Guild Wars 2

Offcourse some problems could be solved by just giving the thief normal cooldown skills like every other class instead of current initiative system.
No more spamming buttons at all anymore.
As it currently stands, a thief weaponset is good if it has one great skill.
For other classes you have a bad weaponset when it has one bad skill.
Other classes can already be glad if half their weaponskills are appropriate to the situation they are in.
A thief however can blow all his initiative on the most appropriate skills in every situation every time. And if that still fails, well he’ll just run away.

Ironvos.9014:

Offcourse some problems could be solved by just giving the thief normal cooldown skills like every other class instead of current initiative system. No more spamming buttons at all anymore.

Yes, because other classes (like, say, elementalists) can’t spam skills at all, right?

As it currently stands, a thief weaponset is good if it has one great skill.
For other classes you have a bad weaponset when it has one bad skill.

Actually, because of the limited number of weapons thieves can choose from, combined with the very limited number of viable builds which in turn emphasise completely different stats (power vs. condition damage for instance), some weapon skills are sometimes almost completely useless for certain builds. Take a look at main hand pistol or dual daggers for instance.

Other classes can already be glad if half their weaponskills are appropriate to the situation they are in.

Most other classes have more weapons to choose from. Thieves can choose sword, dagger, pistol and shortbow. That’s it. Other classes that are that limited or more (engineers and elementalists) have other mechanics that provide more diversity, their tool belts/weapon kits and attunements.

A thief however can blow all his initiative on the most appropriate skills in every situation every time.

And sometimes “most appropriate” is “not appropriate at all”.

And if that still fails, well he’ll just run away.

As intended by Anet.

D/d s/d d/p p/d and short bow are all more than viable in wvw anyway. And saying a net intended something isn’t a good argument for balance one way or another.

Ironvos.9014:

Offcourse some problems could be solved by just giving the thief normal cooldown skills like every other class instead of current initiative system.

Of course but then thieves should had another clas specific system
-we could add them pets – like rangers
-we could add them 20 skills like elementarists (with heals and condition clean and boons from skills)
Maybe something similar with virtues
-or clones on dodge and steal detonate all clones causing lool damage
-what about we change initiative on adrenaline style , and add cooldowns ( restroe hp based on how much initiative you have, add 12% flat damage, add 9% critical chance)

But of course that would make thief overpowered, and in current state is balanced.
On sPvP forums thieves were voted on position 4 or 5 ? below elementarists , mesmers , guardians , rangers

Acelerion.6820:

D/d s/d d/p p/d and short bow are all more than viable in wvw anyway.

Who said they weren’t viable? You said a thief weapon set is viable if it has one great skill. I pointed out that certain weapon skills are pretty much useless for certain builds.
This, combined with the fact that thieves don’t have that many weapons (or viable builds for that matter) to choose from, means that thieves sometimes have to go for a certain weapon set, even though many of the weapon skills are going to be of little use to them.
A great example of that is “the” d/d condition build.

And saying a net intended something isn’t a good argument for balance one way or another.

It’s a great argument against people demanding nerfs as if somehow thieves getting away and resetting a fight isn’t intended. Anet quite clearly intended thieves to be slippery.

“Who said they weren’t viable? " – No problem I misread.

To the second part Im not making claims one way or another. However, using intentions as justification for balance is not sound. Anet could have “intended” class x to be grossly overpowered or pigeonholed them into being subpar. Check out the warrior forums with the condition cleanse issues.

Intended or not thieves have the capability of resetting fights at will. That has to be considered on its own merits when talking about balance.

Laika.8795:

oZii.2864:

Heartseeker is fine, if a thief wants to blow all his ini to spam it then let him. Heartseeker is good but it isn’t great. None of the thief weapon skills require a target for you to use them. No need to make an exception for heartseeker.

It’s a fine crutch. Infiltrator Strike needs a target or it goes nowhere, whereas HS can be a gap closer, an escape, a leap finisher, and a damage skill.

It’s not all about spamming, but it’s pointless arguing because it comes right back to that.

You can still use infiltrator strike doesn’t matter that it doesn’t go anywhere. You can also target something 1200 units away and infil will move you toward the target despite its only 600 range. Either way you can still use the skill without a target.

I don’t know how its classified as a cruth just because it can be used for all of those things. The warriors shield leap can do the same thing.

Acelerion.6820:

“Who said they weren’t viable? " – No problem I misread.

To the second part Im not making claims one way or another. However, using intentions as justification for balance is not sound. Anet could have “intended” class x to be grossly overpowered or pigeonholed them into being subpar. Check out the warrior forums with the condition cleanse issues.

Intended or not thieves have the capability of resetting fights at will. That has to be considered on its own merits when talking about balance.

Then its balanced if they intended because its working as intended. The thief is suppose to dictate the pace of the fight more so than any other class in the game and it does that.

There are alot of factors in WvW that should be considered on their own merits when talking about balance but half the people don’t acknowledge them.

Like getting +5 maximum health because your server is winning.

Food buffs, Norn buffs, Mobs, there are no rings or ring outs, Are NPC’s close by,

+5% endurance regen and +5% heal effectiveness.

