Guild Wars 2

With the lack of serious balance changes last patch I compiled a list of tweaks and changes to the Thief class that seemed appropriate to me.

Trait and ability changes

-Heartseeker cost increased to 4 Initiative (up from 3)
-Dancing Dagger cost reduced to 3 Initiative (down from 4)
-Mug damage reduced by approximately 50%. Mug now also applies 4 Bleeds for 4 seconds.
-Infiltrator’s Singet now also steals a boon from the target when used.
-Body Shot now also applies 4 seconds of Weakness to the target.
-Flanking Strike range increased to 200 (up from 130) and pathing improved.
-Clusterbomb projectile speed increased by 50%.
-Choking Gas range increased to be more consistent with Clusterbomb.

Fixes

-Disabling Shot should no longer have positioning and latency issues.
-Fixed an issue that allowed channeled abilities to continue hitting a target in stealth.
-Fixed pathing errors affecting Scorpion Wire and other projectiles.
-Fixed pathing errors effecting Shadowsteps on uneven surfaces.
-Fixed character rendering issues when using Shadowsteps while invisble.
-Fixed an issue that caused the Hidden Killer trait not to work when attacking from Stealth.
-Thieves now have the highest rendering priority when coming out of Stealth in WvW.

Dee Jay.2460:

[cut]
-Thieves now have the highest rendering priority when coming out of Stealth in WvW.

lol why ? so a 20ppl zerg exiting from a mesmer portal can exploit culling and just thieves will be killed ?

won’t happen, keep dreaming….

stealth debuff duration increased to 15s !
just a dream, i know…

Dee Jay.2460:

With the lack of serious balance changes last patch I compiled a list of tweaks and changes to the Thief class that seemed appropriate to me.

Trait and ability changes

-Heartseeker cost increased to 4 Initiative (up from 3)
-Dancing Dagger cost reduced to 3 Initiative (down from 4)
-Mug damage reduced by approximately 50%. Mug now also applies 4 Bleeds for 4 seconds.
-Infiltrator’s Singet now also steals a boon from the target when used.
-Body Shot now also applies 4 seconds of Weakness to the target.
-Flanking Strike range increased to 200 (up from 130) and pathing improved.
-Choking Gas range targeting improved to be more consistent with similar abilities.

Fixes

-Fixed an issue that allowed channeled abilities to continue hitting a target in stealth.
-Fixed pathing errors affecting Scorpion Wire and other projectiles.
-Fixed pathing errors effecting Shadowsteps on uneven surfaces.
-Fixed character rendering issues when using Shadowsteps while invisble.
-Thieves now have the highest rendering priority when coming out of Stealth in WvW.

Disagree with all your trait changes but agree with all your bug fixes. To clarify the rendering though, that would only be true for thieves in a 400m range.

The only real changes that are likely to happen is something affecting permastealth builds. In addition, certain weapon sets such kitten p need damage buffs. It is weak right now compared to the other sets.

I agree in that mug is too strong. At the very least it should be a t3 major trait or make it non-crit damage.
I also agree flanking strike needs a buff and a fix. Heart seeker is fine as is. I would agree with the dancing dagger change is damage was tuned to compensate so that it becomes more of a utility. Body shot should be a pboe and aoe blast effect.
Venom charges should go back to only using one charge per attack which will allow multiple applications through cleave pierce and bounce for only 1 charge.

Added a new grandmaster trait:
Assassin’s Promise – If your attack downs a target, he is immeditately defeated.

Traps debugged
Scorpion wire debugged
Dancing dagger buff (ini, crippling duration, dmg, velocity, something)
Shadow strike causing blind on the first hit (please) or not getting kitten by any small elevation.
Trait sweep in general, some of these traits I find to be stupid srs.
Body shot change. Pistols in general are cool but body shot needs a change anything else is just a tweak.

Balance changes for thief and NOTHING for Pistols or Swords?

Changed Traits to assist with swords.
Sword Training – Swords deal 10% more damage. (this replaces Combined Training.)

Finesse Master – Swords have 10% more critical chance. (this replaces Combo Critical Chance.)

Pistols have had there refire rate fixed, they are now 0.25 fire rate, 0.25 refire rate. (this allows Pistols to fire 2 shots a second.)
Body Shot reduced to ‘2’ initiative.
Unload reduced to ‘4’ initiative.
Headshot reduced to ‘2’ initiative, damage has been tripled.
Black Powder reduced to ‘5’ initiative, the radius of the combo field has been increased to 240.

