Guild Wars 2

Laika.8795:

Except that there is a rule that says you have to stand in there. That rule is: if you leave the circle, you are unstealthed and revealed for 3 seconds. You can dodge roll around in it, but should you accidentally pop out, you’re guaranteed dead.

Yep, so you place it and stand in it while you receive plenty of initiative and health from it while avoiding the AOEs and melee attacks. You’re stealthed so you only have to avoid blind attacks. You may not be aware of this, but most classes don’t have an abundance of AOEs either.

Laika.8795:

Sebrent.3625:

It’s nowhere close to what a tanky build has. Simply stating numbers doesn’t mean a thing. That video shows that people are quite wrong when they say things like “Thief dies to a slight breeze” or “Thief can’t be both tough and do good damage”. The video shows both those types of statements to be wrong.

You’re right, it’s not a tanky build, but enough to mitigate damage. He’s selectively thinning the heard of weak targets, and the groups he is fighting are too stupid to understand how to counter him. If your teammate gets downed by a thief, rain aoe or autoattack over their body and it’s over. You rarely saw that in the video, and when you did, you also saw the thief run away and abandon the stomp.

Yes, when there were multiple people doing it or a Chaos Storm (can daze) to interrupt, he did not stomp. So I need to carry friends around in my pocket that jump out and autoattack over my body after the stealth thief downs me?

Laika.8795:

Sebrent.3625:

You have admitted in other posts that clipping is an issue. It does make the Thief invis almost 100% in WvW if they so wish it. The abundance of NPCs, etc. that I’ve listed multiple times as well make it trivial as well to land a C&D.

There are so many videos that show thieves popping out of stealth for only a second and then restealthing. It isn’t “sensationalized”. It is something that there is a pile of video evidence for.

Yes, it’s also wasting 6 (4 w/ trait) initiative just to stay stealthed, procing it off things like random white con fauna that is not hurting you. Do you think it’s something you can do forever if you want to eventually engage your enemy?? Yes, you can get trolled by a thief C&D stacking on you. Gain distance and move on, or force him to engage at reduced initiative.

It’s not wasting it when it is soft-resetting the fight for the Thief without doing the same for the person they are fighting. While stealthed, you’re cleansing conditions, healing, and regenerating initiative quicker. At the same time, your opponent is not cleansing conditions without popping a cooldown, is not healing without popping a cooldown, and their cooldowns are not recharging quicker.

As far as thinking a Thief can do it forever if they want to engage? Yes. We’ve seen plenty of videos where Thieves do just that. They aren’t really using their initiative for anything except stealthing w/ weapon skills and normal initiative regen is 1 per 1.33 seconds so in the 4 seconds that you are stealthed you have gained 3 initiative. With a 4 second stealth and a base of 12 max initiative, you are losing 1 initiative per C&D into a backstab so can do that ~12 times before even running the risk of running out of initiative.

Heck, look at that math. It is not costly for the Thief, it is very effective, and it is not hard to do.

Again, there’s no wonder we’re seeing such a large influx of Thieves in WvW.

Where is this large influx of thieves? On anvil rock EB I’d say the split is pretty even with all the classes, but if I had to order them in the number I run across, it would be guardian, ele, mesmer then thief tied with or slightly below warrior. People tend to remember what they have a hard time dealing with, and not the others that they run through.

It hasn’t been just me noticing it. Our server’s teamspeak has noticed an abundance of thieves as well. Perhaps it’s just the Thieves doing a majority of the roaming and other classes sticking with zergs more …

Also, why would I be noticing my own server’s abundance of Thieves? Obviously my server’s thieves aren’t killing me.

Just a mild point I would like to add to the discussion. Columba, Sebrent and others keep talking about all the things thieves can do in stealth, init refund on stealth skills, cleanse conditions, blind on stealth, regen boon, healing in stealth, init regen in stealth, and all of these are wonderful traits, but we do have to CHOOSE, we cant have all of them, so stop acting like we can, no thief can run 9 different traits in shadow arts, and this assumption of godmode thief that we can is ignorant

So it’s only your server you are saying you’re seeing an upswing in thieves, but not the servers you are playing against?

No, I’m saying it’s both my server and the ones we’re fighting this week.

The past 2 days the various people I roam with have noticed it as well because the number of fights we get into that don’t involve 2+ thieves is becoming less and less.

Sebrent.3625:

No, I’m saying it’s both my server and the ones we’re fighting this week.

The past 2 days the various people I roam with have noticed it as well because the number of fights we get into that don’t involve 2+ thieves is becoming less and less.

So the meta is changing to realize that thieves can be helpful in the context of coordinated team play. I hope it spreads to our servers as well.

Login.5102:

I don’t main a thief, I find guards, eles, and messers much more powerful than thiefs when played by good players.

Thiefs excel at killing baddies. Baddies excel at crying on forums. Explains this 50 page thread.

this

Brassnautilus.2941:

Login.5102:

I don’t main a thief, I find guards, eles, and messers much more powerful than thiefs when played by good players.

