Guild Wars 2

Daecollo.9578:

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

You don’t have to hit anything to get the buffs off the steal to pop.

You do have to make the steal skill trigger to get the buffs but you don’t have to hit anything to make steal trigger. You will be on the long cool down when it triggers.

Steal traited to get the buff with swiftness, superior centuar rune to give swiftness on heal, and running along a warrior using horn, I was able to steal and heal while the warrior blew their horn and I had swiftness stacked to 1 minute. Didn’t steal from anything, just making it trigger is all. I never got any kind of item in my steal box either when I just triggered it. Just a long cool down.

Yeah, except it doesn’t work, because I just tested it in SPVP.

Could just be in sPvP then. Didn’t follow the whole discussion for this bit on steal and didn’t know we were talking about sPvP. I know I’ve done it in WvW and I’ve also triggered it in PvE. If I was just trying to scoot through a spot, I would often trigger steal for a little extra speed boost. Just make sure nothing is targeted.

Either way, it has to trigger and gets put on a long cool down when you get those buffs. Endless stacking like the post you all were talking about I don’t think is possible unless you have help from other players.

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

Daecollo.9578:

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

You don’t have to hit anything to get the buffs off the steal to pop.

You do have to make the steal skill trigger to get the buffs but you don’t have to hit anything to make steal trigger. You will be on the long cool down when it triggers.

Steal traited to get the buff with swiftness, superior centuar rune to give swiftness on heal, and running along a warrior using horn, I was able to steal and heal while the warrior blew their horn and I had swiftness stacked to 1 minute. Didn’t steal from anything, just making it trigger is all. I never got any kind of item in my steal box either when I just triggered it. Just a long cool down.

Yeah, except it doesn’t work, because I just tested it in SPVP.

Could just be in sPvP then. Didn’t follow the whole discussion for this bit on steal and didn’t know we were talking about sPvP. I know I’ve done it in WvW and I’ve also triggered it in PvE. If I was just trying to scoot through a spot, I would often trigger steal for a little extra speed boost. Just make sure nothing is targeted.

Either way, it has to trigger and gets put on a long cool down when you get those buffs. Endless stacking like the post you all were talking about I don’t think is possible unless you have help from other players.

Guess the wiki got me this time meh… Gonna find and delete the edit tomorrow

DarnDevil IV.2143:

Daecollo.9578:

I’d rather have 80% critical chance and my attacks hit for 80 and a 20% chance for my attacks to hit for 20, rather then 60% critical chance and my attacks hitting for 100, but a 40% chance for my attacks to hit for 20.

Notice that achieving 400% critical damage is not possible. Reasonable way to count it would be 200% or 250%

The amount of power gained from weapons and armors are equal but you need about 21 precision for 1% critical chanse at level 80. Let’s assume you basic attacks with warrior on axe do 1k dmg. If you calculate the power scailing for axe the avarage scailing for one full chain is 1,63 so let’s use that as the scailing for a hit just to simplify things.

So 80% chanse for a 2k ( or 2,5k ) and 20 % chanse for a 1k hit over 10 hits this is 18k damage or 22k with 250% critical damage as total if it would obey perfectly the crit chance

If we drop our critical hit chanse with 20 % that equals to 420 precision and so it equals 420 add to power. So earlier we did hit 1k dmg on non crit and the additional damage we do is 1,63 times 420 = 684 if we round it down ( as I don’t know if the game uses normal round rules or math floor or roof so let’s assume the worst case scenario ) so total damage is now 1684 on normal hit

So 60% chanse of hitting 3368 ( or 4210 ) and 40% chanse of hitting 1684 over 10 hits this is 26 944 dmg or 31 996 damage with 250% crit damage. So even with 200% critical damage and 60% crit chance the axe would do on avarage more damage than with 250% critical damage and 80% crit chance

Note that these are just simplified attacks and not too accurate calculations. In practice it depends a lot which of the attacks in the chain crit and which do not. this is just more like a guide line and crits do not obey the chanse so strictly, but the basic idea is that the bigger powerscaling your weapon has, the better it is to invest in power.

( You can calculate the power scaling for weapons in the mists with steady weapons. I found the power scaling for axe on warrior from the warrior theeads. Do a x,y coordinate thingy where you have the damage on y axis and power on x axis, get few results with different power levels, draw a line and calculate the change rate of y compared to x ( the change of y divided by the change of x, u know what I mean ) )

What about “Procs on Criticals?”.

You could get “Sigil of Strength 1 sec1 10% / 20% / 30% chance to apply might for 5 / 7 / 10 seconds on critical.”,

Every time you critical, 30% chance to apply might for 10 seconds. (1 second cooldown.)

Combine that with getting might when dodging and fury becomes so much better of a statistic, especially at 80% critical chance.

Having more predictable damage over high chances of lots of damage always wins out for playstyles.

Deadly Arts
Combined Training – Dual skills deal 15% more damage. (It should be a significant increase since its only one skill, nobody is going to take it when theres a “5% DAGGER damage” right next to it which does the same thing, except affects everything!)

Critical Strikes
Combo Critical Chance – Gain 15 seconds of “Fury” when using a dual skill. (30 second cool-down.) (Theres no reason to get 5% critical damage with one skill, when there is a 7% critical right by it.)

Opportunist:
Critical hits have a 15% chance to restore one initiative. (Thief attacks are all fast, the 1 second cd makes it stupid.)

Initial Strike:
Attacks with the first weapon-skill slot have a 25% chance to regain 1 initiative. (7% is … wow.. lol.)

Long Reach:
Increases the Range of Stealing and Pistol Attacks by 300.

Pistol Mastery:
Increases Pistol Damage by 10%, Pistol Attacks now Pierce.

Richochet:
25% Chance for your Pistol attacks to explode, the explosion deals 25% of that attacks damage in area, but sets the targets on fire for 1s.

(Example: If I did a pistol attack that hit for 100, it would hit all targets in the area around that target for 25 and set them on fire for 1 second.)

As I said only weak or noob players can make the thief failed.. Weak and noob players that using thief need (I Q) and initiative lol., this is the example of weak thief http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FCV2p6RSTZU and this is the thief that have (I Q) and initiative., thats why initiative because you need initiative dont complain if you play a thief and you failed it means you dont have initiative lol! http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H3mrVp1_c9g

The 1 second CD on Opportunist is a build equalizer. Removing it while decreasing the trigger chance makes Opportunist weaker for low hit volume setups and insanely strong for high hit volume setups. As-is it strikes a good balance of being useful for everyone without getting out of hand.

Tulisin.6945:

The 1 second CD on Opportunist is a build equalizer. Removing it while decreasing the trigger chance makes Opportunist weaker for low hit volume setups and insanely strong for high hit volume setups. As-is it strikes a good balance of being useful for everyone without getting out of hand.

The high hit volume setups (Unload for example…) are the builds that need the most help…

And hitting someone 10 times with retaliation isn’t good, you do more damage to yourself then you do your target… lol thats the penalty for high hit volumes, you don’t need a second one.

The Limit is stupid, its such a low chance already, it needs no limit as well, the high volume hits are the only ones that really benefir from it and they get screwed by the 1 second cooldown.