Steal Recharge Rate increased to 2% per point from 1%.

Or:

All the changes above +
2% Steal Recharge rate. (up from 1%.)

Initiative Recharges at a rate of 1 every second instead of every 1.6 seconds.

Daecollo.9578:

Steal Recharge Rate increased to 2% per point from 1%.

This. Just this. Naturally, Mug will need to be toned down for it, but oh god yes, this.

+60% steal recharge rate with all the ultility it offers xD yes plz

Daecollo.9578:

Black Powder reduced to ‘5’ initiative, the radius of the combo field has been increased to 240.

WUT.

Steal Recharge Rate increased to 2% per point from 1%.

Okay :P

Mug Damage Reduced, Steal Recharge +ed.

Thieves LACK utility, giving Steal a 60% Recharge rate with 30 points would make them great utility.

Trickery tree should have boon duration.
Vitality tree should have condition damage.

Some good changes OP, I think you should add some of these too:
Backstab damage increased by 100%
Steal uses 5 initiative instead of being on CD.
Heartseeker will always crit against enemies <25% hp.
Deathblossom cripples.
Revealed reduced to 1second duration

Derk.3189:

Some good changes OP, I think you should add some of these too:
Backstab damage increased by 100%
Steal uses 5 initiative instead of being on CD.
Heartseeker will always crit against enemies <25% hp.
Deathblossom cripples.
Revealed reduced to 1second duration

And Basilisk Venom should last 20 secs, and require 5 stunbreakers to get out of

Kylar.5127:

Derk.3189:

Some good changes OP, I think you should add some of these too:
Backstab damage increased by 100%
Steal uses 5 initiative instead of being on CD.
Heartseeker will always crit against enemies <25% hp.
Deathblossom cripples.
Revealed reduced to 1second duration

And Basilisk Venom should last 20 secs, and require 5 stunbreakers to get out of

LOL, did they change it sso stealing doesnt activate bas venom now? becuase i dont petrify when i steal with it

Whenever thieves go into stealth as well, they gain retaliation also, shadow step stealths you for 15 seconds XD

No balance changes

some fixes if the current cycle continues thieves havent been touched at all really its been pretty much small buffs since november 15th.

- Dancing Dagger: The skill’s effect has been changed to reddish, from previous bluish.
- Cluster Bomb: More sparks added to the proyectile.
- Traps: Now, your character laughs evilly whenever he sets a trap.
- Pistols: Inserted a quick-reload animation between shots, to make the skill’s activation time more consistent with its cooldown. This change is only cosmetic, not affecting current activation time.
- Venoms: Reverted previous change. Now all ‘venom’ skills again use the term ‘poison’

Mug made into an elite with a 240 second cooldown, so steal and mug no longer work together, either you steal a skill OR you can use mug to cause a reduced 4k crit damage hit.

Heartseeker made into 6 ini, 15 second cooldown skill.

CnD cooldown increased to 30 seconds.

Using any attack reveal you and you cannot restealth for 5 seconds, any attempt to do so with waste that skill and put it on cooldown. Includes all weapon types and skills.

You are revealed when with 400 range of any player and remain revealed until out of that range.

Any attack that is dodged/blocked causes your stealth to be disabled for 5 seconds.

Now you are like most other classes that have long cooldown on their main attacks.

Cannot attack more than twice per second.

Make the above changes and I’d actually want to play thief in wvw as it would take skill to play well.

RedSpectrum.1975:

Kylar.5127:

Derk.3189:

Some good changes OP, I think you should add some of these too:
Backstab damage increased by 100%
Steal uses 5 initiative instead of being on CD.
Heartseeker will always crit against enemies <25% hp.
Deathblossom cripples.
Revealed reduced to 1second duration

And Basilisk Venom should last 20 secs, and require 5 stunbreakers to get out of

LOL, did they change it sso stealing doesnt activate bas venom now? becuase i dont petrify when i steal with it

You need mug on steal to petrify someone while stealing

Kyrion.2749:

- Traps: Now, your character laughs evilly whenever he sets a trap.

rofl! if this change goes live i’ll put at least 1 trap in bar.

Daendur.2357:

Kyrion.2749:

- Traps: Now, your character laughs evilly whenever he sets a trap.

rofl! if this change goes live i’ll put at least 1 trap in bar.

Oh god no. Imagine all the high pitched female asura lol spam.

People play with sounds turned on?!