Thiefs excel at killing baddies. Baddies excel at crying on forums. Explains this 50 page thread.

this

^this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u55vHURPQSw&t=2m11s

Yuujin.1067:

We’re tied with Elementalist for the lowest amount of health in the game.

People complain that when we fail in a fight all we do is stealth and run away, but I’ve got news for you, that is all we can do.

We don’t have the luxury of running into a fight and standing there soaking up damage like a warrior does without sacrificing our own ability to do damage.

If a glass cannon thief gets away from you because of clever use of stealth, that’s a thief that can deal damage but had to use all of his utility slots to keep from dying. That’s where we are right now. It is just as annoying and painful for us to have to do it as it is for anyone to have to deal with it.

We were given the lowest amount of health, but as far as crazy nuke damage goes, it really only comes from three abilities; Cloak and Dagger, Heartseeker when an enemy is at low health, and Backstab when we are standing behind our targets.

Our nuke damage has been artificial culled by the restealth timer. Originally, we were only supposed to be hindered by the amount of initiative we have, but that changed so now we are slaves to our restealth timer if that is the kind of damage we want to do.

I get it, we were given too many ways to stealth ourselves. Shadow Refuge, Blinding Powder, Hide In Shadows, specced we can stealth on steal. Too many ways to do what feels like our only respectable source of damage in PvP.

So what? Stealth has a duration. If you see us drop a refuge you roll back, turn around, then run. Same mechanics are applied to just about everything else. We lack the snares we need to keep people in place for backstabs that we used to have, and you we can still be hit while we are stealthed so if you choose not to run away and swing blindly at the air, you’re still dealing damage to us while we try to position ourselves.

We have extremely low health, no protection or stability boons (Save for stability that comes from one of our elites while it is active), and deal all of our damage while we are in melee range while wearing medium armors we are assassins and as such, we need to be able to unload a crap ton of damage and escape if need be.

As far as group utility goes, we don’t bring the buffs. Hell, we don’t even buff ourselves. If we want might, we have to assign traits that give us might on use of venoms or signets. When you compare that to the setup engineers have, it just feels lackluster. Sure, theres requires 30 points in a tree, but when you compare the rewards they get just from their elixirs (Fury/Might/Retaliation, conditions to boons, health + Regen + Protection) and then the additional reward they get from their toolbar elixirs which also buff and aid allies (Big bonus there), plus the 1% damage per boon they have on themselves? Yeah, that’s awesome. Popping signets for 5 seconds of 5 stacks of might and dumping their passive effects for the active effects that in some cases are extremely conditional, is not fun.

That really ties into my next point. Our trait trees need to be looked at. Deadly arts really just feels very lackluster. Critical Strikes is in a good place. You might want to consider dropping Keen Observer though and replacing it with Practiced Tolerance because we kinda need the extra vitality. I love Acro and Shadows arts but I can’t go far enough into those trees without sacrificing my damage. You don’t get enough toughness and health our of them to feel comfortable gearing for damage stats, so you still need more toughness and vit to feel less than squishy, which sacrifices even more damage. That’s where our passive group utility feels like it is. Shadow Arts has the AE blind on stealth and the regen when we stealth our buddies but I’ve found that when I’m running with a group, other classes just do it better, and I’m better off just dealing damage.

Damage and cloak rezzing allies!

Cheers

yeah what does the engi do when the thief goes stealth nothing wait for his boons to enter cooldown and even if not what would he do the pure boon build requires having all Utilities with elixirs wich leave engineer with no defensive skills other than Elixir S unlike thiefs Engi bleed from pistol only lasts for 1-2 ticks whereas you get just useyour shortbows or the stealth pistol skill wich unloads an instant 5 bleed stack. having lots of might cant be compared to thief stealth nor Initiative the ability of using skills without cooldown alone is slightly overpowering on its own .

Laika.8795:

I also have a thief buddy. Me.

And guess what? I avoid the backstab in a Mug>Immo>C&D>BS chain at least 80% of the time.

Guess that means it’s a l2p thing, huh?

http://youtu.be/u55vHURPQSw?t=2m9s

Rezzet.3614:

yeah what does the engi do when the thief goes stealth nothing wait for his boons to enter cooldown and even if not what would he do the pure boon build requires having all Utilities with elixirs wich leave engineer with no defensive skills other than Elixir S unlike thiefs Engi bleed from pistol only lasts for 1-2 ticks whereas you get just useyour shortbows or the stealth pistol skill wich unloads an instant 5 bleed stack. having lots of might cant be compared to thief stealth nor Initiative the ability of using skills without cooldown alone is slightly overpowering on its own .

I don’t know much about engi’s but I fought a few engi’s that were pretty good and it didnt matter that I stealthed on him I could kill the guy.

Like others said you have to chose to take certain traits you can’t have them all and executioner is a big one if you really want to damage someone. I don’t like being full glass so I only have 15 in Critical, stats look like 2k power, 40% crit chance, 77 crit damage 2.5k armor. 30 in SA and 25 in acro.

A good engi fights around his traps does he not? This guy was using caltrops, his elite and his gunk. Had a shield for block had some ability he threw a disc that stunned me (not gears).

