Guild Wars 2

Currently thief is like a bad joke for PvE. Yes, we do decent DPS if specced for it, and we can (if traited) do a few extra dodges. But we have zero survivability beside dodging, stealth is useless after last patch, our main heal (crit heals) is nerfed to uselessness.

I heard some dev saying that each class should have several good builds to choose from. Well, lets start by giving thief a single good build for PvE, because right now thief is 100% redundant for PvE (as in, no role to fullfill).

Its also very hard to motivate why any group, no matter the content, would pick a thief before another class. Maybe if they know they will die a lot, and need stealth-ressses. But then, everyone can do that with spy-kits.

Basically, thief feels like a warrior, but:
- less weapons and skills
- worse healing
- lower health
- lower armor
- less support
- no tanking ability

And warriors complain? :-)

I don’t necessarily disagree but you have to put things in context. Overall we can do fine in PvE but DPS minded players will feel squishy next to a warrior. The things we are good at are rezing and keeping a party from wipes. This is not useless. Some builds like S/D might not tank well but they do good in Survivability much like S/P pistol whip and D/P black powder/blind spam.

As far as healing goes 30 in shadow arts is still there and if you really are worried about getting heals foods like peach pies will give you heals continuously and have not been nerfed.

But I do agree compared to warrior it does seem a great deal imbalanced.

What we do have over warrior is
-better condition removal
-more escape tools
-more evades
-better stun breakers
-We actually have better healing overall if speced for it.

BTW spy kits got nerfed they have a 60 second cd so….

Edit:

Forgot 2 things. We have the best blast finisher in the game, and near permanent weakness and poison through dagger and Lotus Poison, or Shortbow all by it self no traits.

What about Black Powder perma-blind spam? Or Headshot to wipe away defiant from bosses? (Too bad teams cannot l2p to co-ordinate…) What about Boon-stealing, stealthing, weakness and poison spam?

Kain Francois.4328:

What about Black Powder perma-blind spam? Or Headshot to wipe away defiant from bosses? (Too bad teams cannot l2p to co-ordinate…) What about Boon-stealing, stealthing, weakness and poison spam?

I find I can sustain Perma-Blind and regular daze better with S/D and Cloaked in Shadow. Throw in Shadow Protector and Shadow’s Embrace and you’ve got sustainable Blind, Daze, Regen, Might, Condition Removal and boon strip. Take Blinding Powder and Shadow Refuge and you get team Regen and stealth. Smoke wall, Dagger Storm and Shortbow for the alt and you’ve got even more blinds, poison fields, Blast Finishers, Whirl Finishers and reflection.

Perma-blind isnt very useful, since all bosses are almost immune to it. I do agree about AoE, shortbow AoE is very good, but that alone does not make a class.

A good way to look at balance is: when is a thief really needed in PvE? While we do have some small support-alike abilities, its nowhere near what other classes has. And the 5-10% extra DPS we (might) do is nowhere near to compensate, especially since we have very few abilities that helps other do DPS. Besides, DPS in GW2 is a convenience only, there are no DPS-checks in the game as far as I know.

Also, our special F1 ability is not very good for PvE unless the mob is easy. When fighting bosses, I do my best to stay out of melee range, since pretty much every attack a boss at 30+ fractal does will instakill you if DPS specced.

All put together, thief is currently by far the worst class for PvE, without any clear role or purpose.

You’re just going to downplay any build someone posts so I’m going to skip listing all the things Thieves excel at. Instead, I’d like to ask a question. Can you prove that all the things you say are true? I ask because I feel like many of these complaint posts revolve around wild conjecture and “blanket” statements. I hope you’re making informed comments but given the nature of your complaint I can’t really take it seriously. Show me why you’re right.

Thiefs are good for PvE. Examples are above this post.

The ONLY thing I can think about is the damage but no profession comes close to a GS warriors damage in PvE (correct me if I am wrong).

Btw I have NEVER seen a warrior complaining about being UP in PvE. Never. Complaining about being OP with a GS and mediocre with all the other weapons yes, but never UP.

Big problem I have with my thief is the combination of initiative and lack of cooldowns. Basically you are encouraged to spam a really powerful ability (BS, HS, Unload, etc), and ignore others due to lack of cd’s. And if you choose not to spam those powerful abilities, your are giving up far too much damage output when compared to a class that uses CD’s. I know this is part of what gives the thief it’s identity, but it’s also part of why we are weaker than other classes in PVE.

Quells, the biggest problem I have with a thief is the difficulty with aggro.
Disclaimer: I don’t farm fractals or run dungeons with any frequency. I enjoy just playing for the sake of playing. I’m a casual-core gamer.

I’ve noticed you have to get a tremendous distance away from most enemies to truly break aggro – that is, be able to heal automatically, change skills and gear, and interact with vistas. This is tremendously problematic with vertical distances.

