Guild Wars 2

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Cynz.9437:

There was post after post that can be summed into: “please nerf all viable thief sets (d/p especially) so thief is so crappy that Anet one day might buff my beloved d/d. I couldn’t care less that thieves had abyssal experience for seasons in pvp and that my request would doom them to even worse experience”.

Yes, i will defend the only set that keeps us barely viable in high tier pvp. It is not broken just because you hate it and just because your beloved d/d is suffering from devs poor choices.

Different philosophies. ANet has a history of actually doing something when a class is so bad it’s not good at anything. I.E., the ranger CDI and its effects on longbow, what happened to our DPS, changes to warrior post-hambow nerf, etc. Granted, I hated the change in respects to the dagger and staff seeing AA damage also buffed, but only because it offset the QoL attack speed love to sword due to it being so astronomically bad. Even P/P has gotten tons of love as compensation for all the projectile hate in order to make Unloads count for more. A lot of these are surface-level, though, and don’t really look into the cause of the problems to begin with.

See, if they nerfed Shadow Shot, and only Shadow Shot, how tremendously would it really effect the thief, particularly skilled players? I don’t think it would be that bad. It’d tone down D/P in-line mathematically and conceptually with other sets. To me, that’s not an actual problem. A dominant build in a generally under-performing class shouldn’t be what keeps the class from receiving adjustments. That’s poor game design and you know it is.

Likely the result of a nerf here would be that every poor player running the build would be at a loss. This means ANet, who pretty much exclusively QA’s and designs around the meta builds at low skill competency, would improve something somewhere, and since they’re so adamant on not undoing (bad) decisions, it’d probably go somewhere else more beneficial to everyone.

The way I see it is the thief community is never going to agree or see change if its members constantly argue from different build performance perspectives based solely on weapon efficacy. OH dagger is probably never getting buffed or reworked, because in all seriousness, the only thing ANet actually cares about with this profession is how D/P plays. It’s why it never gets hit hard by the profession changes while other sets get gored.

It’s not that D/P is inherently overpowered so much as I think a nerf to Shadow Shot would be enough to break the camel’s back within the low-skill tier of play to finally make ANet realize more needs to change.

And if I’m wrong? D/P players already pretty much getting rolled by the meta builds will continue to get rolled, and those who massively out-play their opponents still likely will continue to. If a nerf to Shadow Shot breaks the entire thief in general, then it only proves my argument as being correct in every respect.

Jana.6831:

So, you didn’t get it after all, firefly – I’m honestly confused what your point is..

No offense but you seem to have comprehension or english reading issues. I’m not saying that to be a prick but wonder if english is not your first language in which case I ’m happy to explain things a bit more comprehensively.

In short get what exactly? There’s no right/wrong, black/white. Such issues as balance and build variation are multifaceted and complex and I’m interested to discuss and debate the topic. Not get into “My opinion is right, yours is therefore wrong” cyclic arguments that serve little actual purpose and stifle debate in place of argument for the sake of it.

To be basic my main points are:

1. I find the lack of build variation and options in PvP, and to a lesser extent PvE, to be a deterrent to both my enjoyment of the Thief class and the amount of time I spend playing it comparative to the first 2-3 years the game was out when there were more variations that were viable in all formats. As someone who mostly plays PvE now the recent VS changes have recently aggravated this and taken away the viability of yet another build players had been using for years.

In short I play other classes more than my main as they have more viable and enjoyable build and play style variation.

2. As such I’m not a fan of the trend over the last 2-3 years that has slowly nerfed other builds into non-options or watered down versions of their previous potency and effectiveness, as can be observed in the PvP meta over the last 2-3 years, therefore funneling the player base towards one meta option and one stale play style.

3. Nerfing D/P is a completely counter-intuitive solution that completely ignores the issue and will only make the class even less viable. As much as I hate the lack of build choices in PvP one meta build is better than zero.

As such I think we agree with each other in that we would both prefer other options and play styles to be more viable in meta play, while I disagree with your thoughts that nerfing D/P will accomplish this.

fireflyry.7023:

No offense but you seem to have comprehension or english reading issues. I’m not saying that to be a prick but wonder if english is not your first language in which case I ’m happy to explain things a bit more comprehensively.

