Guild Wars 2

Yasha.5963:

Please consider looking at the issue of Thieves-evading-indefinitely-under-water. There was a thread in the spvp forum on this that got locked because the mod said we had to talk about all theif issues here. Below is the link to the thread. As a summary though:

“I have seen time and time again a single thief holding off a group underwater, with just “evade, evade, evade, evade, evade”. They just sit on the point and spam the evade skill, its silly really.

Also yes I always attack from range- just means I lose the point quicker thief just evades everything I throw at them.

The only way i can see taking one down is to time a stun followed by a one-shot type attack just as the skill ends. However, since there is no CD and given good initiative regen, it seems almost impossible to pull this off (even if you had said stun and one-shot skill).”

Details on this link:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Thieves-evading-indefinitely-under-water/first#post867071

By the way just some feedback: locking all discussion on thief and making us post here-where we cannot properly track or discuss separate issues makes me pretty mad.

Har har har.

Evading indefinitely? Just like other classes we only have 2 evades with the uncommon Vigor boon on us.

Our evade attacks consume quite a lot of Initiative and aren’t infinite.

So yeah.

Wobels.1679:

So i have been lvling a thief and here is what i have noticed if try to melee at low lvls you get slaughtered. The short bow is the only viable weapon for lvling at lower lvls when u melee it requires you to stealth which resets mobs so their health regens. Its pretty tuff to do melee compared to my warrior or guardian an even my ranger. Anyways im not complaining cause once you get traits unlocked it becomes a better option to run daggers but at the beginning say 10-40ish i have noticed your way to squishy to melee. Thats just my opinion after lvling 3 other professions to 80.

I had the same issues. Right before i hit 20, i had problems meleeing but with an extra utility open and a weapon combo of dagger/pistol + dagger/dagger, i can stay in melee 1vs1 as long as i like due to pistol’s blind.

Steal
Cooldown 45 second – too big cooldown compared to other professions.
35 second – ideal number, 27 second with full Trickery line

Mug – Too much damage to Adept trait. Need to reduce the damage by 30-50%.

Professoin:
Warriors – Whirling Axe – awesome
Necromancer – Skull Fear – awesome
Thief – Blinding Tuft – awesome
Guardian – Mace Head Crack – awesome
Mesmer – Consume Ectoplasm – awesome
Ranger – Healing Seed – awesome
Elementalist – Ice Shard Stab – awesome
Engineer – Throw Gunk – totally useless and break stealth
Thieves simply can not use a professional skill against the engineers. You need to replace this useless Junk on Big Ol ’Bomb.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Big_Ol%27_Bomb

SSVAV.5862:

Yasha.5963:

Please consider looking at the issue of Thieves-evading-indefinitely-under-water. There was a thread in the spvp forum on this that got locked because the mod said we had to talk about all theif issues here. Below is the link to the thread. As a summary though:

“I have seen time and time again a single thief holding off a group underwater, with just “evade, evade, evade, evade, evade”. They just sit on the point and spam the evade skill, its silly really.

Also yes I always attack from range- just means I lose the point quicker thief just evades everything I throw at them.

The only way i can see taking one down is to time a stun followed by a one-shot type attack just as the skill ends. However, since there is no CD and given good initiative regen, it seems almost impossible to pull this off (even if you had said stun and one-shot skill).”

Details on this link:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Thieves-evading-indefinitely-under-water/first#post867071

By the way just some feedback: locking all discussion on thief and making us post here-where we cannot properly track or discuss separate issues makes me pretty mad.

Har har har.

Evading indefinitely? Just like other classes we only have 2 evades with the uncommon Vigor boon on us.

Our evade attacks consume quite a lot of Initiative and aren’t infinite.

So yeah.

See? This is the extent of discussion to be expected when you censor all discussion in other threads and funnel it into one gobbly-kitten thread on the thief sub-forum.

Anyone who has played spvp for a while knows that there is a high intiative regen build that can spam spear 5 to evade almost indefinately, filling in the gaps with dodging and stealth if absolutely necessary.

I have often seen 1 thief hold off a group on the point underwater and have sparred with thieves using the build attacking them from range for extended periods.

When I first saw it I actually thought it was a hack, then when I realized that it was a legit build I thought the thief was really skillful, then after seeing the same thing again and again and talking to the players (theives using the skill) about it I realized it was just an OP ability/build that a thief of any ability level can use.

If you havn’t found out how to do it as a thief I suggest you give it a go.

Hi there Charles, long time listener first time poster…

Not sure if it’s already been suggested, but I think being able to trait pistols to pierce (either on all shots for a Master trait, or possibly on dual weapon skills for a Minor) would go a long way towards making dual pistols a viable build, and may reduce the reliance on shortbow as the dedicated secondary/ranged choice for thieves.

And just on a side note, great work on steal. I didn’t think it was going to tickle my fancy when I first saw it, but it’s ended up being an excellent mechanic.

Yasha.5963:

Please consider looking at the issue of Thieves-evading-indefinitely-under-water. There was a thread in the spvp forum on this that got locked because the mod said we had to talk about all theif issues here. Below is the link to the thread. As a summary though:

“I have seen time and time again a single thief holding off a group underwater, with just “evade, evade, evade, evade, evade”. They just sit on the point and spam the evade skill, its silly really.

Also yes I always attack from range- just means I lose the point quicker thief just evades everything I throw at them.

The only way i can see taking one down is to time a stun followed by a one-shot type attack just as the skill ends. However, since there is no CD and given good initiative regen, it seems almost impossible to pull this off (even if you had said stun and one-shot skill).”

Details on this link:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Thieves-evading-indefinitely-under-water/first#post867071

By the way just some feedback: locking all discussion on thief and making us post here-where we cannot properly track or discuss separate issues makes me pretty mad.

It pisses me off as well. The mods just want to clean up the forums by dumping all issues to the ignore thread.

On topic, I assume he’s using a combination of Shadow assault, flanking strike, and dodge roll. I don’t know if other classes have an underwater AoE, but consider sending a warrior or guardian there to block his attacks, and then lock him in place and wipe the seas clean of his presence.