It should be raised to 60% chance or the 1 second needs removed.

Daecollo.9578:

The high hit volume setups (Unload for example…) are the builds that need the most help…

Four words:
Unlimited shotgun cluster bomb.

Unload isn’t particularly good, but there are lots of ways for thieves to achieve high hit volume, especially in AE situations.

For everyone intrested in power over precision theorycraft I deleted my own posts as I found this off topic in this thread.

My posting shall continue here

Eodwen.2613:

On another topic i think Cnd precast -> steal into stealth should be changed so that using steal interrupts the casting of CnD.

Let’s take portals away from mesmers and 100 blades away from warriors while we are at it.

Tulisin.6945:

Daecollo.9578:

The high hit volume setups (Unload for example…) are the builds that need the most help…

Four words:
Unlimited shotgun cluster bomb.

Unload isn’t particularly good, but there are lots of ways for thieves to achieve high hit volume, especially in AE situations.

Unlimited shotgun cluster bomb.
So basicly Sword Autoattack with a bleeding sigil? LOL.

lol to all… majority of player here is thief so this is like a trash! if you guyz want to be ( OP) play a thief, but make sure you are pro so that you dont complain if you failed… I hate thief because of OP thats why i build a thief and i feel the over power now… nobody can kill me and nobody can catch me!

DesertRose.2031:

Many other games, including GW1, have shown that playing against a character that appears right next to you out of nowhere and outright kills you or at least heavily damages you is not fun.
So what needs to be changed is the high burst damage some Thief builds can dish out off the cuff. An inelegant way of doing this is do simply decrease the damage and Initiative cost, a more elegant way would be to give high-burst skills some requirements they need to fulfill first to unfold their full potential.

An example of such a change is to reduce the base damage of Backstab and give it a damage bonus for every stack of Bleed on the target. Then the Thief or one of his teammates has to apply those stacks of Bleed first and then could spike the target down.

At the same time such a change would improve the Thief in PvE because it’s easier to set those combos up. E.g. a player character with 25 stacks of Bleed is in most cases as good as dead so a Backstab with ridiculous amount of damage won’t be gamebreaking, but against a PvE champion who easily survives several minutes with so many stacks of Bleed it would be a huge damage boost.

Or you could remove the ability to stealth prior to initial opener without seriously gimping yourself.

ANET: Please listen to this person, heck.. hire him

ASP.8093:

I play a thief in WvW and PvE.

In WvW, I think the complaints about thieves largely stem from players having a difficult time interacting with thieves, due to overlong stealth and super-quick spikes.

1. Culling. Every time a stealthed thief attacks me, I get hit 3-4 times before I can actually see him. I know this isn’t intentional because NPCs see you instantly after the first attack lands. I always shadowstep away when Backstabbed, because there’s no way I can make up Backstab and several other free hits. I understand that WvW culling is a big issue in general, but it’s especially annoying when it impacts you repeatedly in the same fight with thieves.
2. Contesting camps while stealthed. There are counter-strategies, but it’s still an annoying process. All the same reasons you can’t do this in SPvP should apply to WvW as well.
3. Big super-fast spikes. Lots of players complain about these. The overall damage itself is actually fine, in my view, but the spike compression — not damage! — that you get from C&D->Steal->Backstab is a bit much. My impression is that the problem isn’t that Backstab does a lot of damage, it’s that you get C&D and Mug and Sigil of Air all hitting at the same time, then Backstab almost immediately afterward. I think the best fix is turning the Backstab combo into more of a clear two-part spike, with a greater delay between the initial C&D burst and the Backstab follow-up, thereby giving players a chance to dodge, block, &c. My preferred solution would be adding an aftercast to C&D rather than tweaking damage numbers.

More generally, I think the game has a problem with quickness. We’ve seen both thief and ranger nerfed because they had abilities that were alright by themselves but over-the-top ridiculous with quickness. Seems like every ability is potentially problematic with quickness, which points to quickness itself needing some scrutiny.

My first 80 was a thief but I currently spend most of my time playing my 80 Guardian and I have to say I’ve seen the problem from the other side. Many times our group was getting harassed by a lone thief who was just uncatchable. He wasn’t able to kill anyone but it was frustrating not being able to lay some consistent damage down before he disappeared again.

I really want to see the thief be a viable class which isn’t nerfed to obscurity but something needs changing, if only culling.

oellph.9450:

My first 80 was a thief but I currently spend most of my time playing my 80 Guardian and I have to say I’ve seen the problem from the other side. Many times our group was getting harassed by a lone thief who was just uncatchable. He wasn’t able to kill anyone but it was frustrating not being able to lay some consistent damage down before he disappeared again.

I really want to see the thief be a viable class which isn’t nerfed to obscurity but something needs changing, if only culling.

Someone who is hit by aoe in stealth should receive some kind of penalty.

Not necessarily knocking them out of stealth, but perhaps cripple, which if hit again would turn into root.

This would prevent the behavior you’re discussing with minimal pve impact.

plasmacutter.2709:

ANET: Please listen to this person, heck.. hire him

ASP.8093:

I play a thief in WvW and PvE.

In WvW, I think the complaints about thieves largely stem from players having a difficult time interacting with thieves, due to overlong stealth and super-quick spikes.

1. Culling. Every time a stealthed thief attacks me, I get hit 3-4 times before I can actually see him. I know this isn’t intentional because NPCs see you instantly after the first attack lands. I always shadowstep away when Backstabbed, because there’s no way I can make up Backstab and several other free hits. I understand that WvW culling is a big issue in general, but it’s especially annoying when it impacts you repeatedly in the same fight with thieves.
2. Contesting camps while stealthed. There are counter-strategies, but it’s still an annoying process. All the same reasons you can’t do this in SPvP should apply to WvW as well.
3. Big super-fast spikes. Lots of players complain about these. The overall damage itself is actually fine, in my view, but the spike compression — not damage! — that you get from C&D->Steal->Backstab is a bit much. My impression is that the problem isn’t that Backstab does a lot of damage, it’s that you get C&D and Mug and Sigil of Air all hitting at the same time, then Backstab almost immediately afterward. I think the best fix is turning the Backstab combo into more of a clear two-part spike, with a greater delay between the initial C&D burst and the Backstab follow-up, thereby giving players a chance to dodge, block, &c. My preferred solution would be adding an aftercast to C&D rather than tweaking damage numbers.

More generally, I think the game has a problem with quickness. We’ve seen both thief and ranger nerfed because they had abilities that were alright by themselves but over-the-top ridiculous with quickness. Seems like every ability is potentially problematic with quickness, which points to quickness itself needing some scrutiny.

1. Culling does need to be fixed. MMO’s that are almost a decade old have no trouble rendering 300+ models, plus textures. However, they are somewhat unique in this complication due to the fact that it is not just players from a single server in WvW.
2. Yeah, contesting an area should only happen if combat is taking place.
3. The damage compression is, imo, an issue. Besides, it’s not like the Steal -> Cnd -> Backstab is much slower. IMO, this would call for an overhaul of how instant-cast abilities should work in conjunction with Channeled abilities. All instant-cast abilities should interrupt channeled abilities.