Victory.2879:

Mug made into an elite with a 240 second cooldown, so steal and mug no longer work together, either you steal a skill OR you can use mug to cause a reduced 4k crit damage hit.

Heartseeker made into 6 ini, 15 second cooldown skill.

CnD cooldown increased to 30 seconds.

Using any attack reveal you and you cannot restealth for 5 seconds, any attempt to do so with waste that skill and put it on cooldown. Includes all weapon types and skills.

You are revealed when with 400 range of any player and remain revealed until out of that range.

Any attack that is dodged/blocked causes your stealth to be disabled for 5 seconds.

Now you are like most other classes that have long cooldown on their main attacks.

Cannot attack more than twice per second.

Make the above changes and I’d actually want to play thief in wvw as it would take skill to play well.

you do know thief’s use initiative and they dont have cool downs right? I doubt that will ever change.

What I expect:
- 15% Backstab nerf, buff to #1 chain to compensate
- Clusterbomb nerf
- Mug nerf, or it being swapped to a higher tier

What I want:
- 15% buff to Pistol Whip in PVE only
- 15% buff to Vital Shot
- Black Powder becomes a ground-target AoE with 900 range, making it more useful for P/P without nerfing it for D/P or S/P.
- Body Shot vulnerability increased to 8 seconds baseline and damage increased so it’s not as big of a personal DPS loss to use it.
- Shadow Shot root removed (please do this ANET)
- Flanking Strike animation sped up or instantly teleports you behind the target, provides a block charge to make up for the loss of evasion.

Blacksarevok.8104:

What I expect:
- 15% Backstab nerf, buff to #1 chain to compensate
- Clusterbomb nerf
- Mug nerf, or it being swapped to a higher tier

What I want:
- 15% buff to Pistol Whip in PVE only
- 15% buff to Vital Shot
- Black Powder becomes a ground-target AoE with 900 range, making it more useful for P/P without nerfing it for D/P or S/P.
- Body Shot vulnerability increased to 8 seconds baseline and damage increased so it’s not as big of a personal DPS loss to use it.
- Shadow Shot root removed (please do this ANET)
- Flanking Strike animation sped up or instantly teleports you behind the target, provides a block charge to make up for the loss of evasion.

What I expect:
Huge Damage Nerfs.

What I want:
Not to be Nerfed and to actually have useful boons.

Daecollo.9578:

Blacksarevok.8104:

What I expect:
- 15% Backstab nerf, buff to #1 chain to compensate
- Clusterbomb nerf
- Mug nerf, or it being swapped to a higher tier

What I want:
- 15% buff to Pistol Whip in PVE only
- 15% buff to Vital Shot
- Black Powder becomes a ground-target AoE with 900 range, making it more useful for P/P without nerfing it for D/P or S/P.
- Body Shot vulnerability increased to 8 seconds baseline and damage increased so it’s not as big of a personal DPS loss to use it.
- Shadow Shot root removed (please do this ANET)
- Flanking Strike animation sped up or instantly teleports you behind the target, provides a block charge to make up for the loss of evasion.

What I expect:
Huge Damage Nerfs.

What I want:
Not to be Nerfed and to actually have useful boons.

Pretty much.

Honestly, it’s better to expect to be nerfed and get buffs/fixes than to expect to be buffed/fixed and get nerfed.

Remember last patch when everyone swore Backstab + Mug were getting nerfed, and it never happened? Feels good mannnn

Victory.2879:

Mug made into an elite with a 240 second cooldown, so steal and mug no longer work together, either you steal a skill OR you can use mug to cause a reduced 4k crit damage hit.

Heartseeker made into 6 ini, 15 second cooldown skill.

CnD cooldown increased to 30 seconds.

Using any attack reveal you and you cannot restealth for 5 seconds, any attempt to do so with waste that skill and put it on cooldown. Includes all weapon types and skills.

You are revealed when with 400 range of any player and remain revealed until out of that range.

Any attack that is dodged/blocked causes your stealth to be disabled for 5 seconds.

Now you are like most other classes that have long cooldown on their main attacks.

Cannot attack more than twice per second.

Make the above changes and I’d actually want to play thief in wvw as it would take skill to play well.

I couldn’t stop laughing when I ready this. Thieves use initiative, not cooldowns… Also, are you suggesting it doesn’t take skill to play a thief? Wrong…………….. So basically what you’re suggesting is that they just delete the thief profession altogether. Get real, learn to counter and play against thieves instead of raging on here cause you don’t take the time to figure out your own class.

