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Posted by: Phoenixfudge.5290

Phoenixfudge.5290

Stealth attacks get one attempt. ONE ATTEMPT to land that Backstab, one attempt to land that Sneak Attack, one attempt to land that Tactical Strike, one attempt to land that Surprise Shot.

Whether or not that attack lands or misses, your stealth ends.

Revealed debuff is lowered by 2 seconds to balance.

Edit: Okay okay, one attempt across the board is too harsh. The end goal here is to force thieves to time and position their stealth attacks instead of the current system where they are able to spam stealth skill 1 without any discretion besides how much stealth time they have left. Perhaps, lower initiative cost for all weapon skill 5 to compensate further? Or maybe make it so only blocked attacks reveal, evades and blinds don’t count. How about CnD triggering stealth on block? All great suggestions to consider.

Also yes, I think a shield block skill being only effective from the front is a great idea. At the moment, a shield stance is practically a free 3 second invincibility.

Keep the suggestions coming.

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(edited by Phoenixfudge.5290)

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Posted by: MarauderShields.6830

MarauderShields.6830

fair enough. IF we can also agree that CnD triggers stealth on blocked/evaded attacks for compensation.

Former running-really-fast-man. Now proud member of Revenant clan.

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Posted by: Azawrath.7304

Azawrath.7304

Also I want my backstab to hit MY target, not the clone, pet, or minion right next to it.

Azawrath the Silent – Thief
Primi Agminis Legio [PAL]
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Posted by: MatthijsB.4731

MatthijsB.4731

Also I want the bug fixed that makes you use your stealth attack after you use a skill.

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Posted by: krendian.9206

krendian.9206

i would actually gladly take this “balance” if it would stop everyone from complaining about the thief stealth even though its basically our only defense mechanism.

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Posted by: Karolis.4261

Karolis.4261

Whats up with all the kitten s screening their played time and pvp rank (lol)

PvP hero Valentin in action!
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Posted by: Carpboy.7145

Carpboy.7145

If revealed was just 1sec people would just cry even more


The Use of the Word ‘Cheese’
Lyss The Shadow
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Posted by: Viking Jorun.5413

Viking Jorun.5413

2500 hours and rank 37 isn’t much to brag about. Farming Skyhammer you could have gotten there in mere days, and even without it and playing semi-casually it would only take a couple of months. Rank does not ensue authority on balance. Sorry to be “that guy”, but you’re obviously out of touch with PvP if you don’t realize that blind outlasts stealth, shield stance and endure pain outlast stealth, there are mass AoE blinds everywhere on point, and thief is the only one who can quickly take down a spirit ranger who does have AoE blind access on sun spirit.

The fact is that there’s too much going on for this to make any effective balance at all, because players would simly start taking plenty of aegis/blinds/evade spam and thief would immediately be shut out of PvP. Until they fix the rest of the game, make backstab/sneak attack/tactical strike unblockable and thief immune to blind while in stealth, I don’t see this ever being a viable option to “balance” the thief. ArenaNet simply isn’t this misguided as to destroy a profession with one adjustment to a skill/stealth.

I also see that you’re swapped to shortbow for this screenshot, and I highly doubt that you run anything but S/P with little access to stealth (utilities) due to your simple demands to change a function without seeking the repercussions and consequences. On the off-chance that you do run D/P, think about these things before you go and post them on the forums, and at least explain to people (and more importantly the devs) how this could impact the game and class, because it would break the thief on all but S/P.

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Posted by: MIrra.3604

MIrra.3604

2500 hours and rank 37 isn’t much to brag about. Farming Skyhammer you could have gotten there in mere days, and even without it and playing semi-casually it would only take a couple of months. Rank does not ensue authority on balance. Sorry to be “that guy”, but you’re obviously out of touch with PvP if you don’t realize that blind outlasts stealth, shield stance and endure pain outlast stealth, there are mass AoE blinds everywhere on point, and thief is the only one who can quickly take down a spirit ranger who does have AoE blind access on sun spirit.