However, the latter would lower the skill bar necessary to counter a burst Thief ambush- regardless of player skill. That said, I can’t fault a developer for redesigning for “mass appeal”. If my suggestions in #3 where implemented, I certainly wouldn’t mind.

Up until last night I just hadn’t been seeing numbers of thieves in pvp…. But then last night there were tons of them. 90% were death blossom spam which meant they died to my p/d thief over and over.

I asked around a little and it’s folks rolling a thief after reading the whines on here. Of course many maintained they were owning hard and easy with their new thief… Even though they we dying…. A lot… I mean a lot.

oellph.9450:

My first 80 was a thief but I currently spend most of my time playing my 80 Guardian and I have to say I’ve seen the problem from the other side. Many times our group was getting harassed by a lone thief who was just uncatchable. He wasn’t able to kill anyone but it was frustrating not being able to lay some consistent damage down before he disappeared again.

I really want to see the thief be a viable class which isn’t nerfed to obscurity but something needs changing, if only culling.

Wait, so in WvW you are being harassed, not killed, by a lone thief and want to nerf the class so a group to which the thief poses no real threat, has an easier time catching and killing? Do I have that right? It’s no longer about balance, it’s about the annoyance factor? If that is the case then I for one have a laundry list of things classes do that I think are annoying and want nerfed too.

The thief is supposed to be a slippery class, otherwise the class wouldn’t be called thief. The name implies some sort of getting away with it, thieves that get caught all the time are called convicts.

After playing quite a bit of S/D thief, here are my thoughts:

1. Dancing Dagger should have initiative cost reduced.

2. Flanking Strike’s pathing could really be improved. Right now, it seems an enemy has to be practically immobilized for this thing to actually land in its entirety, and rarely seems worth using over sword chain #1.

3. Access to some form of stability other than popping Dagger Storm would help S/D a lot. Right now it’s far to easy to just get pinballed around in melee range and being completely unable to do anything about it except shadowstep out and potentially reset a fight (which is also a common complaint among even people who don’t play thief, who likes a guy who has to run away constantly?)

4. Crippling Strike (3rd in the sword #1 chain) currently only triggers if you perfectly connect the whole combo. It would help a lot if you trigger this skill without have to actually land the #2, as landing a cripple even if missing the rest helps ensure you can stick around in that melee range without being kited 24/7.

Aervius.2016:

… IMO, this would call for an overhaul of how instant-cast abilities should work in conjunction with Channeled abilities. All instant-cast abilities should interrupt channeled abilities.

Such as Lightning Strike on a Sigil of Air? That is something we’ve all been waiting for. Complications.

Korrtz.3510:

oellph.9450:

My first 80 was a thief but I currently spend most of my time playing my 80 Guardian and I have to say I’ve seen the problem from the other side. Many times our group was getting harassed by a lone thief who was just uncatchable. He wasn’t able to kill anyone but it was frustrating not being able to lay some consistent damage down before he disappeared again.

I really want to see the thief be a viable class which isn’t nerfed to obscurity but something needs changing, if only culling.

Wait, so in WvW you are being harassed, not killed, by a lone thief and want to nerf the class so a group to which the thief poses no real threat, has an easier time catching and killing? Do I have that right? It’s no longer about balance, it’s about the annoyance factor? If that is the case then I for one have a laundry list of things classes do that I think are annoying and want nerfed too.

The thief is supposed to be a slippery class, otherwise the class wouldn’t be called thief. The name implies some sort of getting away with it, thieves that get caught all the time are called convicts.

Lets don’t bring Roleplaying generalizations into this please, just because a thief is called a thief doesn’t mean he should be able to break into your characters bank and steal your stuff?

Also I think the point that was being made is that no other class has so much control over when they enter and leave combat as a thief and that alone is fairly game breaking. Stealth and culling allow a thief to constantly attack and harass without ever having to think about the consequences of entering combat like every single other class in the game, that’s the problem. Combat should never be so one sided that one class has access to a skill that doesn’t have a hard counter, and in an open world a thief simply trying to escape with stealth is almost impossible to stop (yea yea, AoE… the likelihood that catches them is extraordinarily low).

Enough with thieves being able to enter and leave combat at their leisure, by their choice, if they enter combat with someone then they need to go through the same arduous process of leaving it as every other class, kill, run away (not stealth away) or die.

Atticus.7194:

Korrtz.3510:

oellph.9450:

My first 80 was a thief but I currently spend most of my time playing my 80 Guardian and I have to say I’ve seen the problem from the other side. Many times our group was getting harassed by a lone thief who was just uncatchable. He wasn’t able to kill anyone but it was frustrating not being able to lay some consistent damage down before he disappeared again.

I really want to see the thief be a viable class which isn’t nerfed to obscurity but something needs changing, if only culling.

Wait, so in WvW you are being harassed, not killed, by a lone thief and want to nerf the class so a group to which the thief poses no real threat, has an easier time catching and killing? Do I have that right? It’s no longer about balance, it’s about the annoyance factor? If that is the case then I for one have a laundry list of things classes do that I think are annoying and want nerfed too.

The thief is supposed to be a slippery class, otherwise the class wouldn’t be called thief. The name implies some sort of getting away with it, thieves that get caught all the time are called convicts.

Lets don’t bring Roleplaying generalizations into this please, just because a thief is called a thief doesn’t mean he should be able to break into your characters bank and steal your stuff?

Also I think the point that was being made is that no other class has so much control over when they enter and leave combat as a thief and that alone is fairly game breaking. Stealth and culling allow a thief to constantly attack and harass without ever having to think about the consequences of entering combat like every single other class in the game, that’s the problem. Combat should never be so one sided that one class has access to a skill that doesn’t have a hard counter, and in an open world a thief simply trying to escape with stealth is almost impossible to stop (yea yea, AoE… the likelihood that catches them is extraordinarily low).

Enough with thieves being able to enter and leave combat at their leisure, by their choice, if they enter combat with someone then they need to go through the same arduous process of leaving it as every other class, kill, run away (not stealth away) or die.

They can do that, if they have a stupid person standing around picking there nose while he CnDs him over and over.

If your ally is letting the thief do such and for example its 1v3, it might as well be 2v2, because your “ally” is helping the thief more then anyone else by being an idiot.

No other class in the game punishes people as much as the thief for being bad.

However, Thief against people who have a brain, thief is actually not that good of a class, we just have POWERFUL abusive abilities, but if you miss or block or invul, or mistform or dodge or use trait or load up on protection or do anything that prevents CnD from being hit, you win the fight.

For example, lets play an elementalist, which is annoying and abusive, but they have so many defensive abilities they don’t need stealth, HOWEVER, they also don’t need to have stupid players around to do what they do, they don’t need to be in melee range CnDing the targets over and over.

Because of this fact, Stealth thieves, especially P/D Thieves, are one of the most skilled classes in the game, because they must be actively hitting the target to win, one screw up and you have to run away or risk being killed by good players.

I tried Pistol Dagger Thief myself, and I admit, I can’t do it. I don’t have the skill to constantly watch the revealed timer and hit someone with CnD that fast, i’m a bit too paranoid and I usually miss my CnD a lot.

