Guild Wars 2

Credit goes to the leader of [Teef] for writing this thread.

As we all know, many profession have a place in pvp save warrior and thief. Both have been pushed out of the meta and are lying at the wayside. At this point, I believe reverting some of the nerfs made 2-3 years ago would be the simplest way to put them back into the meta (and undo some of the damage >:c).

Now I cannot speak for warrior. I played with one for 20 levels before deeming it boring. In which case I recommend some knowledgeable warrior write a thread like this for their profession. As for thieves, I expect this thread to get seasoned thieves in the mindset of asking for reversions as I believe it is a healthy direction to aim for for the profession.

As for the fresh meat that cannot get enough of the thief, this thread serves as a glimpse of what thief was and could still be if it wasn’t gutted. These will not be in chronological order btw. Onto the nerfs.

December 10th Nerfs

This was the time where we lost the instant-cast non-stun-breaking ability of Sword 2’s Shadow Return and more than half of our initiative gain capabilities.

Heartseeker Nerf

Took a damage nerf and thresholds were changed from 100%/66%/33% to 100%/50%/25%.

Pistol Whip and Basi Venom Nerf

Pistol Whip had it’s damage reduces while Basi became a breakable stun.

October 22nd Nerfs

Most of the changes were bug fixes but the highlights here were Assassin’s Signet’s Active providing a single hit 50% more damage and a buff where Flanking Strike (S/D) was unblockable. Flanking Strike also was not split into two attacks where the second attack is required to hit to gain access to the second attack, like it is now.

Dancing Dagger Nerf

Dancing Dagger damage reduced by half. Also a few skills had damage reductions in pvp only. :c

Venom Nerf

Venoms used to not lose a charge when an attack was negated. They do now!

CnD Nerf

Lost the ability to stack stealth on walls in WvW.

April 30th Notes

Fun Fact: Did you know Trick Shot used to be heat seeking? Smoke screen also destroyed unblockable missiles. :c

Shadow Return Nerf

No more infinite range for returning.

June 25th Minor Nerfs

Mostly initiative cost increases, range decreases and other ineffective decisions. Shadow Trap gets a maximum duration of 2 minutes the next patch.

Other miscellaneous things you’ll not find in patch notes (ninja nerfs yay):

• Caltrops precast used to be 1/2s with the same animation as Blinding Tuft.
• Daggerstorm’s daggers used to be as deadly as pre-nerf Dancing Dagger and the amount of daggers thrown were around 3x as much as it does now. Players anywhere near you would have gotten hit multiple times, but now there are instances where nobody gets hit at all.
• Backstab had an overall damage reduction. There is no record of the change but there were many reports of it’s damage being reduced from 20k hits to around 12k, probably due to various nerfs that allowed thieves to attain such high damage like Assassin’s Signet. With the bunker metas, that damage dropped to ~6k and eventually lost favor.
• Shortbow got gutted. Not only was the overall range reduced from 1200 to 900 but 3 of the skills got destroyed. Disabling Shot had it’s evasion range and duration cut in half. Choking Gas used to not deal damage and the poison applied was much longer per pulse than what it is now. Then and Now. And Infiltrator’s Arrow started sucking with anet introduced pathing limitations.

If there are any others I’ve missed, please contribute.

Personally, the only nerf I thought was needed was the damage to Daggerstorm. It used to be the only Elite anyone would take specifically because it would kill anyone nearby. The daggers were numerous and powerful and could kill a small group like nothing. Example. Nowadays I have second thoughts. But hopefully some nostalgia was had and that your guys are gearing towards convincing anet to take back some of the things that made this profession usable.

Thanks for reading and happy Teefing!

Credit goes to the leader of [Teef] for writing this thread.

“Black Powder:
Increased the interval between pulses to 2 seconds. Reduced the duration of blind to 2 seconds.”

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-September-9-2014

Considering how small the AOE is, I’d like to see it pulse every second again.

Some of the changes I suggest converting:
“December 10th Nerfs

This was the time where we lost the instant-cast non-stun-breaking ability of Sword 2’s Shadow Return and more than half of our initiative gain capabilities."

→I would like to see this, but keep in mind that this will allow vast access to safe stomps which may be undesirable, I do like the element of teleporting in and out while in fights as a damage avoiding mechanic, I love that playstyle, maybe u can do something about both of those things!?
Either way I’m not sure if Pistol Whip could see some damage increase, it depends on where the meta is going, the only problem I’m having atm is with cele tempests or druid which can outsustain my pressure, keep in mind that a well landed Pistol Whip with pulmonary impact is that more rewarding than a plain dmg increase.
If the instant cast on Sword #2 is there I wouldnt say so.

