Guild Wars 2

Noticed some people not liking the class and am trying to find why. Seems to be that people don’t think they work anymore.

I have 5 quick builds off the top of my head, and others I can throw into when I want to test for another, hoping that maybe this will help people.

Heartseeker spam: 25/30/0/0/15…everyone knows this one- steal does dps/heal and dagger dmg with the 100% from stealth and more dps/chance behind target…just add in power signet, haste, skale and basilisk venom. Nuke, restealth and wait for a recharge or ranged…
Auto ftw: 30/30/0/0/10- same deal as above, you just dont use anything but auto until they move and then just HS for a follow.
Just following someone with lots of heals : X/30/30/X/X 100% crit from stealth and heal while in stealth.
Steal build: 20/20/0/0/30- Steal dazes, grants 4 boons + steals some- does dps/heal, allows C&D. It gives 10% more damage because of bundle holding, whatever you want for the crit spot.
Venom Tank: 30/0/30/0/10- Venoms grant might, recharge fast, have an extra apply, apply to allies, steal hp when they hit. Stealth blinds and dodging leaves caltrops. P/d and shortbow- use HiS, Spider and Skale Venom, Shadow Refuge for free poison while stealth (Shortbow 4 does not break stealth, good for getting those last few ticks) and Basilisk venom. SR is for lifesteal or escape, not for reentering fight.

Hope this helped…didn’t want to post on build thread since I don’t know if people go there….

Provided builds I have not used:
10/30/0/0/30 D/P
10/30/0/30/0 S/D

Your thread doesn’t even have the two actual competitive builds available to thief…

10/30/0/0/30 D/P

and

10/30/0/30/0 S/D

infantrydiv.1620:

Your thread doesn’t even have the two actual competitive builds available to thief…

10/30/0/0/30 D/P

and

10/30/0/30/0 S/D

This. Thief is low tier now even with these 2 best builds.

Excalibur.9748:

infantrydiv.1620:

Your thread doesn’t even have the two actual competitive builds available to thief…

10/30/0/0/30 D/P

and

10/30/0/30/0 S/D

This. Thief is low tier now even with these 2 best builds.

What he said

I said “off the top of my head” not “the only”. Those are builds I use and can use well, those are builds I consistently am winning 2v1s…except when a third shows or when the other is a shadow refuge/blinding powder thief…that’s annoying as can be…got to burn them down twice each then. And thanks for fixing that, I will edit my first post to accomodate those correctly. I was not looking for a fight, was trying to figure out why we cant win in peoples opinion. I’m winning =/

Its not letting me , nevermind. But thanks for contributing =D, how do those builds work? I +1d you guys.

I don’t mean anything bad by this at all, but if you think that any of those builds with the exception of the 20/20/0/0/30 one are viable in a competitive environment then you have no idea what you’re talking about. :S

The two builds mentioned by infantrydev are the only two real viable builds that we have, and I would even go as far as to say that the 10/30/0/0/30 D/P build isn’t even that great since you don’t even have that much burst damage and hardly any survivability.

To not be a kitten and answer your questions though, the builds work roughly like this:

10/30/0/30/0 S/D + SB: Far point assaulter and roamer, uses AA, Infiltrator’s Strike and Flanking/Larcenous Strike for great sustain and mobility and to remove boons from boon bunkers. Can survive in the team fight if necessary thanks to high evasion and 30 in Acrobatics. Can also apply heavy damage and poison with SB when necessary.

10/30/0/0/30 D/P + SB: Same deal again, far point assaulter and roamer, uses burst combo to bring down low health targets and turn a fight in your teams favour. Cannot survive in the middle of the team fight but is able to apply heavy damage and poison with SB until a burst opportunity arises.

I can provide links to these builds if you’d like.

Incurafy.6329:

I don’t mean anything bad by this at all, but if you think that any of those builds with the exception of the 20/20/0/0/30 one are viable in a competitive environment then you have no idea what you’re talking about. :S

The two builds mentioned by infantrydev are the only two real viable builds that we have, and I would even go as far as to say that the 10/30/0/0/30 D/P build isn’t even that great since you don’t even have that much burst damage and hardly any survivability.