Against Stealth thieves, fighting them, I find it easier killing them 1v1 then anything, 2v1 usually HELPs them win, 3v1, I usually run away because the 2 other players kill me by letting the thief CnD them and then the thief, knowing i’m actually damaging him fires at ME.

Just a quick reply about some old points I made…

1. Culling does need to be fixed. MMO’s that are almost a decade old have no trouble rendering 300+ models, plus textures. However, they are somewhat unique in this complication due to the fact that it is not just players from a single server in WvW.

IIRC, technically speaking, WvW is still on a single server; you’re all essentially “guesting.” It’s not always one of the three servers playing, either. It tells you the server name somewhere on the UI (I think over the minimap?) — you’ll see “Eternal Battlegrounds (Yaks Bend)” or something like that.

I think some of it is a problem with how data is fed to the client. You don’t get info about the location of players you can’t see. However, the game’s still providing you feedback when you hit a thief, so it’s kind of a surprise it takes them a long time to render. It’s really hard to figure out what exactly the engine is doing, but I think part of the issue may be something to do with “animation canceling,” too: like you’re supposed to become visible at the end of Backstab but hitting an auto-attack or Heartseeker (which most thieves will queue up because, well, you’re trying to burst a guy!) delays the reveal a bit more.

Aervius.2016:

2. Yeah, contesting an area should only happen if combat is taking place.

This has already been fixed (since the time I wrote that post a while ago): now stealthed players don’t count for area control, in both WvW and SPvP.

Aervius.2016:

3. The damage compression is, imo, an issue. Besides, it’s not like the Steal -> Cnd -> Backstab is much slower. IMO, this would call for an overhaul of how instant-cast abilities should work in conjunction with Channeled abilities. All instant-cast abilities should interrupt channeled abilities.

The thing with insta-cast is there’s so much good gameplay revolving around it. Timing an insta-cast blind to stop an interrupt is really fun, for example, and very much the epitome of the “understand the animations” thing Anet was pushing with a lot of its design. I’d rather see a change to the “combo” than the removal of this one pretty cool mechanic.

This is my first post on official forum, and I’m going to make it here.:

I’ve been playing this game from bwe1. I started with a guard, but launched the game with thief. I played said thief until 80, got plenty of time under him, something like 300-400 hours. Eventually, after all the “ego-patting” wore off; it became very clear how incredibly imbalanced the class is. Don’t get me wrong, much like everyone else I enjoyed it, and its fun as hell to run amok doing essentially anything you want. However, there was always that “dirty” feeling in the back of my mind.

The problem with the class is how many have already stated, the ability to act without consequence. For example, on my thief I know with the utmost certainty, that I could go by myself into a group of 5-6 opponents and be able to at least distract them if not kill them, while still being able escape myself if need be. Versly, if I was to attempt the same action on my Guardian (who I have 600 hours on), it would be a noble act, I may be able to down one, but ultimately I would die in the end.

Now of course that is just my example, and there are bound to be different opinions of
it. I think the majority of thieves in their current state assume that is what “they should be able to to do”, and ultimately, I think that is where the line is drawn and the arguments ensue. Should a single player on a class be able to harass 5,6,7 opponents and come out generally unscathed? Coming from the other side of the fence now, I say no, they should not.

The bell curve of skill level plays a huge role in the equation of the thief survive/damage ratio, as it does with any class. The problem I see is that the class seems to be set up to the lowest standard allowing people with less than a general understanding to do alright, which of course allows the Cyber Athletic League players to stretch the class way beyond its means. It is the incredibly good players who make the class look like a minor-deity, where as the average Joe complains it is nothing but a glass cannon. So from that perspective, it is hard to judge definitively if, yes its “crazy OP”, or not.

Ultimately, my opinion will remain on the “it needs tweaks” line, specifically stealth as a whole needs looking at. I strongly believe the cloak system is the root of the problem. It is essentially the paper to everyone’s rock, with no scissors per-say to counter it.
Can thieves be hit or immobilized while in stealth? Yes. however Immobilizes, while a great counter in theory, are essentially a joke to thieves. They have the most ways of moving out of, or plain out removing immobilize than any other class. Henceforth, the likelihood of aoe focusing down a highly mobile invisible person is slim-to-none, unless of course the person/people chasing have ESP (Extrasensory Perception).

So to sum this wall of text up, consider this the confessions of a thief who saw the light. I think those who hide behind the “learn two play” mentality are still enjoying their previously mentioned “ego-patting”. Eventually, they too will begin to feel the dirt and seek something deeper, and dare I say, more challenging; something that provides them with consequences for their decisions apposed to ten ways of solving the issue.

Okay, so, here’s another crack at “Why are there so many complaints about thieves?”

I think the #1 thing is that lots of players find thieves frustrating to play against. You can view that as a “learn to play” issue, but fundamentally it’s also a game-design issue: on some level, the gameplay associated with thieves (or, specifically, stealth) is frustrating and confusing. Why is that?

PvP in Guild Wars 2 is very mobile. There’s already less information than GW1: you don’t have progress bars for enemy skill activations, and the party interface is much more limited. Also, honestly, some abilities create so much visual clutter that it’s very hard to make out all of what’s going on on the battlefield, even if it’s just 3-on-3.

What stealth adds to this situation is low feedback. When an opponent is stealthed, you’re now engaged in a fast-paced, mobile battle against a target you can’t see. The only information you have about what’s going on is:

• Damage numbers appear in the combat chatterbox. (Do you have that turned on in a fight? I doubt it. It’s often a terrible info overload.)
• If using melee attacks, which have chains, your auto-attack icon will change once you connect. (This is actually useful visually if you know what you’re looking at, but most times your second hit won’t connect.)
• Certain skill animations will still show up. Mainly shadowsteps.
• You will still see a “Finish Them!” label if you are next to a stealthed player who’s downed. (Note that you can’t actually stomp them unless the stealth wears off first, though.)

Meanwhile, look what you don’t get:

• Floating damage numbers — the usual way to know whether you’re hitting someone and how hard — don’t show up.
• You can’t even use most ranged attacks. The projectiles just dissipate three feet in front of you. Even if it hits, only the chatterbox will tell you.
• Players are so mobile that the limited information you do get about their location becomes “stale” very quickly.

So, okay, when a player goes into stealth, you’re suddenly playing a fast-paced, mobile game with low information. That’s difficult. More specifically, because of just how much of your normal feedback is taken away from you, I think it’s a textbook example of “fake difficulty”.
Aaaand, let’s be honest, half of your abilities essentially don’t work: all your targeted ranged stuff is pretty much borked, and good luck ever getting the third hit of your auto-attack chain (the one that usually does the useful thing) to connect.

~

Now I’m thinking back to my favorite multiplayer stealth gameplay: Unreal Tournament with “mutators” (tiny mods) for perma-invisibility and one-hit-kill shock rifles. It was the epitome of the “pay attention to the actual visuals rather than UI” thing that GW2 tries for. You’d be skulking around watching for the little tell-tale Predator-style visual distortion of a moving opponent. Then, you fire your shock rifle and a bright orange beam (yes, I know it is normally blue; the “InstaGib” ones were orange) pierces the air, resulting in an explosion of bits if you hit your target… And you run like hell because now there’s a giant orange line pointing to where you were just standing. That as just kind of a little joke game mode, but all of it was very twitchy and very visual… which, sadly, is kinda the opposite of GW2.