Issues with the thief class

- perma evade underwater
- the restealth debuff neededs to be longer (+2 more seconds)
- Heartseeker covers too much ground
- Heartseeker should do less damage after multiple uses
- The damage on steal is too high
- Auto attack damage is too high on dagger and shortbow (why does a thief do more damage than a ranger with a shortbow if they are both specced for damage?)
- Quickness should be removed from the thief class

• Stomp unstealth the thief*

The thief is all reward with little risk. The stealth mechanic makes good players nearly impossible to hit so the thief, unlike other classes, can spec pure damage and safe.

It should be no surprise that the two classes most complained about in PvP are the two classes that can shake targeting. When considering the damage on a class the ability of their opponent to do damage back should be considered. Given that stealth is so easy to achieve in this game the damage available to the thief reflect that fact (i.e. high defense = lower damage).

SSVAV.5862:

Yasha.5963:

Please consider looking at the issue of Thieves-evading-indefinitely-under-water. There was a thread in the spvp forum on this that got locked because the mod said we had to talk about all theif issues here. Below is the link to the thread. As a summary though:

“I have seen time and time again a single thief holding off a group underwater, with just “evade, evade, evade, evade, evade”. They just sit on the point and spam the evade skill, its silly really.

Also yes I always attack from range- just means I lose the point quicker thief just evades everything I throw at them.

The only way i can see taking one down is to time a stun followed by a one-shot type attack just as the skill ends. However, since there is no CD and given good initiative regen, it seems almost impossible to pull this off (even if you had said stun and one-shot skill).”

Details on this link:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Thieves-evading-indefinitely-under-water/first#post867071

By the way just some feedback: locking all discussion on thief and making us post here-where we cannot properly track or discuss separate issues makes me pretty mad.

Har har har.

Evading indefinitely? Just like other classes we only have 2 evades with the uncommon Vigor boon on us.

Our evade attacks consume quite a lot of Initiative and aren’t infinite.

So yeah.

Go underwater. Go spear. Hit shadow assault while specced with some initiative regen. You’ll see what he means.

Again since most people have a hard time grasping the problem. The thief in this scenario isn’t trying to kill anyone only sit in one spot and stop a cap. Ignore the thief he’ll auto attack you. Focus the thief and he’ll shadow assault.

As a Thief only player in PvP I have Issues with my own class.

1)Condition vs Damage-The way conditions work now, condition thieves are outclassed by 2 spam thieves. It is quite annoying that there is build where all you have to do is stealth and press 2 repeatedly. The stealth on shadow refuge is too long. The fact I can stealth for over 10 seconds even has me baffled.

2)Venoms are god awful. Venoms need an overall damage buff. And a re-work and I will tell you exactly how they should be re-worked.
-Change charges to an overall duration they are applied. DONE! Biggest gripe fixed
-Make multiple charges of applications stack duration
-Basilisk Venom take away application time

Other than that I like thief, but the condition side needs a buff and an overall fix so that you aren’t punished for deciding to not go the route of 2 spam or backstab.

Also Scorpion Wire is great but should have a shortened CD if it misses as it is so easily dodged by things a simple as changing direction slightly.

Traps also could use a look at as well.

Ralathar.7236:

STRanger.5120:

Ralathar.7236:

To tell you what I mean by extreme damage. My level 35 Engineer is toughness/vitality spec’d all the way. I run around with close to 3k armor. I have 29k health. A thief took me down not 20 minutes ago in under a second.

Sorry to argue, but this is not possible anymore, not by single-roaming Thief.
Maybe if he has a 25 stacks of might, fully stacked power sigil and crit food, you were vulnerability-stacked and he had a ton of luck critting avery ability used, then he could burst you down. But I kinda doubt that this ever happened so far….

I don’t have to convince you. It happened, as simple as that. Either it’s still possible or there is an exploit out there atm making it possible. No vulnerability involved and he had a few stacks of might but nowhere near 25 stacks.

Sorry man but you do have to convince him and everyone else that reads your post. When you make a statement in an argument or debate, the onus is on the person making the statement to provide proof or at the very least a convincing argument. Making a statement like that and not backing it up simply makes you look like a whiner or a liar, rather then someone who is trying to make an actual point. If someone told you that they were one shotted for 20 thousand damage by an engineer and didn’t provide you with proof, would you take them seriously?

Elloni.2473:

Issues with the thief class

- perma evade underwater
- the restealth debuff neededs to be longer (+2 more seconds)
- Heartseeker covers too much ground
- Heartseeker should do less damage after multiple uses
- The damage on steal is too high
- Auto attack damage is too high on dagger and shortbow (why does a thief do more damage than a ranger with a shortbow if they are both specced for damage?)
- Quickness should be removed from the thief class

• Stomp unstealth the thief*

The thief is all reward with little risk. The stealth mechanic makes good players nearly impossible to hit so the thief, unlike other classes, can spec pure damage and safe.

It should be no surprise that the two classes most complained about in PvP are the two classes that can shake targeting. When considering the damage on a class the ability of their opponent to do damage back should be considered. Given that stealth is so easy to achieve in this game the damage available to the thief reflect that fact (i.e. high defense = lower damage).

If those nerfs happen, thieves HP should be buffed from 10k to 18k base like warriors/necromancers, they do not have nearly the bunker builds other classes do, and every class I see in WvWvW is now Bunker Ele/Guardian, Thieves need more utility and boons like other classes to survive, already I can see many people learning the shannanigans and just using there brain and getting around stealth and our mobility.

Venomous Strength:
Applies 10 seconds of Might, Fury, Swiftness when you use a venom.

This allows Venoms to be utility and group utility and actually makes our “boon duration” mean something.