“Dancing Dagger Nerf

Dancing Dagger damage reduced by half. Also a few skills had damage reductions in pvp only. :c"
→This skill seems pretty week atm and niche at that.

“Venom Nerf

Venoms used to not lose a charge when an attack was negated. They do now!"

→Maybe condi thief could be a thing? atm bleed is the only reliable source and its way to long for it to be effectice, also there is no proper condi auto.

“Flanking Strike (S/D) was unblockable. Flanking Strike also was not split into two attacks where the second attack is required to hit to gain access to the second attack, like it is now.”

→This skill could use some buffs, if you run S/D you’re ability to burst is non existent.
Not saying it has to be there but giving this set some specific flavour would help.
Perhaps this could be a more attrisive set contrary to S/P which is more bursty.
Think of plundering you’re foe as you get stronger.

Shortbow is pretty bad as it is, combat wise, yet It is still the one choice for thieves in pvp due to mobility, which is sad cos I’d like to see some pistol 1#+2# changes to make P/P more viable. Unload is good atm.

Lastly, D/P is pretty bad atm, the dmg is so crappy why would I bother going stealth and back stabbing when staff is so much better while having nearly the same dmg output. 6k sure is bad, but I wouldn’t want an easy way to 1 shot people from stealth thoug!

did you see the last ‘balance patch’ notes?

What about “infusion of shadow”? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infusion_of_Shadow
It is out of the game for a while now and helped “CnD” to only cost 4 ini instead of 6.
Was a big nerf for any d/d users, would really like to see this back.
At the December 10th notes they nerfed it, and then last June just removed it all together.

Oh i assure you, you don’t want to open that heartseeker gate.

C&D also have a Damage reduction on PvP.

Mug no longer Crit (tough I do prefer the extra health that was added as compensation, somewhat).

Personally, D/D had all kinds of nerfs back when thiefs were broken. Would be great to get something rolled back.
If you stop to think about it, all 5 skills of D/D got multiple nerfs around thief history, including auto attack.

D/D could get some damage, and Shadow Return could have its range extended to at least 3.000 units. (reason it got nerfed was because of WvW and not because of PvP).

Either way, we can only dream

I personally would rever Pistol Whip, S/D initiative changes and Sword 2#. This would be enough to get sword back in meta thanks to Daredevil traits.

Revert all nerfs made to SA on June 23.
(You can still CnD on walls in wvw, btw, not on all though)

ETA: It’s Christmas, right?
Anyway; I think it’s very hard to tell what thief needs right now as long as the overall balance of the game is a mess.
I’m running with SE, this minor healing tingy and CiS – and I don’t do enough damage (tongue in cheek as the overall damage is still something I don’t like) against thieves who took DA, CS/DrD, T – but I can’t heal as I can’t take SRej. So I feel as even in itself thief isn’t balanced. If I don’t take SA though I die to condi builds nearly instantly. Still SE isn’t as good as it was before June 23th.
I really got used to the -25% while stealthed – it’s nice to have when on siege – I even like the falling damage trait – but the stuff that has been taken from that line was more useful by far. So, I’m curious what anet is going to do and I hope I can play again and don’t have to run away from everybody.

They need to remove the activation time on Withdraw and Roll for iniaitive. They claim it’s only .1 second’s. i don’t believe that though.

A hilarious story: so the other day i seen a DH trapper on point. not a big deal, Flanking strike into INf signet (which basically means you port while in an evade frame) Than spam Roll for inaitive (get’s you out of traps).
yeah so banging on roll for inaitive all through the evade from FS, but it didn’t matter. in .1 seconds (activation time) he had taken me from 18k life to 0. now that hilarious part is even at launch d/d thief’s burst would still take longer then that. (Steal + cnd + BS)

Asking for changes on thiefs is pointless, the thief and warrior dev seemed to be the only two dev’s that tried to balance. the rest just aimed for hur dur power creep. don’t get me wrong i would love sword 2 back. as that added a ton of variety. but it’s unlikely….

Edit: had inf strike instead of inf signet.

A lot of these changes were warranted is the thing.