Now Its possible I could have killed that guy if I put 30 points into critical strikes. He was dodging when I go into stealth always moving stay near his elite. If I went to grab executioner I won’t have quick recovery, no feline grace. Its all a trade off blind on stealth is good, remove condi good, regen in stealth is good. so is infusion of shadow, shadow protector etc. I can’t have all of them, some thieves dont take the condi removal and like the blind, some like condi removal.

The problem is not thieves its peoples bloodlust honestly I can count at least 5 times yesterday I distracted a group of people who were zerg surfing. Its so easy to do we can be really annoying but if you ignore us it will make life much easier for you seriously.

Initiative and our skills need rework, in current state it’s press to win. Every skill is just click and profit, there is no thought in it.

When we first learned about the Thief and the iniative system we all shouted: strategy! Iniative management! Use skills wisely!

This all faded once we learned how to heart seeker and how to CnD or DB spam. It’s the lack of build up→ follow up that makes classes that use systems like this unique and exciting.

I was going to put down the suggestion to have something along the lines of the GW1 Assassin combo’s again but haven’t been able to work it out.

I really want to build up to things and then unleash the force, but now it’s 2-2-2 or 5-1 5-1 5-1 or 3-3-3.

I hope that a dev leaves a response because it’s been so long, and Thieves have serious issues across the board, both strong and weak!

bettadenu.5483:

Initiative and our skills need rework, in current state it’s press to win. Every skill is just click and profit, there is no thought in it.

When we first learned about the Thief and the iniative system we all shouted: strategy! Iniative management! Use skills wisely!

This all faded once we learned how to heart seeker and how to CnD or DB spam. It’s the lack of build up-> follow up that makes classes that use systems like this unique and exciting.

I was going to put down the suggestion to have something along the lines of the GW1 Assassin combo’s again but haven’t been able to work it out.

I really want to build up to things and then unleash the force, but now it’s 2-2-2 or 5-1 5-1 5-1 or 3-3-3.

I hope that a dev leaves a response because it’s been so long, and Thieves have serious issues across the board, both strong and weak!

So we go back to 12345 or in the case if mobius strike, 123454545? If you miss with that you run, if you hit you win. Sounds exactly like how you’re claiming thief gameplay is now.

Sebrent.3625:

Jerks.3172:

Several ways of reset how? only hide in shadows and shadow steps assuming you have no iniatiave from missing your CnD

You’re not mentioning Shadow Refuge, Blinding Powder nor the trait, Last Refuge, that gives you Blinding Powder when 25% hp. That’s a ton of stealth.

Shadow Refugee is easily counter-able. Its funny how many times thieves been downed but the player that killed them oh i shouldnt wait this out and aoe the area cause he probably alive. As for blinding powder seriously how many people run this skill i’ve seen less than 10% in my entire gameplay of 200hr in wvw as for blinding powder at 25% hp that screws thieves more over than its help you know cause its not a active and a passive skill.

Sebrent.3625:

Jerks.3172:

Take a good amount of punishment? you serious right here? if a butterfly lands on a thief they just go downed.

Watch the video. There are plenty of times he gets CC’d and takes quite a good number of hits and lives. There’s my evidence and he had ZERO +toughness on his gear, just a few pieces w/ Valk stats.

No toughness? He uses +100 toughness food, gets +300 toughness from trait, +100 vit from trait, + valkyire armor yes.. he has no toughness 400 toughness is nothing apparently. As for the damage 6:40 4 hits hes down to 50% hp and his hp pool/toughness is larger than most thief i dont see the problem. As for the only semi competent person was the ele and he was already giving him a real hard time but never uses his auto attacks.

Sebrent.3625:

Jerks.3172:

They do not have to wait 3 second to restealth. Yes, thief can chain stealth but if they screw up and stealth wears off before chaining they dont get stealthed at all and get revealed..

<sarcasm>It must be so hard to chain stealth when you can hit clones, phantasms, ranger pets, random critters, and neutral NPCs in order to continue stealthing.

It must also be difficult to hit people who can’t see you so don’t know when to block/dodge to prevent you hitting them. </sarcasm>

As far as the advice to “blindly swing at the area you think the Thief is stealthed at” … how is that fun?! Against non-Thief classes, we get to see our opponent, react to each other’s skills, etc.. Against the Thief we have to guess that the thief was dumb enough not to dodge roll while stealthed and blindly swing? That’s “awesome” and it works if the thief is low on health and too dumb to take advantage of the dodge roll mechanics and their high movespeed. Dumb thieves are not the problem.

Cloak and Dagger.. you have to be right by the enemy and he cant really get far 3 second cloak. If you get tagged you should get ready for a fight and position yourself and IF he continues to just CnD you when you’re along (which never happens) you can walk away not like that damage is going to kill you and if he doesnt run shadow arts with right traits hes not going to stick on you for very long.

Sebrent.3625:

I have provided a video and a screenshot illustrating what people are talking about. What have you thieves been illustrating? That you don’t want any nerfs.

Let’s be honest. There is a reason for the massive influx of Thieves we’re seeing in World vs World. About 1/4 of my server’s WvWers last night were Thieves and it was the class I kept constantly running into from other servers as well.

