The REAL problem behind bursts

The REAL problem behind bursts

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Posted by: Galandil.9641

Galandil.9641

Ok, the forum is clogged with alot of whines about BS overpowered, “he killed me pressing 2 buttons”, etc.

But, at least 99% of the times, these whines relies on the actual skill that made the damage, and never in understanding what could be the problem that particular skill… if ever there was a problem with a particular skill.

Imo, the problem is NOT in the burst dmg of BS (or any other single skill), but is in how are handled the “+X% on damage” boosts given by skills/traits.

Let’s take this simple build for example: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQJAoYlUmKOHfS6E/5Ex2jdKUe6VgsaPoZLhJA;ToAg0CnowxgjAHLOOck4MKYSA

DO NOT COMMENT ABOUT THE BUILD, I took it just to make the example.

Regarding the “+X% damage”, we have:

- Signet of Sup Force: +5% damage;
- Dagger Training: +5% damage;
- Exposed Weakness: +10% dmg if target is under a condition;
- First Strikes: +10% dmg if ini is 6 or higher;
- Executioner: +20% dmg if target has <50% of total HPs;
- Assassin Signet: +50% if activated.

Now, one would think that all these damage modifiers would add up, and then they’d be applied to the actual “base dmg” (i.e. Power*Weapon Damage*Skill Coefficient/Armor) so, always following the example, we’d get a total of +110% dmg if all are active at the same time. That one, however, would be completely wrong!

The way that game uses these dmg modifiers is this: all “fixed” modifiers are summed up (in our case, only Dagger Training and Sigil of Sup Force, +10%), then all the other conditional modifiers are applied multiplicating every modifier with the others. In our example, we would get: 1.1*1.1*1.1*1.2*1.5=2.3958 -> +139.58%, almost 30% more than the “summed up” modifiers.

Of course, this effect is amplified in case we inflict a crit. The Crit Dmg of this build is 38, so a critical multiplies the actual damage by 1.88:

- In the first case, with +110% damage, we’d get 2.1*1.88=3.948 -> +294.8% total modifier to the base dmg;
- In the second case, with +139.58% dmg, we’d get 2.3958*1.88=4.504104 -> +350.5% total modifier to base dmg.

If a player uses BS, with Power at 2140 and Wpn Dmg 981 (the max for dagger), against a target with 2200 Armor, his base damage would be 2140*981*2.405/2200 = 2295.

In the 1st case, he’d get a total dmg of 2295 * 2.1 = 4820, with crit 9062.
In the 2nd case, he’d get 2295 * 2.3958 = 5498, with crit 10336 (14% more than the 1st case).

If we put in the tray even C&D, we have 2140*981*1.624/2200 = 1550 for base dmg. Then:
1) 1550 * 2.1 = 3255, with crit 6119;
2) 1550 * 2.3958 = 3713, with crit 6980.

And don’t forget that C&D applies 3 stack of Vuln., which are included (summed) to the base +10% for Dagger Training and Sup Sigil of Force, so we get a dmg modifier of 1.13*1.1*1.1*1.2*1.5 = 2.46114 (so, you see, that +3% from Vulnerability has become a +6.534% coupled to the other modifiers!), so BS now inflicts:

1) 2295 * 2.13 = 4888, with crit 9190;
2) 2295 * 2.46114 = 5648, with crit 10618.

The grand total from these 2 skills is:

1) 15309
2) 17598 (and this is how now the dmg mods work)

Someone could say that these figures are too high the same, and I can, to a certain degree, agree with him, but the problem about this combo is NOT in Backstab, but in the too high SC of C&D (seriously, a skill that stealths and inflicts 3 stacks of Vuln has a SC of 1.624?).

So, imo, these are the solutions atm:

1) All dmg modifiers should add up no matter what, and then they’d be applied to the base damage. This would give us two things: a) less damage overall from stacking modifiers and b) less headache when studying builds.
2) Tone down the SC of C&D, and bring up again the SCs of the other weapons which, atm, are laughable, damage inflicted wise, to the Daggers (both main and off hand).

The REAL problem behind bursts

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Posted by: Knyx.5926

Knyx.5926

meh, Just take away the damage of CnD but make it stealth you regardless of a successful hit or not, maybe 1 less ini cost too.

The REAL problem behind bursts

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Posted by: Blazer Hellsing.9184

Blazer Hellsing.9184

Atleast 70% of these “OP” threads are from WvW experience which is gear imbalance to the max I wouldn’t take these threads serious if I were you.