Nobody brings those things into discussion because people think WvW = open world deathmatch COD style, sPvP, or some fighting game. Which it is not

If we are running the same exact build I am pretty sure you would agree that getting 12% increased crit chance and +10 crit damage is a huge advantage if WvW was about 1v1’s and 1v2 and 1v3’s. Math would also prove that it is huge aswell.

I absolutely agree. The “wvw is supposed to be unbalanced” crap is a cop out and every effort should be made to balance things in that specific environment.

My point is that working as intended != balance and you can’t use one to imply the other.

Acelerion.6820:

I absolutely agree. The “wvw is supposed to be unbalanced” crap is a cop out and every effort should be made to balance things in that specific environment.

Balance for what? Large scale fights? Solo roaming? Small groups? Troll specs?

My point is that working as intended != balance and you can’t use one to imply the other.

You can use Anet’s intent for the classes to counter any “class X shouldn’t be able to do Y” statement, which is how I interpreted your “well he’ll just run away” remark.
If I interpreted it incorrectly I’d appreciate if you explained what you did mean by it.

Edit: cleared up some vague language

Balance on the small scale can imply some reasonable balance on the large scale so I’d start there. The problem is that wvw gets leftover changes from spvp and no specific attention at all. This is the biggest problem.

I’m not saying thieves shouldn’t be able to drop fights. I’m saying the balance of the class has to take these things into consideration and not just blow it off because a net said it was intended.

If a net said thieves were supposed to have the highest damage, highest defense, and best utility and mobility it would be obviously unbalanced despite being intended. That’s the only point I’m trying to make.

for all the PRO ppl out there, can they explain what use my condi build thief do if CD’s are introduced ? how i can spam my only condition skill LDB ???

Acelerion.6820:

Balance on the small scale can imply some reasonable balance on the large scale so I’d start there. The problem is that wvw gets leftover changes from spvp and no specific attention at all. This is the biggest problem.

I’m not saying thieves shouldn’t be able to drop fights. I’m saying the balance of the class has to take these things into consideration and not just blow it off because a net said it was intended.

If a net said thieves were supposed to have the highest damage, highest defense, and best utility and mobility it would be obviously unbalanced despite being intended. That’s the only point I’m trying to make.

Class balance philosophy according to A-net…

Thief:

Thieves are the masters of mobility, stealth and high single target damage. They can be very fragile if you counter their stealth with area of effects or large stacks of conditions, but they trade this fragility in order to have some of the highest burst damage in the game. They are able to help allies through traps, venoms and the mobility to flank most encounters.

Seems about right on with what they want theif to do and what they are now…

Ele

We see the elementalist as the king of versatility. The skill ceiling for the Ele is exceptional, as the ability to leverage all four attunements at the right time is crucial for understanding the elementalist. The Ele boasts some of the best team support and control abilities in the game, as well as some great area of effect damage.

That one seems further off from the current state of eles… Ele currently enjoys extreme mobility/survival… in addition to the above…

DanH.5879:

for all the PRO ppl out there, can they explain what use my condi build thief do if CD’s are introduced ? how i can spam my only condition skill LDB ???

They won’t put CD’s on thief so don’t worry… ini is thief’s unique class mechanic.

Acelerion.6820:

Balance on the small scale can imply some reasonable balance on the large scale so I’d start there.

The problem is, the thieves you and other people appear to be complaining about are ineffective in large scale combat. So again, what do we balance for?

The problem is that wvw gets leftover changes from spvp and no specific attention at all. This is the biggest problem.

Sure, WvW is considered pve by Anet. You can’t just switch to considering it PvP, though, without actually implementing PvP gear limitations.

I’m not saying thieves shouldn’t be able to drop fights. I’m saying the balance of the class has to take these things into consideration and not just blow it off because a net said it was intended.

But how do you “balance” for someone leaving a fight?

If a net said thieves were supposed to have the highest damage, highest defense, and best utility and mobility it would be obviously unbalanced despite being intended. That’s the only point I’m trying to make.

I understand what you’re saying. What I’m saying is that these “should” statements make no sense when it’s anet who decides what should and shouldn’t be. If they deem that thieves should be able to get away from a fight then that’s part of their definition of the thief class. Obviously they didn’t think it would be unbalanced, and neither do I. [edit]Because the only time that’s actually an issue is if you either continue to pursue the troll spec thief, or you’re soloing and continue with your business as if he’s gone.[/edit]

The actual “should” statements that are relevant here is the idea that you “should” be able to set the terms on a fight when engaging a thief, and that you “should” be able to kill them when you’ve got them cornered. Sorry, they’re thieves. They’re slippery. Like Anet says.

DanH.5879:

for all the PRO ppl out there, can they explain what use my condi build thief do if CD’s are introduced ? how i can spam my only condition skill LDB ???

You can always spam your SB blast finisher in a combo field… oh, wait :\

Acelerion.6820:

I absolutely agree. The “wvw is supposed to be unbalanced” crap is a cop out and every effort should be made to balance things in that specific environment.

My point is that working as intended != balance and you can’t use one to imply the other.