There are obvious reasons Thieves are so prominent in WvW while other specific classes are not.

Thieves you keep running into hmm they are they roaming class along with d/d ele arent they? they dont really run with zergs as they accel in 1v1 combat i wouldnt be surprise you see thieves everywhere.

Sebrent.3625:

I’ll put it this way.

When I face a good player playing any other class, I am fine with losing the fight and I reflect on their likely build, how my build pairs up to it, possible weaknesses exposed in mine, and how the flow of the fight went as far as mistakes made and things done “perfectly” by both sides. I am able to do this because non-Thief classes offer good fights.

However, I do not have this feeling when it comes to Thieves playing those 2 builds as forcing people to blindly swipe at air constantly throughout a fight or forcing them to play a tanky build or be insta-gibbed by an invisible enemy are not good fights.

Right here, your just going for every class should be the same, other classes accel at other things do people not get this? Its like saying i want to GC and withstand a thief’s burst.

Caltrops are Nails from the Tool Kit, the Gunk is probably the Acid Bomb from the Elixir Gun, the Gear Shield comes from the Tool Kit and the ‘disk’ is his own offhand shield thrown at you.

An Engineer is very prepared to receive aggressions of that kind, but unless it’s a glass cannon Rifle user, you’ll escape him fairly easily assuming you actually know what the class is capable of.

For the engaging issues… Well. The first time a Thief meets me he won’t think about any possible defense and will waste his Steal + Basilisk Venom + CnD on my Gear Shield or anyone’s class related block/immunity.

Problem is when a Thief gets to know that. A good one will trick me into using the Gear Shield, and the eventual dodges, then strike. It turns into a huge mind game where the Thief has one hell of an advantage. Now don’t get me wrong, lots of people can burst. The main problem is just the ability to reset fights if it doesn’t feel right.

Calae.1738:

Jerks.3172:

Calae.1738:

Stealth has always been a problem in any MMO. Any damage that you output upfront without time to setup, gives no warning to the victim. It’s too easy. Any noob can do it. Luckly, the Thief doesn’t have much control skills or else it would be a lot worse.

When you design a class that insta kills another player without giving enough time for that player to react; its a problem with the class not the player. It’s not fun for the person getting killed and it’s not fun for the person doing the killing either.

It’s completely stupid.

No time to react? Since when did Steal CnD BS Combo time to execute become less than 1 second? it takes at least a good 2-3 seconds to execute and if you dont react after getting hit by the steal you shouldnt even be alive.

Wrong.

I have a Thief buddy. All you need are the venoms that stun or immoblize and you’re toast. We can argue all day about this. If you think 2 seconds of reaction time is enough, you’re delusional. That’s not even taking lag into account either.

Apparently its hard to press the break stun button and reposition hmm.. I guess for some people it is if they dont have the reaction time. I dodge most of the combo, the only time i get hit is when i screw up or was not expecting a attack (usually form behind) since i dont use the 180 camera that often so about 40% of the time my back is open.

bettadenu.5483:

Initiative and our skills need rework, in current state it’s press to win. Every skill is just click and profit, there is no thought in it.

When we first learned about the Thief and the iniative system we all shouted: strategy! Iniative management! Use skills wisely!

This all faded once we learned how to heart seeker and how to CnD or DB spam. It’s the lack of build up-> follow up that makes classes that use systems like this unique and exciting.

I was going to put down the suggestion to have something along the lines of the GW1 Assassin combo’s again but haven’t been able to work it out.

I really want to build up to things and then unleash the force, but now it’s 2-2-2 or 5-1 5-1 5-1 or 3-3-3.

I hope that a dev leaves a response because it’s been so long, and Thieves have serious issues across the board, both strong and weak!

Lets see I also have a mesmer sword/pistol my optimal rotation is decoy, 4, 5, 3,3, 2, f1. Switch weapons to great sword stall until my burst rotation is up again rinse repeat. Meh thats not hard I am pretty sure its like that for every class.

You said learned to heartseeker, db spam, cnd its the same as any class or skill. You use what gives you the best bang for your buck.

Is a optimal burst opening Cloak and Dagger, Mug, Dancing dagger? lol What about Mug, Cloak and Dagger, shadow strike?

On my mesmer when I run the last skill I pop is mind stab cause its weaker than the rest.

Ele is the only class with a semi complicated rotation and that can just be learned with a little bit of practice for you optimal burst. Honestly is there any rotation in this game that is hard to pull off?

Thedenofsin.7340:

Brassnautilus.2941:

Login.5102:

I don’t main a thief, I find guards, eles, and messers much more powerful than thiefs when played by good players.

Thiefs excel at killing baddies. Baddies excel at crying on forums. Explains this 50 page thread.

this

^this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u55vHURPQSw&t=2m11s

I bet anything you play a messmer or ele and you can’t handle a thief

oZii.2864:

Rezzet.3614:

yeah what does the engi do when the thief goes stealth nothing wait for his boons to enter cooldown and even if not what would he do the pure boon build requires having all Utilities with elixirs wich leave engineer with no defensive skills other than Elixir S unlike thiefs Engi bleed from pistol only lasts for 1-2 ticks whereas you get just useyour shortbows or the stealth pistol skill wich unloads an instant 5 bleed stack. having lots of might cant be compared to thief stealth nor Initiative the ability of using skills without cooldown alone is slightly overpowering on its own .