It is not my first language, but I guess in this case it is you: I already wrote it and I guess I’m in need of a forum break again as I’m feeling like a parrot again: You can’t save or buff thief unless you nerf D/P.

fireflyry.7023:

In short get what exactly? There’s no right/wrong, black/white. Such issues as balance and build variation are multifaceted and complex and I’m interested to discuss and debate the topic. Not get into “My opinion is right, yours is therefore wrong” cyclic arguments that serve little actual purpose and stifle debate in place of argument for the sake of it.

See above.

fireflyry.7023:

1. I find the lack of build variation and options in PvP, and to a lesser extent PvE, to be a deterrent to both my enjoyment of the Thief class and the amount of time I spend playing it comparative to the first 2-3 years the game was out when there were more variations that were viable in all formats. As someone who mostly plays PvE now the recent VS changes have recently aggravated this and taken away the viability of yet another build players had been using for years.

You can play anything in PvE actually – although staff and D/D are the most efficient in most cases – D/D always was.

fireflyry.7023:

3. Nerfing D/P is a completely counter-intuitive solution that completely ignores the issue and will only make the class even less viable. As much as I hate the lack of build choices in PvP one meta build is better than zero.

See first point – read a bit more into thief traits and weaponskills before you claim that nerfing D/P wouldn’t solve anything. You can’t buff other sets enough to be able to compete with D/P. And that is where our issue is – it’s not the language, it’s not my black and white thinking, it’s your lack of understanding thief – no offense.

fireflyry.7023:

As such I think we agree with each other in that we would both prefer other options and play styles to be more viable in meta play, while I disagree with your thoughts that nerfing D/P will accomplish this.

I guess I’ve finally kind of explained that – or at least I hope so.
In the end: Duel a D/P thief as a non D/P thief.

ETA: And this sounds meaner than it was intended. I’m just very tired of saying the whole stuff again and again and no one listens and nothing changes.
The game as a whole is in desperate need of balance, yes – so D/P thief is ok in comparison with others (a bit worse in pvp), it’s OP in comparison with nearly every other thief set – and that’s the problem. Because as long as there will be thieves (the remaining are D/P) anet won’t realize that there is a massive problem.

Jana.6831:

You can play anything in PvE actually – although staff and D/D are the most efficient in most cases – D/D always was.

That’s true but not what I was getting at. You could play naked with a wet noodle, spam 111111 and win the game but that’s irrelevant to players also wanting to play on the same tier and on par with their peers or friends. It’s also more about the bleed through of nerfs and buffs aimed at the PvP meta effecting, or even neutering, PvE builds and the options available to feel relevant while contributing to team play as opposed to being carried by superior classes/builds and just being along for the ride out of the kindness of their hearts.

The class has always struggled with this:

“Oh crap….a thief…uhhh…..guess we can make this work”

…..instead of ….

“Oh wicked a thief!!!LETS ROCK!!!”.

It’s better than it was now we are on par with DPS output, no doubt, but the general attitude and consensus is still there in part and the class is still pigeon holed as a result. The death of the old VS build has only exacerbated this situation.

Jana.6831:

And that is where our issue is – it’s not the language, it’s not my black and white thinking, it’s your lack of understanding thief – no offense.

None taken, but your wrong. While I was merely trying to be polite in the case english was’nt you first language your basically saying “Your ignorant and have no knowledge of the class…..no offense” which is just sugar coating a direct insult and assumption.

Jana.6831:

In the end: Duel a D/P thief as a non D/P thief.

One of the most kittened types of logic and rebuttal when it comes to discussing this issue. Bringing up dueling just shows there are flaws in your argument. It’s a team game, not 1v1. While dueling happens in certain situations in PvP and WvW to base balance on it is just futile. People tried the same logic in GW1 and it was largely ignored as it held little to no merit.

Anyway I’m not really into quote by quote dissection and cyclic argument, apparently you most certainly are after reading your discussions with other posters. As such I’m more than happy to agree to disagree and move on.

All the best, gl & hf.