Still didnt address the point I made about the 12% extra crit chance and +10 crit damage

The +5% extra endurance regen, +5 healing effectiveness, +5% maximum health just because my server is winning.

You think people would say sPvP was balanced if it allowed food buffs as long as you had the gold to buy them? Or the Server bonuses given in WvW, where given to people that had the highest rank in sPvP just because they have a higher rank?

I’m going to cap a camp your going to cap the same camp. We meet at the ruins OMG. I have all those bonuses and you don’t, mathematically this fight that is about to happen is not balanced.

How do we balance this engagement? Remove food buffs, make sure everyone is equal in gear, Remove server bonuses for the winning side.

I don’t see it as a cop out I see it as WvW, the majority of changes that happen in WvW especially balance ones are ones that effect objectives. Like pets destroying siege being able to climb walls, line of sight to mesmer (questionable but nobody really qq’s about it anymore) pets rezing a dead mesmer on keep so after everyone leaves he can portal people in. Portal numbers reduced to 20 cap, not being able to use a portal entrance or exit that is on the other side of the wall. Cloak and dagger over and over on keep walls to maintain infinite stealth. Though you can still cloak and dagger a wall. You just cant stay in stealth and cloak and dagger repeatedly over and over never revealing yourself.

I wouldn’t go as far to say that WvW is suppose to be unbalanced just a different kind of balance, small engagements matter but in the bigger picture with so many variables in WvW whatever this type of balance is Anet feels it is fine.

I suppose that the final argument has to be that thieves are supposed to be opd in WvWvW to make up for pve.

Columba.9730:

I suppose that the final argument has to be that thieves are supposed to be opd in WvWvW to make up for pve.

Except that they aren’t OP in WvW nor UP in PvE.
We just have a ton of people in WvW who lack the mere basics of PvP aka anti-burst skills, and a ton of noob thieves in PvE who can’t do anything but think their class as a WoW rogue and fail terribly at anything remotely challenging whereas my Thief runs 40+ fracty singlehandedly.

Why is it I wreck Thieves in bunches?
I’m not even one of those asians with mad gaming skillz, I just happen to slot my invuls/blocks and 2shot thieves while blocking their stuff.

The only point of unfairness Thieves have in WvW is the pre-loaded CnD+steal which is mostly impossible to dodge unless you’ve totally seen it coming.
But once you hear the “clang” of CnD on your armor if you don’t hit the block/invul button you’re to blame.

Red Falcon.8257:

Columba.9730:

I suppose that the final argument has to be that thieves are supposed to be opd in WvWvW to make up for pve.

Except that they aren’t OP in WvW nor UP in PvE.
We just have a ton of people in WvW who lack the mere basics of PvP aka anti-burst skills,

false….
Thief as it is makes most builds unviable….nuff said.

And if you just manage to survive initial burst….
They just can escape with almost no effort.

No risk/easy reward the apotheosys of unbalance

and a ton of noob thieves in PvE who can’t do anything but think their class as a WoW rogue and fail terribly at anything remotely challenging whereas my Thief runs 40+ fracty singlehandedly.

this is true…..
I m quite tired of seeing thieves in fotm facetanking things and dying of downed penalty after you burnt all your cooldowns to ress them.

Sometimes you find some good that roves how the class can be efficient…..

Why is it I wreck Thieves in bunches?

because you accept the universal law that building against thieves is fair.
builds > skill against this class.

I just happen to slot my invuls/blocks and 2shot thieves while blocking their stuff.

exactly as i said……

Having a response to burst damage isn’t only useful against thieves… EVERY class can burst and you should be prepared for that situation.

Aberrant.6749:

Having a response to burst damage isn’t only useful against thieves… EVERY class can burst and you should be prepared for that situation.

you can react to other classes actually.

Just waste few minutes to browse other classes section for www.

Almost any build tells “add some vitality to survive thieves”….

Quite significant if you ask me.

LordByron.8369:

Aberrant.6749:

Having a response to burst damage isn’t only useful against thieves… EVERY class can burst and you should be prepared for that situation.

you can react to other classes actually.

Just waste few minutes to browse other classes section for www.

Almost any build tells “add some vitality to survive thieves”….

Quite significant if you ask me.

That is just building against burst damage. Not necessarily thieves most people still think thieves have the highest burst damage in the game. Also the thief is suppose to be able to sneak and flank targets, hop in and out of combat. No other profession can do that better than a thief and that is what a thief is suppose to do.

What you guys are faily to grasp about the “building against thieves” being different from the regular “building against burst” is the fact that since other classes are actually visible with all their high-damage skills, people can counter burst through use of active skills like dodging, blocking, blind, interrupts, etc.

Against a thief, we have to guess when you hit steal, backstab, etc. and that’s assuming you came at us from a direction we were looking on our screen and not already stealthed from hitting someone/something else nearby.

I don’t have to stack vitality/toughness to survive a glass cannon warrior. I can simply see and react to his burst attempts.

Being the best at jumping in and being the best at jumping out of battle is per se too much and the most unbalanced thing.