Example: I’m currently standing on a krait tower in the Mire Sea. I can’t get the vista, yet there are no enemies attacking me. Presumably that is because a single krait midway down the tower is still “in combat” with me. I will have to go back down, killing every krait on the way, before I can find the one that is preventing me from getting this vista.

The stealth aggro nerf didn’t fix this. Thieves have had problems with stealth breaking aggro and causing enemies to heal, yes, but does making the enemy stop right on top of us really benefit us in this respect?

If I were to try fixing the aggro problems, I would be looking at two things:
1) (For thieves, specifically) Is there a way to make enemies react more slowly to a thief’s exit from stealth?
2) (In general) Is there a way to remove a player’s “in combat” status after that player has not been involved in combat after a certain duration?

The first would (in my opinion) remove a lot of the hurt from exiting stealth and allow thieves to have more flexibility in when they exit stealth.
The second would clear up problems like my krait tower situation.

And now I’m off to find that blasted krait.
Edit: Turns out it was a barrel of supplies. Yeah, that’s right. Inanimate, passive objects have aggro tables.

thieves are fine in pve. see them doing well all the time.

Columba.9730:

thieves are fine in pve. see them doing well all the time.

waiting for the next row of nerfs in the next patch, can’t wait

I don’t think that thieves are bad in PvE but an amount of PvE content is not thief friendly. As soon as you see an army of 20 dredge coming down a tunnel towards you in a fractal the weaknesses of dodge/evade/stealth become apparent, skills like venoms become marginalized, and weapon choices are gone. PvE doesn’t need to be designed with such big groups of enemies however.

There’s content that’s not friendly for other classes. All classes struggle with some stuff I pve. At least thieve can stealth to run by the difficult mobs.

Honestly big PvE groups can be fun – thieves as a class archetype are made for picking the high profile targets, incapacitating or killing them, and then zipping out. Stealth is an important mechanic of this, just as venoms are, and evasion can be useful for getting in and out of combat quickly.

The problem there comes when you’re faced with huge groups of similarly powerful enemies, so there’s no clear chain of difficulty in facing them. A pile of 20 dredge is going to hurt a thief’s flavor if they’re all mobs of moletariat, as opposed to a particular leading commissar that is boosting his allies in combat, but susceptible to a highly focused chain of attacks in solo combat.

I want to reiterate: that’s just a flavor problem, and detracts from the style of the thief, and not necessarily the playability.

cheezwhiz.9517:

Quells, the biggest problem I have with a thief is the difficulty with aggro.
Disclaimer: I don’t farm fractals or run dungeons with any frequency. I enjoy just playing for the sake of playing. I’m a casual-core gamer.

I’ve noticed you have to get a tremendous distance away from most enemies to truly break aggro – that is, be able to heal automatically, change skills and gear, and interact with vistas. This is tremendously problematic with vertical distances.

Example: I’m currently standing on a krait tower in the Mire Sea. I can’t get the vista, yet there are no enemies attacking me. Presumably that is because a single krait midway down the tower is still “in combat” with me. I will have to go back down, killing every krait on the way, before I can find the one that is preventing me from getting this vista.

The stealth aggro nerf didn’t fix this. Thieves have had problems with stealth breaking aggro and causing enemies to heal, yes, but does making the enemy stop right on top of us really benefit us in this respect?

If I were to try fixing the aggro problems, I would be looking at two things:
1) (For thieves, specifically) Is there a way to make enemies react more slowly to a thief’s exit from stealth?
2) (In general) Is there a way to remove a player’s “in combat” status after that player has not been involved in combat after a certain duration?

The first would (in my opinion) remove a lot of the hurt from exiting stealth and allow thieves to have more flexibility in when they exit stealth.
The second would clear up problems like my krait tower situation.

And now I’m off to find that blasted krait.
Edit: Turns out it was a barrel of supplies. Yeah, that’s right. Inanimate, passive objects have aggro tables.

The supply barrel part of that made me laugh, but I get your point about aggro. I get annoyed with the aggro drop (or lack thereof) all the time, especially with the new “no using waypoints in dungeons when a party member is in combat” rule.

Generally, I think Thieves still do fine in PvE. It’s one of the most well-equipped classes for mapping, kiting, and all-around adventuring.

Sinner.7139:

Currently thief is like a bad joke for PvE. Yes, we do decent DPS if specced for it, and we can (if traited) do a few extra dodges. But we have zero survivability beside dodging, stealth is useless after last patch, our main heal (crit heals) is nerfed to uselessness.

I heard some dev saying that each class should have several good builds to choose from. Well, lets start by giving thief a single good build for PvE, because right now thief is 100% redundant for PvE (as in, no role to fullfill).

Its also very hard to motivate why any group, no matter the content, would pick a thief before another class. Maybe if they know they will die a lot, and need stealth-ressses. But then, everyone can do that with spy-kits.