I don’t know much about engi’s but I fought a few engi’s that were pretty good and it didnt matter that I stealthed on him I could kill the guy.

Like others said you have to chose to take certain traits you can’t have them all and executioner is a big one if you really want to damage someone. I don’t like being full glass so I only have 15 in Critical, stats look like 2k power, 40% crit chance, 77 crit damage 2.5k armor. 30 in SA and 25 in acro.

A good engi fights around his traps does he not? This guy was using caltrops, his elite and his gunk. Had a shield for block had some ability he threw a disc that stunned me (not gears).

Now Its possible I could have killed that guy if I put 30 points into critical strikes. He was dodging when I go into stealth always moving stay near his elite. If I went to grab executioner I won’t have quick recovery, no feline grace. Its all a trade off blind on stealth is good, remove condi good, regen in stealth is good. so is infusion of shadow, shadow protector etc. I can’t have all of them, some thieves dont take the condi removal and like the blind, some like condi removal.

The problem is not thieves its peoples bloodlust honestly I can count at least 5 times yesterday I distracted a group of people who were zerg surfing. Its so easy to do we can be really annoying but if you ignore us it will make life much easier for you seriously.

wich further strengthens my points to the other thief , the engi needs 30 points for HGH trait to stack up mights and conditions. the one you fought had at least 10-20 points traited in Tools for Swiftness on kit and/or kit Refinement for the caltrops and wasnt running an elixir build he had pistol and shield to be able to use the “stun disk” shield #5 skill as for the gunk it was bomb #5 skill caltrops was tool kit #2 wich means the engi had at least 20 points on the Tool trait and probably 10-20 in Explosives for bomb range (and possibly Bomb cooldown). wich shows an elixir boon build is pretty much situational all but might boons only last 15s with runes so its not like they would be on at all times.

Login.5102:

Thedenofsin.7340:

Brassnautilus.2941:

Login.5102:

I don’t main a thief, I find guards, eles, and messers much more powerful than thiefs when played by good players.

Thiefs excel at killing baddies. Baddies excel at crying on forums. Explains this 50 page thread.

this

^this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u55vHURPQSw&t=2m11s

I bet anything you play a messmer or ele and you can’t handle a thief

this link has some truth lol

Sebrent.3625:

It hasn’t been just me noticing it. Our server’s teamspeak has noticed an abundance of thieves as well. Perhaps it’s just the Thieves doing a majority of the roaming and other classes sticking with zergs more …

Also, why would I be noticing my own server’s abundance of Thieves? Obviously my server’s thieves aren’t killing me.

We are seeing Fgs of roaming thieves in WvWvW now. They can take out multiple groups who never see them.

Columba.9730:

We are seeing Fgs of roaming thieves in WvWvW now. They can take out multiple groups who never see them.

Every thief has already beaten you, even if you spiked them.

They are inside your head so you have already lost every single fight against a thief.

Really, it isn’t hard to deal with thieves.

Columba.9730:

Sebrent.3625:

It hasn’t been just me noticing it. Our server’s teamspeak has noticed an abundance of thieves as well. Perhaps it’s just the Thieves doing a majority of the roaming and other classes sticking with zergs more …

Also, why would I be noticing my own server’s abundance of Thieves? Obviously my server’s thieves aren’t killing me.

We are seeing Fgs of roaming thieves in WvWvW now. They can take out multiple groups who never see them.

I would love to see a single thief take out a organized group. Good luck with that.

MrForz.1953:

Caltrops are Nails from the Tool Kit, the Gunk is probably the Acid Bomb from the Elixir Gun, the Gear Shield comes from the Tool Kit and the ‘disk’ is his own offhand shield thrown at you.

An Engineer is very prepared to receive aggressions of that kind, but unless it’s a glass cannon Rifle user, you’ll escape him fairly easily assuming you actually know what the class is capable of.

For the engaging issues… Well. The first time a Thief meets me he won’t think about any possible defense and will waste his Steal + Basilisk Venom + CnD on my Gear Shield or anyone’s class related block/immunity.

Problem is when a Thief gets to know that. A good one will trick me into using the Gear Shield, and the eventual dodges, then strike. It turns into a huge mind game where the Thief has one hell of an advantage. Now don’t get me wrong, lots of people can burst. The main problem is just the ability to reset fights if it doesn’t feel right.

100Nades the thief. If he is GC – he is dead.

the thief is immune to CC because of so many stun break skills … oh wait.
it is me, or the deception shadowstep got nerfed in terms of time to use the 2nd skill? (like you have few seconds to use shadow return or loose it)

When it comes to the burst thief, let’s just ignore the fact that stunbreaker’s don’t get you out of basilisk venom (lol?).

When it comes to the stealth thief, they are the stealth thief because they have taken those 30 points to get those traits.

