets every fight with nothing but shadowsteps a single attack and the /laugh emote. I’d rather fight a stealther TBH. I can kill them.

Interesting thought experiment, but fundamentally flawed logically. You’d have to invent an entirely new class if you were to design around short duration temporary invuln.

bhagwad.4281:

But the sad thing is that I’m missing out on a lot of other builds because they don’t counter the thief properly. And that’s kitten off. I don’t mind trying out the invulnerable issue. See above – some thieves feel even that’s not enough!

Okay, how about this. I’ll trade all of my “grants stealth” for all of your “creates clone”

Deal?

Build diversity!

LOL are you kidding me?! I’ll take stackable invulnerability GOD MODE every 3/4 seconds any day over stealth that a monkey can counter thank you very much!

Your experiment is terrible and your premise is hilariously flawed.

PopeUrban.2578:

bhagwad.4281:

But the sad thing is that I’m missing out on a lot of other builds because they don’t counter the thief properly. And that’s kitten off. I don’t mind trying out the invulnerable issue. See above – some thieves feel even that’s not enough!

Okay, how about this. I’ll trade all of my “grants stealth” for all of your “creates clone”

Deal?

Build diversity!

Deal. But I get to keep my phantasms. You can have the clones.

bhagwad.4281:

PopeUrban.2578:

bhagwad.4281:

But the sad thing is that I’m missing out on a lot of other builds because they don’t counter the thief properly. And that’s kitten off. I don’t mind trying out the invulnerable issue. See above – some thieves feel even that’s not enough!

Okay, how about this. I’ll trade all of my “grants stealth” for all of your “creates clone”

Deal?

Build diversity!

Deal. But I get to keep my phantasms. You can have the clones.

Fooled again! Tricky mesmers!

bhagwad.4281:

Many thieves don’t “get” why people hate stealth. Hope this thought experiment will illustrate why.

Thought experiment: Remove stealth and change it to invulnerability instead. Who will complain?

1. Thieves often claim that they have no defense and so they require stealth to survive. So giving them invulnerability for the same duration will solve all their complaints right? Everything remains as before. Invulnerability is lost on dealing damage and provides a water tight defense

Question for thieves: Would you be willing to swap stealth for invulnerability?
Same question for non thieves: Would you prefer to fight an invulnerable thief rather than a stealthed thief:

Prediction: Thieves would prefer stealth over invulnerability. Non thieves would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves rather than stealthed vulnerable ones.

You are comparing apples to oranges. Invulnerability is simply a condition that makes it so you take no damage at all while it is in effect. Stealth does not do that… point of fact is, stealth is the mechanism by which most of a thief’s high end damage is done such as Back-Stab. It is also a mechanism by which a thief gains mobility… Infiltrators strike ect. If you were to give Invulnerability the same limitations such as ends on attack… then you are simply creating a means of escape for the thief rather than a combat/defensive ability. Say invulnerability lasted 3 seconds or until a thief attacks… in order to remain invulnerable, the thief needs to give up ALL attack mechanisms and gains no bonus from doing so… with stealth, the thief loses stealth on attack but there is the chance that the stealth will increase their damage output. You may think, ok then what is the real difference. Take retaliation… when a guardian puts up this boon, a smart attacker will stop attacking. The guardian gains a form of damage mitigation. However, the ability still has the potential to be a damage dealer because if the guardian is attacked, the attacker takes damage. So you see, it is two sided: combat/defense. On invulnerability… some classes that have it have things like reflection as the secondary portion of it or inflict chill ect… so it to, for those classes is combat/defensive. If you make invulnerability for a thief with the same limitations as stealth has currently… then it becomes pure defense and destroys the damage output of the thief… in short the thief becomes better at running away….

Ruggan.4102:

bhagwad.4281:

Many thieves don’t “get” why people hate stealth. Hope this thought experiment will illustrate why.

Thought experiment: Remove stealth and change it to invulnerability instead. Who will complain?

1. Thieves often claim that they have no defense and so they require stealth to survive. So giving them invulnerability for the same duration will solve all their complaints right? Everything remains as before. Invulnerability is lost on dealing damage and provides a water tight defense

Question for thieves: Would you be willing to swap stealth for invulnerability?
Same question for non thieves: Would you prefer to fight an invulnerable thief rather than a stealthed thief:

Prediction: Thieves would prefer stealth over invulnerability. Non thieves would prefer to fight invulnerable thieves rather than stealthed vulnerable ones.