Basically, thief feels like a warrior, but:
- less weapons and skills
- worse healing
- lower health
- lower armor
- less support
- no tanking ability

And warriors complain? :-)

I agree that I feel like Thieves are being pigeonholed into a D/D—SB spec. However, there are a few viable choices available at the moment, and if you don’t like the way your Thief plays in PvE, it’s very possible that you just haven’t found the weaponset that’s right for you. Playstyles seem to vary widely between weapons. Personally, I use D/P for single-target combat and SB for kiting or multiple targets.

If you’re having lots of problems in general PvE, a build with 30 points in Shadow Arts does wonders for PvE survival. You might also look into the Acrobatics or Trickery lines, which both have a lot of neat stuff that (in my opinion) gets very underused.

Sinner.7139:

Currently thief is like a bad joke for PvE. Yes, we do decent DPS if specced for it, and we can (if traited) do a few extra dodges. But we have zero survivability beside dodging, stealth is useless after last patch, our main heal (crit heals) is nerfed to uselessness.

I heard some dev saying that each class should have several good builds to choose from. Well, lets start by giving thief a single good build for PvE, because right now thief is 100% redundant for PvE (as in, no role to fullfill).

Its also very hard to motivate why any group, no matter the content, would pick a thief before another class. Maybe if they know they will die a lot, and need stealth-ressses. But then, everyone can do that with spy-kits.

Basically, thief feels like a warrior, but:
- less weapons and skills
- worse healing
- lower health
- lower armor
- less support
- no tanking ability

And warriors complain? :-)

Yes, Warriors have alot of weapons and skills, it’s not like they are all forced to use only one set of weapons and skills because how useless every other skills are right?

Lower health lower armor, not like warriors have that much evade skills right? not like those extra health armor actually help right?

less support, not like support warriors can do any damage right? not like rezing people and keeping people from wipe aren’t support right?

Thieves should be definitely tanking right?

your thread is a bad joke

I haven’t really been messing around much in fractals, but for dungeons like CoF and AC and general PvE I’m more or less alright — I can’t just stand there and spam one skill like some classes can and be effective, that’s true. There were times where the squishiness of thieves made me alt a guardian and a warrior who were built to tank. But, switching my build from high burst damage dps to condition made things a LOTTTTT more fun playing a thief.

I actually enjoy having mobs of 20 ppl barelling down right at me, more melee enemies means more hits I can get off with my DB and more the caltrops will be useful, triggering a healthy amount of heals from my SoM. Alternatively when I see a single target with massive health who can dish out equally massive AoE… things are a lot less fun.

If anything I don’t think the thieves were “broken” by the recent stealth nerfs, I think people are being encouraged to try different builds.

As per party utility, u got me. Besides the stealth rezzing and thrill of the crime/bountiful theft, I don’t even know what I can contribute to a party if there is a necro or a ranger in there. I can easily rack up 25 stacks of bleeds and poison the enemy to infinity, but so can necros and rangers… and in many instances they can do this faster and better than me too… =<

Silver – you should look at venoms if you want to play a support thief that’s built for condition damage. Here’s a link:
http://www.gw2build.com/builds/venom-healer-venom-heal-support-thief-condition-overkill-5304.html
Just make sure you’re close by your allies when you apply the venoms.

Columba.9730:

thieves are fine in pve. see them doing well all the time.

You’ve stated before that you hate PvE.

Thanks Cheezwhiz, that’s a really interesting build! I’ve never played with the poisons, tbh i dont know how to use them.

I’ll start a separate thread asking how that works lol

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

thieves are fine in pve. see them doing well all the time.

You’ve stated before that you hate PvE.

Irrelevant and not all pve. I am forced to do pve nevertheless.

Blacksarevok.8104:

Big problem I have with my thief is the combination of initiative and lack of cooldowns. Basically you are encouraged to spam a really powerful ability (BS, HS, Unload, etc), and ignore others due to lack of cd’s. And if you choose not to spam those powerful abilities, your are giving up far too much damage output when compared to a class that uses CD’s. I know this is part of what gives the thief it’s identity, but it’s also part of why we are weaker than other classes in PVE.

You are mistaken. Only DPS thieves do that and never the less in most runs outside CoF its foolish to spam and leave yourself with no initiative to survive. If you get caught up in the DPS race then frankly for PvE roll a warrior as its the smarter bet. If you want to be useful in other ways then thief is not a bad option. Not every dungeon get a huge advantage from pure DPS builds.

cheezwhiz.9517:

Silver – you should look at venoms if you want to play a support thief that’s built for condition damage. Here’s a link:
http://www.gw2build.com/builds/venom-healer-venom-heal-support-thief-condition-overkill-5304.html
Just make sure you’re close by your allies when you apply the venoms.

That’s an interesting build. What set of armor/runes and trinkets do you go with that?

Columba.9730:

magicthighs.5372:

Columba.9730:

thieves are fine in pve. see them doing well all the time.

You’ve stated before that you hate PvE.

Irrelevant and not all pve. I am forced to do pve nevertheless.

Yes, like soloing fractals to farm yellow mobs there, apparently. Where exactly do you run into those thieves you say do so well in PvE? It doesn’t seem like you do group PvE at all, you see.