Elloni.2473:

Issues with the thief class

- perma evade underwater this I can actually agree with, I hate even using that skill, it’s only good in pvp for stalling people. No one in their right mind is going to die to this skill tho, if they do…that’s another issue entirely
- the restealth debuff neededs to be longer (+2 more seconds) I’d like a bit of compensation for this one if it were implemented, but don’t get your hopes up
- Heartseeker covers too much ground is only really an issue with glass cannon thieves, the gap closing effect on this skill doesn’t benefit my condi thief nearly as much
- Heartseeker should do less damage after multiple uses would rather see this skill require some build-up to do its damage, instead of being so rewarding to spam it on a person in low hp
- The damage on steal is too high problem isn’t steal, it’s the powerful 10 point trait
- Auto attack damage is too high on dagger and shortbow (why does a thief do more damage than a ranger with a shortbow if they are both specced for damage?) because the thief shortbow auto attack doesn’t fire at twice the rate and also apply an impressive bleed, I’d switch you auto atks in a heartbeat
- Quickness should be removed from the thief class No, quickness should be removed from all classes or reworked, again more bias against thieves?

• Stomp unstealth the thief* Thief isn’t the only one who can stealth stomp, so why just thief? Very biased, also stealth=/= invincible, the thief has to stay there the entire animation. This is a group game, not a solo game, your team members can pound the living kitten out of the air around you and probably kill the thief

I have an 80 thief and 80 warrior, pretty much equivalently geared (exotic weapons and mix of exotic and rare armour) and play predominantly PvE. The thief is hands-down my favourite character to play, it has so much style and flair, and the gameplay has you on the edge of your seat, however surely there are balance issues when my warrior (shout spec’ed with mostly vitality/toughness or healing gear) can sit back and auto attack while I alt-tab or afk, and still out-damage my thief which has me using 3/4 of my abilities constantly and micro-managing cooldowns etc?

Though my thief is condition-based and I don’t backstab spam, perhaps that is my problem?

I think thieves have been sufficiently nerfed in PvP but would love to see some survivability added to PvE. Condition builds could be re-assessed for group combat where the stack limit of 25 really cripples their effectiveness. Nerfing dancing dagger also made shortbow spam pretty much essential for tagging mobs in dynamic events too, forcing us into a weapon set and single ability. As for venoms and traps, well let’s just say I haven’t had any on my skill bar for quite some time, other than basilisk venom underwater, and there’s a reason for that…

I’m basically reiterating what omgdracula.6345 said above.

All of that aside, I <3 my thief

Elloni.2473:

The thief is all reward with little risk.

Says everyone what doesn’t play a Thief.

The thief is one ah those classes that you get out of, exactly what ya put into it. If ya go high risk, ya get high reward; if ya go low risk, ya get low reward – that’s what ya call internal balance.

belarki.7385:

Nerfing dancing dagger also made shortbow spam pretty much essential for tagging mobs in dynamic events too, forcing us into a weapon set and single ability.

Yeah, the PvE nerf on Dancing Dagger crippled one of our only two CC abilities; hurting allot more builds than the one they were shootin’ for.

Jack of Tears.9458:

Elloni.2473:

The thief is all reward with little risk.

Says everyone what doesn’t play a Thief.

The thief is one ah those classes that you get out of, exactly what ya put into it. If ya go high risk, ya get high reward; if ya go low risk, ya get low reward – that’s what ya call internal balance.

i play thief and that is not right, you can go high risk and then even if it dont work, you can get away without problems, like no other class in the game (maybe Mesmer).

Why is this thread intended to talk about both Thieves in PvE and PvP? It gets a bit confusing debating opinions when two different audiences are discussing aspects of the same class.

As far as PvP is concerned, I felt that backstab damage needed to be nerfed, not CnD (generally feel burst needs to be toned down across all classes as the insta-gibbing that occurs in PvP is not fun or competitive). I also feel how stealth works at the moment makes certain Thief builds incredibly obnoxious to deal with (moreover in WvW, which is moreover the culprit of culling).

I feel the stealth debuff should last longer while base stats for the Thief need to be re-adjusted to compensate for not being able to literally be invisible for the majority of engagements.

Certain weapon sets also don’t mesh well. For example, the Pistol/Dagger set shines on being in melee to pull of CnD into Sneak Attack, yet its 3 skill is Shadow Strike, which Shadow Steps the Thief away from the opponent. Why not switch Shadow Strike and Shadow Shot from Dagger/Pistol so that both sets flow better? Dagger/Pistol already has a gap closer in the way of Heartseeker, so I would imagine Shadow Strike would mesh better as means of Dagger/Pistol creating distance without having to relying on Shortbow’s Infiltrator Arrow.

Body Shot is also useless on both P/P and P/D sets; as both rely on Conditions (P/P to a lesser degree), why not make the 2 skills apply Burning? Or poison, anything that is actually more useful for the weapon sets so that P/D does not rely on spamming Autos for bleeds and P/P 3 for Unloads.

Those are my suggestions. Lower BS damage (though I would hope the PvP team considers generally lowering burst potential across all classes for a more enjoyable pvp environment). Adjust stealth debuff timers while compensating in the way of base stats or something of that nature. Fix the synergy of certain weaponsets (P/P and P/D dagger in particular). That’s about it.

Aratoa.7398:

Ralathar.7236:

STRanger.5120:

Ralathar.7236:

To tell you what I mean by extreme damage. My level 35 Engineer is toughness/vitality spec’d all the way. I run around with close to 3k armor. I have 29k health. A thief took me down not 20 minutes ago in under a second.

Sorry to argue, but this is not possible anymore, not by single-roaming Thief.
Maybe if he has a 25 stacks of might, fully stacked power sigil and crit food, you were vulnerability-stacked and he had a ton of luck critting avery ability used, then he could burst you down. But I kinda doubt that this ever happened so far….

I don’t have to convince you. It happened, as simple as that. Either it’s still possible or there is an exploit out there atm making it possible. No vulnerability involved and he had a few stacks of might but nowhere near 25 stacks.

Sorry man but you do have to convince him and everyone else that reads your post. When you make a statement in an argument or debate, the onus is on the person making the statement to provide proof or at the very least a convincing argument. Making a statement like that and not backing it up simply makes you look like a whiner or a liar, rather then someone who is trying to make an actual point. If someone told you that they were one shotted for 20 thousand damage by an engineer and didn’t provide you with proof, would you take them seriously?

No I don’t because quite simply it can be tested. I don’t know the exact build the thief had but I promise if it’s possible and the thief wasn’t exploiting it can be reproduced.