You are comparing apples to oranges. Invulnerability is simply a condition that makes it so you take no damage at all while it is in effect. Stealth does not do that… point of fact is, stealth is the mechanism by which most of a thief’s high end damage is done such as Back-Stab. It is also a mechanism by which a thief gains mobility… Infiltrators strike ect. If you were to give Invulnerability the same limitations such as ends on attack… then you are simply creating a means of escape for the thief rather than a combat/defensive ability. Say invulnerability lasted 3 seconds or until a thief attacks… in order to remain invulnerable, the thief needs to give up ALL attack mechanisms and gains no bonus from doing so… with stealth, the thief loses stealth on attack but there is the chance that the stealth will increase their damage output. You may think, ok then what is the real difference. Take retaliation… when a guardian puts up this boon, a smart attacker will stop attacking. The guardian gains a form of damage mitigation. However, the ability still has the potential to be a damage dealer because if the guardian is attacked, the attacker takes damage. So you see, it is two sided: combat/defense. On invulnerability… some classes that have it have things like reflection as the secondary portion of it or inflict chill ect… so it to, for those classes is combat/defensive. If you make invulnerability for a thief with the same limitations as stealth has currently… then it becomes pure defense and destroys the damage output of the thief… in short the thief becomes better at running away….

Those are good points. I created this thought experiment only because the most common response to those commenting on stealth is that it’s a thief’s only defense and form of damage mitigation since they don’t have boons or high health.

So I thought ok, let’s give them the ultimate defense in the game and see what happens!

Ruggan.4102:

stealth is the … by which a thief gains mobility… Infiltrators strike ect.

IS doesn’t require stealth and is a poor example of “gaining mobility through stealth”. The fact is that mobility and stealth are usually separate defensive mechanisms barring something like Fleet Shadow (which no one uses). Stealth isn’t an innate thief mechanic, nor something required to be mobile or survivable. Stealth is a neat mechanic, and one that should continue to be supported, but too many people see it as a pillar that supports the entire profession instead of just one of many combat options you can specialize in (like traps or venoms).

The fact is that when people use stealth as an escape mechanism, most of the responsibility for that escape actually lies in mobility. A less-mobile target that is stealthed is not difficult to kill, while a you cannot catch that is unstealthed is equally impossible to kill as a target you cannot catch that is stealthed.

Tulisin.6945:

Ruggan.4102:

stealth is the … by which a thief gains mobility… Infiltrators strike ect.

IS doesn’t require stealth and is a poor example of “gaining mobility through stealth”. The fact is that mobility and stealth are usually separate defensive mechanisms barring something like Fleet Shadow (which no one uses). Stealth isn’t an innate thief mechanic, not something required to be mobile or survivable. Stealth is a neat mechanic, and one that should continue to be supported, but too many people see it as a pillar that supports the entire profession instead of just one of many combat options you can specialize in (like traps or venoms).

Never said it was an innate thief mechanic. Simply put forth the fact that stealth is a means of defense and combat for a thief… not only is it the main mechanism by which a thief gains DAMAGE it is also a defensive tool making it a two sided skill.

I would rather fight a invuln thief then a invisible one. People who say “oh you just need skill to beat stealth” really mean “oh you need to be playing the right class to beat stealth”. A melee fighter has no chance. No matter how much skill you have you can’t guess where a stealthed thief is accurately unless you caught him with a skill before he stealthed. Condition builds have no chance, because condition thieves cleanse every time they stealth. That is a cleanse every 4 seconds. The only build that has a good chance are 1-shot glass cannons that can simply kill the thief before they can start doing their dance.

Swapping stealth with invuln wouldn’t fix all of that but at least you could stay on target and not have to bother with targeting and the guessing game, which are annoying, not fun.

Then we are not thieves, were… something else.

Lorelei.3918:

I would rather fight a invuln thief then a invisible one. People who say “oh you just need skill to beat stealth” really mean “oh you need to be playing the right class to beat stealth”. A melee fighter has no chance. No matter how much skill you have you can’t guess where a stealthed thief is accurately unless you caught him with a skill before he stealthed.

This is simply untrue and is highly situational. Melee fighters actually have the best chance of catching and killing a melee thief just due to their wide-arc attacks. P/D thieves are much less predictable in stealth, but having been on both sides of stealth combat many times most thieves move far more predictably than they’d admit while in stealth. This prediction-and-counterprediction meta is good for the game, and an example of a true skill dynamic where better thieves actually learn to move deceptively in stealth. This deception meta goes entirely out the window when people still sit around picking their nose when they lose their fancy auto-locked target due to stealth. Thieves aren’t forced to get any better, because a good number of their opponents just give up and make no attempt to effectively hunt stealthed targets.