Thief definately needs alot of work for PvE. As they are right now it’s almost as if the class was designed solely for PvP. Stealth in PvE is now 100% useless, and that was about the only thing only a thief can do that someone else can’t do (better).

Mobs being basically immune to thieves is also very lame indeed.

I should clarify that by PvE I mean mostly group play in hard content, like deep in Fractals. Grinding events in for example Orr is pretty good for thief due to good AoE.

The main problem is that thief are supposed to be much more moveable, but in fact we are not. Many other classes has 25% run buffs, and many (all?) classes has some sort of endurance buff. Thief is a little extra moveable if traited for it, but its not a big margin.

A warrior for example, that tries to evade damage the way a thief has to do, will have much more survivability than its possible to have for a thief. And they do more DPS as well, more health, more armor, more everything.

And if a thief specs for survivability, what is that thiefs purpose then? Sure, he might survive better, but he will bring even less to the group than a DPS thief.

The (for PvE) pretty useless F1 ability, and the way stealth is (not) working in PvE, certainly don’t help.

The (for PvE) pretty useless F1 ability, and the way stealth is (not) working in PvE, certainly don’t help.

I don’t think the F1 ability is “useless,” esp if you spec for it. For example, thrill of the crime and bountiful theft to buff allies. Further, I have hidden thief specced so I go into stealth when I steal, which does the following:

1. Obviously get into melee range which is great for me to get all 3 DB hits off and drop some caltrops.
2. Going into stealth triggers my “remove 1 condition every 3 seconds” (which also removes 1 condition the second I go into stealth). Given that the thief isn’t exactly loaded with condition removal, this ability is vital to my build.
3. Stealing gives me 3 initiative back for the 1st minor trait in trickery, thus (if you have the 3rd minor trait in trickery as well) this allows me to burn 20 initiative immediately, steal and go into stealth, accrue the stealth buffs and get 3 more initiative back to do something else.

It’s a subtle ability, if you get into the habit of cycling steal every time its off of cool down you will start to see the benefits really add up

Sinner.7139:

Currently thief is like a bad joke for PvE. Yes, we do decent DPS if specced for it, and we can (if traited) do a few extra dodges. But we have zero survivability beside dodging, stealth is useless after last patch, our main heal (crit heals) is nerfed to uselessness.

I heard some dev saying that each class should have several good builds to choose from. Well, lets start by giving thief a single good build for PvE, because right now thief is 100% redundant for PvE (as in, no role to fullfill).

Its also very hard to motivate why any group, no matter the content, would pick a thief before another class. Maybe if they know they will die a lot, and need stealth-ressses. But then, everyone can do that with spy-kits.

Basically, thief feels like a warrior, but:
- less weapons and skills
- worse healing
- lower health
- lower armor
- less support
- no tanking ability

And warriors complain? :-)

regarding thief’s healing
hide in shadows -5500 heal / 700 regeneration / cures 3 conditions , stealth 3 seconds
signet of malice – 120 hp /target, in pve considering you use shortbow with 1/4 seconds trick shot x3 targets = 120*4*3=1440/sec.
Daggeer storm over 2000 hp/sec betwen 5+targets
320 /sec stealted +regen
shadow refuge. 3-4 second 1600 heal + dark field
dark field – combined with whirl : 170/ hit = 540 /death blossom, a lot from dagger storm
dark field -combined with projectiles 200+/hit
Assasin reward -70/initiative
if you use healing power those heals increase, ofc you will lose some burst
Edit *
cluster bombs * spammable * at least 6-7 in row combined with ranger’s healing spring you will heal all party members for 1350 hp/ blast

Silver.4798:

I don’t think the F1 ability is “useless,” esp if you spec for it.

Well, IMO, that’s exactly one of the main problems with the thief class, that everything is pretty useless unless you spec for it.

Sure, Steal may be useful, WHEN you spec for it. But example, a Crit/Shadow/Acro build literally has ONE single trait available to improve steal (and only if you spec 20+ in shadow).

When I play the thief class I always get the feeling that I’m being punished for what I COULD do, rather than for what I can actually do.

For example, because thieves can add an extra stack of venom, and share venoms, the devs balanced venoms taking into account these circumstances… That leave us with venoms that last… 3 seconds… Thanks devs, but what happens to thieves that choose not take those traits? Essentially 4 almost-useless skills, that’s what happens.

The same happens with steal, if you take every available trait to boost it, sure, it can be arguably good, but if you choose to build in other ways, the base Steal ability is pretty lackluster.

Kyrion.2749:

Silver.4798:

I don’t think the F1 ability is “useless,” esp if you spec for it.

Well, IMO, that’s exactly one of the main problems with the thief class, that everything is pretty useless unless you spec for it.

Sure, Steal may be useful, WHEN you spec for it. But example, a Crit/Shadow/Acro build literally has ONE single trait available to improve steal (and only if you spec 20+ in shadow).