After that also the fact of being able to pull out an unreactable burst that some builds/classes cannot react to.

its not because you like a concept that make a class with just lot of advantages and almost no drawback.

Thief is squishy? i don t think so……thief is squishy because players build it squishy being too good at jumping in and out….they are leather not light.

Just watch out how anet said warriors + food was OP because they could build GC with no drawback….
Well the same works with thieves….they have just strong points and no drawback.

Mobility OR stealth + burst would be balanced.
Mobility+stealth+burst its not.

Sebrent.3625:

What you guys are faily to grasp about the “building against thieves” being different from the regular “building against burst” is the fact that since other classes are actually visible with all their high-damage skills, people can counter burst through use of active skills like dodging, blocking, blind, interrupts, etc.

Against a thief, we have to guess when you hit steal, backstab, etc. and that’s assuming you came at us from a direction we were looking on our screen and not already stealthed from hitting someone/something else nearby.

I don’t have to stack vitality/toughness to survive a glass cannon warrior. I can simply see and react to his burst attempts.

I dont think us guys are failing to grasp anything I think we know that stealth makes us invisible.

LordByron.8369:

Being the best at jumping in and being the best at jumping out of battle is per se too much and the most unbalanced thing.

After that also the fact of being able to pull out an unreactable burst that some builds/classes cannot react to.

its not because you like a concept that make a class with just lot of advantages and almost no drawback.

Thief is squishy? i don t think so……thief is squishy because players build it squishy being too good at jumping in and out….they are leather not light.

Just watch out how anet said warriors + food was OP because they could build GC with no drawback….
Well the same works with thieves….they have just strong points and no drawback.

Mobility OR stealth + burst would be balanced.
Mobility+stealth+burst its not.

A thief is squishy because its squishy. I can roll p/d in full carrion but I am still squishy. Just because I have 20k hp doesn’t mean I am not squishy. If you roll p/d full apothecary your not as squishy you just have like 12khp and dont do alot with your condition damage but you heal good. Then your basically a troll build.

Just roll sword/pistol and pistol/pistol or shortbow and take no stealth abilities all knights gear. See how well that plays out for you. Can you do it yes but you pretty much became a warrior with crappy damage who has to go sit in the back when your cooldowns arent up.

Sebrent.3625:

oZii.2864:

Sebrent.3625:

What you guys are faily to grasp about the “building against thieves” being different from the regular “building against burst” is the fact that since other classes are actually visible with all their high-damage skills, people can counter burst through use of active skills like dodging, blocking, blind, interrupts, etc.

Against a thief, we have to guess when you hit steal, backstab, etc. and that’s assuming you came at us from a direction we were looking on our screen and not already stealthed from hitting someone/something else nearby.

I don’t have to stack vitality/toughness to survive a glass cannon warrior. I can simply see and react to his burst attempts.

I dont think us guys are failing to grasp anything I think we know that stealth makes us invisible.

Yes, Cynical, but that wasn’t the point. I’m glad you are emphasizing your continued lack of understanding though.

It’s that there is only one class in the game that requires people to stack toughness/vitality if they want to be able to fight against several of its builds … that one class is Thief.

Why is it that Thief is able to force people this way? Because Thief has very good burst with zero visuals. What’s worse is that it’s spammable.

But hey, as you admitted in that screenshot I posted earlier, you can’t think of a thief build that isn’t just spamming some ability.

Such a hard class, lol. Pick build, spam something, stealth and run if it fails. Lol.

This is why I was able to do better after 5 minutes on a Thief than on a warrior after a week.

Yes you spam something auto-attack, your high damage dealer, something its the way initiative works those abilities that are spammed don’t compare to the other abilites classes with cooldowns have. I can’t think of any thief weapon skill that would warrant a cooldown when compared to the other classes because if you look at them individually and compare each weapon skill of a thief to each weapon skill of other classes they pretty much suck. Initiative system is the only reason they don’t suck.

That also was the point of your post you know that you can’t see a thief that is about to burst you. See how you highlighted zero visuals. Or thats not the point of that post either?

Putting on vitality and toughness isn’t because of thieves lol is that your argument that the only reason people take those 2 stats is because of thieves?

The argument that all the skills that are on cooldowns are so much more powerful than thief skills that use initiative is absurd. Go take a look at the various skills out there. You’ll find both good, average, and bad skills on the various weapon sets all with cooldowns.

As far as being tanky in Knights … plenty of those Thief vs Zerg videos show Thieves in Knight’s gear doing great damage. Heck, in the Mesmer forum we have Grimm/SevenMirror who runs in Knight’s gear and does quite well. Knight’s has good damage. It’s not Berserker power and crit dmg but you have a ton of damage mitigation in Knight’s. The fact that you’re a Thief doesn’t magically change how the same gear available to everyone works.

I never said that Thieves are the only reason people take toughness/vitality. However, Thief is the only class where people’s advice is to take those stats so you can fight against the Thief. The reason the advice is so is, as I and others previously mentioned, because you can’t see some of the Thief’s burst so reacting to it is a non-option outside of guessing (lol).