The fact is that there’s too much going on for this to make any effective balance at all, because players would simly start taking plenty of aegis/blinds/evade spam and thief would immediately be shut out of PvP. Until they fix the rest of the game, make backstab/sneak attack/tactical strike unblockable and thief immune to blind while in stealth, I don’t see this ever being a viable option to “balance” the thief. ArenaNet simply isn’t this misguided as to destroy a profession with one adjustment to a skill/stealth.

I also see that you’re swapped to shortbow for this screenshot, and I highly doubt that you run anything but S/P with little access to stealth (utilities) due to your simple demands to change a function without seeking the repercussions and consequences. On the off-chance that you do run D/P, think about these things before you go and post them on the forums, and at least explain to people (and more importantly the devs) how this could impact the game and class, because it would break the thief on all but S/P.

Sorry to be “that guy” but you’re out of touch with how balancing should work. If an enemy stealth and you use a defensive ability such as endure pain or shield block, why should the thief get a free hit? What you don’t understand is risk vs reward.

FYI – I see nothing wrong with his utilities and heal. Withdraw is one of the best heals the thief has. He is also stealth heavy since he has BP and SR. S/P thiefs usually take IS for the extra port. Regarding D/P, this ends stealth stacking as the second HS will reveal you. If you want to stack stealth, you have to time it right before stealth ends to HS again. I like it!

Regarding the OP suggestion, I see nothing wrong with it. It punish thief that just spam stealth attack over and over again until it hit instead of timing your attack. I do agree with others that the hit should be more reliable. If you can’t survive 2 secs outside of stealth, holy kitten l2p.

(edited by MIrra.3604)

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Posted by: Dagins.5163

Dagins.5163

Again this thread…

Okay, then remove revealed and buff damage of all stealth attacks by 50% to compensate. Then you can counter half of my total damage output by pressing a button, in many cases randomly. I foresee people would just move to evade spam builds.

But seriously, I have no problem protecting myself from backstabs when an enemy is already in stealth. I would even dare to say, mostly I damage my opponent more than they do, when they try to position themselves for a backstab.

Signed, level 1 alt

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Posted by: Seth.4927

Seth.4927

In my opinion, I’d accept to lose stealth in case of the enemy blocking/dodging, but adding revealed on top of that would make it basically impossible to ever hit some common WvW builds such as PU mesmer with a Backstab.

Roker
Tarnished Coast

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Posted by: Viking Jorun.5413

Viking Jorun.5413

2500 hours and rank 37 isn’t much to brag about. Farming Skyhammer you could have gotten there in mere days, and even without it and playing semi-casually it would only take a couple of months. Rank does not ensue authority on balance. Sorry to be “that guy”, but you’re obviously out of touch with PvP if you don’t realize that blind outlasts stealth, shield stance and endure pain outlast stealth, there are mass AoE blinds everywhere on point, and thief is the only one who can quickly take down a spirit ranger who does have AoE blind access on sun spirit.

The fact is that there’s too much going on for this to make any effective balance at all, because players would simly start taking plenty of aegis/blinds/evade spam and thief would immediately be shut out of PvP. Until they fix the rest of the game, make backstab/sneak attack/tactical strike unblockable and thief immune to blind while in stealth, I don’t see this ever being a viable option to “balance” the thief. ArenaNet simply isn’t this misguided as to destroy a profession with one adjustment to a skill/stealth.

I also see that you’re swapped to shortbow for this screenshot, and I highly doubt that you run anything but S/P with little access to stealth (utilities) due to your simple demands to change a function without seeking the repercussions and consequences. On the off-chance that you do run D/P, think about these things before you go and post them on the forums, and at least explain to people (and more importantly the devs) how this could impact the game and class, because it would break the thief on all but S/P.

Sorry to be “that guy” but you’re out of touch with how balancing should work. If an enemy stealth and you use a defensive ability such as endure pain or shield block, why should the thief get a free hit? What you don’t understand is risk vs reward.