When I play the thief class I always get the feeling that I’m being punished for what I COULD do, rather than for what I can actually do.

For example, because thieves can add an extra stack of venom, and share venoms, the devs balanced venoms taking into account these circumstances… That leave us with venoms that last… 3 seconds… Thanks devs, but what happens to thieves that choose not take those traits? Essentially 4 almost-useless skills, that’s what happens.

The same happens with steal, if you take every available trait to boost it, sure, it can be arguably good, but if you choose to build in other ways, the base Steal ability is pretty lackluster.

still better then “speced for it but still useless” like in some other profs lololololol. not to mention that f1 is useful even without the steal effect

and how is “if you want it to be usefull you need to spec for it” a problem? not like any tank skills for warrior or guardian are any useful without being speced to it or DPS skills are any useful without being speced to it. i guess you are that kind of guy who want to tank like boss with a dps build? get out

The Thief is fine in PvE, as long as you understand that you need to use a combination of movement and stealth, not just stealth alone. Your weapons sets as a Thief are full of dodge moves, you don’t need traits to get them. In dungeons the Thief is by far the best at reviving, thanks to AoE stealth and very fast movement, and can also give some boons to allies with steal, plus share venoms, through traits. But when it comes to full support, the Thief has always been lacking.

thief is just fine… i have 4 lvls 80 and i dont enjoy any of them as much as i enjoy my thief. Good dps ,good survability , Shadow refugee is just great as is smoke screen. Shortbow is great for reaching a downed player fast and blinding powder is a great aoe blind. im running a full zerker thief and i dont have any surbability issues even in lvl 30+ fractals

TheGuy.3568:

I don’t necessarily disagree but you have to put things in context. Overall we can do fine in PvE but DPS minded players will feel squishy next to a warrior. The things we are good at are rezing and keeping a party from wipes. This is not useless. Some builds like S/D might not tank well but they do good in Survivability much like S/P pistol whip and D/P black powder/blind spam.

As far as healing goes 30 in shadow arts is still there and if you really are worried about getting heals foods like peach pies will give you heals continuously and have not been nerfed.

But I do agree compared to warrior it does seem a great deal imbalanced.

What we do have over warrior is
-better condition removal
-more escape tools
-more evades
-better stun breakers
-We actually have better healing overall if speced for it.

BTW spy kits got nerfed they have a 60 second cd so….

Edit:

Forgot 2 things. We have the best blast finisher in the game, and near permanent weakness and poison through dagger and Lotus Poison, or Shortbow all by it self no traits.

QFE.

I like this kind of thinking.

My opinion: Anet should get a team together and have them all play thieves. This way they can experience the class first hand. They should also go incognito and join group exp runs so they can hear other players question your class choice, try to get you kicked, et merda for simply being a thief. Making game changes based on forum feedback and stat logs alone, without playing the game in its current state today is simply flawed development.

Kasama.8941:

The Thief is fine in PvE, as long as you understand that you need to use a combination of movement and stealth, not just stealth alone. Your weapons sets as a Thief are full of dodge moves, you don’t need traits to get them. In dungeons the Thief is by far the best at reviving, thanks to AoE stealth and very fast movement, and can also give some boons to allies with steal, plus share venoms, through traits. But when it comes to full support, the Thief has always been lacking.

The dodge portion of the weapon moves is usually quite a lot shorter than the full length of the move and has a delay upon activation (it doesn’t interrupt current actions) making them more of a lucky move unless you are spamming it like in a DB build. Thieves need a better access to endurance regen before I start trusting movement as a legitimate form of defence. My engineer can be easily traied to have perma swiftness and perma vigor in combat and a passive 50% endurance regen in the crit damage line. My ele can have perma vigor as well, even with the internal cooldown added in this round of rebalancing. The thief can trait to give himself 1 more upfront dodge, but unless I trait vigor on heal and use withdraw, blowing my heal constantly, I actually have worse dodging/defense through movement than the other 2 I mentioned.

Ekemeister.8905:

My opinion: Anet should get a team together and have them all play thieves. This way they can experience the class first hand. They should also go incognito and join group exp runs so they can hear other players question your class choice, try to get you kicked, et merda for simply being a thief. Making game changes based on forum feedback and stat logs alone, without playing the game in its current state today is simply flawed development.

don’t even bother with groups that don’t want thieves (cause they are squishy), they usualy play with 170-200 % magic find and espect somebody to tank and Dps for them.
I’ve completed many fractals lvl 20 + with 3 thieves in group with minimal deads (0 , 1-4 downed times)
I’ve pugged a lot with my warrior and guardian, and this is the reason you should play dungeons with ppls you know.

Maugetarr.6823:

The dodge portion of the weapon moves is usually quite a lot shorter than the full length of the move and has a delay upon activation (it doesn’t interrupt current actions) making them more of a lucky move unless you are spamming it like in a DB build. Thieves need a better access to endurance regen before I start trusting movement as a legitimate form of defence. My engineer can be easily traied to have perma swiftness and perma vigor in combat and a passive 50% endurance regen in the crit damage line. My ele can have perma vigor as well, even with the internal cooldown added in this round of rebalancing. The thief can trait to give himself 1 more upfront dodge, but unless I trait vigor on heal and use withdraw, blowing my heal constantly, I actually have worse dodging/defense through movement than the other 2 I mentioned.