To not be a kitten and answer your questions though, the builds work roughly like this:

10/30/0/30/0 S/D + SB: Far point assaulter and roamer, uses AA, Infiltrator’s Strike and Flanking/Larcenous Strike for great sustain and mobility and to remove boons from boon bunkers. Can survive in the team fight if necessary thanks to high evasion and 30 in Acrobatics. Can also apply heavy damage and poison when necessary.

10/30/0/0/30 D/P + SB: Same deal again, far point assaulter and roamer, uses burst combo to bring down low health targets and turn a fight in your teams favour. Cannot survive in the middle of the team fight but is able to apply heavy damage and poison with SB until a burst opportunity arises.

I can provide links to these builds if you’d like.

What Incurafy says is correct. Also, D/P functions as a steal /basi daze/stun build with mediocre burst but decent sustain due to blackpowder on pistol offhand.

For me, tPvP thieves have basically been reduced to mobile decap bots who can’t usually even go toe to toe with builds like spirit ranger in a 1v1 scenario

It’s been discussed so many times already but the main two thing that are pidgeon-holing thief builds are the significant damage boosters in critical strikes trait line that make it essential for any direct damage build (300 precision, 30% crit damage, 30% base damage boost from first strikes and executioner), and the fact that any build that’s tried to focus on condition damage instead of direct damage will only have reliable access to single target bleeds, poison and a small amount of torment, and so won’t ever be worth taking in competitive Tpvp over an AoE conditon focused class like condition-mancer or spirit ranger.

Incurafy.6329:

I don’t mean anything bad by this at all, but if you think that any of those builds with the exception of the 20/20/0/0/30 one are viable in a competitive environment then you have no idea what you’re talking about. :S

The two builds mentioned by infantrydev are the only two real viable builds that we have, and I would even go as far as to say that the 10/30/0/0/30 D/P build isn’t even that great since you don’t even have that much burst damage and hardly any survivability.

To not be a kitten and answer your questions though, the builds work roughly like this:

10/30/0/30/0 S/D + SB: Far point assaulter and roamer, uses AA, Infiltrator’s Strike and Flanking/Larcenous Strike for great sustain and mobility and to remove boons from boon bunkers. Can survive in the team fight if necessary thanks to high evasion and 30 in Acrobatics. Can also apply heavy damage and poison with SB when necessary.

10/30/0/0/30 D/P + SB: Same deal again, far point assaulter and roamer, uses burst combo to bring down low health targets and turn a fight in your teams favour. Cannot survive in the middle of the team fight but is able to apply heavy damage and poison with SB until a burst opportunity arises.

I can provide links to these builds if you’d like.

This!

Also the only way to prove that a build works in a competitive environment, is to show it with a video.
The only thief’s builds that work at the moment are those 2 posted by Incurafy.
Why? Because they are the only thief’s builds that we are seeing everytime a thief is playing a Final right now.
In the PAX finals as an exemple there were Lady Nag Nag 10 30 0 30 0 and Caed 10 30 0 0 30

I would say that also 10 0 0 30 30 s\d sb is a good build but since no one is showing it in a real tournament I cannot prove it right.

So please show proves or stop saying that Venom Share, D\P perma stealth with health regen or P\D cond dmg build are competitive builds, even if they “came out of your mind”

Kolly.9872:

Incurafy.6329:

I don’t mean anything bad by this at all, but if you think that any of those builds with the exception of the 20/20/0/0/30 one are viable in a competitive environment then you have no idea what you’re talking about. :S

The two builds mentioned by infantrydev are the only two real viable builds that we have, and I would even go as far as to say that the 10/30/0/0/30 D/P build isn’t even that great since you don’t even have that much burst damage and hardly any survivability.

To not be a kitten and answer your questions though, the builds work roughly like this:

10/30/0/30/0 S/D + SB: Far point assaulter and roamer, uses AA, Infiltrator’s Strike and Flanking/Larcenous Strike for great sustain and mobility and to remove boons from boon bunkers. Can survive in the team fight if necessary thanks to high evasion and 30 in Acrobatics. Can also apply heavy damage and poison with SB when necessary.

10/30/0/0/30 D/P + SB: Same deal again, far point assaulter and roamer, uses burst combo to bring down low health targets and turn a fight in your teams favour. Cannot survive in the middle of the team fight but is able to apply heavy damage and poison with SB until a burst opportunity arises.

I can provide links to these builds if you’d like.