(I would never suggest the same mechanics be implemented in a totally different game. But I think the core thing here is important. Make it actually useful to look at the environment instead of the UI.)

~

Thieves have a lot of cool stuff going for them. They have some mechanics that nicely reward skill and planning. They’re aggressive and mobile in a very fun, satisfying way. Most of their mechanics punish misplays hard: both opponents’ and your own — that’s generally good design. But you know something’s a bit rotten when lots of players are flocking to stealth-troll builds in WvW. :/

Thieves feed off bad players, the more bad players you have on your team, the harder a thief is to kill.

Thieves get stronger every time you make a mistake, every time your team makes a mistake it punishes everyone else.

Thieves are hated because we teach people how to play the game by punishing them for being bad and making mistakes, that is why we have 100 threads about nerfing us.

Daecollo.9578:

Thieves feed off bad players, the more bad players you have on your team, the harder a thief is to kill.

Thieves get stronger every time you make a mistake, every time your team makes a mistake it punishes everyone else.

Thieves are hated because we teach people how to play the game by punishing them for being bad and making mistakes, that is why we have 100 threads about nerfing us.

Actually, I think thieves are hated because most share this mindset. If you were to step off your pedestal for a minute, you may see why the class is a bit over the top. I know I had to, and it wasn’t easy.
Furthermore, what happens when the thief makes a mistake? Is it punished? No, it goes stealth, backs up/shadow-steps, regens, and tries again. Can you honestly say that is the epitome of balance?

Nate Rush.6970:

Daecollo.9578:

Thieves feed off bad players, the more bad players you have on your team, the harder a thief is to kill.

Thieves get stronger every time you make a mistake, every time your team makes a mistake it punishes everyone else.

Thieves are hated because we teach people how to play the game by punishing them for being bad and making mistakes, that is why we have 100 threads about nerfing us.

Actually, I think thieves are hated because most share this mindset. If you were to step off your pedestal for a minute, you may see why the class is a bit over the top. I know I had to, and it wasn’t easy.
Furthermore, what happens when the thief makes a mistake? Is it punished? No, it goes stealth, backs up/shadow-steps, regens, and tries again. Can you honestly say that is the epitome of balance?

Your speaking of 1v1 imbalance, this is a group game.

You did not lose the fight, so who cares if the thief got away, you mean to say that you should win?

I read your posts, you played a guardian, and gave examples of what a guardian can’t do.

A thief however, can’t go into a zerg, protect all his allies and give powerful boons to them all, switch to an elite and heal an entire zerg of players, and then put on group protection and regeneration, and turn a losing fight into a winning one, while a guardian can.

A Thief can’t put on a greatsword and pull an entire enemy team into all his allies aoes and destroy them all with coordination, a guardian can.

A Thief cannot zone in the middle of a battle, rez an allie and put on stability and protect and help someone up while being hammered on while aoes, a guardian can.

a Thief cannot go into PvE, take on multiple enemies at once, tank them all, and then come out unphased while protecting his team and healing them and granting everyone boons, a Guardian can.

Sorry, but thieves specialize in mobility, if you can’t catch him, so? If this is WvWvW you have other objectives, one thief isn’t going to prevent a zerg from getting a keep. If this is Spvp you still have the point you were protecting or gaining, he ran away so now your team has that point.

Daecollo.9578:

Nate Rush.6970:

Daecollo.9578:

Thieves feed off bad players, the more bad players you have on your team, the harder a thief is to kill.

Thieves get stronger every time you make a mistake, every time your team makes a mistake it punishes everyone else.

Thieves are hated because we teach people how to play the game by punishing them for being bad and making mistakes, that is why we have 100 threads about nerfing us.

Actually, I think thieves are hated because most share this mindset. If you were to step off your pedestal for a minute, you may see why the class is a bit over the top. I know I had to, and it wasn’t easy.
Furthermore, what happens when the thief makes a mistake? Is it punished? No, it goes stealth, backs up/shadow-steps, regens, and tries again. Can you honestly say that is the epitome of balance?

Your speaking of 1v1 imbalance, this is a group game.

You did not lose the fight, so who cares if the thief got away, you mean to say that you should win?

I read your posts, you played a guardian, and gave examples of what a guardian can’t do.

A thief however, can’t go into a zerg, protect all his allies and give powerful boons to them all, switch to an elite and heal an entire zerg of players, and then put on group protection and regeneration, and turn a losing fight into a winning one, while a guardian can.

A Thief can’t put on a greatsword and pull an entire enemy team into all his allies aoes and destroy them all with coordination, a guardian can.

A Thief cannot zone in the middle of a battle, rez an allie and put on stability and protect and help someone up while being hammered on while aoes, a guardian can.

a Thief cannot go into PvE, take on multiple enemies at once, tank them all, and then come out unphased while protecting his team and healing them and granting everyone boons, a Guardian can.

Sorry, but thieves specialize in mobility, if you can’t catch him, so? if this is WvWvW you have other objectives. If this is Spvp you still have the point you were protecting.

I made no mention of 1-1; I have no idea where you got that from.
You stated that thieves punish people for making mistakes. I asked you what happens when a thief makes a mistake?

I’m well aware there are differences between guards and thieves, they are completely different. So, instead of trying to push the subject to there and tell me there are things guards can do that thieves can’t (of which I’m well aware.) Why don’t you start off by actually answering your own misnomer of what happens when a thief makes a mistake? Because, I can tell you right now a guard sure can’t vanish into thin air when he messes up.

If you did actually read what I wrote, (of which I doubt, you probably just skimmed for dirt). You would see that I have played a thief too, to the fullest extent. I know the capabilities and limitations of the class quite well. I will step out on a limb and assume you are under the assumption the thief should be able to harass 7,8,9,10 people alone unhindered. As I stated, I think that is the argument line, and that is where you are going to have to accept that people will think different.

If a thief makes a mistake, depending on what kind of thief he is, he usually has to run away.

Since the thief uses the initiative system instead of a cool down system, if he misses an attack, that puts him majorly behind in the fight.

If a Thief misses a Cloak and Dagger, it usually means a lot of bad things for the thief, because he never went into stealth, this means hes visible and vulnerable, thieves are the squishiest class in the game, so vulnerability is extremely harsh.

I awnser this completely and honestly, but it also depends on what hes fighting as well.

If your fighting a D/D Elementalist, they are much faster then you, if you try and run, so running from them without using a stealth utility is almost impossible.

Edit:
I would like to add that Thief is a very “active” defense and “passive” attack class, every time we do something defensive, we must be very active, watching our revealed buffs and making sure we don’t make mistakes, but our damage comes “passively.” because of initiative.

Classes like Guardian and Elementalist are more passive defense, and “active” attack, meaning they have to work for there damage, but they already have powerful innate defenses.

Daecollo.9578:

If a thief makes a mistake, depending on what kind of thief he is, he usually has to run away.

