Guild Wars 2

This thread honestly impresses me. We are known to supposedly attack anyone who enters this forum with extreme hate and prejudice when they show an ounce of ignorance toward the thief class. Yet this shows that if someone is honestly coming here with an open mind and the willingness to learn, people can and will help them. He could just have easily been told to re-roll another class simply because they are easier and won’t get majorly hurt come Dec 10th but no, he’s being given precise advice by people who have been there done that or been there doing that. We could easily discourage him from this class but no, we tell him that he most likely will fail but that failing is ultimately part of the success train. See, we really aren’t a bad sub-community.

Qaelyn.7612:

Funny the difference between theory and reality.

Went into WvW with my guild today and was in a small raiding group (awesome.. just what I wanted to do!) And I realized.. I need my shortbow! The teleport alone is essential. So that sort of did away with the PD+DD or PD+DP decision, at least for this role.

I got into a couple of 1v1 fights which went.. poorly. LOL It really is going to take a while, eh? Of course in this role dying frequently is par for the course… but still, I just sort of panic when I realize I am actually fighting.

I think the thing you have to understand is that the fight is mostly on your terms. You open when you want. You disappear when you want. Try and keep that kind of power over your opponent. When your health gets low, get out and reposition, but know that the nature of stealth means that you can control the a situation more easily. Learn your limits and you won’t be afraid to engage.

Step 1: get 2 berserker daggers and a berserker shortbow. Get some standard sigils like force and air or whatever.
Step 2: go to the mists and practice hitting number 5 with the dagger on moving golems
Step 3: get some semi tanky gear like cavalier and valkyrie, giving you high crit dmg while maintaining some survivability, get superior runes of speed
Step 4: spec x/30/30/x/x with hidden killer, 2 ini back on stealth, condi removal in stealth, heal in stealth
Step 5: equip shadowstep, shadow refuge, blinding powder

And that’s about it. You’re now an unkillable roaming machine, atleast untill the december patch.

Shadowscamp: That’s the thing, I’m really not in control in most cases. I don’t have the skill yet to kill anything and often can’t really get away either. A more defensive spec lets me get away more easily but also means I often on the defensive, unable to kill others or really press any advantage. So the classic “is the best defense a good offense?” question.

ChapDev.7650:

You do not always need one equipped (Personally I only roam with one Pistol and Dagger to perma poison with Sigil of Doom)

Could you explain what you mean here please?

ChapDev.7650:

Buying an Invisible slot bag for your Inventory is useful for this as anything you place in there won’t show up to sell to Merchants or the Tradepost so is a good place to drop your Shortbow. (Though still appears for Mystic Forge so don’t forge it!)

Yeah I use those, thanks.

ChapDev.7650:

Don’t let this get you down! It doesn’t matter what anyone else says it’s the truth of the matter that a Thief is no longer the easiest class to play and learning to manage your skills and initiative will take some time, just keep trying heck if your server is doing any fight clubs go join in it is risk free experience in 1v1 scenario’s.

I’ve been using sPVP for this, but some builds don’t translate well there.

ChapDev.7650:

…just try to calm yourself and slow down a little you have stealth to give you breathing room/time so you don’t have to use all of your Initiative/Utilities immediately.

I’m not good under pressure in general so maybe I will view this as a way of improving that.

Lifeson: As the saying goes, “looks good on paper.”

Qaelyn.7612:

-Snip-

Hm.. Are you fully geared up? What’s your critdamage and power? You should be able to make them some people panic if you open right.

Lifeson.4352:

Step 1: get 2 berserker daggers and a berserker shortbow. Get some standard sigils like force and air or whatever.
Step 2: go to the mists and practice hitting number 5 with the dagger on moving golems
Step 3: get some semi tanky gear like cavalier and valkyrie, giving you high crit dmg while maintaining some survivability, get superior runes of speed
Step 4: spec x/30/30/x/x with hidden killer, 2 ini back on stealth, condi removal in stealth, heal in stealth
Step 5: equip shadowstep, shadow refuge, blinding powder

And that’s about it. You’re now an unkillable roaming machine, atleast untill the december patch.

That’s not a bad summary The bit about learning how to time Cloak and Dagger on a moving target is particularly important. When I started a thief, that was a huge difference-maker once I got it down. Timing it with Steal is the next step after that.

As for the December patch, doesn’t that build get buffed a bit? It’s how I run, and when I think through a typical attack pattern, the buff to base initiative should outweigh the nerf to opportunist.

D/D is one of the few viable thief builds that does not get squashed on 12/10.

Shadowscamp, I’ve changed builds a number of times. I was in WvW last night using a PD/DD build, either with dire or carrion gear. Just yellows and greens, I can’t afford to start dropping gold on exotics until I figure out a build. The one I was using is a condition build so low crit damage… it’s the Laela Blackbird build, which I thought might better suit me since I usually prefer defensive play, and it’s got good toughness and vitality.

More than that, I need practice.. a lot of practice.