This is the benefit of fact vs non-fact. It’s not a matter of opinion.

Maybe the thief had power and crit maxed out and he crit every hit, I dunno. All I know is he had negligible stacks of might and was running crit food and used quickness for the normal backstab combo. Since he didn’t render until he was already doing heartseeker spam I judge the under a second by when my health began to drop and the fact that he was the only one dealing damage to me in my combat log.

I dunno how he did it but it happened and it needs not to be possible. You should get vaped like that if you are glass cannon, that’s fair. But when you are built full defense being vaped like that shouldn’t even be a possibility. Even if your lower level. After all 3k armor and 29k hp isn’t exactly squishy.

Ralathar.7236:

No I don’t because quite simply it can be tested. I don’t know the exact build the thief had but I promise if it’s possible and the thief wasn’t exploiting it can be reproduced.

This is the benefit of fact vs non-fact. It’s not a matter of opinion.

Maybe the thief had power and crit maxed out and he crit every hit, I dunno. All I know is he had negligible stacks of might and was running crit food and used quickness for the normal backstab combo. Since he didn’t render until he was already doing heartseeker spam I judge the under a second by when my health began to drop and the fact that he was the only one dealing damage to me in my combat log.

I dunno how he did it but it happened and it needs not to be possible. You should get vaped like that if you are glass cannon, that’s fair. But when you are built full defense being vaped like that shouldn’t even be a possibility. Even if your lower level. After all 3k armor and 29k hp isn’t exactly squishy.

So, you were not killed in a second, even with Quickness, the C&D + Steal + backstab combo takes longer than second itself (Quickness is useless for this combo actually), and HS spam (here the Quickness is beneficial) is another second or two actually. So your problem is not the Thief Burst ability, but the totally broken Quickness and culling issues. Any decent Thief would like to remove Quickness from the game, because it is causing stupid nerfs like PW -15% dmg etc, which are not needed. The main problem was the fact that PW with Quickness = practically stunlock.

So if the Anet fix the culling issue (not a problem of Thief class) and remove/rework Quickness buff, you don´t have any problem.
I think that I can speak for many ppl now, when I say: “Remove quickness and revert nerfs done due to it, this non-sense has no place in this game, it just breakes the gaming experience for many players.”

Ralathar.7236:

Aratoa.7398:

Ralathar.7236:

STRanger.5120:

Ralathar.7236:

To tell you what I mean by extreme damage. My level 35 Engineer is toughness/vitality spec’d all the way. I run around with close to 3k armor. I have 29k health. A thief took me down not 20 minutes ago in under a second.

Sorry to argue, but this is not possible anymore, not by single-roaming Thief.
Maybe if he has a 25 stacks of might, fully stacked power sigil and crit food, you were vulnerability-stacked and he had a ton of luck critting avery ability used, then he could burst you down. But I kinda doubt that this ever happened so far….

I don’t have to convince you. It happened, as simple as that. Either it’s still possible or there is an exploit out there atm making it possible. No vulnerability involved and he had a few stacks of might but nowhere near 25 stacks.

Sorry man but you do have to convince him and everyone else that reads your post. When you make a statement in an argument or debate, the onus is on the person making the statement to provide proof or at the very least a convincing argument. Making a statement like that and not backing it up simply makes you look like a whiner or a liar, rather then someone who is trying to make an actual point. If someone told you that they were one shotted for 20 thousand damage by an engineer and didn’t provide you with proof, would you take them seriously?

No I don’t because quite simply it can be tested. I don’t know the exact build the thief had but I promise if it’s possible and the thief wasn’t exploiting it can be reproduced.

This is the benefit of fact vs non-fact. It’s not a matter of opinion.

Maybe the thief had power and crit maxed out and he crit every hit, I dunno. All I know is he had negligible stacks of might and was running crit food and used quickness for the normal backstab combo. Since he didn’t render until he was already doing heartseeker spam I judge the under a second by when my health began to drop and the fact that he was the only one dealing damage to me in my combat log.

I dunno how he did it but it happened and it needs not to be possible. You should get vaped like that if you are glass cannon, that’s fair. But when you are built full defense being vaped like that shouldn’t even be a possibility. Even if your lower level. After all 3k armor and 29k hp isn’t exactly squishy.

So go test it? the onus is still on you to provide proof, not us. You don’t get to brush off people who question your story because you’ve deemed it to be testable. No one else is making a claim of receiving almost 30 thousand (!) damage in under a second with over 3 thousand armour negating it, the story simply doesn’t add up. Seriously, count of one second, say it out loud or watch a clock for literally one second. You’ll see why it’s so outlandish.

This thread is becoming ridiculous, with people who don’t even play a thief coming to complain about how they don’t want to lose against a Thief anymore.

Aratoa.7398:

So go test it? the onus is still on you to provide proof, not us. You don’t get to brush off people who question your story because you’ve deemed it to be testable. No one else is making a claim of receiving almost 30 thousand (!) damage in under a second with over 3 thousand armour negating it, the story simply doesn’t add up. Seriously, count of one second, say it out loud or watch a clock for literally one second. You’ll see why it’s so outlandish.

Honestly the onus in on ANET unfortunately. Unfortunately I don’t run a glass cannon thief because insta-gibs are not fighting to me and I prefer fighting.

Yes it’s outlandish. Why do you think I’m so surprised and insinuated it could have possibly even been someone exploiting?

STRanger.5120:

Ralathar.7236:

No I don’t because quite simply it can be tested. I don’t know the exact build the thief had but I promise if it’s possible and the thief wasn’t exploiting it can be reproduced.

This is the benefit of fact vs non-fact. It’s not a matter of opinion.

Maybe the thief had power and crit maxed out and he crit every hit, I dunno. All I know is he had negligible stacks of might and was running crit food and used quickness for the normal backstab combo. Since he didn’t render until he was already doing heartseeker spam I judge the under a second by when my health began to drop and the fact that he was the only one dealing damage to me in my combat log.

I dunno how he did it but it happened and it needs not to be possible. You should get vaped like that if you are glass cannon, that’s fair. But when you are built full defense being vaped like that shouldn’t even be a possibility. Even if your lower level. After all 3k armor and 29k hp isn’t exactly squishy.