This, exactly. That is the point I am making with you. The comment you made about thieves punishing others for mistakes essentially equates to the thief killing that person. Where as, if the thief makes a mistake, it’s inherent mobility allows it to have an ace up its sleeve to get out of dodge if need be.

To go into it further, that isn’t even my issue with the class. I actually think that aspect of it IS what makes it an interesting class. My issue, and I’m sure many other peoples issue, is the stealth invincibility (extreme word, general idea). One person should not be able to dance around taking jabs at many, many time their numbers because they cannot be seen. It is as I said, the paper to rocks, without scissors to stop. If there was a way to build a ranger for example to be able to see stealth, it would bring it back into the line of balance. As is, it is unhindered, unequaled.

I myself, know well enough to just keep going where I’m going when a stealth-troll pokes me. Why? because I know they can’t kill me, and I can’t kill them. However, some people are a lot softer than I, and can be killed by said troll. I am giving my protest as a former thief of how, I too, think it’s mildly ridiculous to be able to do what many thieves are capable of doing via stealth.
If you are unable to see what a near epidemic of stealth thieves there are on the WvW fields; I think that says less about me and more about you.

Nate Rush.6970:

Daecollo.9578:

If a thief makes a mistake, depending on what kind of thief he is, he usually has to run away.

This, exactly. That is the point I am making. The comment you made about thieves punishing others for mistakes essentially equates to the thief killing that person. Where as, if the thief makes a mistake, it’s inherent mobility allows it to have an ace up its sleeve to get out of dodge if need be.

To go into it further, that isn’t even my issue with the class. I actually think that aspect of it IS what makes it an interesting class. My issue, and I’m sure many other peoples issue, is the stealth invincibility (extreme word, general idea). One person should not be able to dance around taking jabs at many, many time their numbers because they cannot be seen.

I myself know well enough to just keep going where I’m going when a stealth-troll pokes me. Why? because I know they can’t kill me, and I can’t kill them. However, some people are a lot softer than I, and can be killed by said stealth-troll. I am giving giving my protest of a former thief of how, I too, think it’s mildly ridiculous to be able to do what many thieves are capable of doing via stealth.
If you are unable to see what a near epidemic of stealth thieves there are on the WvW fields; I think that says less about me and more about you.

Actually thats 50/50, punishing them means killing or making them run back to there zerg, or making them run away, other classes can run away as well, not just thief.

Some times a thief can start punishing someone, but then get side tracked and get pobbled by aoes and down himself.

I will say this though, no class besides the thief in this game, can punish your allies and use them against you like a thief can, and that is why I love this class.

Lol., stop this the truth are nobody can kill thief if the player are pro! The only thing you can kill thief if the player who use it is noob, weak or greedy! The percentage of surving in combat by class playable by a pro player., lowest rate is the ranger w/60% the engineer 65%, necro 66%, warrior 70%, mesmer 80% or 100% if use portal, guardian 91%., elementalist 98% thief 50% if noob player but 100% if pro.,

jan.9745:

Lol., stop this the truth are nobody can kill thief if the player are pro! The only thing you can kill thief if the player who use it is noob, weak or greedy! The percentage of surving in combat by class playable by a pro player., lowest rate is the ranger w/60% the engineer 65%, necro 66%, warrior 70%, mesmer 80% or 100% if use portal, guardian 91%., elementalist 98% thief 50% if noob player but 100% if pro.,

Sorry sir but I believe your mistaken, rangers actually survive 59.9999998126%, get your facts right >_>

Honestly though I’m trying to cut you some leeway but your constant references to “noob” or “pro” players and completely nonsensical survival percentages is making it hard not to point how crazy your post is.

That thing is base on 1 vs 5., and for professional player, we are talking for thief that they say thief is OP or have some imbalance issue, its defend on the situation if the player is noob the thief is not OP but if the player is professional the thief will become OP because if the professional player use a thief you dont have a chance to kill the thief., the issue here will never end because there is 3 different kind of player here (1. The Noob 2. The normal, 3. The insane or the pro)

Nate Rush, bless his soul, has already summed up my general opinion. I don’t necessarily want a “nerf”, per se, but I want Stealth Thieves to have to do a modicum of work to get their results. When a class mechanic has such high reward for basically no risk, it makes me sad.

I want counter-play. That’s all. When there’s counter-play mechanics involved in a fight, the fight is infinitely more fun. Fighting other good Warriors is amazingly enjoyable. The act of fighting a Guardian is also highly enjoyable. Fighting Mesmers if often extremely enjoyable. D/D Elementalists are an intense fight, even if I think their ability to regen and keep Prot up is a little on the lame side. I haven’t fought as many Rangers/Engis, but they can both be enjoyable as well.

Fighting a Thief is either the easiest thing in the world, or impossible. The ability to spam stealth would be fine if, and only if, the game were designed around detected and revealing stealthed enemies. It isn’t. There’s no reveal mechanic that I know of or have. There’s no detection mechanic besides randomly throwing abilities around and just hoping they hit. Counter-play is a complete guessing game with almost no reward.

At the end of the day, they’re simply frustrating to the point of being nonsensical to fight when they spam stealth. As someone else mentioned, it’s only fun for the Thief, really. Or other Thieves, from what I’ve heard. I want to respect a Thief that I fight because of intelligent use of mobility and counter-play. I don’t want to feel no respect whatsoever for Thieves because of a mechanic that just feels abused.

If a Thief goes stealth in front of me, and I anticipate his direction and Earthshaker on top of him, I want some sign other than losing Adrenaline that I landed the hit. If I guess properly and counter-play the stealth, what’s my reward? Knowing I did some damage that will be shrugged off because there’s no strong follow-up. Even if I land it, and know I land it, I have no idea if the Thief is within range of a Staggering Blow, or where to aim a subsequent Hammer Shock or Backbreaker. Why shouldn’t I be rewarded for appropriately countering the stealth escape with an anticipatory attack? Why shouldn’t the Thief be punished for stealthing directly in front of enemies instead of just being able to frolick around even if damaged?

I want to see Thieves dancing through a fight, bouncing from enemy to enemy or appearing, harassing, drawing attention, and then bounding away. I want to say “ kitten that was a clever use of stealth” instead of “Well, he stealthed for the 5th time using (Shadow Refuge OR Hide in Shadows OR Steal → CnD OR just Stealing (traited) OR Blinding Powder OR hitting 25% health (5 point minor, traited) OR Leap Finisher in a Smoke Field (both available to the Thief)), I guess that’s nice. I’ll just keep using abilities into the air and running in directions praying I’m correct.”

If it takes buffing other areas, then good. Go for it. Buff Thieves, make their other weapons viable, but please redesign Stealth so it isn’t completely unenjoyable for everyone except the Thief. Aegis has counter-play, and rewards good timing. Blind has counter-play, and rewards good timing. Shattering can be spotted and dodged, as can Burst abilities. Eles have all sorts of visual cues for when you need to counter-play. Ranger pets can even involve counter-play.

So please. Let me have some semblance of rewarding counter-play against a Thief.

Thief is not an overpowered class in spvp or wvwvw, in fact its weaker then most classes in sustained damage and group utility.