Big problem is the rest of the classes in the game are just completely busted and the thief’s design doesn’t pair well with them.

Mug critting, Dancing Dagger’s old damage, IoS’s initiative gain, wall-CnD’s, SA’s might gain, and infinite return/long duration on the trap caused huge problems. Mug was one-shotting people. Dancing Dagger was one-shotting groups of two players, IoS provided infinite heartseekers. Wall-based CnD made it absurdly frustrating to maintain a WP on a keep and a good thief could maintain it permanently. SA was giving more damage than DA while camping invisibility and defensive bonuses. Dagger storm… someone above posted a video. Even infiltrator’s return was really broken because it could still be used while stunned while also removing a condition. An immob + stun lockdown combo made by another player was potentially instantly negated on a weapon skill that would run a lot of builds two utilities.

IReturn could be made with no cast if the skill couldn’t be activated while stunned like it used to be.

A lot of these were extremely abusable/abused. I’m not saying that the thief should stay weak, but I don’t agree these are the mechanics the thief should be pushed into for the sake of arbitrary buffs in the name of balance. The thief needs a lot of reworking across the board to make its build options much more solid while not being overbearing.

DeceiverX.8361:

SA was giving more damage than DA while camping invisibility and defensive bonuses.

No, unless it has been nerfed before I started thief.
The max stacks I could get with runes of strength on my own – and with Hide in Shadows and Blinding Powder was 14 for a split second – the usual after stealth camping was 12. When I wasn’t stealthed for a longer time I had around 6-8 stacks of might.
I was at ~400 power less than someone who traited full DA, I was running 06620 – even someone with 26600 wouldn’t be as strong or even stronger than a DA thief.
I think that calculation was from before might was nerfed. But it should still be possible to find the max power a DA and a SA thief could have on their own.

ETA: Screenshot – That was the max power my thief could have. The screen is from November 14th 2014. Food was usually Plate of Truffle Steak, utility: Superior Sharpening Stone – the 25 stacks are Bloodlust and also the guard stacks, of course.
Build, like I said: 06620, Armor Valk, Rune of Strength, 2 trinkets valk+ zerker, rest zerker, all weapons zerker – everything Ascended.
Edit²: He’s still got an exotic zerker backpiece at that point – so I was wrong about “everything ascended”
Edit³: I can remember that I got into an argument with someone who claimed that SA thieves are kitten and that was when I calculated all that might gives a SA thief- the ~400 is what I remember – but I might remember it wrong and I can’t remember the former traits in DA as I never really used that traitline.

just merge preparedness into class itself (extra ini.).. so we can play somethin like Dare/DA/Crit or Dare/DA/SA without having to take trickery. and that would do it for me. but anyway… all hope is lost with anet. not even expecting any changes to thief. they literally took it and threw into the trashcan.

Jana.6831:

DeceiverX.8361:

SA was giving more damage than DA while camping invisibility and defensive bonuses.

No, unless it has been nerfed before I started thief.
The max stacks I could get with runes of strength on my own – and with Hide in Shadows and Blinding Powder was 14 for a split second – the usual after stealth camping was 12. When I wasn’t stealthed for a longer time I had around 6-8 stacks of might.
I was at ~400 power less than someone who traited full DA, I was running 06620 – even someone with 26600 wouldn’t be as strong or even stronger than a DA thief.
I think that calculation was from before might was nerfed. But it should still be possible to find the max power a DA and a SA thief could have on their own.

ETA: Screenshot – That was the max power my thief could have. The screen is from November 14th 2014. Food was usually Plate of Truffle Steak, utility: Superior Sharpening Stone – the 25 stacks are Bloodlust and also the guard stacks, of course.
Build, like I said: 06620, Armor Valk, Rune of Strength, 2 trinkets valk+ zerker, rest zerker, all weapons zerker – everything Ascended.
Edit²: He’s still got an exotic zerker backpiece at that point – so I was wrong about “everything ascended”
Edit³: I can remember that I got into an argument with someone who claimed that SA thieves are kitten and that was when I calculated all that might gives a SA thief- the ~400 is what I remember – but I might remember it wrong and I can’t remember the former traits in DA as I never really used that traitline.

You’re comparing DA and SA vs CS and SA. SA given the might had objectively more power than DA.
12 stacks of might equates to what would have been 420 power. DA itself granted 300 from the trait line and no more, as DA had no source of might, and this was before DA had executioner as a bonus damage modifier, and Dagger Training was made baseline/removed, pitting 120 power vs 10% damage. Unless building signets, the might gain would scale better against both squishier and tankier targets. SA was factually dealing more damage than DA while not considering the damage from mug.