A fix for shadowstepping would be appreciated

• slopes are no longer an issue
• pc don’t wind up below the surface

After some thought I see 33% damage reduction to mug if that.

I honestly really don’t see anymore nerfs coming our way people always prophet that we will be nerfed but last was 15 november and that was spvp mostly now that I looked back at the notes more.

I think we will see more tweaks to thief, more buffs.

I don’t see any nerfs coming. Good players counter thieves and make for gereat fights. If you WvW and haven’t been pulled from at least 50% of your refuges then you are lucky. It didn’t get consistent until the last few weeks it seems. Maybe it’s just the new matchup.

Thieves are well and balanced assuming full knowledge of the game and a basic twitch skill level. People who complain don’t have the twitch or don’t understand mechanics, simple as that (assuming even gear/level). GW2 with it’s stun break system, active evades and mobile casting is the most twitch MMO I’ve ever played.

Stiv.1820:

I don’t see any nerfs coming. Good players counter thieves and make for gereat fights. If you WvW and haven’t been pulled from at least 50% of your refuges then you are lucky. It didn’t get consistent until the last few weeks it seems. Maybe it’s just the new matchup.

Thieves are well and balanced assuming full knowledge of the game and a basic twitch skill level. People who complain don’t have the twitch or don’t understand mechanics, simple as that (assuming even gear/level). GW2 with it’s stun break system, active evades and mobile casting is the most twitch MMO I’ve ever played.

Yea I agree Stiv shadow refuge isn’t even safe anymore.

oZii.2864:

Stiv.1820:

I don’t see any nerfs coming. Good players counter thieves and make for gereat fights. If you WvW and haven’t been pulled from at least 50% of your refuges then you are lucky. It didn’t get consistent until the last few weeks it seems. Maybe it’s just the new matchup.

Thieves are well and balanced assuming full knowledge of the game and a basic twitch skill level. People who complain don’t have the twitch or don’t understand mechanics, simple as that (assuming even gear/level). GW2 with it’s stun break system, active evades and mobile casting is the most twitch MMO I’ve ever played.

Yea I agree Stiv shadow refuge isn’t even safe anymore.

Yea it’s with full endurance you can roll in it or if you place it against a wall, at least you can protect yourself from a KB. I mostly now use it offensively. As a last ditch skill it really is not reliable anymore.

No balance changes, but culling will get fixed a bit more and as a result thieves will be perceived as weaker than before.

lettucemode.3789:

No balance changes, but culling will get fixed a bit more and as a result thieves will be perceived as weaker than before.

Culling is such an overblown scapegoat though. I can’t wait until they fix it then the whiners realize it had nothing to do with why they were loosing. The only time it’s an issue is extreme zerg situations anyway which individual professions hardly matter at all.

Stiv.1820:

lettucemode.3789:

No balance changes, but culling will get fixed a bit more and as a result thieves will be perceived as weaker than before.

Culling is such an overblown scapegoat though. I can’t wait until they fix it then the whiners realize it had nothing to do with why they were loosing. The only time it’s an issue is extreme zerg situations anyway which individual professions hardly matter at all.

this

i doubt culling makes any difference at all… but we will see

ensoriki.5789:

Was waiting for your profession critique.
Now disappointed Q_Q.

Honestly…yeah. I owe Dee Jay an apology for giving this a good faith effort, and the jokers in the thread don’t detract from that. Sorry man.

First glance thoughts:

-Heartseeker cost increased to 4 Initiative (up from 3)

I really dislike this proposal. It represents a monstrous nerf to D/P, and represents a bigger hit to game play than actual power. Gap closers need to be cheap to encourage interesting combat once joined, and the power level of the skill is such that its use is sub-optimal once you’ve closed the gap, up until your target is below 25% health (at which point you’re not going to be spamming it much since it should be dropping them in 1-2 shots anyway).

I agree that impressively bad players over-use the skill as a crutch against their inability to move; and that not quite as bad but still bad players lose to heartseeker spam because they do not know how to defend themselves in a reasonable manner. Unless we’re going to start balancing the game around what bad players are doing, this doesn’t make any sense.

-Dancing Dagger cost reduced to 3 Initiative (down from 4)

You’re kidding right? You want to make what is already a 100% uptime projectile snare even more spammable?

I agree that the damage on the skill was overnerfed and that some bounce back is warranted on that, but the utility part of the skill is already very strong and is not due a buff.