This!

Also the only way to prove that a build works in a competitive environment, is to show it with a video.
The only thief’s builds that work at the moment are those 2 posted by Incurafy.
Why? Because they are the only thief’s builds that we are seeing everytime a thief is playing a Final right now.
In the PAX finals as an exemple there were Lady Nag Nag 10 30 0 30 0 and Caed 10 30 0 0 30

I would say that also 10 0 0 30 30 s\d sb is a good build but since no one is showing it in a real tournament I cannot prove it right.

So please show proves or stop saying that Venom Share, D\P perma stealth with health regen or P\D cond dmg build are competitive builds, even if they “came out of your mind”

10/0/0/30/30 s/d sb isn’t a bad build, but it has too many glaring weaknesses for the current meta, the biggest one being it doesn’t do enough damage to kill even the kittentiest played warrior with 20 points in Defense and HS. Its TTK is too long, allowing even a semi-coordinated team to overwhelm you. The only appreciable benefit is you can keep a point flipped in a 2 on 1 for a -long- time and still escape.

evilapprentice.6379:

Kolly.9872:

Incurafy.6329:

I don’t mean anything bad by this at all, but if you think that any of those builds with the exception of the 20/20/0/0/30 one are viable in a competitive environment then you have no idea what you’re talking about. :S

The two builds mentioned by infantrydev are the only two real viable builds that we have, and I would even go as far as to say that the 10/30/0/0/30 D/P build isn’t even that great since you don’t even have that much burst damage and hardly any survivability.

To not be a kitten and answer your questions though, the builds work roughly like this:

10/30/0/30/0 S/D + SB: Far point assaulter and roamer, uses AA, Infiltrator’s Strike and Flanking/Larcenous Strike for great sustain and mobility and to remove boons from boon bunkers. Can survive in the team fight if necessary thanks to high evasion and 30 in Acrobatics. Can also apply heavy damage and poison with SB when necessary.

10/30/0/0/30 D/P + SB: Same deal again, far point assaulter and roamer, uses burst combo to bring down low health targets and turn a fight in your teams favour. Cannot survive in the middle of the team fight but is able to apply heavy damage and poison with SB until a burst opportunity arises.

I can provide links to these builds if you’d like.

This!

Also the only way to prove that a build works in a competitive environment, is to show it with a video.
The only thief’s builds that work at the moment are those 2 posted by Incurafy.
Why? Because they are the only thief’s builds that we are seeing everytime a thief is playing a Final right now.
In the PAX finals as an exemple there were Lady Nag Nag 10 30 0 30 0 and Caed 10 30 0 0 30

I would say that also 10 0 0 30 30 s\d sb is a good build but since no one is showing it in a real tournament I cannot prove it right.

So please show proves or stop saying that Venom Share, D\P perma stealth with health regen or P\D cond dmg build are competitive builds, even if they “came out of your mind”

10/0/0/30/30 s/d sb isn’t a bad build, but it has too many glaring weaknesses for the current meta, the biggest one being it doesn’t do enough damage to kill even the kittentiest played warrior with 20 points in Defense and HS. Its TTK is too long, allowing even a semi-coordinated team to overwhelm you. The only appreciable benefit is you can keep a point flipped in a 2 on 1 for a -long- time and still escape.

yeah exactly what you said, well explained also.
I used to play this build before the meta changes but it’s not rewarding anymore.

Well, hopefully, someone will try out my new-found build and at least tell me how viable it is [[IN THEIR OPINION]]. I have used it in sPvP and WvW with a high success rate. If it doesn’t work for anyone else, I need to closet the Thief and look elsewhere for a good class.

30/0/30/0/10- Pistol/Dagger and Shortbow
The Power row- Venoms grant might, venoms recharge faster, venoms last one extra time.

The Healing row- Stealth blinds, venoms siphon health when they hit (it adds dps and makes you far more survivable) and venoms apply to nearby allies as well as their benefits.

The Class row(steal)- This is preference, you could toss this into Acrobatics for might dodges or faster stealth movement. I have caltrops for the cripple because this is a ranged build.