Heck, non-stealth, compare Steal as a closer to Bull’s Charge. I see that warrior sliding towards me. The Thief simply changes from up to 900 range (1,200 traited) from me to instantly next to me. Elementalist Ride the Lightning, Ranger Swoop, etc. are just like Bull’s Charge. People see them.

Sebrent.3625:

The argument that all the skills that are on cooldowns are so much more powerful than thief skills that use initiative is absurd. Go take a look at the various skills out there. You’ll find both good, average, and bad skills on the various weapon sets all with cooldowns.

As far as being tanky in Knights … plenty of those Thief vs Zerg videos show Thieves in Knight’s gear doing great damage. Heck, in the Mesmer forum we have Grimm/SevenMirror who runs in Knight’s gear and does quite well. Knight’s has good damage. It’s not Berserker power and crit dmg but you have a ton of damage mitigation in Knight’s. The fact that you’re a Thief doesn’t magically change how the same gear available to everyone works.

I never said that Thieves are the only reason people take toughness/vitality. However, Thief is the only class where people’s advice is to take those stats so you can fight against the Thief. The reason the advice is so is, as I and others previously mentioned, because you can’t see some of the Thief’s burst so reacting to it is a non-option outside of guessing (lol).

Heck, non-stealth, compare Steal as a closer to Bull’s Charge. I see that warrior sliding towards me. The Thief simply changes from up to 900 range (1,200 traited) from me to instantly next to me. Elementalist Ride the Lightning, Ranger Swoop, etc. are just like Bull’s Charge. People see them.

Actually it does, I said the thief then become a warrior but with crappy damage that has to sit in the back when cooldowns aren’t up. You have a thief go grab a Sword/pistol and pistol/pistol no stealth skills in some knights gear. You basically become a warrior with crappy damage. A person can pretty much walk out of pistolwhip and not take any real damage that they wouldn’t from the auto attack.

The gear does change how it works depending on your class because how effective that gear is depends on your class and your build. Its why you know zerker warriors have 20k hp and zerker thieves have 11-12k hp.

If you don’t consider your professions base value hp into your builds then I don’t what to tell you.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Armor I am all for helping out the uninformed though.

Defense ratings
light
920
medium
1064
heavy
1211

You know in the mist there is light, medium, and heavy golems hmmmm I wonder why they did that. I mean knight gear is knights gear right?

oZii.2864:

A thief is squishy because its squishy. I can roll p/d in full carrion but I am still squishy. Just because I have 20k hp doesn’t mean I am not squishy. If you roll p/d full apothecary your not as squishy you just have like 12khp and dont do alot with your condition damage but you heal good. Then your basically a troll build.

Just roll sword/pistol and pistol/pistol or shortbow and take no stealth abilities all knights gear. See how well that plays out for you. Can you do it yes but you pretty much became a warrior with crappy damage who has to go sit in the back when your cooldowns arent up.

no need there are actually a lot of good thieves that plays balanced and tanky builds…

Nobody gaves credit to them because if ther is actually a build ith no risk and huge rewards, less OP builds becomes worthless.

I saw those on this forum, on youtube and in action in www and fotm last weekend…..

So no i don t buy it….

LordByron.8369:

oZii.2864:

A thief is squishy because its squishy. I can roll p/d in full carrion but I am still squishy. Just because I have 20k hp doesn’t mean I am not squishy. If you roll p/d full apothecary your not as squishy you just have like 12khp and dont do alot with your condition damage but you heal good. Then your basically a troll build.

Just roll sword/pistol and pistol/pistol or shortbow and take no stealth abilities all knights gear. See how well that plays out for you. Can you do it yes but you pretty much became a warrior with crappy damage who has to go sit in the back when your cooldowns arent up.

no need there are actually a lot of good thieves that plays balanced and tanky builds…

Nobody gaves credit to them because if ther is actually a build ith no risk and huge rewards, less OP builds becomes worthless.

I saw those on this forum, on youtube and in action in www and fotm last weekend…..

So no i don t buy it….

Why not its not hard take a thief run S/P and P/P build tanky/balanced and go play. No stealth skills. What I am proposing is not impossible. There is a reason alot of people will tell you that S/P and P/P are the weakest weapon sets.

I havent seen alot of tanky/balanced builds for S/P and P/P that don’t have a stealth skill in utility bar or the heal. I fought 1 decent S/P thief before and its the same as with all the thief weapon sets.

Run in Dump your load with pistol whip or unload add haste either move to the back of your group/zerg or stealth to get away. If you want to do that style just roll d/d full glass.

actually i found a new build that seems OP. Tanky and very good dps/burst
I roll wvw like a hot knife trough butter
waiting for nerf
/sarcasm

You rolled a warrior?

Hey Cynical, I’m well-aware of how toughness works. I’m also aware that Mesmers (light armor) are doing quite well in Knight’s armor … as I previously posted. Watch some of SevenMirror’s stuff.

There are also Engineers and Rangers that are wearing +toughness gear.