-Mug damage reduced by approximately 50%. Mug now also applies 4 Bleeds for 4 seconds.

Interesting. I think the power level you’re proposing is roughly in the right place, but why do you prefer bleeds here? I don’t get the flavor and I don’t see how they enhance gameplay.

I think a simple ratio reduction does the job here just fine. The big packet is where the play is, and I don’t see what we gain here by shifting power into something else. Find the biggest number you can put on it without breaking things and run with that.

-Infiltrator’s Singet now also steals a boon from the target when used.

I like this, it’s a good idea for an active that lacks oomph. I’m going to steal this one.

-Body Shot now also applies 4 seconds of Weakness to the target.

Eeeeh.

I think this is an ok buff, but it doesn’t make me want to spend initiative on the skill over the other options available. Not that weakness is bad, but I don’t want to actually pay for it.

Ensign.2189:

First glance thoughts:

-Heartseeker cost increased to 4 Initiative (up from 3)

I really dislike this proposal. It represents a monstrous nerf to D/P, and represents a bigger hit to game play than actual power. Gap closers need to be cheap to encourage interesting combat once joined, and the power level of the skill is such that its use is sub-optimal once you’ve closed the gap, up until your target is below 25% health (at which point you’re not going to be spamming it much since it should be dropping them in 1-2 shots anyway).

I agree that impressively bad players over-use the skill as a crutch against their inability to move; and that not quite as bad but still bad players lose to heartseeker spam because they do not know how to defend themselves in a reasonable manner. Unless we’re going to start balancing the game around what bad players are doing, this doesn’t make any sense.

-Dancing Dagger cost reduced to 3 Initiative (down from 4)

You’re kidding right? You want to make what is already a 100% uptime projectile snare even more spammable?

I agree that the damage on the skill was overnerfed and that some bounce back is warranted on that, but the utility part of the skill is already very strong and is not due a buff.

-Mug damage reduced by approximately 50%. Mug now also applies 4 Bleeds for 4 seconds.

Interesting. I think the power level you’re proposing is roughly in the right place, but why do you prefer bleeds here? I don’t get the flavor and I don’t see how they enhance gameplay.

I think a simple ratio reduction does the job here just fine. The big packet is where the play is, and I don’t see what we gain here by shifting power into something else. Find the biggest number you can put on it without breaking things and run with that.

-Infiltrator’s Singet now also steals a boon from the target when used.

I like this, it’s a good idea for an active that lacks oomph. I’m going to steal this one.

-Body Shot now also applies 4 seconds of Weakness to the target.

Eeeeh.

I think this is an ok buff, but it doesn’t make me want to spend initiative on the skill over the other options available. Not that weakness is bad, but I don’t want to actually pay for it.

Wow, some honest feedback….wouldn’t have expect that at this point.

However I don’t see how you can make that argument about Heartseeker and Dancing Dagger.

Heartseeker is an incredibly powerful ability. It’s a high damage ability, a leap-finisher allowing you to utilize all kinds of combo fields as well as a gap closer. It also happens to be targeted which makes it incredibly easy to use effectively.

It is simply far too efficient an ability to have it cost less than almost all our other abilities. The cost/effect ratio is simply off with this ability. It’s too good and too cheap to use.

That’s why I think it deserves to cost a little more.

Dancing Dagger is in a similar situation, just on the other end. It too is essentially a gap closer, but by snaring the target rather than leaping. It kind of pales when compared to Heartseeker due to its cost and multi-target niche.

I honestly can’t remember when I last used Dancing Dagger simply because it’s so expensive. The smaller the niche an ability fills, the cheaper it should be.

The niche Heartseeker fills is far larger than the niche Dancing Dagger fills and that should be reflected in the costs.

And let’s face it, and indirect damage nerf wouldn’t be uncalled for on Thieves.

As for Mug I liked the idea of adding Bleeds because it makes the trait more attractive for Condition builds. Deadly Arts after all caters both to Power builds as well as Venom/Condition builds and I think Mug should reflect that.

If you just reduced the damage of Mug then there’d be no reason for a Condition build to ever take it again. This way it has something for both.

As for Body Shot …..I can’t really say much about that. It’s clear the ability needs a buff and Pistols have no source of Weakness so yeah. It also happened to suit the name of the ability to an extent but obviously it’s not ideal. This was just a simple way to make the ability more attractive without requiring too much work.