Well then it’s a good thing that the Thief allows you to use one evade multiple times, so it’s more effective. I wouldn’t say you have to be lucky for the skills to work, though. I’ve only ever had problems using Flanking Strike, when it comes to the back stab. Disabling Shot, Infiltrator’s Arrow, Infiltrator’s Strike/Shadow Return, Heartseeker, Death Blossom, Cloak and Dagger, Shadow Strike, and Black Powder, are all very reliable for avoiding damage.

The Engineer and Elementalist also need to use traits to get permanent swiftness and vigor, so I’m not sure how they are better then the Thief? The Thief can get 10 seconds of vigor on healing, 15 seconds of vigor on steal, 15% endurance reduction per dodge, and use Signet of Agility to refill endurance 100%. And that’s on top of various stealth and shadowstep skills, which neither the Engineer or Elemenalist has.

TheGuy.3568:

I don’t necessarily disagree but you have to put things in context. Overall we can do fine in PvE but DPS minded players will feel squishy next to a warrior. The things we are good at are rezing and keeping a party from wipes. This is not useless. Some builds like S/D might not tank well but they do good in Survivability much like S/P pistol whip and D/P black powder/blind spam.

As far as healing goes 30 in shadow arts is still there and if you really are worried about getting heals foods like peach pies will give you heals continuously and have not been nerfed.

But I do agree compared to warrior it does seem a great deal imbalanced.

What we do have over warrior is
-better condition removal
-more escape tools
-more evades
-better stun breakers
-We actually have better healing overall if speced for it.

BTW spy kits got nerfed they have a 60 second cd so….

Edit:

Forgot 2 things. We have the best blast finisher in the game, and near permanent weakness and poison through dagger and Lotus Poison, or Shortbow all by it self no traits.

So what you are saying is.. the thief class should be kept around to keep everyone else from wiping and should be happy that foods and buffs that any other class can get should be enough to give some survivability… maybe? Now lets take a look at your what we have over warriors bit:
1) Better condition removal? Um sure if we are spec’d for it which means
a) We wont have the heal spec or
b) we wont have the dmg output that makes survivability an option…
2) More Escape: Not since now stealth does not reset aggro. So we can dodge and we can run away… sure there is the roll for initiative trait… but that is a dodge so yea.
3) Better healing if spec’d: Umm ok sure if we take an entire line of shadow arts we have a comprable heal to a warrior who starts with higher toughness, higher vitality, and a higher heal unspec’d… and they dont have to take an entire 30 points to make it a good heal. Oh and since our heals from SA are based on stealth and since you dont lose aggro when healed… either we stay stealthed and do no attacks so we can heal a little… or we go stealth, then attack for some decent but not awsome DPS since BD was nerfed and the thief has undergone 6 other nerfs.

See, I am tired of seeing Guardians, Mesmers, Rangers, Elementalists, Engineers, Warriors all SOLOing a Champion whatever it is in Orr or anyplace else for that matter while taking little effort to do so. All the while, the thief sits there and waits for the mob to die or has died himself. And then to top it all off, the other classes spit out “THIEVES NEED TO BE NERFED”

shadow refuge → rez. Honestly, it’s so good that I would bring a thief along just to auto attack and do that.

Sinner.7139:

Currently thief is like a bad joke for PvE. Yes, we do decent DPS if specced for it, and we can (if traited) do a few extra dodges. But we have zero survivability…

Funny, my thief in PvE has no survival issues while still outputting very good damage. In addition to “a few extra dodges”, you’ve got plenty of ways to blind and plenty of crowd control skills. If you’re having trouble staying alive in PvE, I would humbly suggest that it’s user error, not a flaw design in the class.

Xynn.2748:

shadow refuge -> rez. Honestly, it’s so good that I would bring a thief along just to auto attack and do that.

Yea, that was I said in my starter post: the main reason to bring a thief is to get good resses. In fact, any group looking for a thief is probably a group you should stay away from, since they obviously plan to die a lot :-)

But that’s hardly the designed purpose or role of a thief, is it?

darkace.8925:

Sinner.7139:

Currently thief is like a bad joke for PvE. Yes, we do decent DPS if specced for it, and we can (if traited) do a few extra dodges. But we have zero survivability…

Funny, my thief in PvE has no survival issues while still outputting very good damage. In addition to “a few extra dodges”, you’ve got plenty of ways to blind and plenty of crowd control skills. If you’re having trouble staying alive in PvE, I would humbly suggest that it’s user error, not a flaw design in the class.

I don’t have problem staying alive either, because the content in GW2 is pretty easy, even on fractals 30+. But that does not mean thief is balanced, it just means I know how to stay alive.