Qaelyn.7612:

Shadowscamp, I’ve changed builds a number of times. I was in WvW last night using a PD/DD build, either with dire or carrion gear. Just yellows and greens, I can’t afford to start dropping gold on exotics until I figure out a build. The one I was using is a condition build so low crit damage… it’s the Laela Blackbird build, which I thought might better suit me since I usually prefer defensive play, and it’s got good toughness and vitality.

More than that, I need practice.. a lot of practice.

I figured as much.

I do recommend you fully gearing yourself up for P/D first. As others have said, it’s easiest to learn, and in my experience, an almost unkillable roaming build. Without proper gear, you’ll always feel weak in WvW, though I always gear up my characters immediately once I get to 80, so I may be biased.

Oghier.7419:

Lifeson.4352:

Step 1: get 2 berserker daggers and a berserker shortbow. Get some standard sigils like force and air or whatever.
Step 2: go to the mists and practice hitting number 5 with the dagger on moving golems
Step 3: get some semi tanky gear like cavalier and valkyrie, giving you high crit dmg while maintaining some survivability, get superior runes of speed
Step 4: spec x/30/30/x/x with hidden killer, 2 ini back on stealth, condi removal in stealth, heal in stealth
Step 5: equip shadowstep, shadow refuge, blinding powder

And that’s about it. You’re now an unkillable roaming machine, atleast untill the december patch.

That’s not a bad summary The bit about learning how to time Cloak and Dagger on a moving target is particularly important. When I started a thief, that was a huge difference-maker once I got it down. Timing it with Steal is the next step after that.

As for the December patch, doesn’t that build get buffed a bit? It’s how I run, and when I think through a typical attack pattern, the buff to base initiative should outweigh the nerf to opportunist.

D/D is one of the few viable thief builds that does not get squashed on 12/10.

D/D is probably seeing a small buff. Everyone can feel free to disagree with me but d/d is not a good 1v1 set against a skilled opponent. It shines when fighting 1vx against bad opponents. That’s why yishi uses it in his videos. Having a lot of clueless people to CnD off of is what d/d really needs to be effective. A good opponent will dodge cnd and you’ll need a better gap closer than heartseeker as well. D/P doesn’t suffer from either of those flaws but you won’t see it being as effective 1v3.

Yeah I think one of the biggest challenges for me is learning how to stealth using CnD effectively. It seems key for the backstab DD builds.

As for PD, it’s a condition build, so the question then becomes what to use the stealth on. I’ve been practicing with stealth on steal, doing that, then unloading #1 to get a stack of bleeds and using #3 for the torment and then getting out of melee range.

But I’m usually not sure what to do after that.

I do find myself sometimes swapping to DD for its #3. I know I’ve read a lot of people saying it’s “useless” but maybe they mean in a backstab build? It seems to apply a lot of condition damage.

Backstabbing in this build seems rather pointless as there’s not enough crit “oomph” for it to matter.

Shadow what do you recommend to complement PD?

Use d/d or shortbow to compliment p/d. If you use d/d you can still get cnd’s to help with stomps, you can use heartseeker to run away, and #3 deathblossom is good against clumped enemies. If you use shortbow you’ll have #5 to run away and increase your roaming speed. You can use the poison #4 while stealthed and not lose stealth. You can also detonate clusterbomb (#2) midair to get 3 bleed stacks on opponents. Both are good, it’s just personal preference.

When running p/d just get the routine down of auto attacking twice, cnd, sneak shot, 2 auto attacks, cnd, sneak shot, repeat repeat repeat. You can get 2 auto attacks in wvw and pve before revealed is gone. If you want to get more fancy after you master that rotation then stay close after cnd, use sneak attack point blank then #3 to apply torment and back off. Follow that with 2 autos and go for another cnd.

Thanks Hype. That does mean staying in melee range a lot just using the pistol though right? I find that tends to be.. painful.

Am I better off with the more conservative dire or more aggressive carrion? While I do like being defensive I found with dire I do little damage. Or maybe rabid to ramp up the crits somewhat? Though with little crit damage boost, not sure that makes sense either.

I’m ready to gear up for P/D (got 120 gold saved already) but I want to do it once, not five times.

I still think carrion is the best. You only want to be in melee range when you’re trying to cnd, otherwise you’re staying at mid range and dodging the big attacks coming to you. If you’re building something close to 0/0/30/20/20 then you’ll have perma vigor infinite dodges so use them early and often. Condi thief doesn’t have much damage but it is really tanky to compensate. Whenever you stealth wait until the last second to use sneak attack so you can get the full heal/condi cleanse.

I’d say D/P to compliment P/D for the escape power, but that’s getting nerfed, so I’d say Shortbow. The poison field’s nice since you don’t have that much poison uptime, which is important for condi pressure. Also, decent escape with #5.

In regards to armor, I’d stick with Dire. I tried Rabid, but you lose too much health for mediocre crits, and I personally don’t like Carrion because of the lack of toughness. The idea is attrition, not killing power. I think that’s what P/D excels at, because it doesn’t do much direct damage at all.