Guessing where a melee thief is in stealth is really easy: if they’re trying to disengage they’re probably beelining away from you in the safest direction. If they’re repositioning they’re trying to get behind you at melee range. P/D is a little trickier, but you’ve still got a 900 range bubble around you that they’re unlikely to leave and going P/D has left them far less mobile than if they’d used another set.

To this day I get the majority of my thief kills against stealthed thieves because many thieves have still not been forced to learn how to fight in stealth without being incredibly predictable.

This would be a dream buff. All stealth skills give endure pain buff for would be stealth duration instead of stealth, instead of a revealed debuff there is a “mortal” debuff if we attack while under effects of endure pain, and access to stealth attacks is still granted just like normal. This would be a funny joke for thief players, but I imagine our prey would ragequit for awhile. Believe it or not, the game is not as fun without newbs to school, noobs to troll, and skilled players with which to sharpen our mettle. However it’s nice to dream. Thieves need ambition, it makes us who we are.

Edit: I love fleet shadow, but thief base damage and utility is too low to afford picking up this trait.
Edit 2: this post was meant to be a joke.

If I wanted to run pure rofl stomp then I would. D/P thieves would be near invincible. If I ran a stealth spam build I could keep 50% of my combat time invulnerable. Just seems way over the top. Although maybe there is some sarcasm I am missing.

this idea is silly take 4 thief run around with shadow refuge aoeing them 12 seconds of invulnerability well they just shoot posion field on a hole zerg. there nothing you can do about it. atlest with a stealth in theif you can make a logical guess to where he going if you guess right the thief auto dead or has to run away both being a win for you.

Taobella.6597:

this idea is silly take 4 thief run around with shadow refuge aoeing them 12 seconds of invulnerability well they just shoot posion field on a hole zerg. there nothing you can do about it. atlest with a stealth in theif you can make a logical guess to where he going if you guess right the thief auto dead or has to run away both being a win for you.

What? The idea is you’re not allowed to damage while you’re invulnerable.

The shortbow’s poison field doesn’t deal direct damage, and as such, doesn’t break stealth.

Poison is a status effect given by the field. It does not directly deal any damage and would not break stealth/invuln.

Kajiri.8215:

Poison is a status effect given by the field. It does not directly deal any damage and would not break stealth/invuln.

Ah that way. Yeah that’d be fair. But like I’d mentioned before, SR would probably be the only skill that would need to be reworked for its insanely large AOE effects.

Stealth is meant to be both a defensive and an offensive mechanic. If stealth is replaced with invul, than invul has to be have some kind of offensive capability. You can’t take a class designed around stealth and replace it without reworking some of the stuff.

Then again, an Invul thief will make ppl QQ even worse. Bring a group of thieves, let them rotate in and out of invul for capping. The invul ones drop poison fields and caltrops. Drop ambush traps and Thieves Guilds. Ppl will be swimming in caltrops, poison and thieves. Their sensors will be so overloaded, with all those thieves and cripple, they will be BS-ed. Thieves will change from single roamer to a thief horde.

WvW will then feature stare down wars, as thief hordes meet each other on the field and caltrops dodge while being invul. When out of endurance, they just stare at each other in SR with a whole bunch of Thief npcs fighting around them.

This changes everything, players expect thieves will no longer jump them when they roam outside of a zerg. That is true, because all the thieves are now too busy being in a zerg. Instead they get jumped by some random class, get pwned and come to the forum to QQ of the FT engineer who just owned them.

Just strictly speaking from WvW pov, since i don’t PvP.

bhagwad.4281:

dreadlocked.3794:

bhagwad.4281:

dreadlocked.3794:

C&D chain godmode, also you are invulnerable to be moved out of your SR

Same rules would apply as to stealth – you can’t get invuln for upto 4 seconds after you deal damage.

Till then you’re mine

Well I can wait 3 seconds in invulnerability and then C&D to deal a little damage and continue being invulnerable, if you dodge that doesnt matter i’ll just heal or use a utility to be invulnerable again, and continue dealing 1’5-4k damage every 3 seconds

Since you’re visible I’ll know when to dodge and where you’re going to be. C&D’ing me won’t be that easy. You obviously can’t spam heals because of CD’s. I’ll like to try this and see what happens..