Thieves have two things going for them, high damage in a short amount of time and the ability to escape almost any situation.

Nerf this, and you need to give us more of the above, there are barely any thiefs who use anything else besides “Shadowstep/Signet of Shadows.” because we have access to little to no boons.

@Daecollo ( you know were you belong )

Thieves have two things going for them, high damage in a short amount of time and the ability to escape almost any situation.

I don’t know what it is exactly about this sentence, but I can’t think of another thing in another game that has high burst combined with high survivability.

Also, Thieves actually have surprising siege utility, built properly. I’m not sure for how long, but it’s there. I see your point though, and I’d love for Thieves to have more utility that allows them to play different roles in a group.

It isn’t like the reasonable ones among us want Thieves to be a do-nothing class. We just want to be able to fight them.

Nate Rush.6970:

The problem with the class is how many have already stated, the ability to act without consequence.

Consequences as you picture them do not match up with PvP in this game. Guildwars PvP is not your avarage MMO with PvP servers where pc’s attack each other in the open (PvE) world and fight to the death, but about gaining control over resources and strategic points on the map. While in an average MMO’s pvp server the consequence of a lost fight may be the pc’s (temporary) death, in this game the consequence to loosing a fight is loosing control over a resource or a strategic location on the map.

They have the most ways of moving out of, or plain out removing immobilize than any other class.

Actually, only Rangers have fewer utility skills to break stun, all others have 4 or 5 skills. Immobilized is a condition and any form of condition removal will end it, but along with thief a couple of professions have one or more skills to removes it specifically.

Two things IMO:

1. Revealed debuff lengthened. Not to some ridiculous 30+seconds, but 4 or 5 seconds instead of just 3.

2. Hitting a stealthed thief with an attack (has to be a new attack, not just condition damage ticking) will cause them to have the revealed debuff when their current stealth ends. Not pop out immediately, but no more just using C&D 1/2 sec after you come out (and likely before you are even rendered again) over and over and over with impunity, no matter how many aoes the multiple people searching get lucky with.

Stealth atm is a bit too good of a defensive ability considering its effective cooldown, while also being a good offensive ability.

As a thief myself i find a bit ridiculous that we don’t lose stealth after a missed attack.
If you guys really are so desperate to nerf stealth, that’s where you should start complaining, tbh.

Undertow.2389:

Two things IMO:

1. Revealed debuff lengthened. Not to some ridiculous 30+seconds, but 4 or 5 seconds instead of just 3.

2. Hitting a stealthed thief with an attack (has to be a new attack, not just condition damage ticking) will cause them to have the revealed debuff when their current stealth ends. Not pop out immediately, but no more just using C&D 1/2 sec after you come out (and likely before you are even rendered again) over and over and over with impunity, no matter how many aoes the multiple people searching get lucky with.

Stealth atm is a bit too good of a defensive ability considering its effective cooldown, while also being a good offensive ability.

I think the revealed buff lengthing will be kind of fixed if they ever can solve the culling issue as it would give youmfew more seconds to see the thief

I think making stealth break if hit will just kill the profession. Something more like better feedback for hitting a stealthed thief ( ofcourse when a thief evades your hits by dodging this should give no information at all making it possible to juke with dodge ), forcing thieves movement speed to normal while in stealth ( this would make some kind of trade off situation for going stealth and it would be easier to catch a thief in stealth ) could be more potential changes.

As for now I have been using Fleet Shadow and it just feels ridiculous when I stealth and have 50% ms. According to my knowlage, 50% movement speed was only achievable by engineers using super speed ( slick shoes toolbelt skill ), 50% ms for 5 seconds on 45 sec cooldown or down to 31.5 sec cooldown if traited 30 in tools. Thieves can now easily achieve 8 seconds of it on 30 sec cooldown ( CnD + hide in the shadows ) and 15 seconds of it on a 50 sec cooldown ( I assume you dont use cdr on deception skills ) with shadow refuge ,15 in shadow arts and 10 in acrobatics. In addition, thieves are not visible for the whole duration. I don’t understand why did they ever buff the trait for me it feels more like an allowed exploit than buff.

EDIT:
@muscarine

You have a good point there. We have 4 seconds to decide when to attack ( with 15 in shadow arts using CnD ), this should be more than enough to choose the perfect moment forcing stealth to be more like a defensive mechanism with offensive capabilities but making it not to forgive your miss playing.

I believe that small changes can make the difference instead of nerfing every thing a profession has. This is with all professions.

To be honest, the more I think about it, the more I think thieves are perfectly fine the way they are, but (and this is a HUGE but) other classes (not even all of them) need to have a spec in which they are able to detect and/or reveal stealth. (Engineer goggles, ranger’s tracking/scent (off top of my head (which could also be a way to buff said classes as they are pretty lackluster atm anyway)))
Will that tik a lot of thieves off? Yep. Will a lot of stealth-trolls cry murder and blame said class/es of being OP? Oh ya. Is it a balanced way to solve all the bickering and finger pointing? I think so. Is giving a mechanic to one or two classes that is counter-able by mechanics given to one or two different classes fair? Absolutely, if my math checks out…..yes, yes it does.

Ohai Paper, See you been messin’ with all these Rocks…meet my friend Scissors….
End of stealth thieves overpowered thread forever, goodnight, happy new-year.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Nate Rush, bless his soul, has already summed up my general opinion. I don’t necessarily want a “nerf”, per se, but I want Stealth Thieves to have to do a modicum of work to get their results. When a class mechanic has such high reward for basically no risk, it makes me sad.

I want counter-play. That’s all. When there’s counter-play mechanics involved in a fight, the fight is infinitely more fun. Fighting other good Warriors is amazingly enjoyable. The act of fighting a Guardian is also highly enjoyable. Fighting Mesmers if often extremely enjoyable. D/D Elementalists are an intense fight, even if I think their ability to regen and keep Prot up is a little on the lame side. I haven’t fought as many Rangers/Engis, but they can both be enjoyable as well.

Fighting a Thief is either the easiest thing in the world, or impossible. The ability to spam stealth would be fine if, and only if, the game were designed around detected and revealing stealthed enemies. It isn’t. There’s no reveal mechanic that I know of or have. There’s no detection mechanic besides randomly throwing abilities around and just hoping they hit. Counter-play is a complete guessing game with almost no reward.

At the end of the day, they’re simply frustrating to the point of being nonsensical to fight when they spam stealth. As someone else mentioned, it’s only fun for the Thief, really. Or other Thieves, from what I’ve heard. I want to respect a Thief that I fight because of intelligent use of mobility and counter-play. I don’t want to feel no respect whatsoever for Thieves because of a mechanic that just feels abused.

If a Thief goes stealth in front of me, and I anticipate his direction and Earthshaker on top of him, I want some sign other than losing Adrenaline that I landed the hit. If I guess properly and counter-play the stealth, what’s my reward? Knowing I did some damage that will be shrugged off because there’s no strong follow-up. Even if I land it, and know I land it, I have no idea if the Thief is within range of a Staggering Blow, or where to aim a subsequent Hammer Shock or Backbreaker. Why shouldn’t I be rewarded for appropriately countering the stealth escape with an anticipatory attack? Why shouldn’t the Thief be punished for stealthing directly in front of enemies instead of just being able to frolick around even if damaged?