You thieves can talk about how your class is “fine” all day, but until other classes can zerg surf, reset fights, etc. even half as well as the Thief, you’re just blowing hot air.

We can continue to pretend that all classes are “equal” or we can be honest. Heck, anyone notice the comments about Rangers being easy targets not being disputed? There’s a reason for this … just like there are reasons why specific Thief builds are a bit out of control in WvW.

I don’t mind that a Thief can do great damage. I don’t mind that a Thief can stealth. What I mind is that a Thief can fight me for 30 seconds and spend a majority of that time stealth while still doing damage to me. I mind that a Thief can kill a person without that person even seeing the Thief. Those are not right in a game that is supposed to be visual with its combat. In both those instances I’m provided with no visuals … instead I have to blindly swing at where I guess he is.

DanH.5879:

the thief is immune to CC because of so many stun break skills … oh wait.
it is me, or the deception shadowstep got nerfed in terms of time to use the 2nd skill? (like you have few seconds to use shadow return or loose it)

The range is a problem, if you get out of the return range the return skill dissipates and shadowstep goes on cooldown.

Sebrent.3625:

We can continue to pretend that all classes are “equal” or we can be honest.

Why do you think all classes should be equal? Mesmers have portals, thieves can surf zergs. This is not a shooter.

DanH.5879:

the thief is immune to CC because of so many stun break skills … oh wait.
it is me, or the deception shadowstep got nerfed in terms of time to use the 2nd skill? (like you have few seconds to use shadow return or loose it)

Mesmer have the most stun breakers in the game at 4 every other class has 3.

then i would propose that thief to have only 1 stun breaker, or none (better)
all agreeing to this nerf, please raise your feet

DanH.5879:

then i would propose that thief to have only 1 stun breaker, or none (better)
all agreeing to this nerf, please raise your feet

Only if it´s an on-stealth stun-breaker

4 stunbreakers that are all utilities when you can only have 3 utilities? Lol.

Portals don’t allow people to gimp a player without a visual. In fact, you can see when a Mesmer places their initial portal and you can see the 2nd portal for a little over a second before it becomes active.

Again, the portal provides players a chance to react. This is why there are those amusing instances in WvW where a Mesmer portal bombs but the other side has stacked AOEs and hundred blades warriors on top of it. A welcome surprise for those using that portal and a few unhappy comments at that Mesmer.

As far as classes being equal, I don’t mean they should be able to do everything equally well. I think the sums of their strengths and weaknesses should be equal. Right now, Thief is king of WvW roaming.

Also, to be clear, I have more Thieves simply escape than insta-gib me. It’s the good ones that are the killers. The bad ones just simply continue to reset the fight and are a pain in the kitten Then they go off and fight other baddies who have no chance because of the advantages.

Given two equally skilled players, the Thief beats the non-Thief.

DanH.5879:

then i would propose that thief to have only 1 stun breaker, or none (better)
all agreeing to this nerf, please raise your feet

Only non weapon skill that breaks stun I know of is the precision signet. I think one of the sword skills also breaks stun but sword isn’t very popular.

By the way … Thieves have 4 utility stunbreakers … way to know your class, fellas.

• Haste
• Infiltrator’s Signet
• Shadowstep
• Roll for Initiative

Sword is less popular because its stealth attack, Tactical Strike, does half the damage of backstab and more people seem to value that damage over the 2 second stun.

Sword also doesn’t allow Thieves to Spam Heartseeker. Pistol Whip is great but it doesn’t leap at the target so it’s “harder” to use.

Sebrent.3625:

When it comes to the burst thief, let’s just ignore the fact that stunbreaker’s don’t get you out of basilisk venom (lol?).

When it comes to the stealth thief, they are the stealth thief because they have taken those 30 points to get those traits.

You thieves can talk about how your class is “fine” all day, but until other classes can zerg surf, reset fights, etc. even half as well as the Thief, you’re just blowing hot air.

We can continue to pretend that all classes are “equal” or we can be honest. Heck, anyone notice the comments about Rangers being easy targets not being disputed? There’s a reason for this … just like there are reasons why specific Thief builds are a bit out of control in WvW.

I don’t mind that a Thief can do great damage. I don’t mind that a Thief can stealth. What I mind is that a Thief can fight me for 30 seconds and spend a majority of that time stealth while still doing damage to me. I mind that a Thief can kill a person without that person even seeing the Thief. Those are not right in a game that is supposed to be visual with its combat. In both those instances I’m provided with no visuals … instead I have to blindly swing at where I guess he is.

I hope the basilisk venom comment is a joke…..

If a thief is actually attacking you (tactical strike, backstab, sneak attack) they could, at best, spend only 57% of the time in stealth assuming they had everything timed down to the millisecond. Realistically, they are probably spending only 40% of their time in stealth. If they are chaining C&D, they are going to have a very specific time interval in between which you should be able to block or dodge. I watched last night as my guardian friend got me up from down-state literally letting his passive abilities take care of the thief allowing him to completely ignore it. As for swinging blindly to find the thief, it is a very effective tactic. When fighting another thief last night, he popped shadow refuge at about 40% health. Walking into it and swinging let me go through 2 autoattack chains against him. When SR disappeared, I started missing him. 12 ish seconds later he appeared in down-state off to the side at 50% health. There are a ton or visual and auditory cues in the game that you can use to fight thieves. Roll a thief, not to make it your new main, but to learn its strengths, weaknesses, loadouts, and tactics and take that knowledge back to your main. Most of the thief community is willing to help if you need it.