And never underestimate shortbow in a power/crit build. It’s not just for tagging, blasting fields and mobility. It’s a heck of a weapon in its own right. One of the primary downsides to a condition build is you’re not as good with this little gem

Oghier.7419:

And never underestimate shortbow in a power/crit build. It’s not just for tagging, blasting fields and mobility. It’s a heck of a weapon in its own right. One of the primary downsides to a condition build is you’re not as good with this little gem

Don’t forget the area weakness it can provide with both lotus poison and poison field+CB.

Shadowscamp.8065:

I’d say D/P to compliment P/D for the escape power, but that’s getting nerfed, so I’d say Shortbow. The poison field’s nice since you don’t have that much poison uptime, which is important for condi pressure. Also, decent escape with #5.

In regards to armor, I’d stick with Dire. I tried Rabid, but you lose too much health for mediocre crits, and I personally don’t like Carrion because of the lack of toughness. The idea is attrition, not killing power. I think that’s what P/D excels at, because it doesn’t do much direct damage at all.

Condi thief already kills too slowly for my liking so I’ll never recommend dire. If you like being more tanky and can accept that more fights will be stalemates then it’s a reasonable choice however. Carrion > rabid for thieves if you’re debating those.

Tried this build: http://www.intothemists.com/calc/index.php?build=-cR3V;1Rw-d07-7PFd0;9;4T-T-937B;148A;12;0FJk6;2jwmAjwmA3Nh
today in PvP. Into the mists didn’t have an option for the Settler’s necklace so I had to go Cleric in the builder. It’s probably not polished completely, but I was pretty satisfied with the results. /shrug. I feel like it’s a viable condi build for sure, in case you were interested.

Qaelyn.7612:

But I’m usually not sure what to do after that.

Looking for the next opportunity to use C&D to get into stealth.

Maybe running with a zerg for a bit will help shake off the stess/panic when in combat with players. Just zerg along and when you get bored split of to capture a camp or kill a Dolyak or something.

Oghier.7419:

And never underestimate shortbow in a power/crit build. It’s not just for tagging, blasting fields and mobility. It’s a heck of a weapon in its own right. One of the primary downsides to a condition build is you’re not as good with this little gem

Quite true. And without the on-crit initiative even blast finishing is less effective.

If you hadn’t gotten condi gear yet I’d suggest to go Soldiers (karma sets, or one of the others mentioned) with Berserker trinkets and jewels and something with 30 crit and 30 shadow arts. It leaves yo uwith more choices, even P/D works to some extend (at least as a survival set).

There is an indestructable build that will allow you to build confidence and timing and learn how the other characters attack while you can relax during engagement.

In WvW it’s full apothecary, but go to SPVP and play it cos fights are immediate and you figh every class each bout.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQRAoY4YlUmaPHfy8E+JFC3DLkpaK/DflugOFXlWB-TwAg2CrIATBmDMDYSwsgNCYFw2jpHA

Folks will say you can’t kill anyone… they’re wrong and I’ll post vids if you struggle with it. It’s actually a way of putting bleeds, cripple, poison and burning (rare for a thief) on a foe. Very nice against flavour of the month Warriors who try and stunliock you… you abuse deathblossoms and dodges so nothing sticks and you have 3 panic buttons if you don’t like how the fight is going.

Lead with pre-casting caltrops and then steal DB DB, weapon swap, DB, dodge and then look at how they cope with it.

Thanks for all the replies!

I do like the shortbow but I’m not sure it’s a great complement to the P/D build because as you guys said, it’s power-based and the P/D is a condition build. Also, P/D is already mostly a ranged weaponset while D/D is better for within melee and deathblossom synergizes nicely with the condition damage.

Now that is interesting, Faeyd. Never seen anything like that before. I assume the dual DD is just for the sigil swapping effect? I’ll try it out in PvP and if it works well maybe you can show me what a WvW version might look like.

Okay, just tried this out. It’s definitely hard to kill, and could be good if all I wanted to do was scout and then get away if discovered. But — at least in my newbie hands — it’s quite impotent in the damage departments. I’ve hung in against tough warriors and others for a fair bit of time, but I never really dent them damage wise. And as soon as all my utilities and heals are on cooldown, I’m finished.

Does seem useful for practicing and learning, but not sure how practical in the “real world”.

Agree in WvW it’s not ideal – it’s a learner sPVP build. I alternate between this and D/D triple signet burn max backstab in PvP so I play the bookends of the thief builds It’s rare I won’t come out on top in the bout in terms of glory on either though… they can both farm hard and pile up the points.

You are right on weapon swap – it’s just bleeds. Alternate set on the D/D backstab for me is P/P with bloodlust so I always blind stomp for bloodlust stacks.
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In WvW I got bored of roaming (bored of WvW to be honest) so all I do now there is I am bored with tournies or hotjoin is run around on 4k+power dual pistols with ricochet and harvest off the back of the zerg. I’ll PM the P/P if you want but people are straight when they say it’s rubbish (unless zerg surfing).

Short bow works with condition builds because as a thief you’re either in a fight or you’re out. If you suddenly decide you need to be out then there is no better weapon than short bow to take you out.