I want to see Thieves dancing through a fight, bouncing from enemy to enemy or appearing, harassing, drawing attention, and then bounding away. I want to say kitten that was a clever use of stealth" instead of “Well, he stealthed for the 5th time using (Shadow Refuge OR Hide in Shadows OR Steal -> CnD OR just Stealing (traited) OR Blinding Powder OR hitting 25% health (5 point minor, traited) OR Leap Finisher in a Smoke Field (both available to the Thief)), I guess that’s nice. I’ll just keep using abilities into the air and running in directions praying I’m correct.”

If it takes buffing other areas, then good. Go for it. Buff Thieves, make their other weapons viable, but please redesign Stealth so it isn’t completely unenjoyable for everyone except the Thief. Aegis has counter-play, and rewards good timing. Blind has counter-play, and rewards good timing. Shattering can be spotted and dodged, as can Burst abilities. Eles have all sorts of visual cues for when you need to counter-play. Ranger pets can even involve counter-play.

So please. Let me have some semblance of rewarding counter-play against a Thief.

Well said, can’t agree more just having some modicum of a chance to beat a thief without having to rely on random chance (because once again stealth has no hard counter… which designer thought that was a good idea?) would be amazing. As Cogbyrn said stealth should be something thieves use to pull off a quick or clever move in specific situations not as an automatic means to avoid death, perform stealth finishers (that’s another thing that needs to be outright removed), or to annoy and harass whole groups knowing there is no direct way to counter it.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Nate Rush, bless his soul, has already summed up my general opinion. I don’t necessarily want a “nerf”, per se, but I want Stealth Thieves to have to do a modicum of work to get their results. When a class mechanic has such high reward for basically no risk, it makes me sad.

I want counter-play. That’s all. When there’s counter-play mechanics involved in a fight, the fight is infinitely more fun. Fighting other good Warriors is amazingly enjoyable. The act of fighting a Guardian is also highly enjoyable. Fighting Mesmers if often extremely enjoyable. D/D Elementalists are an intense fight, even if I think their ability to regen and keep Prot up is a little on the lame side. I haven’t fought as many Rangers/Engis, but they can both be enjoyable as well.

Fighting a Thief is either the easiest thing in the world, or impossible. The ability to spam stealth would be fine if, and only if, the game were designed around detected and revealing stealthed enemies. It isn’t. There’s no reveal mechanic that I know of or have. There’s no detection mechanic besides randomly throwing abilities around and just hoping they hit. Counter-play is a complete guessing game with almost no reward.

At the end of the day, they’re simply frustrating to the point of being nonsensical to fight when they spam stealth. As someone else mentioned, it’s only fun for the Thief, really. Or other Thieves, from what I’ve heard. I want to respect a Thief that I fight because of intelligent use of mobility and counter-play. I don’t want to feel no respect whatsoever for Thieves because of a mechanic that just feels abused.

If a Thief goes stealth in front of me, and I anticipate his direction and Earthshaker on top of him, I want some sign other than losing Adrenaline that I landed the hit. If I guess properly and counter-play the stealth, what’s my reward? Knowing I did some damage that will be shrugged off because there’s no strong follow-up. Even if I land it, and know I land it, I have no idea if the Thief is within range of a Staggering Blow, or where to aim a subsequent Hammer Shock or Backbreaker. Why shouldn’t I be rewarded for appropriately countering the stealth escape with an anticipatory attack? Why shouldn’t the Thief be punished for stealthing directly in front of enemies instead of just being able to frolick around even if damaged?

I want to see Thieves dancing through a fight, bouncing from enemy to enemy or appearing, harassing, drawing attention, and then bounding away. I want to say kitten that was a clever use of stealth" instead of “Well, he stealthed for the 5th time using (Shadow Refuge OR Hide in Shadows OR Steal -> CnD OR just Stealing (traited) OR Blinding Powder OR hitting 25% health (5 point minor, traited) OR Leap Finisher in a Smoke Field (both available to the Thief)), I guess that’s nice. I’ll just keep using abilities into the air and running in directions praying I’m correct.”

If it takes buffing other areas, then good. Go for it. Buff Thieves, make their other weapons viable, but please redesign Stealth so it isn’t completely unenjoyable for everyone except the Thief. Aegis has counter-play, and rewards good timing. Blind has counter-play, and rewards good timing. Shattering can be spotted and dodged, as can Burst abilities. Eles have all sorts of visual cues for when you need to counter-play. Ranger pets can even involve counter-play.

So please. Let me have some semblance of rewarding counter-play against a Thief.

Oh Yea them visual cues that reward good play like INVULNERABILITY rofl. Come on lets get real here. You named all those things about fighting a d/d ele that is being beat on by 5 ppl. Then you see them turn into mist and start jumping away. Splash a heal then RTL back into 5 ppl lmao are you serious. I like the challenge of fighting D/D ele’s on my thief because I know its going to be a good fight probably with no winner. Come on though naming all these good things in your opinion but leaving out invulnerability etc that isn’t some reward for good play its pressing a button. Blind and aegis I agree but some of these abilities you named are pretty easy to pull off.

You named mesmer I’m in trouble i press 4? Im traited for illusiionary persona so I can get my 4 seconds of invulnerability. That took skillz!!!!!

In his defense, 4 seconds of invuln is a lot more skillful than 4 minutes of find the invisible man.

Undertow.2389:

2. Hitting a stealthed thief with an attack (has to be a new attack, not just condition damage ticking) will cause them to have the revealed debuff when their current stealth ends.

This is an interesting suggestion, biggest issue I have with it is that it takes control of whether the thief gets the revealed debuff out of the hands of the thief, which is already a major problem with at least one trait.

Xae.7204:

Yeah, it would be great to see some Thief playstyles other than “LOL INSTAGIB” get buffed. P/P was really fun, but overpowered, in some of the BWE. They probably hit the damage to hard, but it was fun to by a mid range skirmisher.

That is a cute list of bugs though. You should see the ones in the Ranger, Engineer or Necro forums. Necros even devised a tracking and naming system. Engineers cracked 100 a while ago.

“LOL INSTAGIB” only happens when people build glass cannons in low-mobility classes like Ranger, Warrior, Guardian, and Necro. If people stack toughness (for instance, all Warriors should be using Knight’s Armor and/or emerald trinkets in WvW), then glass cannon thieves like myself can be in trouble.

Elementalists and Mesmers are only in trouble if they sit still and don’t know how to play against thieves. No matter what their build, Elementalists have plenty of defensive, offensive, CC, and gap-control abilities to work with. If an Ele loses against a thief, then he’s not using his skills and attunements well enough (that goes double for D/D eles, who should have an ADVANTAGE over a standard thief). If a Mesmer loses against a thief, it’s because he wasn’t using his illusions like blood hounds, and using his CC and gap-control abilities like they should.

For Engineer…. well, unless you’re a TANKCAT engie, you’re pretty much screwed. Engies need a serious buff. It’s why my engie hasn’t even gotten past lvl 11 thus far (I’ve not put any time into it).