Now, with the 300 power gone from traits, SA given such reverts would provide an even bigger advantage in terms of raw damage. A DA/CS/SA thief could be easily capable of reaching backstabs well over 30k while retaining almost all the defensive benefits a thief has now as DA/CS/TR.

DeceiverX.8361:

Jana.6831:

DeceiverX.8361:

SA was giving more damage than DA while camping invisibility and defensive bonuses.

No, unless it has been nerfed before I started thief.
The max stacks I could get with runes of strength on my own – and with Hide in Shadows and Blinding Powder was 14 for a split second – the usual after stealth camping was 12. When I wasn’t stealthed for a longer time I had around 6-8 stacks of might.
I was at ~400 power less than someone who traited full DA, I was running 06620 – even someone with 26600 wouldn’t be as strong or even stronger than a DA thief.
I think that calculation was from before might was nerfed. But it should still be possible to find the max power a DA and a SA thief could have on their own.

ETA: Screenshot – That was the max power my thief could have. The screen is from November 14th 2014. Food was usually Plate of Truffle Steak, utility: Superior Sharpening Stone – the 25 stacks are Bloodlust and also the guard stacks, of course.
Build, like I said: 06620, Armor Valk, Rune of Strength, 2 trinkets valk+ zerker, rest zerker, all weapons zerker – everything Ascended.
Edit²: He’s still got an exotic zerker backpiece at that point – so I was wrong about “everything ascended”
Edit³: I can remember that I got into an argument with someone who claimed that SA thieves are kitten and that was when I calculated all that might gives a SA thief- the ~400 is what I remember – but I might remember it wrong and I can’t remember the former traits in DA as I never really used that traitline.

You’re comparing DA and SA vs CS and SA. SA given the might had objectively more power than DA.
12 stacks of might equates to what would have been 420 power. DA itself granted 300 from the trait line and no more, as DA had no source of might, and this was before DA had executioner as a bonus damage modifier, and Dagger Training was made baseline/removed, pitting 120 power vs 10% damage. Unless building signets, the might gain would scale better against both squishier and tankier targets. SA was factually dealing more damage than DA while not considering the damage from mug.

Now, with the 300 power gone from traits, SA given such reverts would provide an even bigger advantage in terms of raw damage. A DA/CS/SA thief could be easily capable of reaching backstabs well over 30k while retaining almost all the defensive benefits a thief has now as DA/CS/TR.

DA has got revelaed training and a lot of damage modifiers, trickery alone gives a 15% damage increase – all those who one shotted people in wvw never ran SA, you as well, so I guess the might boost wasn’t as important as you make it out to be.

- I’m pretty sure RT didn’t exist when the might from SA did. Also, RT-stabbing is/was borderline impossible/overly-risky and something people only did for montage videos. Executioner and even Panic Strike were considered better; particularly for Heartseeker Heroes. Remember that Executioner was also in the CS line. DA’s only damage modifiers used to be Exposed Weakness and Dagger Training, and those damage modifiers like I said were offset similarly to the 120 extra might depending on the build. With endgame gear not being a prominent, either, the power was substantially better as well.

- Most people building one-shot builds actually did run SA because it gave more damage than DA. It’s effectively the same thing as signets without needing to cast signets. Damage wasn’t over the top because CS didn’t get the damage buffs until later, and executioner was usually not taken over HK unless like in my previous build which relied on a sigil of intelligence, but this had huge escape problems, which is why I dropped it for HK and moved to an offhand sword for pre-casted IS’s for a return point after the burst is over.

Edit: Nope, HA did exist during RT. It was the next balancing iteration that removed HA. That said, at the release of RT, HA applied might for 15s and not 10, and was later nerfed because of even bigger discrepancies.

Bit too early guys, the big balance patch will probably be in Feb. and I would think that there will be a big announcement about the massive balance changes that are to come.

Save your finger energy till then.

DeceiverX.8361:

- I’m pretty sure RT didn’t exist when the might from SA did. Also, RT-stabbing is/was borderline impossible/overly-risky and something people only did for montage videos. Executioner and even Panic Strike were considered better; particularly for Heartseeker Heroes. Remember that Executioner was also in the CS line. DA’s only damage modifiers used to be Exposed Weakness and Dagger Training, and those damage modifiers like I said were offset similarly to the 120 extra might depending on the build. With endgame gear not being a prominent, either, the power was substantially better as well.