If you actually know what the differences are between light, medium, and heavy armor it’s a ~14% difference between light and heavy. ~7% difference between medium and heavy. So what’s the issue here? for every 100 damage you’d take, a warrior takes 93. 1,000 to you is 930 to the warrior. Oh no, he took 70 less damage than you. I guess that warrants you being stealth for a majority of the fight while he has to stay visible and dodge roll attacks from people that can actually see him, lol. Just like Rangers, Engineers, Necros, Elementalists, etc. do.

But yeah … If you could backstab a Thief for 10,000 damage, you’d only backstab the warrior in the same set of gear for 9,300. Lol! You sure told me! :-p

Laika.8795:

You rolled a warrior?

Im guess thief in full clerics zerg slaying!!

Sebrent.3625:

Hey Cynical, I’m well-aware of how toughness works. I’m also aware that Mesmers (light armor) are doing quite well in Knight’s armor … as I previously posted. Watch some of SevenMirror’s stuff.

There are also Engineers and Rangers that are wearing +toughness gear.

If you actually know what the differences are between light, medium, and heavy armor it’s a ~14% difference between light and heavy. ~7% difference between medium and heavy. So what’s the issue here? for every 100 damage you’d take, a warrior takes 93. 1,000 to you is 930 to the warrior. Oh no, he took 70 less damage than you. I guess that warrants you being stealth for a majority of the fight while he has to stay visible and dodge roll attacks from people that can actually see him, lol. Just like Rangers, Engineers, Necros, Elementalists, etc. do.

But yeah … If you could backstab a Thief for 10,000 damage, you’d only backstab the warrior in the same set of gear for 9,300. Lol! You sure told me! :-p

Well if you know the difference don’t make a blanket statement that armor doesn’t change how it works just because I am a thief then I wouldn’t think you are you know uninformed.

That warrior also (assuming full zerkers) would have about 11,700 hp left over the thief would have 1k hp left. [insert 12 year old smiley face thing.]

Sebrent.3625:

Hey Cynical, I’m well-aware of how toughness works. I’m also aware that Mesmers (light armor) are doing quite well in Knight’s armor … as I previously posted. Watch some of SevenMirror’s stuff.

There are also Engineers and Rangers that are wearing +toughness gear.

If you actually know what the differences are between light, medium, and heavy armor it’s a ~14% difference between light and heavy. ~7% difference between medium and heavy. So what’s the issue here? for every 100 damage you’d take, a warrior takes 93. 1,000 to you is 930 to the warrior. Oh no, he took 70 less damage than you. I guess that warrants you being stealth for a majority of the fight while he has to stay visible and dodge roll attacks from people that can actually see him, lol. Just like Rangers, Engineers, Necros, Elementalists, etc. do.

But yeah … If you could backstab a Thief for 10,000 damage, you’d only backstab the warrior in the same set of gear for 9,300. Lol! You sure told me! :-p

Yeah no. When I build for survivability and some GC warrior can insta-down me with his Whirlwind attack, I think that my class might be squishy.

It doesn’t change how it works. You have a different base hp/armor than a warrior, that’s a duh that I don’t think I should have to cover every time.

You wearing full Knight’s makes you have almost the same damage mitigation as the warrior and the difference, as shown, is negligible.

You can try to nitpick the language I use. I’ll stick with the fact that your arguments that [(1) A thief can’t be tanky & (2) You can’t do damage in knight’s gear] were another fallacy.

Sebrent.3625:

I’ll stick with the fact that your arguments that [(1) A thief can’t be tanky & (2) You can’t do damage in knight’s gear] were another fallacy.

That’s funny. Straw man arguments are a fallacy too.

oZii.2864:

LordByron.8369:

Being the best at jumping in and being the best at jumping out of battle is per se too much and the most unbalanced thing.

After that also the fact of being able to pull out an unreactable burst that some builds/classes cannot react to.

its not because you like a concept that make a class with just lot of advantages and almost no drawback.

Thief is squishy? i don t think so……thief is squishy because players build it squishy being too good at jumping in and out….they are leather not light.

Just watch out how anet said warriors + food was OP because they could build GC with no drawback….
Well the same works with thieves….they have just strong points and no drawback.

Mobility OR stealth + burst would be balanced.
Mobility+stealth+burst its not.

A thief is squishy because its squishy. I can roll p/d in full carrion but I am still squishy. Just because I have 20k hp doesn’t mean I am not squishy. If you roll p/d full apothecary your not as squishy you just have like 12khp and dont do alot with your condition damage but you heal good. Then your basically a troll build.

Just roll sword/pistol and pistol/pistol or shortbow and take no stealth abilities all knights gear. See how well that plays out for you. Can you do it yes but you pretty much became a warrior with crappy damage who has to go sit in the back when your cooldowns arent up.

Thieves have medium armor and good toughness. They aren’t squishy.

Except he did say those things, magicthighs … which makes it not a Straw man argument.

oZii.2864:

A thief is squishy because its squishy. I can roll p/d in full carrion but I am still squishy. Just because I have 20k hp doesn’t mean I am not squishy. If you roll p/d full apothecary your not as squishy you just have like 12khp and dont do alot with your condition damage but you heal good. Then your basically a troll build.