Dee Jay.2460:

Ensign.2189:

First glance thoughts:

-Heartseeker cost increased to 4 Initiative (up from 3)

I really dislike this proposal. It represents a monstrous nerf to D/P, and represents a bigger hit to game play than actual power. Gap closers need to be cheap to encourage interesting combat once joined, and the power level of the skill is such that its use is sub-optimal once you’ve closed the gap, up until your target is below 25% health (at which point you’re not going to be spamming it much since it should be dropping them in 1-2 shots anyway).

I agree that impressively bad players over-use the skill as a crutch against their inability to move; and that not quite as bad but still bad players lose to heartseeker spam because they do not know how to defend themselves in a reasonable manner. Unless we’re going to start balancing the game around what bad players are doing, this doesn’t make any sense.

-Dancing Dagger cost reduced to 3 Initiative (down from 4)

You’re kidding right? You want to make what is already a 100% uptime projectile snare even more spammable?

I agree that the damage on the skill was overnerfed and that some bounce back is warranted on that, but the utility part of the skill is already very strong and is not due a buff.

-Mug damage reduced by approximately 50%. Mug now also applies 4 Bleeds for 4 seconds.

Interesting. I think the power level you’re proposing is roughly in the right place, but why do you prefer bleeds here? I don’t get the flavor and I don’t see how they enhance gameplay.

I think a simple ratio reduction does the job here just fine. The big packet is where the play is, and I don’t see what we gain here by shifting power into something else. Find the biggest number you can put on it without breaking things and run with that.

-Infiltrator’s Singet now also steals a boon from the target when used.

I like this, it’s a good idea for an active that lacks oomph. I’m going to steal this one.

-Body Shot now also applies 4 seconds of Weakness to the target.

Eeeeh.

I think this is an ok buff, but it doesn’t make me want to spend initiative on the skill over the other options available. Not that weakness is bad, but I don’t want to actually pay for it.

Wow, some honest feedback….wouldn’t have expect that at this point.

However I don’t see how you can make that argument about Heartseeker and Dancing Dagger.

Heartseeker is an incredibly powerful ability. It’s a high damage ability, a leap-finisher allowing you to utilize all kinds of combo fields as well as a gap closer. It also happens to be targeted which makes it incredibly easy to use effectively.

It is simply far too efficient an ability to have it cost less than almost all our other abilities. The cost/effect ratio is simply off with this ability. It’s too good and too cheap to use.

That’s why I think it deserves to cost a little more.

Dancing Dagger is in a similar situation, just on the other end. It too is essentially a gap closer, but by snaring the target rather than leaping. It kind of pales when compared to Heartseeker due to its cost and multi-target niche.

I honestly can’t remember when I last used Dancing Dagger simply because it’s so expensive. The smaller the niche an ability fills, the cheaper it should be.

The niche Heartseeker fills is far larger than the niche Dancing Dagger fills.

I don’t think HS needs a nerf. When fighting a thief, you know exactly how Heartseeker works and that the enemy thief is going to use it multiple times in a row, and information is the best kind of advantage in a competitive environment. After all, if you know what your opponent is going to do, you can counter it. If a thief starts HSing me I know exactly when to block, dodge, or drop an AoE, and after that’s done with he has no initiative left. He trades relentless offense for the fact that he’s boned and standing directly next to me if it doesn’t work. Kind of like 6 pooling in starcraft.

I don’t have a high-level thief, but having been on the receiving end of HS for many a month I think it’s fine as is.

Other stuff I think is important:

-Pistol Whip- reduce the wind-up time before the daze.

I suggest this for two reasons. First, it makes it much more functional as a utility skill. When it comes to using this for the tactical daze and interrupt, shaving a few tenths of a second off the front can make a big difference.

Second, it sneaks a bit more effective damage onto the skill without making it more bursty. Shaving two tenths of a second off the front pushes the DPS of Pistol Whip up ~7%, but doesn’t help haste/pistol whip spam nearly as much.

-Head Shot add a 4 second confusion on hit

I liked this solution to put a bit more oomph onto Head Shot that is both flavorful and gives it some alternative game play. A straight damage buff would also work, but that is dangerous due to the power of stuns combined with damage compression; this reinforces the role of the skill as being disruptive.

-Black Powder Shot uses ground targeting and deals light AoE damage.