Maugetarr.6823:

I hope the basilisk venom comment is a joke…..

Sadly, it’s not… He’s complaining about Thieves like he’s played one intimately. In reality, he’s pen and paper theorycrafting how OP we are. On paper it sounds a lot better than it really is…

Hell, he constantly references the trait Patience (1 init for every 3 seconds in stealth) like any thief has ever used it…

He’s like Columba’s english speaking brother.

@Maugetarr: I’m curious how you’re getting those percentages for stealth. When I give numbers, I give how I got them. Let’s people check. Also, no, Basilisks Venom does hold you long enough for a glass cannon thief to down another glass cannon. Thankfully my Ranger is tanky and my Mesmer can still shatter while in it, but others are not so lucky.

@Laika: I do have a Thief alt that I play around on to see wtf it is people are doing and how “hard” or “easy” it is. The hardest playstyle for me to mirror was a good sword Thief who made use of the awesome mobility given by that weapon.

I can’t help but notice you completely ignoring the very simple math I showed where in those 4 seconds you can have stealth you are regenerating 3 of the 4 initiative it took you to C&D. It’s 4 initiative because I’ve been talking about Infusion of Shadow, not Patience. That doesn’t match up with you and other people’s claims that it’s “costly” to keep using Cloak and Dagger.

Additionally, Cloak and Dagger still hits hard, as shown by the screenshot I posted earlier where it hit for 4k.

You can try to talk poorly about people or you can talk about the class. Talking about the class and providing facts, not instances where someone sucked, are what needs to be done.

You know what happens when I auto-attack in a refuge with my melee weapon against a good thief? I get 1 hit on the thief and he dodge rolls while stealthed away from my melee arc. He can see me, but I can’t see him so it’s much easier for him to avoid my melee than it is for me to guess where he is. Only the bad thieves allow my 2nd auto attack to hit.

The cloak and dagger ability is overpowered because it allows stealth off of non-living objects. A thief can sit inside a keep/tower forever, abusing the culling system that is already in place.

Re-design the ability to only proc off of living objects. Not destructables like walls, doors, and siege. I believe this will help reduce some of the culling being exploited by some thieves.

There is no counter to what they are doing now. None.

Im always able to kill other Thief’s while they are in stealth.
I only have a few aoe and no real CC so Im not sure why you are having this issue.

katniss.6735:

The cloak and dagger ability is overpowered because it allows stealth off of non-living objects. A thief can sit inside a keep/tower forever, abusing the culling system that is already in place.

Re-design the ability to only proc off of living objects. Not destructables like walls, doors, and siege. I believe this will help reduce some of the culling being exploited by some thieves.

There is no counter to what they are doing now. None.

/agreed

Sebrent.3625:

@Laika: I do have a Thief alt that I play around on to see wtf it is people are doing and how “hard” or “easy” it is. The hardest playstyle for me to mirror was a good sword Thief who made use of the awesome mobility given by that weapon.

I can’t help but notice you completely ignoring the very simple math I showed where in those 4 seconds you can have stealth you are regenerating 3 of the 4 initiative it took you to C&D. It’s 4 initiative because I’ve been talking about Infusion of Shadow, not Patience. That doesn’t match up with you and other people’s claims that it’s “costly” to keep using Cloak and Dagger.

Yes, in a theoretical fight where you’re C&Ding a target that is too oblivious as to what’s happening to block/dodge, the thief can stay pretty much permanently stealthed, and that is primarily a culling issue and not a mechanic issue. All it takes is one miss to bring the thief to below 50% initiative, and it doesn’t take a degree in nuclear physics to understand the rhythmic pattern of the required attacks.

Either way, do me a favor and record a video of you effortlessly slaughtering people, or zerg surfing, or 2v1ing. Zerg surfing doesn’t need exotics, right? You’re god-mode invisible, nothing’s gonna happen to you.

Sebrent.3625:

Portals ….

You are completely besides the point, which you started on actually.

As far as classes being equal, I don’t mean they should be able to do everything equally well. I think the sums of their strengths and weaknesses should be equal. Right now, Thief is king of WvW roaming.

That’s something, as they aren’t much of use in a siege, or a battle of armies. If classes don’t need to do everything equally well, what would be the problem with thieves excelling at roaming? Every class needs a place, something they’re good at, so everyone can contribute in some way.

Sebrent.3625:

d Dagger.
Additionally, Cloak and Dagger still hits hard, as shown by the screenshot I posted earlier where it hit for 4k.

It really should not be that hard to avoid an occasional CnD from someone who’s trying to hit you with it every fourth second. And when they miss one, they loose out on half their initiative bar, there’s not Infusion and no 4 seconds before the next CnD attempt.