Just roll sword/pistol and pistol/pistol or shortbow and take no stealth abilities all knights gear. See how well that plays out for you. Can you do it yes but you pretty much became a warrior with crappy damage who has to go sit in the back when your cooldowns arent up.

A thief is squishy because they are wearing squishy gear … works the same for all classes (imagine that!).

You can do very good damage wearing all Knight’s gear (several people out there do this with several classes, including Thief).

He claims otherwise. Since there is evidence in several videos out there that contradicts his claims, his claims are fallacy.

Since he did make those claims, this isn’t a straw man argument.

Nice try but failed execution.

Ok look Sebrent in your imaginary world of duels, and balancing based of 1v1’s and 1v2’s with no boundaries, no ring outs, and no food buffs, etc thief is one of the best dueling classes. I don’t think many would argue against that. Good thing there is no dueling in this game. So maybe you should find a game with dueling or something. This balance you seek with every class is capable of every type of role is not guild wars 2. Might be time to look for a new MMO coming out.

Sebrent.3625:

Except he did say those things, magicthighs … which makes it not a Straw man argument.

oZii.2864:

A thief is squishy because its squishy. I can roll p/d in full carrion but I am still squishy. Just because I have 20k hp doesn’t mean I am not squishy. If you roll p/d full apothecary your not as squishy you just have like 12khp and dont do alot with your condition damage but you heal good. Then your basically a troll build.

Just roll sword/pistol and pistol/pistol or shortbow and take no stealth abilities all knights gear. See how well that plays out for you. Can you do it yes but you pretty much became a warrior with crappy damage who has to go sit in the back when your cooldowns arent up

A thief is squishy because they are wearing squishy gear … works the same for all classes (imagine that!).

You can do very good damage wearing all Knight’s gear (several people out there do this with several classes, including Thief).

He claims otherwise. Since there is evidence in several videos out there that contradicts his claims, his claims are fallacy.

Since he did make those claims, this isn’t a straw man argument.

Nice try but failed execution.

l2R I hate to say but seriously. I never said you can’t do damage in knights gear. I said if you roll S/P and P/P and shortbow in all knight gear you would become a warrior with crappy damage.

Where did I say knights gear does no damage?

In order to do damage with S/P you have to keep the target in place to spam pistol whip.

What difference does it make if knights gear does the same damage as beserker gear if you don’t have a target to hit?

Here’s the thing, Cynical, everyone can get those bonuses, food, oils, etc.

It isn’t just duels that Thieves are pulling off crazy crap, it’s in skirmishes as well in on the periphery of large fights.

I have not asked for every class to have everything other classes do. I simply think the Thief should adhere to some of the basic tenets of the game that others have to.

I also think that the Thief provides far too easy rewards for very little skill or risk (depending on what level you’re playing at).

As I’ve said before, Thieves are not a problem for me personally.

They are a problem in the game in that they alone force the meta (see: taking toughness/vitality).

They are a problem in that they have high damage attacks that have no visual or audio cues to give people even a 0.5 sec to react; instead forcing people to guess when to do so.

They are a problem in that they are “supposed to spam” (as stated in your post), which is just bad gameplay in a game that is supposed to be esport quality.

They are a problem in the fact that a good thief can continue to lose a fight while continuing to threaten your character (reset, come back, reset, come back, etc.)

These are not problems with any of the 7 other classes. They are a problem with Thieves alone.

Sebrent.3625:

Except he did say those things, magicthighs … which makes it not a Straw man argument.

oZii.2864:

A thief is squishy because its squishy. I can roll p/d in full carrion but I am still squishy. Just because I have 20k hp doesn’t mean I am not squishy. If you roll p/d full apothecary your not as squishy you just have like 12khp and dont do alot with your condition damage but you heal good. Then your basically a troll build.

Just roll sword/pistol and pistol/pistol or shortbow and take no stealth abilities all knights gear. See how well that plays out for you. Can you do it yes but you pretty much became a warrior with crappy damage who has to go sit in the back when your cooldowns arent up.

A thief is squishy because they are wearing squishy gear … works the same for all classes (imagine that!).

You can do very good damage wearing all Knight’s gear (several people out there do this with several classes, including Thief).

He claims otherwise. Since there is evidence in several videos out there that contradicts his claims, his claims are fallacy.

Since he did make those claims, this isn’t a straw man argument.

Nice try but failed execution.

oZii.2864 didn’t say those things at all. Here’s what you claim he said:

Sebrent.3625:

(1) A thief can’t be tanky & (2) You can’t do damage in knight’s gear

Nowhere in the bit you quoted does oZii make those claims.

oZii.2864:

oZii.2864:

Just roll sword/pistol and pistol/pistol or shortbow and take no stealth abilities all knights gear. See how well that plays out for you. Can you do it yes but you pretty much became a warrior with crappy damage who has to go sit in the back when your cooldowns arent up

l2R I hate to say but seriously. I never said you can’t do damage in knights gear. I said if you roll S/P and P/P and shortbow in all knight gear you would become a warrior with crappy damage.

Where did I say knights gear does no damage?