FYI – I see nothing wrong with his utilities and heal. Withdraw is one of the best heals the thief has. He is also stealth heavy since he has BP and SR. S/P thiefs usually take IS for the extra port. Regarding D/P, this ends stealth stacking as the second HS will reveal you. If you want to stack stealth, you have to time it right before stealth ends to HS again. I like it!

Regarding the OP suggestion, I see nothing wrong with it. It punish thief that just spam stealth attack over and over again until it hit instead of timing your attack. I do agree with others that the hit should be more reliable. If you can’t survive 2 secs outside of stealth, holy kitten l2p.

Please humor me more.

One defensive capability is fine, and tactical. You’re the one out of touch, my friend, because you should know very well as I do that when something is 100% effective in shutting something out, it becomes the focus of the meta. When a meta develops to have near constant aegis and blinds, that’s where the problem arises (hello PU Mes, Well of Darkness necro, and focus guardian). The suggestions you’re rebutting against weren’t meant for serious consideration. They are there to suggest one of the only ways you could balance the thief through the OP’s suggestion, however you’ve fixated on that to attempt to tell the world that I don’t know what I’m talking about, despite the rest of the post being well-thought and a constructive counterargument.

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Posted by: Sir Vincent III.1286

Sir Vincent III.1286

Stealth attacks get one attempt. ONE ATTEMPT to land that Backstab, one attempt to land that Sneak Attack, one attempt to land that Tactical Strike, one attempt to land that Surprise Shot.

Whether or not that attack lands or misses, your stealth ends.

It will require a major fixing before this one happen.
1) Block should only be effective at 60degree cone in front of the blocker, instead of 360degree — exposing the back to damage.
2) Steal skill (F1) should teleport the Thief behind the target 100% of the time.
3) Backstab has a built in shadowstep that teleports the Thief behind the target given its name. So a “front” or “side” stab will not be possible.
4) Mug (trait) should knockdown the target.

Revealed debuff is lowered by 2 seconds to balance.

If the changes above also happen, even a five seconds reveal will be acceptable.

On the other hand, I personally hate stealth attacks. Backstab should not have 2 requirements (stealth + back) to be met before using. It should be useable with or without stealth as long as your position relative to your target is exposing their back. Meh, not like either will ever happen.

http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning…there was Tarnished Coast…
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.

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Posted by: Phoenixfudge.5290

Phoenixfudge.5290

Well, Mr. Jorun. You’re quite quick to judge what builds I use over a simple screenshot. That being said, I was messing around with a p/d build when I took it lol. Not that it matters, I’ve had experience with all sorts of thief builds. I was hoping people would just see the amount of hours I have on thief so that they can’t blatantly say I’m some scrub coming over here to complain. Regarding rank, lol rank. When has rank ever actually mattered? It’s like prestige leveling in call of duty. It only tells how much you’ve played, not if you’re good or bad.

In any case, I still like the idea of thieves not being able to spam their stealth attack without any discretion. I’ll admit, my suggestion is over the top especially when guardians have so much access to blind and aegis. Perhaps there could be another trade off. Lower Int cost of skill 5 across all weapons? Have only it only reveal if it’s block (evades don’t count)?

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Posted by: RoyalPredator.9163

RoyalPredator.9163

+1 | Stealth is out of control right now…

Game Designer || iREVOLUTION.Design \\
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Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

This would certainly be one way to fix the issues:

When a thief enters stealth (from not being in stealth), it gets a debuff which lasts the duration of the stealth skill. When this timer expires, the thief becomes revealed regardless of current stealth status for a duration equal to 75% of the skill’s duration.

So you pop aegis/bocks/evades and they’re still revealed for 3s after whiffing the attacks and cannot just re-enter when it expires because they didn’t land a hit.