HiS, Spider/Skale/Basilisk Venom + Shadow Refuge.
Single target, very easy- Cloak&Dagger+Steal for that ranged stealth + gap closer- dodge for caltrops that don’t break stealth and use Pistol 1 in stealth (no venom yet). Wait for revealed to end (number 3 is great, it gives you a free evade basically-use on HB or similar). Use HiS and Spider/Skale Venom- toss down Shadow Refuge, tap Basilisk venom- stay in the SR field, use Auto 1 for a massive lifesteal. Field+skill+trait. Also applies high condi. Should be downed or will down soon- if not down, your steal should be back shortly, keep evading repeat rotation or swap to shortbow and escape.

Multi-target is Shortbow- Pop Spid/Skal venoms and just auto (this works for 3 targets or less, otherwise just run- I haven’t made this work for 3 yet, but 2 is fabulous) until you run out of venoms. Tap your 3 if they are close otherwise, HiS and do poison field and immob the melee if there is one or the fragile if not. Stay alive for that revealed, make sure to use steal on whichever is situationally profitable (always thief if there is one, makes escape possible), SR when you get stealth available again- pop poison fields on top of them until you get 4s of stealth left. Use Basilisk venom on whichever is lower or more dangerous. Lower-burst it down with your might stacks:Dangerous-kill the weak one.

Again, this works for me (shortbow is just if they aren’t perfectly coordinated (blind guard+fear necro for example) and I want someone elses opinion. =/

Sorry for wall of text. I have noticed that thieves are less and less viable per patch… only reason I see for nerffest is that no one seems to understand thief gameplay unless they run a backstab build… =/ Above post, your signature says it all.

Serious Thought.5394:

Well, hopefully, someone will try out my new-found build and at least tell me how viable it is [[IN THEIR OPINION]]. I have used it in sPvP and WvW with a high success rate. If it doesn’t work for anyone else, I need to closet the Thief and look elsewhere for a good class.

30/0/30/0/10- Pistol/Dagger and Shortbow
The Power row- Venoms grant might, venoms recharge faster, venoms last one extra time.

The Healing row- Stealth blinds, venoms siphon health when they hit (it adds dps and makes you far more survivable) and venoms apply to nearby allies as well as their benefits.

The Class row(steal)- This is preference, you could toss this into Acrobatics for might dodges or faster stealth movement. I have caltrops for the cripple because this is a ranged build.

HiS, Spider/Skale/Basilisk Venom + Shadow Refuge.
Single target, very easy- Cloak&Dagger+Steal for that ranged stealth + gap closer- dodge for caltrops that don’t break stealth and use Pistol 1 in stealth (no venom yet). Wait for revealed to end (number 3 is great, it gives you a free evade basically-use on HB or similar). Use HiS and Spider/Skale Venom- toss down Shadow Refuge, tap Basilisk venom- stay in the SR field, use Auto 1 for a massive lifesteal. Field+skill+trait. Also applies high condi. Should be downed or will down soon- if not down, your steal should be back shortly, keep evading repeat rotation or swap to shortbow and escape.

Multi-target is Shortbow- Pop Spid/Skal venoms and just auto (this works for 3 targets or less, otherwise just run- I haven’t made this work for 3 yet, but 2 is fabulous) until you run out of venoms. Tap your 3 if they are close otherwise, HiS and do poison field and immob the melee if there is one or the fragile if not. Stay alive for that revealed, make sure to use steal on whichever is situationally profitable (always thief if there is one, makes escape possible), SR when you get stealth available again- pop poison fields on top of them until you get 4s of stealth left. Use Basilisk venom on whichever is lower or more dangerous. Lower-burst it down with your might stacks:Dangerous-kill the weak one.

Again, this works for me (shortbow is just if they aren’t perfectly coordinated (blind guard+fear necro for example) and I want someone elses opinion. =/

Sorry for wall of text. I have noticed that thieves are less and less viable per patch… only reason I see for nerffest is that no one seems to understand thief gameplay unless they run a backstab build… =/ Above post, your signature says it all.

by the way I have never said this build or the other builds you posted before are not good. I’m just saying that before talking about “competitive builds” you should at least try them in a serious tournament (that is the only place where competitive builds realy work), everything else is counter productive.
have you tried those builds with success in wvw? realy? who cares! That’s not competitive. Your opponent were good? They were using top gears and foods? We will never know cos WvW is not meant to be balanced.
At the moment the only 2 builds that are being used by those few thieves that still play this class in tournaments are d\p Caed’s build and Jumper’s build with few changes. We have proves that those builds are still competitive. Everything else might be good for hotjoin and some soloQ.
In the end, the p\d venom share build you’re talking about is nothing realy original, I think that was already tested by many of us and it didn’t worked simply because venoms require too many traits for being viable like other utilities.