… in those 4 seconds you can have stealth you are regenerating 3 of the 4 initiative …

Initiative regeneration is 6 per 10 seconds, or 2.4 in 4 seconds, not 3, a 25% miss. It adds up in the long run.

@Sebrent

4/7=.5714

I chose to alternate between a thief that would be waiting 3 seconds in stealth for a benefit and 1 second to keep pressure up with backstab, which gives a total time 4 seconds in stealth and 6 seconds out of stealth assuming no slop (precasting C&D so it hits as soon as the revealed debuff ends) then you arrive at 4/10 seconds or 40% of stealth uptime. There are situation both ways that could skew this higher or lower, but its an average starting point. A thief that dodges around in shadow refuge risks dodging out and revealing themselves so most I have played against do not dodge inside of it. Basilisk venom is a fancy looking 1.5 second stun at this point, much easier to deal with than a warrior’s mace burst attack which can be used every 8-10 seconds (depending on traits).

I’ve played the game since launch, have a few classes decked out at level 80. I started playing WvW more seriously about a month ago.

When fighting in a 1vs1 situation with all other classes (except the Thief), I have a lot of fun. The encounter is challenging and pretty much on a level where no one person has any major advantage over the other.

Yet, with the Thief as an opponent, the experience is just horrible. I’ve tried combating this class with several other classes and so far nothing seems to really work.

I’m not alone here. Many people I’ve played with agree that it’s not worth fighting a Thief. I’ve seen a Thief take down a Yak/Veteran AND 3 other players(defending the Yak). That’s just INSANE….

I’m not going to go into the issues here, as TONS of people have regurgitated it in these and other forums.

Nor do I wish the Thief to be nerfed into oblivion as an unplayable class.

But currently, Thieves are like those action hero’s in the movies that noone can seem to kill. He’s the Stephen Segal, Bruce Willis, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Wesley Snipes, and generally all around invincible Ninja..
I just feel like I’m one of the 200 stunt men and bad guys in the movie the Thief(ahem Hero) fights.

That’s just not right, and honestly, playing WvW has become a lot less fun, in most part due to the balance issue with Thieves.

Anet, it’s really about time you did something….

as a Thief I have no issues killing “invisible” thief’s.
I lol when I see a thief throw down SR because Ill just Cluster bomb/ choking gas them to death and see a downed thief pop up.

most of the time I also go in stealth and BS them while they hide in SR.
its not hard if you know what most thief’s do.

Do i get ganked, yes because I want paying attention to my back or side. do I gank them… evil laugh yes.

Yamato Shinobi.4378:

When fighting in a 1vs1 situation with all other classes (except the Thief), I have a lot of fun. The encounter is challenging and pretty much on a level where no one person has any major advantage over the other.

Good thing WvW isn’t about 1v1’s and there is no dueling option that rewards you for anything more than loot bags that you get anyway.

I would like to propose a serious question though. The 2 classes I feel I know the most about are thieves and mesmers since I have level 80’s on both and played both extensively.

Lets say you take a scenario even in WvW a duel by the windmill (usual spot) if you had to place money on same type teams vs 5 thieves which would you think comes out on top?

5 mesmers
5 warriors
5 guardians
5 necros
5 elementalists

Now playing a thief and a mesmer my honest opinion is that all of those classes would beat a 5 thief team. I think the other class that tieves have the best synergy with besides its own is elementalist. Other than that I feel like thieves really synergize with themself the best.

Sebrent.3625:

4 stunbreakers that are all utilities when you can only have 3 utilities? Lol.

Well you didn’t specify but those are utilities yes you are correct does it matter that you can only have 3 utilities mesmer still has the most stun breakers in the game. Its called options its not like every stun breaker for a mesmer does the exact same thing. Why wouldn’t you run decoy or mirror images on your bar anyway lol. Those are stables imo at least decoy is.

Thief has sword 2 that is a stun breaker that isnt a utility thats it but its not like you pop that cause your stunned you have to be on infiltrator return already to break stun as far as I know.

Thief class needs an entire redesign. Without stealth, they’re useless. Without bursts, they’re useless.

This isn’t impossible to fix a-net, you did it years back with dervishes in the first Guild Wars.

First off i’d like to say that I don’t consider the thief class to be overpowered, I just want to make that clear. The only problem i have with the class is the fact that shadow refuge grants stealth for a total of 9 seconds. This can be used to revive a downed ally in stealth. Now you might say that you can spam aoe on top of it if hes sitting there reviving his ally which i agree with, but what happens when you throw it down on top of another downed thief? the downed thief can use his teleport and be revived fairly easily in the 9 seconds of stealth with out any danger of being hit by aoe.

I’m not exactly sure how to change this with out completely destroying the ability. Maybe it could be changed so that you revive people at 50% speed while you are in shadow refuge. Another option would be to cut the duration of the skill down to 6 seconds of stealth. I’m not really sure what the best course of action would be but as it stands now this ability is completely broken in WvW.

You can’t teleport out of the shadow refuge before the field barrier disappears otherwise you get revealed just like any other thief same applies when your down. I know I see guardians daily revive while tanking like 3 people its almost like they are totally confident that they wont die thats without them popping their own bubble.