So, you were not killed in a second, even with Quickness, the C&D + Steal + backstab combo takes longer than second itself (Quickness is useless for this combo actually), and HS spam (here the Quickness is beneficial) is another second or two actually. So your problem is not the Thief Burst ability, but the totally broken Quickness and culling issues. Any decent Thief would like to remove Quickness from the game, because it is causing stupid nerfs like PW -15% dmg etc, which are not needed. The main problem was the fact that PW with Quickness = practically stunlock.

So if the Anet fix the culling issue (not a problem of Thief class) and remove/rework Quickness buff, you don´t have any problem.
I think that I can speak for many ppl now, when I say: “Remove quickness and revert nerfs done due to it, this non-sense has no place in this game, it just breakes the gaming experience for many players.”

Actually The only animation time you need for that combo is for backstab and the followup heartseekers. Mug and CND are effectively instant to the person being attacked the way they are currently used. We are talking a full count second here, not people’s usual perception of a second which is shorter.

If it was something like 1.25 seconds or something then forgive me as I am not a metronome :P. But lets play devil’s advocate and assume he killed me in 3 seconds to play on the ultra-conservative side. With me having near 3k armor and 29k hp is that balanced or fair?

Are you perhaps attempting to quibble too much over the details and semantics to distract from the problem? Because we could argue about fractions of a second all day long but isn’t that really moot?

Yes, its true. This thread has become another QQ topic where ppl who was defeated by thief cry for another nerfes of thief so this kids cannot be defeated by thief anymore. Its not possible to still nerf one class. No one another class is still nerfing like thief is. You are ruining one good class and making it useless on PvE and PvP.

Ppl who has never played thief class has absolutely no right to say that thief is OP and call for nerfes. ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT. These ppl dont know all aspects of thief class, dont know how hard thief is to play good and how weak is thief if your opponent play his/her class good.

Ppl still cry here that thief deal high damage but true is that thief deal good damage only on start of fight – after he use some skills he is out of initiative and can do nothing more and thief is paper class so he die easily. Thief = high damage on begin or die and ppl still cry for nerfes of damage. Thief without damage is only useless paper character and only moving practise target for enemies.

So discouraging. This is a classic stale-mate situation : thieves percieve this thread as a place to ask for buffs, while their victims see this as a place to see if there are other people getting killed in 2 seconds from stealth. All in one thread. Now THAT will leave the second group unsatisfied won’t it? It will even get on the nerves of the first group.

“First fix culling, THEN see if thieves still need fixing” only works if it CAN be fixed within a reasonable time-frame, which everyone doubts more and more every day. The alternative is people insta-killing squishies for months to come.

I am not sure putting a muzzle on people with a dump thread is the way to go forward.

“Feedback about the thief and its gameplay” isn’t that what the forum is for??? Now it has changed into : got something positive to say? Use the forum! Everything not positive? Use the dump thread so we can safely ignore it.

Ralathar.7236:

STRanger.5120:

So, you were not killed in a second, even with Quickness, the C&D + Steal + backstab combo takes longer than second itself (Quickness is useless for this combo actually), and HS spam (here the Quickness is beneficial) is another second or two actually. So your problem is not the Thief Burst ability, but the totally broken Quickness and culling issues. Any decent Thief would like to remove Quickness from the game, because it is causing stupid nerfs like PW -15% dmg etc, which are not needed. The main problem was the fact that PW with Quickness = practically stunlock.

So if the Anet fix the culling issue (not a problem of Thief class) and remove/rework Quickness buff, you don´t have any problem.
I think that I can speak for many ppl now, when I say: “Remove quickness and revert nerfs done due to it, this non-sense has no place in this game, it just breakes the gaming experience for many players.”

Actually The only animation time you need for that combo is for backstab and the followup heartseekers. Mug and CND are effectively instant to the person being attacked the way they are currently used. We are talking a full count second here, not people’s usual perception of a second which is shorter.

If it was something like 1.25 seconds or something then forgive me as I am not a metronome :P. But lets play devil’s advocate and assume he killed me in 3 seconds to play on the ultra-conservative side. With me having near 3k armor and 29k hp is that balanced or fair?

Are you perhaps attempting to quibble too much over the details and semantics to distract from the problem? Because we could argue about fractions of a second all day long but isn’t that really moot?

Ok, leave the part about the second and think about that other part (Quickness + culling as the problem) if you automatically skipped that, which looks like very probable from your reply. Because that is what causes the so called “OP burst”. And I´m still waiting for any proof of that damage done, because it is not possible without hack, that amount of dmg in so short period of time as you describe it, without hacking etc…

Also, Steal + C&D may be “instant” but positioning and BS isn´t at all, it just takes some time, and if you dodge, you probably just ruined the BS attempt and can destroy the Thief quite easily (even def specced char can wreck those GC thieves in a matter of seconds).

I had a talk with guildmate guardian with whom we had some duels in hot joint with me having the upper hand most of the times. Tbh honest that guys didn’t know how to play well yet.( His main is a Ranger ). He QQ’ed that Thieves are OP and it isn’t fair to get hit as a Gaurdian by 5K-7K especially if toughness specced. After some talk with fellow Gaurdians discussing counters still he was bothered by the damage numbers.

My question is:
Do people really want to play in way where a burst class attacks them and they want just to attack, using no counters nor defensive abilities, and finally win?

And as for the gameplay discussion, I really don’t care if Thief gets nerfed or whatever as long as my opponents still have to squize their mind to pull out some counters and defenses.

As an attack class I counter heavy armor+defense utilities with high burst. Is it sensible for a defense class to counter me just by attacking me?? Hope you get my point.

Also I would like to state again the need for “life after burst combo” solutions. Let’s say we cut in half BS Combo but the rest half I would like to see it in another mini combo maybe or skills, in case first one fails and I can’t still use HS due to above 25% health. In a few words give us 2 smaller bursts than just one big.

kineticdamage.6279:

This thread is becoming ridiculous, with people who don’t even play a thief coming to complain about how they don’t want to lose against a Thief anymore.