Now you stop stealth-stacking, permastealth, regen builds, etc. and could then arguably make more changes to the class which would buff the non-meta builds not reliant on these mechanics. It then also raises the skill ceiling and makes stealth very useful but not something considered “cheesy,” for blocking becomes a valid strategy.

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Posted by: Sir Vincent III.1286

Sir Vincent III.1286

This would certainly be one way to fix the issues:

When a thief enters stealth (from not being in stealth), it gets a debuff which lasts the duration of the stealth skill. When this timer expires, the thief becomes revealed regardless of current stealth status for a duration equal to 75% of the skill’s duration.

So you pop aegis/bocks/evades and they’re still revealed for 3s after whiffing the attacks and cannot just re-enter when it expires because they didn’t land a hit.

Now you stop stealth-stacking, permastealth, regen builds, etc. and could then arguably make more changes to the class which would buff the non-meta builds not reliant on these mechanics. It then also raises the skill ceiling and makes stealth very useful but not something considered “cheesy,” for blocking becomes a valid strategy.

You do realize that this will break Shadow Refuge to a pile of garbage, right?

Gah! People with no sense making balance suggestions is infuriating.

http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning…there was Tarnished Coast…
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.

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Posted by: Lamuness.3570

Lamuness.3570

I agree with OP, however, I never see how this is a problem because one, I get maybe 2 tries at most before my stealth runs out?

Whenever I use sneak attack it seems to reveal me every time, so I’d be ok with this change. I don’t, however, see how this is going to make a difference.

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Posted by: Black Teagan.9215

Black Teagan.9215

Wow, I can not believe that it still give people, who thing the “playtime” is an argument. -.-

If you want to balance stealth, then must you change the duration and revealed time and improve the survivability outside of stealth, to increase the buildvarieties

Caleb Ferendir
-Charr Thief-
It’s good to be bad!

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Posted by: Doggie.3184

Doggie.3184

i would actually gladly take this “balance” if it would stop everyone from complaining about the thief stealth even though its basically our only defense mechanism.

It wont so there’s no point in saying that.

| Fort Aspenwood (NA): Sylvari Daredevil Thief Main: All Classes 80. |
Please Remove/Fix Thief Trait: “Last Refuge.”
“Hard to Catch” is a Horrible and Useless Trait. Fixed 6/23/15. Praise Dwayna.

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Posted by: SaltyDave.7346

SaltyDave.7346

Normally I’d support this. But knowing how much they took away from us, things we propably won’t ever get back, I must disagree with this mechanism. It is a great idea and I could support it, if we would get back everything they nerfed / deleted from our class in the past year. All those heartseeker nerfs, everything.

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Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

This would certainly be one way to fix the issues:

When a thief enters stealth (from not being in stealth), it gets a debuff which lasts the duration of the stealth skill. When this timer expires, the thief becomes revealed regardless of current stealth status for a duration equal to 75% of the skill’s duration.

So you pop aegis/bocks/evades and they’re still revealed for 3s after whiffing the attacks and cannot just re-enter when it expires because they didn’t land a hit.

Now you stop stealth-stacking, permastealth, regen builds, etc. and could then arguably make more changes to the class which would buff the non-meta builds not reliant on these mechanics. It then also raises the skill ceiling and makes stealth very useful but not something considered “cheesy,” for blocking becomes a valid strategy.

You do realize that this will break Shadow Refuge to a pile of garbage, right?

Gah! People with no sense making balance suggestions is infuriating.

How so? The cost of an extremely prolonged period of stealth – not to mention the incredible condi cleanse, water field, and healing this skill can provide if used in combat should have appropriate penalties attached to it.

SR then becomes a choice utility instead of a mandated one, which should be a goal for all utility skills. If you don’t have a specific use for it, then it shouldn’t be occupying one of your limited-quantity skill slots.

Such a long-lasting skill also shouldn’t be used on the basis that it can act as an on-demand disengage to then be used as an immediate re-engage. Its extended duration implies that it be used sparingly to either disengage from a fight to run away/revive people or engage from a far distance, throw off attackers, etc.