LOL

Then why is dodging CnD hard now? You KNOW WHEN TO DODGE. Did you not learn how to count to 3?

Anyway I would love this. Team up with a bunch of other thieves and just basilisk + CnD focus fire idiots to death in zergs.

Humorless.1573:

bhagwad.4281:

dreadlocked.3794:

bhagwad.4281:

dreadlocked.3794:

C&D chain godmode, also you are invulnerable to be moved out of your SR

Same rules would apply as to stealth – you can’t get invuln for upto 4 seconds after you deal damage.

Till then you’re mine

Well I can wait 3 seconds in invulnerability and then C&D to deal a little damage and continue being invulnerable, if you dodge that doesnt matter i’ll just heal or use a utility to be invulnerable again, and continue dealing 1’5-4k damage every 3 seconds

Since you’re visible I’ll know when to dodge and where you’re going to be. C&D’ing me won’t be that easy. You obviously can’t spam heals because of CD’s. I’ll like to try this and see what happens..

LOL

Then why is dodging CnD hard now? You KNOW WHEN TO DODGE. Did you not learn how to count to 3?

Anyway I would love this. Team up with a bunch of other thieves and just basilisk + CnD focus fire idiots to death in zergs.

not to mention being visible while invincible would allow you to juke out the evades and such anyway, I mean its not like you have to make sure you pull off the combos perfectly because you don’t have any way to reliably prevent damage anymore

What I find funny is you are posting a thieves forum asking for other classes to chime in. Why don’t you replicate your post in every other forum and then you will get the answers you are looking for?

bhagwad.4281:

Olba.5376:

Lol, changing all the skills and traits that we have which currently relate to stealth to be about invulnerability would be hilarious:

• Hide in Shadows: Gain Invulnerable, Regeneration (4s) and cure Bleed, Poison and Burn
• Shadow Refuge: Create a pulsing refuge at the target area that heals allies and makes them invulnerable
• Hidden Killer:100% critical hit chance while invulnerable
• Meld with Shadows: Invulnerable skills last 1 second longer
• Hidden Assassin: Gain might for 15 seconds when you go into invulnerable
• Shadow Protector: When you make an ally invulnerable, they gain regeneration for 5 seconds
• Shadow’s Embrace: Remove one condition every 3 seconds while invulnerable
• Hidden Thief: Stealing grants you 2 seconds of invulnerable
• Shadow’s Rejuvenation: Regenerate health while invulnerable
• Fleet Shadow: Move 50% faster while invulnerable

Please tell me this is a big troll thread.

I’m actually dead serious. I would prefer to fight against an invulnerable thief as opposed to a stealthed one.

Based on non thief feedback this seems to be the case for almost everyone too.

Is there a rationale for invulnerable Thieves? Like maybe they can whip out a bloody great hoplite shield to hide behind? Or they are sporting their own body weight in steel armor? Is there a reason why Thieves should play like Guardians, only better? I mean, aside from how much they frustrate you with all that blinking in and out of view?

The Thief profession is SUPPOSED to be slippery as ^@$#, not a bunker. Other professions are designed to bunker up, Thieves aren’t. They’re quick, greasy, irritating little opportunists that can’t survive a straight up fight. The fact that so many people are whimpering for mommy when they see one slip into stealth, tells me the profession has been designed properly.

Every profession has it’s unique feel, supported by their mechanics. The Thief has that too. Quit trying to turn them into generic versions of everyone else and start learning to deal with them on their terms, the same way you would with Mesmers flooding you with decoys or Rangers kiting your melee-based kitten

Thieves do die. Maybe it’s just players who spend more of their time understanding how they operate and less time whining about it, who are getting those kills.

Stealth is too good, no other profession can drop “target” like the thief except maybe the mesmer. Although I am not good at thief yet but i really love how great thieves are able to maximize stealth potential even though they serve me my butt on a diamond platter.

yiksing.9432:

Stealth is too good, no other profession can drop “target” like the thief except maybe the mesmer. Although I am not good at thief yet but i really love how great thieves are able to maximize stealth potential even though they serve me my butt on a diamond platter.

Yeah. Here’s the thing. Stealth isn’t too good, players can outthink it. Thieves have the lowest tolerance for intesity in the game, so they’re given the ability to blow it off briefly.
There’s a reason you don’t see thieves holding points like every other class in the game. If we could cap in stealth we would, but out alternative defenses are lacking.