We had a legit and serious discussion in the spvp forum about one particular aspect of thief gameplay underwater making it almost impossible to take the node from them. That thread was closed and the mod said to post in here.

STRanger.5120:

Ok, leave the part about the second and think about that other part (Quickness + culling as the problem) if you automatically skipped that, which looks like very probable from your reply. Because that is what causes the so called “OP burst”. And I´m still waiting for any proof of that damage done, because it is not possible without hack, that amount of dmg in so short period of time as you describe it, without hacking etc…

Also, Steal + C&D may be “instant” but positioning and BS isn´t at all, it just takes some time, and if you dodge, you probably just ruined the BS attempt and can destroy the Thief quite easily (even def specced char can wreck those GC thieves in a matter of seconds).

There was no culling issue this time. I was running, quite ahead mind you, of his group. The thief being the natural chaser chased me down from a side angle (from where he had just ganked someone else) and I had no warning of his approach as this was out of LOS when he stealthed. I had no option to stop and fight and no option not to present my back side.

He appeared starting his first heartseker after the backstab, so that’s near instantly. I assume he fired quickness right as he backstabbed. Without seeing him stealth and get ready to fire the combo dodging a quickened backstab is somewhat problematic unless your literally waiting for it.

This is where the other half of the problem with the burst comes in. Yes it is potentially avoidable, however as a thief I’ve also experienced the other side. I get to choose the time to strike. If I do that properly you will not avoid it. A counter that can be ignored with proper play is not a counter at all. WvW gives you boundless opportunities to land this combo since WvW is not 1 vs 1.

Posibabis.5932:

He QQ’ed that Thieves are OP and it isn’t fair to get hit as a Gaurdian by 5K-7K especially if toughness specced.

He QQ’ed that Thieves are OP and it isn’t fair to get hit as a Gaurdian by 5K-7K especially if toughness specced.

To be fair he may have a point. If you can hit 5-7k on a toughness spec’d heavy armor class then how hard will you hit on a well balanced build that doesn’t have heavy armor?

Ralathar.7236:

There was no culling issue this time. I was running, quite ahead mind you, of his group. The thief being the natural chaser chased me down from a side angle (from where he had just ganked someone else) and I had no warning of his approach as this was out of LOS when he stealthed. I had no option to stop and fight and no option not to present my back side.

He appeared starting his first heartseker after the backstab, so that’s near instantly. I assume he fired quickness right as he backstabbed. Without seeing him stealth and get ready to fire the combo dodging a quickened backstab is somewhat problematic unless your literally waiting for it.

This is where the other half of the problem with the burst comes in. Yes it is potentially avoidable, however as a thief I’ve also experienced the other side. I get to choose the time to strike. If I do that properly you will not avoid it. A counter that can be ignored with proper play is not a counter at all. WvW gives you boundless opportunities to land this combo since WvW is not 1 vs 1.

So you´d missed the animation of steal (which is obvious), the sound of steal + C&D (which is obvious too) “there is the point when you should dodge” and let him backstab you.
Nevertheless, you had the whole group chasing you and complain about Thief which nailed you? That really makes sense, because no other class has mobility in this game, right? /irony

If you get yourself in such situation (1 vs Many), you are dead anyway, so there is really nothing to complain about….
Also WvW is not the deciding factor for class balance, for obvious reasons…

Ralathar.7236:

To be fair he may have a point. If you can hit 5-7k on a toughness spec’d heavy armor class then how hard will you hit on a well balanced build that doesn’t have heavy armor?

To be fair, is Thief the only class who can hit these numbers?
No, there are other classes which can hit even harder on a single ability and even are much harder to avoid under specific circumstances, and even can hit multiple ppl with it, ohhhh isn´t that kinda OP?

STRanger.5120:

Ralathar.7236:

To be fair he may have a point. If you can hit 5-7k on a toughness spec’d heavy armor class then how hard will you hit on a well balanced build that doesn’t have heavy armor?

To be fair, is Thief the only class who can hit these numbers?
No, there are other classes which can hit even harder on a single ability and even are much harder to avoid under specific circumstances, and even can hit multiple ppl with it, ohhhh isn´t that kinda OP?

Can’t you hear it coming…“Other classes don’t have Mug” :P

Posibabis.5932:

Can’t you hear it coming…“Other classes don’t have Mug” :P

Yes, I´m surely expecting that
However, this conversation still don´t have any impact on what Anet does with the next patch, so I still can´t figure out why the ppl are complaining again and again, when they can´t get what they want (I suppose they would be happy after Thief removal from the game, then actually realise that there are much stronger classes to stand against)

Doubt these changes will ever happen but want to throw them out there anyways.

Personally I do feel like the thief is still a little too powerful on burst and yes I do have an 80 thief. I do agree that we shouldn’t be able to basically one-shot or kill anyone in just a second flat because we specced right.

Having said that I think they could tone down our damage and make the class more interesting by just removing steal (only good for the shadowstep+mug anyways) and replace it with a permastealth ability.

Before you rage on me I don’t mean permastealth at all times there would be some conditions, it would work the same as our normal stealth abilities but would not break until we attacked someone. Once we land an attack this stealth ability would not be useable for lets say 90-120 seconds maybe longer even. We could still use our other stealth abilities but obviously those don’t last as long.

I think doing this along with toning down our damage somewhat would make for better gameplay our burst wouldn’t be as bad, no where near just one shotting someone but we can setup ambushes and have time to plan an attack because we don’t have to worry about our initial stealth revealing us before we strike. It could also be used for a perma-stealth escape defensively, if we survived a +2 min brawl or chose to use it for escape purposely.

Other than that I do think like others have said the initiative cost on dancing dagger should be lowered to match the reduced damage and perhaps lower the damage of it a bit more but add a stacking bleed.

Above all I think seeing a drastic change to heartstrike is needed. Perhaps add more cost to use it or make it so it only does high damage when your target is low on health or meets certain conditions which have to come from other sources the thief has to use first.

skotie.2614:

Personally I do feel like the thief is still a little too powerful on burst and yes I do have an 80 thief. I do agree that we shouldn’t be able to basically one-shot or kill anyone in just a second flat because we specced right.