To enter combat entirely invisible is frankly cheap. Simply, giving the thief this possibility isn’t totally unfair, but moreso is for his entire party which doesn’t rely on stealth. Refuge now becomes much more of a utility/support skill rather than something spammable good in all situations all the time. It raises the skill cap on its use and makes the skill much more fair, while also complying with the guidelines to try and reduce permastealth/stealth spamming builds.

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Posted by: Warkupo.1025

Warkupo.1025

“Please change this thing that counters my meta-build so that I can be all of the meta, all of the time”

“gladly, but only after we nerf your meta build”

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Posted by: stof.9341

stof.9341

How so? The cost of an extremely prolonged period of stealth – not to mention the incredible condi cleanse, water field, and healing this skill can provide if used in combat should have appropriate penalties attached to it.

Shadow Refuge is a dark field, not a water field …

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Posted by: Viking Jorun.5413

Viking Jorun.5413

“Please change this thing that counters my meta-build so that I can be all of the meta, all of the time”

“gladly, but only after we nerf your meta build”

I feel like my signature applies here.

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Posted by: Warkupo.1025

Warkupo.1025

“Please change this thing that counters my meta-build so that I can be all of the meta, all of the time”

“gladly, but only after we nerf your meta build”

I feel like my signature applies here.

Heh, it absolutely does.

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Posted by: Sir Vincent III.1286

Sir Vincent III.1286

This would certainly be one way to fix the issues:

When a thief enters stealth (from not being in stealth), it gets a debuff which lasts the duration of the stealth skill. When this timer expires, the thief becomes revealed regardless of current stealth status for a duration equal to 75% of the skill’s duration.

So you pop aegis/bocks/evades and they’re still revealed for 3s after whiffing the attacks and cannot just re-enter when it expires because they didn’t land a hit.

Now you stop stealth-stacking, permastealth, regen builds, etc. and could then arguably make more changes to the class which would buff the non-meta builds not reliant on these mechanics. It then also raises the skill ceiling and makes stealth very useful but not something considered “cheesy,” for blocking becomes a valid strategy.

You do realize that this will break Shadow Refuge to a pile of garbage, right?

Gah! People with no sense making balance suggestions is infuriating.

How so? The cost of an extremely prolonged period of stealth – not to mention the incredible condi cleanse, water field, and healing this skill can provide if used in combat should have appropriate penalties attached to it.

Sigh. SR already have a penalty attached to it and those who have senses knows exactly how to punish players inside SR — and no, it’s not AoE.

SR then becomes a choice utility instead of a mandated one, which should be a goal for all utility skills. If you don’t have a specific use for it, then it shouldn’t be occupying one of your limited-quantity skill slots.

SR is not a mandate, it’s a staple. You don’t have to bring it, so why do you intend to break it? SR has a purpose and you want to dissolve that purpose.

Such a long-lasting skill also shouldn’t be used on the basis that it can act as an on-demand disengage to then be used as an immediate re-engage. Its extended duration implies that it be used sparingly to either disengage from a fight to run away/revive people or engage from a far distance, throw off attackers, etc.

Now we’re threading on the “dumb” lands because SR is to provide refuge no matter what the situation is. It comes with 60s cooldown so it’s not as “on demand” as you implied it to be.

To enter combat entirely invisible is frankly cheap.

Ah, the truth comes out.

Simply, giving the thief this possibility isn’t totally unfair, but moreso is for his entire party which doesn’t rely on stealth. Refuge now becomes much more of a utility/support skill rather than something spammable good in all situations all the time.

“spammable”? >.<’

It raises the skill cap on its use and makes the skill much more fair, while also complying with the guidelines to try and reduce permastealth/stealth spamming builds.

You entire post is a rant rather than a constructive solution to your problem. You don’t want to fix stealth, you want to get rid of it. Your solution is neither fair nor making any sense.

http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning…there was Tarnished Coast…
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.