- Most people building one-shot builds actually did run SA because it gave more damage than DA. It’s effectively the same thing as signets without needing to cast signets. Damage wasn’t over the top because CS didn’t get the damage buffs until later, and executioner was usually not taken over HK unless like in my previous build which relied on a sigil of intelligence, but this had huge escape problems, which is why I dropped it for HK and moved to an offhand sword for pre-casted IS’s for a return point after the burst is over.

It did. And it was just an example about the damage modifiers in DA.
No one ran SA, they all ran DA and CS and used the might they got from sigils in CS.
It’s not optimal to blow all your utilities to camp in stealth, like I did for 12 stacks of might. A SA thief had a bit less damage than a DA thief, but only after camping stealth which effectively only happened in a long fight – also it depended on the rune – it wasn’t the build alone.
I still don’t think that the removal of might from that line is justified.

DeceiverX.8361:

A lot of these were extremely abusable/abused. I’m not saying that the thief should stay weak, but I don’t agree these are the mechanics the thief should be pushed into for the sake of arbitrary buffs in the name of balance. The thief needs a lot of reworking across the board to make its build options much more solid while not being overbearing.

I dont agree with this kind of argument.

have you ever saw any class not using their standard broken tactics because of pity or anything?

Have you ever saw Warriors not abusing Shield Bash + Executioner when it was the thing?
Have you ever saw Warriors not spamming rush + quickness + 100b back in the day?
Have you ever saw turret engies not spamming elites left and right when they could slaughter everyone at SoloQ?
Have you ever saw a Guardian not bringing shouts when bunker Guardian was pretty much unkillable until engies got buffed?
Have you ever saw any Necro, Engie or elementarist not using divine amulet when they could stack might like tards?

Every class always abused their best options in the game. This is what means to be competitive.

You forgot some

Backstab received a special pvp damage nerf.

Dancing dagger used to be able bounce between the same targets. That was nerfed to dagger hitting only unique targets. Paired with the damage nerf the skill which once was great for taking down zerging baddies is now trash tier.

Stealth used to stack up to 30 seconds by spamming cluster bomb into smoke screen, now its capped at 15 seconds.

SoulSin.5682:

DeceiverX.8361:

A lot of these were extremely abusable/abused. I’m not saying that the thief should stay weak, but I don’t agree these are the mechanics the thief should be pushed into for the sake of arbitrary buffs in the name of balance. The thief needs a lot of reworking across the board to make its build options much more solid while not being overbearing.

I dont agree with this kind of argument.

have you ever saw any class not using their standard broken tactics because of pity or anything?

Have you ever saw Warriors not abusing Shield Bash + Executioner when it was the thing?
Have you ever saw Warriors not spamming rush + quickness + 100b back in the day?
Have you ever saw turret engies not spamming elites left and right when they could slaughter everyone at SoloQ?
Have you ever saw any Necro, Engie or elementarist not using divine amulet when they could stack might like tards?

Every class always abused their best options in the game. This is what means to be competitive.

…abusing shield bash-evis?..abusing..?abusing?..what..i don’t even…
spaming frenzy rush 100blade..?what..?…what……………………………………………….what?!
and, engi rifle celestial didn’t stack might..

Riccochet is no longer accessible which basically gutted P/P.

Not sure when it happened but SB Cluster Bomb/Detonate Cluster used to travel much faster, was very spammable and actually deadly when inside the right field. That attack is relatively useless now as it is too slow to be effective.

CnD works on doors/walls still… they fix it, they break it, they fix it, they break it. CnD should not work off inanimate objects but when it misses it should use less initiative.

PS: Pistol Whip is fine and works very well in the current meta. SB Choking Gas needs a direct damage modifier and I would also add Caltrops to that list. Assassins Signet nerf was needed… holy crap was that OP.

In response to title, its been a good time to revert the nerfs for a very long time. Thief hasn’t all the suddent fallen off, its been doing so for a long time and only a handful of people have managed to keep its use around.

Thief hasn’t been an optimal choice in anything for sometime now, mobility hardly meant anything once people opened their eyes and realized, “all (s)he does is run and decap….”

This needs to be higher up as most of the mentioned nerfs are not relevant for today’s version of the game.