Main: Thief
Alts: Warrior, Necromancer, Mesmer, Elementalist (bunker)

The REAL problem behind bursts

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Posted by: Bombul.2506

Bombul.2506

Ok, the forum is clogged with alot of whines about BS overpowered, “he killed me pressing 2 buttons”, etc.

But, at least 99% of the times, these whines relies on the actual skill that made the damage, and never in understanding what could be the problem that particular skill… if ever there was a problem with a particular skill.

Imo, the problem is NOT in the burst dmg of BS (or any other single skill), but is in how are handled the “+X% on damage” boosts given by skills/traits.

Let’s take this simple build for example: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQJAoYlUmKOHfS6E/5Ex2jdKUe6VgsaPoZLhJA;ToAg0CnowxgjAHLOOck4MKYSA

DO NOT COMMENT ABOUT THE BUILD, I took it just to make the example.

Regarding the “+X% damage”, we have:

- Signet of Sup Force: +5% damage;
- Dagger Training: +5% damage;
- Exposed Weakness: +10% dmg if target is under a condition;
- First Strikes: +10% dmg if ini is 6 or higher;
- Executioner: +20% dmg if target has <50% of total HPs;
- Assassin Signet: +50% if activated.

Now, one would think that all these damage modifiers would add up, and then they’d be applied to the actual “base dmg” (i.e. Power*Weapon Damage*Skill Coefficient/Armor) so, always following the example, we’d get a total of +110% dmg if all are active at the same time. That one, however, would be completely wrong!

The way that game uses these dmg modifiers is this: all “fixed” modifiers are summed up (in our case, only Dagger Training and Sigil of Sup Force, +10%), then all the other conditional modifiers are applied multiplicating every modifier with the others. In our example, we would get: 1.1*1.1*1.1*1.2*1.5=2.3958 -> +139.58%, almost 30% more than the “summed up” modifiers.

Of course, this effect is amplified in case we inflict a crit. The Crit Dmg of this build is 38, so a critical multiplies the actual damage by 1.88:

- In the first case, with +110% damage, we’d get 2.1*1.88=3.948 -> +294.8% total modifier to the base dmg;
- In the second case, with +139.58% dmg, we’d get 2.3958*1.88=4.504104 -> +350.5% total modifier to base dmg.

If a player uses BS, with Power at 2140 and Wpn Dmg 981 (the max for dagger), against a target with 2200 Armor, his base damage would be 2140*981*2.405/2200 = 2295.

In the 1st case, he’d get a total dmg of 2295 * 2.1 = 4820, with crit 9062.
In the 2nd case, he’d get 2295 * 2.3958 = 5498, with crit 10336 (14% more than the 1st case).

If we put in the tray even C&D, we have 2140*981*1.624/2200 = 1550 for base dmg. Then:
1) 1550 * 2.1 = 3255, with crit 6119;
2) 1550 * 2.3958 = 3713, with crit 6980.

And don’t forget that C&D applies 3 stack of Vuln., which are included (summed) to the base +10% for Dagger Training and Sup Sigil of Force, so we get a dmg modifier of 1.13*1.1*1.1*1.2*1.5 = 2.46114 (so, you see, that +3% from Vulnerability has become a +6.534% coupled to the other modifiers!), so BS now inflicts:

1) 2295 * 2.13 = 4888, with crit 9190;
2) 2295 * 2.46114 = 5648, with crit 10618.

The grand total from these 2 skills is:

1) 15309
2) 17598 (and this is how now the dmg mods work)

Someone could say that these figures are too high the same, and I can, to a certain degree, agree with him, but the problem about this combo is NOT in Backstab, but in the too high SC of C&D (seriously, a skill that stealths and inflicts 3 stacks of Vuln has a SC of 1.624?).

So, imo, these are the solutions atm:

1) All dmg modifiers should add up no matter what, and then they’d be applied to the base damage. This would give us two things: a) less damage overall from stacking modifiers and b) less headache when studying builds.
2) Tone down the SC of C&D, and bring up again the SCs of the other weapons which, atm, are laughable, damage inflicted wise, to the Daggers (both main and off hand).

Well done sir. Thank you for the lesson.

The REAL problem behind bursts

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Posted by: Lan.1968

Lan.1968

I didn’t finish it, but I’m sure you have a point.