I’m pushing this one hard. It’s not a big deal for melee builds that want to stand in the field with their foes anyway, but it’s a really big deal for ranged pistol users who want to put their foe in a field without necessarily closing with their target – it also gives it a lot more value for assisting with peeling, and lets you pre-emptively cast it before closing with a target. It’s a change that adds a lot of gameplay without affecting the peak power too much, which is exactly the kind of change you want on a skill like this.

-Cluster Bomb faster projectile.

There’s a fine balance here, obviously, between a fast projectile and something you can readily detonate. At the moment, however, you can outrun your own Cluster Bombs. This does creep the power level up a bit, but the real intention is to make the weapon not feel like you’re slogging through molasses whenever you try and do anything.

+ some minor tweaks to damage numbers, and changes to underwater sets that no one cares about. Traits are a whole different conversation.

Ensign.2189:

-snip-

I like all of these ideas, especially the Black Powder one.

The reason I kept my above suggestions fairly simple is because realistically, ANet is going to changing much in the way abilities work at this point.

Considering the snail pace at which they make balance changes even something as simple as a cost increase is a pretty “dramatic” change.

I too would love to see some more fundamental changes to abilities but I don’t think it’s realistic to expect that at this point.

lettucemode.3789:

I don’t think HS needs a nerf. When fighting a thief, you know exactly how Heartseeker works and that the enemy thief is going to use it multiple times in a row, and information is the best kind of advantage in a competitive environment. After all, if you know what your opponent is going to do, you can counter it. If a thief starts HSing me I know exactly when to block, dodge, or drop an AoE, and after that’s done with he has no initiative left. He trades relentless offense for the fact that he’s boned and standing directly next to me if it doesn’t work. Kind of like 6 pooling in starcraft.

I don’t have a high-level thief, but having been on the receiving end of HS for many a month I think it’s fine as is.

We’re arguing from two different perspectives here.

You’re saying that Heartseekers cost is ok because it is easy to counter and predict.

That may be true, but I’d say almost every ability you can spam is easy to predict and counter.

My argument is coming from a different point of view and is about efficiency. I argue that considering the damage, utility and usability of Heartseeker, it is too effective at 3 Initiative.

This isn’t directly about nerfing Heartseeker spam (although the relative efficiency is a big reason why it happens) but bringing it more in line with our other abilities regarding cost/effect.

Dee Jay.2460:

The smaller the niche an ability fills, the cheaper it should be.

This is the primary source of our disagreement. Balance isn’t nerfing general purpose skills until they’re so weak that they’re niche, and buffing niche skills until they’re so powerful they become general purpose. Balancing skills means ensuring that there are interesting trade-offs in which skills you use in different situations. It’s totally possible to use one skill 100x more often than another and still have them be balanced.

Dancing Dagger is a very clear example of why you can’t balance skills that way. It was previously so good that you would use it for the damage alone, making a general purpose skill out of what should be a niche skill. Dancing Dagger has four use cases – when you’re using it for damage against a single target, for damage against multiple targets, for cripple against a single target, and cripple against multiple targets.

As it stands, it is a good skill when crippling a single target, and a crazy good skill when crippling multiple targets. The problem is that its damage cases are no longer any good, which is particularly a problem in PvE. Previously, the skill was decent for damage against a single target, and totally ridiculous when you had two targets; now it’s junk against a single target, and not good enough against multiple targets.

Balancing the skill in this case means evening it out. Lowering the initiative cost makes the cripple use cases go insane, which is why I’m strongly opposed to that as a buff. Raising the damage focuses the improvements on the weaker use cases, where the skill needs help. In particular, I think the damage needs to be buffed until its damage against multiple targets is attractive. If you can get the skill to hit two targets twice each, the skill should feel great. That means a fairly modest damage buff, to somewhere in the 0.6-0.75 ratio range (from 0.5). That evens the skill out without breaking its best possible use cases.

Heartseeker is a general purpose skill, but it is also rarely the best skill. It is valuable as a gap closer, but its value in that role drops as you get better at the game. It is valuable as a finisher, but as your opponents improve the use of that finisher becomes more about quality and timing than sheer quantity through spam. It is good with combo fields, but use with combo fields is incredibly sensitive to cost.

Heartseeker, when used appropriately, gains most of its value from setting up other abilities. Gameplay is better when set-up abilities are cheap; the Thief will not play better if he lands in melee range with 8 initiative instead of 9, or if he’s drained of initative after stealthing through a smoke field. Those are core functions and want to be as cheap as possible.

If Heartseeker is too strong as a finisher, the right answer is to rip some damage off the top to address that particular use case, not to monstrously nerf the skill as a gap closer and combo field trigger.