And bosses are almost immune to crown control and blind, which makes those pretty useless when they are needed most (who bothers with CC on thrash mobs). Besides, I don’t consider 1 sec stun or 3 sec snare to be real CC.

Sinner.7139:

And bosses are almost immune to crown control and blind, which makes those pretty useless when they are needed most (who bothers with CC on thrash mobs).

Fair enough. Against bosses, the really hard hitting ones, you’re either going to have to engage from range (where it’s safer) or take advantage of those “few extra dodges”.

Kasama.8941:

Maugetarr.6823:

The dodge portion of the weapon moves is usually quite a lot shorter than the full length of the move and has a delay upon activation (it doesn’t interrupt current actions) making them more of a lucky move unless you are spamming it like in a DB build. Thieves need a better access to endurance regen before I start trusting movement as a legitimate form of defence. My engineer can be easily traied to have perma swiftness and perma vigor in combat and a passive 50% endurance regen in the crit damage line. My ele can have perma vigor as well, even with the internal cooldown added in this round of rebalancing. The thief can trait to give himself 1 more upfront dodge, but unless I trait vigor on heal and use withdraw, blowing my heal constantly, I actually have worse dodging/defense through movement than the other 2 I mentioned.

Well then it’s a good thing that the Thief allows you to use one evade multiple times, so it’s more effective. I wouldn’t say you have to be lucky for the skills to work, though. I’ve only ever had problems using Flanking Strike, when it comes to the back stab. Disabling Shot, Infiltrator’s Arrow, Infiltrator’s Strike/Shadow Return, Heartseeker, Death Blossom, Cloak and Dagger, Shadow Strike, and Black Powder, are all very reliable for avoiding damage.

The Engineer and Elementalist also need to use traits to get permanent swiftness and vigor, so I’m not sure how they are better then the Thief? The Thief can get 10 seconds of vigor on healing, 15 seconds of vigor on steal, 15% endurance reduction per dodge, and use Signet of Agility to refill endurance 100%. And that’s on top of various stealth and shadowstep skills, which neither the Engineer or Elemenalist has.

Oddly enough flanking strike is the most dependable weapon dodge for me.
Disabling Shot→often needs a short windup making it unreliable for dodginging
Infiltrators Arrow→ Alright for running, not for staying power, expensive
IS→does nothing to mitigate damage
Shadow return→Alright against melee for half a second, not so much against range, unreliable stunbreak vs. knockback/knockdown/blowout
Heartseeker→range dependent on conditions, no dodge attatched (don’t understand how this is adding to my survivability)
DB→Short dodge, high initiative cost, forced movement, windup + after animation
BPS→Decent defense against melee, limited use against ranged, expensive, traps you within a small AoE field
Pistol whip→Long windup, medium dodge, roots you
CnD→ I thought we were talking about survivability out of stealth

A thief can then have access to vigor 66ish% of the time while the other 2 classes can have it up 100% of the time, yes while traited, but traited into their power lines, sacrificing little to gain this. Additionally they can have fairly reliable access to protection multiple blocks and knockbacks, blinds from a distance, and a potion that refills endurance same as the signet that does + giving a powerful tool for getting players in downstate up. The point was that those classes and more can have equal survivability from movement while attaining better levels of control. Their access to vigor when traited is also passive while the thief’s is active.

Well , while there are some “truth” words you said about thief being not so good in dungeons, mostly I must disagree.

I have fully condition thief (1600 cond damage and 1600 power), mostly committed to dungeons, since wvwvw and spvp are just something I do with guild in spare time. Dungeons goes pretty well (doing Arah and fractals 38+ daily)plus other dungeons…

I agree that playing melee (not just with thief but any other class) is punishable in this game. They say "but you have faster movement, 3 times dodge (if traited) " and so on,but noone can see who is bosses next target if 5 people are nuking him,with all effects on the screen wanting to explode through my monitor. He just turn and one shot you – noone can see that coming in time to do dodge- the more you’re down,the more other players will think you don’t know how to play (and that’s the mAin reason why people judge others). So you are FORCED to play ranged. I don’t like ranged so much, but if I want to see dungeon done- I need to adapt. That is something I agree with above said.

Other thing is that, thieves really can shine with great support, and crazy dps- when pack of mobs attack, put caltrops,use dagger storm and then finish them with shortbow aoe or death blossom – they die so quickly. Shadow refuge is something everyone appreciate in party, especially since ash legion kit nerf. Steal – people say, every other profession has cool F1 power, and that we don’t – not true. Steal is nice,especially since when traited- stealing gives you and your teammates boons – whole party does more dps because of you.

Since lot of people don’t see that- most of them thinks all boons are coming from their precious guardian, that is why thieves are being overlooked. But, there are others who perhaps played this class, or know the game well so that they wont judge you by the choice of your profession – but just your skill.

You’re mixing two things.