10/0/0/30/30 for high initiative regeneration and whatnot… Just run a zerker amulet and you’ll be doing at least as much, if not more damage than 10/30/0/30/0 or 0/30/0/30/10, whatever everybody uses nowadays…

Arganthium I like your build, I keep using it when I go on tPvP on my thief, but saying that this build does more daage then a 10 30 0 30 0 s\d is false.
Your build is still good if not better in a team fight situation where your damage is supported by at least another heavy dps. Nowadays against people running more tankish build, your damage output is not enough, in an 1v1 situation you lack the burst that other builds have. This build is very strong against other squishy dps build, cos it has high mobility and good sustained dmg.

Did anyone see the thieves in the finals of a recent tourney running 30/30/0/0/10? I’m not seeing the potential behind that build other than crossing your fingers and hoping the burst ends it.

@Kolly- why are you bashing at me so hard? I ask a serious question, offer my experience/opinion and you just bash the bajeezus out of my posts with a ton of tl;dr’s. I said “I have used it in sPvP and WvW with a high success rate.” please take my post seriously. Also, I mainly spvp when I try to see if something is “competitive”. WvW is far too easy since condi dmg bypasses toughness ratings- meaning burst scales slower than condi in the long run. Interesting, right? =)
@Hype- yea, used to run those builds with pistols instead for the pistol bouncing attacks+unload bombing…now its useless- pistol dmg is really weak.
In general- I can’t get myself to use/enjoy anything involving the sword…feels very unassassiny to me. I have never read/heard/watched anything with an assassin using a sword- its always with some exotic weapon or dagger or rifle or some-such. =/ Not bashing the sword, I just can’t use it because it doesn’t fit my play-style/image of a thief.
I consider thief to a Mesmer without clones basically- lock-down, high dmg, high confusion, stay mobile. =) Did anyone try the build? Can someone explain to me how to use s/d? The auto seems weak, 2 stills you during the after-cast (when you hit target), the evade on 3 has a cd or init cost if you want a no cd and the dmg is fairly negligible if you get ranged down, the 4 and 5 are skills I use because I am a dagger thief. But they don’t fit into sword play-style…a daze from behind is odd, a blind is more helpful to me. Any-who, how do I use s/d effectively? (am an experienced thief, can use all your terminology and stratagems and such and so.)

Builds aren’t the problem with thieves. There are a variety of solid builds out there even though 2 have solidified its place as the alpha predator builds.

The main problem is two-fold, the condition meta coupled with the shift towards a tank-meta.

The lack of condition removal is crushing to a thief. Not that we can’t access it, but rather by doing so we sacrifice the necessary pressure to 1v1 the meta condi classes.

Why do I say 1v1? In team-fights thieves are a liability. If you get focused you have to blow CD’s to JUST survive. Meaning there goes your burst or your safety net (depending if you ‘survive’ with disable shot or shadowstep or stealth). While you can be useful in team-fights, it’s unusual to see a thief consistently in them; hence the roaming title we’re notorious for.

Back to 1v1. In this meta far (enemy close) will typically be defended by warrior, engi, spirit ranger, guardian or in rare situations some form of necro.

Put all of the machismo stuff aside. I don’t care how many rangers you can 1v3 etc etc etc. Can you beat Elita One in a 1v1 at far? Can you beat Eurantien at a 1v1 at far. Eura is a bad example since he’s running a plethora of off-beat builds. Just because you 1v1’d some ranger means nothing. It has no bearing on whether or not rangers are where they should be with regard to the meta. To do justice I find it useful seeing how the top players are performing against each other AND considering how the builds fade throughout LB. I’m using LB as a reference only because it’s where I actually have experience. They are definitely flawed and need to be re-worked. But it’s no surprise that caed, cruuk, magic tokerr are CONSTANTLY in the top 100.