Dee Jay.2460:

And let’s face it, and indirect damage nerf wouldn’t be uncalled for on Thieves.

Yes, actually, it would. The premium on melee damage is a pretty fine balance and we’re not far off at the moment. The big balance issue at the moment isn’t burst damage, but sustain tanking – not just the usual guardian and elementalist culprits, but thief and mesmer condition tanks, giant sacks of necro health; burst characters like thieves are absolutely necessary if you want to score a kill in a 2v1 situation.

It might be perceived as a problem in the bean bracket, people who haven’t even played the game an hour being blown up before they even know what their abilities do, but burst is absolutely not the problem amongst reasonably competent players.

Dee Jay.2460:

As for Mug I liked the idea of adding Bleeds because it makes the trait more attractive for Condition builds.

If Mug were a weapon skill or a minor trait I would agree with you 100%.

But it is not a weapon skill, it is a major trait, which means it is an option. Options work better when they have clear purposes; it makes the decision space cleaner and makes each decision matter more. So I think that Mug being totally unattractive to condition builds is a good thing. It is clearly a good trait for a certain style of power build (and particularly a crit build), and not good for a condition build. That is a strong design. That is the point.

Now, your point that there are not attractive adept major traits available in Deadly Arts to conditions builds is well taken. I agree with that 100%. But that is a case for re-working an unused minor trait into a trait that is attractive to condition builds, not muddying up Mug.

Ensign.2189:

Dee Jay.2460:

The smaller the niche an ability fills, the cheaper it should be.

This is the primary source of our disagreement. Balance isn’t nerfing general purpose skills until they’re so weak that they’re niche, and buffing niche skills until they’re so powerful they become general purpose. Balancing skills means ensuring that there are interesting trade-offs in which skills you use in different situations. It’s totally possible to use one skill 100x more often than another and still have them be balanced.

I don’t think we actually disagree here. I just think you misinterpreted my meaning.

When you have an ability that fills a very narrow niche then this ability needs to be cheap to use.

Say you have an ability in game called X….and it’s only real purpose is to counter ability A from another class. It serves a very narrow niche and is highly situational.

In the rare case that you do want to use this ability, it’s use should not be further limited by a high cost. After all you already sacrificed something to take this specific ability and you remembered to use it.

If a niche ability is too expensive players just start ignoring it completely or substitute it with another.

Again, the fact that I may have used Dancing Dagger less than a dozen times in the past few weeks clearly indicates that it serves too little of a niche and is not an effective choice.

In a game like Guild Wars 2 where you only have 10 skills to manage at a time you simply cannot afford to have abilities you only use once or twice a day. That’s my reasoning anyway.

I just realized you probably didn’t misinterpret my meaning.

Ensign.2189:

If Mug were a weapon skill or a minor trait I would agree with you 100%.

But it is not a weapon skill, it is a major trait, which means it is an option. Options work better when they have clear purposes; it makes the decision space cleaner and makes each decision matter more. So I think that Mug being totally unattractive to condition builds is a good thing. It is clearly a good trait for a certain style of power build (and particularly a crit build), and not good for a condition build. That is a strong design. That is the point.

Now, your point that there are not attractive adept major traits available in Deadly Arts to conditions builds is well taken. I agree with that 100%. But that is a case for re-working an unused minor trait into a trait that is attractive to condition builds, not muddying up Mug.

Valid point but again I disagree.

If you think that ideally, every weapon skill should offer something to every play-style then why exclude Majror traits from this?

Shouldn’t Major traits ideally offer something for every play-style as well? Otherwise your choice is just very limited.

I don’t see how your play-style eliminating 50% of your viable trait choices makes for a more interesting or engaging game.

Not really. Major traits can be a bad choice that’s just the deal.
I’d be fine with giving mug condt damage, not to make it useful for all builds, but because it allows you to lower the spike from a critical via lower base damage while keeping a reasonable amount of damage for it’s purpose but a second of burning fits that better than bleeding. You could cut the current damage in half, add a second of burning and it would probably scale fine for everyone.

You could also make Mug never crit and edge the ratio up a bit. There are a lot of knobs you can turn if you’re just afraid of Mug crits.

^ Don’t see an issue with that.

Mug should just do 35% max health damage, percent based to any mob or player!

Thieves will be wanted in instances!

Why the Mug’s nerf?
Give it only at the GC builds, simply move it upper in the trait tree…