So you would approve to remove builds from the game? Because that would solve the problem, but will make GW2 the same as some other game (you know which one especially I mean).
There´s builds that counter another builds. Until the classes skills/traits/mechanics get fixed, some builds will be played more than another, that´s just the way it is, there´s no posibility to change that, except the fixing.

@STRanger

Not saying we should remove builds but allowing for a build that makes us basically just one-shot someone is not much fun. The person you used it on never had a chance and you know it there was no fight just an execution.

What I’m suggesting is still allow build’s and burst builds but scale the damage down so those one shot or nearly one shot kills don’t happen. You would still be able to play with a huge burst opener but then you would just have to have a plan to finish them off. While they actually can fight back.

Being able to stunlock someone to death or one shot someone isn’t really all that fun after awhile, it’s not like your opponent could have played differently to prevent the outcome it was game over for him the minute you started it and that’s the problem with these types of kills.

skotie.2614:

@STRanger

Not saying we should remove builds but allowing for a build that makes us basically just one-shot someone is not much fun. The person you used it on never had a chance and you know it there was no fight just an execution.

What I’m suggesting is still allow build’s and burst builds but scale the damage down so those one shot or nearly one shot kills don’t happen. You would still be able to play with a huge burst opener but then you would just have to have a plan to finish them off. While they actually can fight back.

Being able to stunlock someone to death or one shot someone isn’t really all that fun after awhile, it’s not like your opponent could have played differently to prevent the outcome it was game over for him the minute you started it and that’s the problem with these types of kills.

All of these builds are counterable, if someone goes with full zerker equipment and no stunbreak/defensive abilities, it´s just their fault and they deserve to die. These types of ppl will die to not only Thieves, but also to warriors, mesmers, necromancers, engineers, elementalists etc… all these classes can burst down an unprepared character in a matter of seconds, without letting the opponent to fight back. So what was exactly your issue?

@STRanger I see so if you walk outside your door tomorrow and someone blows your head off with a sniper rifle no warning or reason I should just come up and say “Omg noob don’t you know you should have worn your bulletproof helmet?!” seems like where your logic is going with this.

Why are the battlegrounds flooded with Thief’s and Warriors if they aren’t OP please stop acting like you can one shot someone simply because your a good player and all classes are equal this game has major balancing issues, I’m making a suggest if you got one so should you.

skotie.2614:

@STRanger I see so if you walk outside your door tomorrow and someone blows your head off with a sniper rifle no warning or reason I should just come up and say “Omg noob don’t you know you should have worn your bulletproof helmet?!” seems like where your logic is going with this.

Why are the battlegrounds flooded with Thief’s and Warriors if they aren’t OP please stop acting like you can one shot someone simply because your a good player and all classes are equal this game has major balancing issues, I’m making a suggest if you got one so should you.

You know that a buletproof helmet doesn´t exists and even if it does, it won´t help you against a sniper. That was really poor argument dude…

Now with the response.

I´m not playing the GC burst build so please don´t presume everyone is one of those players you consider OP noobs.

Also there are no battlegrounds in this game, maybe you had mistaken it?
But everybody presumes that they can´t die fast, even with their glassy builds. Opposite is true, just deal with it. If you don´t have HP and/or armor, you die fast, that´s just the way it is. If someone takes the risk of dying fast (by speccing GC), they are rewarded by putting the players with the similar/same spec down fast.
If I were you, I would be concerned much more about Bunker builds, which are difficult to take down even 5 vs 1 if the bunker player is skilled, because that is much more OP than a single downed player in 45 seconds….

Archaon.6245:

Overmind.3705:

To Thief players…
Name one other profession that can kill a player in under 2 seconds.

Frenzy HB and Mind Wrack. Questions?

Really? Looks like bad players still complain about Frenzy + HB on the class that has no stealth and every tell in the world. Here’s an option, bring a stun breaker. Oh wait, that’s the line that thief-onlies use all the time to demonstrate how easy the game is. Does that work for you?

Mind Wrack insta-kills you? Lets use another popular thief-only player adage: Bring more toughness, less zerker gear. Especially as a thief.

nldixon.8514:

I realize there are a lot of Thief apologists in this thread, seeing as how it was posted in the Thief forums and non-Thief players are unlikely to see it. I also realize that no one wants to see their profession nerfed.

The problem with initiative goes hand in hand with cooldowns. Maybe Death Blossom was a bad example, but the point remains that without cooldowns on their abilities, Thieves completely bypass the very check that keeps high damage abilities balanced.

Backstab, which is probably the single most damaging ability in the game, can be used every three seconds. There is no cooldown and a Thief never has to worry about not having enough initiative. A Thief basically only has to avoid getting nailed for three seconds, which is incredibly easy to do, until they get back into stealth and repeat the process.

Ehm its 4 seconds at best(if you hit right after CnD, and that involves not attacking with innitiative in between so you can cast CnD.
Avoid getting nailed for 3 seconds withouth using innitiative, idd say its pretty hard + you have to be in melee range and can only autoattack.

Daecollo.9578:

Venomous Strength:
Applies 10 seconds of Might, Fury, Swiftness when you use a venom.

This allows Venoms to be utility and group utility and actually makes our “boon duration” mean something.

I’m with you 100 % on thieves getting more boons, I don’t know why we’re the only profession that has absolutely zero boons on their weapon skills. It might have something to do with initiative providing spammability, but honestly the system balances itself out pretty well as-is, and throwing Might onto a high-init skill is not going to let thieves insta-stack 25.

What I don’t agree on is making the solution to venom’s weakness even more reliant on venom-share builds than it already is. The problem with venoms is that with the exception of specializing heavily into them, they’re terrible. Making that specialized set of venom builds more powerful is not the solution venoms need to become a viable utility for all thieves.

Marduh.4603:

Steal
Cooldown 45 second – too big cooldown compared to other professions.
35 second – ideal number, 27 second with full Trickery line

Mug – Too much damage to Adept trait. Need to reduce the damage by 30-50%.