Back on topic, here are my thoughts, and I have a TON of experience:
Spirit Ranger 1v1 far: I honestly have no idea how other thieves do it or if they even try. I have personally found my niche to beating them and it was conveniently what I’ve been running even before that point. By this I mean I haven’t lost to a spirit ranger 1v1 far in as many top tier matches I can remember. Elita, Deku are the two most recent that come to mind. However I don’t run meta since I bring smoke screen.

Since I don’t know how other thieves have been performing I consider it an extremely difficult match-up for most since they can’t afford to make mistakes and the enemy can afford to make tons.

1v1 Bunker Warrior. From my knowledge it’s literally impossible and a complete waste of time to 1v1 them. I don’t care if you SAY you’ve 1v1’d a pure bunker warrior. Have you 1v1’d Juaraz? If no, then unless you name a credible top tier bunker warrior it means nothing to me. If they’re more of a hybrid then it’s less of a problem. Even if someone like Caed CAN take down Juaraz, I’m estimating a 2minute fight while Juaraz owns the point and doesn’t get decapped those entire 2 minutes.

1v1 guardian. The problem is high-level home pt guardians have become increasingly rare since warriors are doing it better (passive proc to stability and an active proc). A top tier guardian shouldn’t die -quickly- to a thief. Meaning expect a 1 fight even in top tier matches.

1v1 Necro. Now we get into necro a shadey area where there’s a ton of really bad ones, and some amazing ones. The biggest name coming to mind immediately is Jery E, someone who has been play necro before they were buffed and has had that experience advantage. No recent 1v1 with him comes to mind but I am pretty sure he could obliterate me. Scrub necros will blow their evades when you’re not even bursting so it doesn’t even matter. What matters is the necros who KNOW when to blow their fears, their dodges, hit you with chill, torment, etc. It literally becomes a hard-counter at that point since they can react to you, and your only reaction besides blowing your dodges on as many wells as you can is to disengage…

My thoughts on thief. I think thief is in a good place. I do not think the meta is in a good place. Risk vs Reward: thieves typically put everything on the line to go as high in damage as possible while still maintaining some nifty tricks. I think thieves should be rewarded more for taking this risk, and they should be rewarded more for interrupting key spells.

It’s just not fun for most people to play thief when your friend can hop on a warrior, attach the meta build and just eat your attacks with no punishment for speccing to be so tanky. He would even kill you if you didn’t disengage.

Right now thieves are great for destroying bads, and fun in casual play, but when you start playing in the higher echelons you realize how easy it is to exploit the evades, condi spam, and tankiness in the game.

…continued wall of text

For me a thief’s only saving grace is a number game. For example, if you consider the average effect any given player has on a game as a 1.0 meaning the total average should be about a 5.0 if all players are playing equally valuable specs, then a thief’s value is: XX+Y where more often than not XX is less than 1.

Let’s say a thief has a value of .85 meaning he’s running sub-optimal. The Y value has yet to be calculated though. Y represents is an artificial value that becomes true should he succeed. Y is based off of his ability to increase the numbers in fights.

For example, let’s say the game just started and the Thief RED runs to far pt solo and sees a bunker war going there from the blue team, so instead of pushing far he goes mid. Thief BLUE (the other thief) also rushed to the enemy far (this is reds home now) sees a bunker warrior and decides to engage. He temp stalls the cap (10second stall until bunk war caps through thief stealthing). 2 mins later thief gives up, disengages to go help team elsewhere.

Thief RED (the one who disengaged immediately) went to mid to the teamfight where his team was originally 3v3 and he made it a 4v3.

At first glance it appears that thief RED made the better choice. But that’s ONLY dependent on his true value, Y.

For equality purposes let’s assume everyone in the game is a bunker warrior except the thieves.

Thief RED only made a better choice if he can kill someone at mid in the 4v3 where he is a number up. However if Thief RED + his 3 bunker warriors at mid can’t kill ANYTHING, then the 10seconds (10 points) that thief BLUE stalled is worth more and technically the better decision, because he realized (or didn’t but still benefited from it) how little he was worth in the value of the game.

However, thief RED only has to have a Y value of 15.1 to be useful in this game. So let’s say he goes mid, wins the 4v3 and they cap it. His Y value is much higher than .15, meaning he has surpassed the 1.0 mark, the average of the game.

It’s my way of thinking of a thief’s value. It’s not just based on team fights or 1v1’s or res potential. The Y value is affected by mobility and the ability to rapidly influence the numbers in skirmishes.