First is a game design flaw. The game is still too focused in “tank and spank”. Warriors and Guardians excel at Tank and Spank, that’s their job as heavy classes, so they’re generally the best in PvE. Specifically, you want 4 warriors and 1 guardian for most situations.

Outside of that, however, other classes are still viable. Thief included. The problem is that too many people try to play PvP thief in PvE.

No. Wrong. PvP Thief is all about hit and run single target spiking. PvE needs vary from AoE/multi-target options (large amounts of low health targets) to single target sustained DPS (high health bosses). So your typical PvP build needs some work in order to excell at PvE.

For example, main hand sword is superior to dagger in PvE, for the most part. Specifically, Sword/Pistol for Pistol Whip – the mini hundred blades with a stun AND full evasion throughout. Pistol/Pistol is also a good option if you want to remain ranged.

Kyrion.2749:

Silver.4798:

I don’t think the F1 ability is “useless,” esp if you spec for it.

Well, IMO, that’s exactly one of the main problems with the thief class, that everything is pretty useless unless you spec for it.

Sure, Steal may be useful, WHEN you spec for it. But example, a Crit/Shadow/Acro build literally has ONE single trait available to improve steal (and only if you spec 20+ in shadow).

When I play the thief class I always get the feeling that I’m being punished for what I COULD do, rather than for what I can actually do.

For example, because thieves can add an extra stack of venom, and share venoms, the devs balanced venoms taking into account these circumstances… That leave us with venoms that last… 3 seconds… Thanks devs, but what happens to thieves that choose not take those traits? Essentially 4 almost-useless skills, that’s what happens.

The same happens with steal, if you take every available trait to boost it, sure, it can be arguably good, but if you choose to build in other ways, the base Steal ability is pretty lackluster.

I feel your pain. It seems like you can’t really have a jack-of-all-trades build for a Thief, you pretty much have to spec your build to take advantage of something specific.

I changed my build so that I no longer used Mug, and I was extremely disappointed at how much more useless Steal was without the damage. Mostly, I just use it for a gap closer now, and it’s a bonus if I happen to steal something useful. I’m still tinkering with my build, but I feel like without a lot of points in Trickery or Deadly Arts, it’s pretty much just a gap closer with benefits.

Hearkening back to the complaints from betas that were never listened to, it would be nice if steal was less random and more versatile. While you can predict what a certain mob type will give you with Steal (i.e., ghosts in AC give you the Skull Fear), on the whole it’s like playing Roulette with the main class mechanic. I’d like to see the commonly-offered suggestion of options for the f-keys: f1 steals a weapon or something similarly offensive, f2 steals a stun or other cc, f3 steals a healing or regen item. This change would give Thieves a little more control over what they’re doing, and would make the mechanic more helpful, entertaining, and unique.

I imagine OP is talking about end-game Thief. 80 Thief.
I am in a process of leveling one (lvl 35 currently) and to me he is miles ahead of my warrior in PVE in survivability.
I have him specced for conditional damage and usually try to bring three of four enemies together for my AOE bleeds. Veterans don’t last as long also, so …

Is my guess right and OP is talking about end-game Thief, which means I am in for a nasty surprise or is this just the case of different opinions in leveling a Thief.

Ok, first of all, I have seen NO ONE solo champions in level 70+ areas “with ease,” hell solo-ing lvl 40+ area champions with trash mobs and random AoE’s would take an absurd amount of skill, I don’t care if you’re a mesmer warrior engineer or any of the other classes that presumably have an easier time in PvE.

That being said, there has been a post in this forum in the past week about some thief being a boss and solo-ing a champion krait (i’m too lazy to find the link). To be fair he was specced specifically to deal with the krait and it was clear he fought this krait many times before so he hit his dodges perfectly, but my point is that it can be done.

Regarding being a jack of all trades, I argue that any character that is built to be a jack of all traits is good at nothing (by definition) and that is especially apparent in this game. It’s one thing to say, “my character does a ton of DPS but doesn’t die too easily” which is different from saying “my character does a ton of DPS AND doesn’t die!”

That’s the beauty of this game, there is a balance, we can’t have everything without some sacrifice.

Regarding the steal ability, it really is quite useless if you’re completely not specced for it besides a gap closer, I do agree. I don’t agree that it is useless in general. As I have highlighted previously in this post, there is a lot of synergy with steal going into stealth and activating all your stealth boons. It can be argued that steal can be one of the BEST profession skills if someone goes balls to the wall and specs for it:
1. Gap closer
2. Mug
3. Hidden thief (stealth)
4. Recover health OR recover initiative faster in stealth OR gain 2 initiave on a skill that stealths you
5. Buff allies with thrill of the crime, (might, fury, swiftness), Buff allies again with bountiful theft (vigor) while stealing up to 2 boons from opponent and giving those buffs to allies.

All of this from one skill that can be cycled every 45 sec (or whatever it is depending on how much you specced into trickery).

To get all of the above will take at least 10 in power 30 in shadow arts and 20 in trickery, there are plenty of viable builds off of those traits.