Professoin:
Warriors – Whirling Axe – awesome
Necromancer – Skull Fear – awesome
Thief – Blinding Tuft – awesome
Guardian – Mace Head Crack – awesome
Mesmer – Consume Ectoplasm – awesome
Ranger – Healing Seed – awesome
Elementalist – Ice Shard Stab – awesome
Engineer – Throw Gunk – totally useless and break stealth
Thieves simply can not use a professional skill against the engineers. You need to replace this useless Junk on Big Ol ’Bomb.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Big_Ol%27_Bomb

My inner thief does not agree stealing from warrior is awsome :<

Ralathar.7236:

Aratoa.7398:

So go test it? the onus is still on you to provide proof, not us. You don’t get to brush off people who question your story because you’ve deemed it to be testable. No one else is making a claim of receiving almost 30 thousand (!) damage in under a second with over 3 thousand armour negating it, the story simply doesn’t add up. Seriously, count of one second, say it out loud or watch a clock for literally one second. You’ll see why it’s so outlandish.

Honestly the onus in on ANET unfortunately. Unfortunately I don’t run a glass cannon thief because insta-gibs are not fighting to me and I prefer fighting.

Yes it’s outlandish. Why do you think I’m so surprised and insinuated it could have possibly even been someone exploiting?

Honestly, ANET didn’t make the outlandish claim, you did so that means you’re the one who has to prove it but I’m gonna give up on this. You have no proof of anything and we’ll leave it at that. If you think there is an exploit at play though, you should report it or post about it in the bugs section, rather then in a thread that is supposed to be about feedback about Thieves and not about exploits.

Tulisin.6945:

What I don’t agree on is making the solution to venom’s weakness even more reliant on venom-share builds than it already is. The problem with venoms is that with the exception of specializing heavily into them, they’re terrible. Making that specialized set of venom builds more powerful is not the solution venoms need to become a viable utility for all thieves.

Instead of nerfing venoms, they should have nerfed venom share. Like, shared venoms only get half the charges and double the number of charges at the same time.

stof.9341:

Tulisin.6945:

What I don’t agree on is making the solution to venom’s weakness even more reliant on venom-share builds than it already is. The problem with venoms is that with the exception of specializing heavily into them, they’re terrible. Making that specialized set of venom builds more powerful is not the solution venoms need to become a viable utility for all thieves.

Instead of nerfing venoms, they should have nerfed venom share. Like, shared venoms only get half the charges and double the number of charges at the same time.

I think the term “nerf” clouds it a little. I get what you mean though, venoms and venom-share was poorly designed. Because of the potential for venom shares to be powerful with that one build, they had to be so weak that people not using that build find them terrible. This is particularly apparent with Basilisk Venom, which has seen several nerfs as a result of it being quite good with Venom Share, but even in its 100 % original state most people considered it the worst thief elite by far.

Daecollo.9578:

Venomous Strength:
Applies 10 seconds of Might, Fury, Swiftness when you use a venom.

This allows Venoms to be utility and group utility and actually makes our “boon duration” mean something.

Venomous strength: When applied, venoms grant 2 stacks of might for 20 seconds.

That tooltip in your post is from the Thrill of the crime, which is connected to Stealing, dude ;-)

Marduh.4603:

Engineer – Throw Gunk – totally useless and break stealth
Thieves simply can not use a professional skill against the engineers. You need to replace this useless Junk on Big Ol ’Bomb.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Big_Ol%27_Bomb

Noooo don’t change throw gunk it’s amazing in WvW. Probably not as good in sPvP due to the confusion nerf. It’s an Ethereal field so you can throw it un-targeted in stealth so it doesn’t hit the engie and if you use a pistol stand in it an unload 7+ stacks of confuse on them. They kill themselves spamming grenades at you. Even if you hit them by accident you can get 4+ stacks on them with just auto attacks.

Stiv.1820:

Noooo don’t change throw gunk it’s amazing in WvW. Probably not as good in sPvP due to the confusion nerf. It’s an Ethereal field so you can throw it un-targeted in stealth so it doesn’t hit the engie and if you use a pistol stand in it an unload 7+ stacks of confuse on them. They kill themselves spamming grenades at you. Even if you hit them by accident you can get 4+ stacks on them with just auto attacks.

At that time and again that if you do not have a gun in your main hand, then steal useless, does not help, even with the immobilization of the sword. A bomb will be useful to all builds.

Ralathar.7236:

STRanger.5120:

Ralathar.7236:

To tell you what I mean by extreme damage. My level 35 Engineer is toughness/vitality spec’d all the way. I run around with close to 3k armor. I have 29k health. A thief took me down not 20 minutes ago in under a second.

Sorry to argue, but this is not possible anymore, not by single-roaming Thief.
Maybe if he has a 25 stacks of might, fully stacked power sigil and crit food, you were vulnerability-stacked and he had a ton of luck critting avery ability used, then he could burst you down. But I kinda doubt that this ever happened so far….

I don’t have to convince you. It happened, as simple as that. Either it’s still possible or there is an exploit out there atm making it possible. No vulnerability involved and he had a few stacks of might but nowhere near 25 stacks.

You are lvl 35, omg. You’re wasting your time here, go back to PvE, and stop QQ. You haven’t no reason to complaining about nothing.

Elloni.2473:

Issues with the thief class

- perma evade underwater
- the restealth debuff neededs to be longer (+2 more seconds)
- Heartseeker covers too much ground
- Heartseeker should do less damage after multiple uses
- The damage on steal is too high
- Auto attack damage is too high on dagger and shortbow (why does a thief do more damage than a ranger with a shortbow if they are both specced for damage?)
- Quickness should be removed from the thief class

• Stomp unstealth the thief*

The thief is all reward with little risk. The stealth mechanic makes good players nearly impossible to hit so the thief, unlike other classes, can spec pure damage and safe.

It should be no surprise that the two classes most complained about in PvP are the two classes that can shake targeting. When considering the damage on a class the ability of their opponent to do damage back should be considered. Given that stealth is so easy to achieve in this game the damage available to the thief reflect that fact (i.e. high defense = lower damage).

…and delete Thief (with Ranger). Bad players like you should not be entitled to give opinion. Do you thought for a while before writing this? Do you played with Thief? Not? So shut up.