See above, I used bold to make it easy on you.
Saying that is the same thing; just more long-winded with your version.
Also, you expanded the whole “tanky thief” to be “tanky thief with no stealth”. No one has said anything about completely taking away stealth.

oZii.2864:

In order to do damage with S/P you have to keep the target in place to spam pistol whip.

What difference does it make if knights gear does the same damage as beserker gear if you don’t have a target to hit?

I’m sorry, but when did wearing Knight’s gear instead of Berserker make you less able to keep a target in place? Lol.

Also, I’m amused that the tactic with sword+pistol is “spam pistol whip”. Especially since we’ve already covered that the other Thief tactics are:

• spam cloak & dagger + sneak attack
• spam cloak & dagger + backstab
• spam heartseeker (preferably after a C&D + backstab … but noob on noob this works)

Sebrent.3625:

Here’s the thing, Cynical, everyone can get those bonuses, food, oils, etc.

It isn’t just duels that Thieves are pulling off crazy crap, it’s in skirmishes as well in on the periphery of large fights.

I have not asked for every class to have everything other classes do. I simply think the Thief should adhere to some of the basic tenets of the game that others have to.

I also think that the Thief provides far too easy rewards for very little skill or risk (depending on what level you’re playing at).

As I’ve said before, Thieves are not a problem for me personally.

They are a problem in the game in that they alone force the meta (see: taking toughness/vitality).

They are a problem in that they have high damage attacks that have no visual or audio cues to give people even a 0.5 sec to react; instead forcing people to guess when to do so.

They are a problem in that they are “supposed to spam” (as stated in your post), which is just bad gameplay in a game that is supposed to be esport quality.

They are a problem in the fact that a good thief can continue to lose a fight while continuing to threaten your character (reset, come back, reset, come back, etc.)

These are not problems with any of the 7 other classes. They are a problem with Thieves alone.

WvW is suppose to be a esport? I thought that was mentioned for sPvP where thieves are not top of the food chain.

How do they force the meta of taking toughness and vitality? Necro’s and mesmers forcing me to take condition removal I think they need a nerf! The burst from p/d condition thieves is definitely a problem.

To you thats the same as knights gear doesn’t do damage? You gotta be kidding me right lol.

I never said that knights gear makes you better at keeping people in place than zerker gear.

Seriously, what are you reading what you want? Some one else read it right (outside opinon) but you read it wrong now your trying make claims that you read it right. Rofl.

Go try it with S/P pistol if you find it amusing. Tell me how it goes for you as you mix it up with warriors, guardians, ele’s in melee range duking it out old fashion style with S/P that blackpowder is really going to save you there!

oZii.2864:

WvW is suppose to be a esport? I thought that was mentioned for sPvP where thieves are not top of the food chain.

Same classes and same skills. Anything one class can do differently in WvW (food, etc.) another can do as well.

We’ve already gone over why Thieves aren’t top of the food chain in sPvP … it’s largely due to the inability to contest a point while stealthed coupled with the thief’s apparent dependence on stealth.

oZii.2864:

How do they force the meta of taking toughness and vitality? Necro’s and mesmers forcing me to take condition removal I think they need a nerf! The burst from p/d condition thieves is definitely a problem.

This would be a good point if it wasn’t true that every class in the game can run a condition build (except Guardians … another design failure in my opinion).

oZii.2864:

To you thats the same as knights gear doesn’t do damage? You gotta be kidding me right lol.

Yes. If I say “put on X gear and this weapon and you’ll do crap damage”, that’s how people would interpret it. In fact, those posts are all over the forums about various things and that’s how people interpret them.

oZii.2864:

I never said that knights gear makes you better at keeping people in place than zerker gear.

Yes, I know you didn’t. However, in the discussion of Knight’s gear doing damage, you brought up that sword+pistol requires that you need to keep your target in place and that Knight’s doesn’t matter if you don’t have a target (scroll up). I simply replied that I wasn’t aware that Knight’s affected that since the topic was “Thief in Knight’s gear” or, more generally, “tanky thief”. Neither of those affects keeping a target in place for pistol whip.

oZii.2864:

Seriously, what are you reading what you want? Some one else read it right (outside opinon) but you read it wrong now your trying make claims that you read it right. Rofl.

Honestly, given the above, I’m wondering this about you. You were the one that brought up “you must keep them in place to do damage” … not me.

oZii.2864:

Go try it with S/P pistol if you find it amusing. Tell me how it goes for you as you mix it up with warriors, guardians, ele’s in melee range duking it out old fashion style with S/P that blackpowder is really going to save you there!

I don’t believe I’ve said anything about Sword+Pistol thieves pretending to be warriors.
This is a great example of straw man though.

That is how you interpret it I never said knight’s gear doesn’t do damage. Given the weapon set of P/P and S/P and Bow you become a warrior with crappy damage. How did you interpret that as knights gear doesn’t do damage?

How is it a example of straw man when I brought up S/P and knights gear not replying to you? In order to effectively gauge how well a thief can be tanky you have to you know take damage? That is why I said S/P, P/P, and Bow those are the weapon sets that don’t rely on stealth for big damage. Using stealth is not tanking damage that is avoidance. That isn’t straw man at all.