Since when is HS spam and auto spam a “competitive” build?

Lux.7169:

Builds aren’t the problem with thieves. There are a variety of solid builds out there even though 2 have solidified its place as the alpha predator builds.

The main problem is two-fold, the condition meta coupled with the shift towards a tank-meta.

The lack of condition removal is crushing to a thief. Not that we can’t access it, but rather by doing so we sacrifice the necessary pressure to 1v1 the meta condi classes.

Why do I say 1v1? In team-fights thieves are a liability. If you get focused you have to blow CD’s to JUST survive. Meaning there goes your burst or your safety net (depending if you ‘survive’ with disable shot or shadowstep or stealth). While you can be useful in team-fights, it’s unusual to see a thief consistently in them; hence the roaming title we’re notorious for.

Back to 1v1. In this meta far (enemy close) will typically be defended by warrior, engi, spirit ranger, guardian or in rare situations some form of necro.

Put all of the machismo stuff aside. I don’t care how many rangers you can 1v3 etc etc etc. Can you beat Elita One in a 1v1 at far? Can you beat Eurantien at a 1v1 at far. Eura is a bad example since he’s running a plethora of off-beat builds. Just because you 1v1’d some ranger means nothing. It has no bearing on whether or not rangers are where they should be with regard to the meta. To do justice I find it useful seeing how the top players are performing against each other AND considering how the builds fade throughout LB. I’m using LB as a reference only because it’s where I actually have experience. They are definitely flawed and need to be re-worked. But it’s no surprise that caed, cruuk, magic tokerr are CONSTANTLY in the top 100.

Back on topic, here are my thoughts, and I have a TON of experience:
Spirit Ranger 1v1 far: I honestly have no idea how other thieves do it or if they even try. I have personally found my niche to beating them and it was conveniently what I’ve been running even before that point. By this I mean I haven’t lost to a spirit ranger 1v1 far in as many top tier matches I can remember. Elita, Deku are the two most recent that come to mind. However I don’t run meta since I bring smoke screen.

Since I don’t know how other thieves have been performing I consider it an extremely difficult match-up for most since they can’t afford to make mistakes and the enemy can afford to make tons.

1v1 Bunker Warrior. From my knowledge it’s literally impossible and a complete waste of time to 1v1 them. I don’t care if you SAY you’ve 1v1’d a pure bunker warrior. Have you 1v1’d Juaraz? If no, then unless you name a credible top tier bunker warrior it means nothing to me. If they’re more of a hybrid then it’s less of a problem. Even if someone like Caed CAN take down Juaraz, I’m estimating a 2minute fight while Juaraz owns the point and doesn’t get decapped those entire 2 minutes.

1v1 guardian. The problem is high-level home pt guardians have become increasingly rare since warriors are doing it better (passive proc to stability and an active proc). A top tier guardian shouldn’t die -quickly- to a thief. Meaning expect a 1 fight even in top tier matches.

1v1 Necro. Now we get into necro a shadey area where there’s a ton of really bad ones, and some amazing ones. The biggest name coming to mind immediately is Jery E, someone who has been play necro before they were buffed and has had that experience advantage. No recent 1v1 with him comes to mind but I am pretty sure he could obliterate me. Scrub necros will blow their evades when you’re not even bursting so it doesn’t even matter. What matters is the necros who KNOW when to blow their fears, their dodges, hit you with chill, torment, etc. It literally becomes a hard-counter at that point since they can react to you, and your only reaction besides blowing your dodges on as many wells as you can is to disengage…

My thoughts on thief. I think thief is in a good place. I do not think the meta is in a good place. Risk vs Reward: thieves typically put everything on the line to go as high in damage as possible while still maintaining some nifty tricks. I think thieves should be rewarded more for taking this risk, and they should be rewarded more for interrupting key spells.

It’s just not fun for most people to play thief when your friend can hop on a warrior, attach the meta build and just eat your attacks with no punishment for speccing to be so tanky. He would even kill you if you didn’t disengage.

Right now thieves are great for destroying bads, and fun in casual play, but when you start playing in the higher echelons you realize how easy it is to exploit the evades, condi spam, and tankiness in the game.

We can close this useless topic now. Finally someone competent spoke true things.