Stop your whining condition warriors are weak and do next to no damage. Maybe in your 1v1 environment or without ANY team support you may eventually die to one. This is a complete L2P issue.
Condition warrior is far do next to no damage. I did not say he is Op but saying he is weak and deal next to no damage is wrong. My friend play one and I could never defeat him. You know what hurt? Torment stacks with Impale…2s Immbilized inside the Arrow Fire,,ewwww….
Really? Last kitten warrior running this died cuz everytime he dumped 15 stacks of bleeds for 20 seconds it was gone 1 second after application then he was smacking me dealing 100 damage with his autoattack.
Much like how people complained about bullcharge->Frenzy->HB because they refused to bring a stunbreaker, this is the same case of bring some condition cleanse. One of the first conditions removed is bleed, and so happens the most damaging condition a warrior inflicts is BLEED.
Also you forget that one guardian, ele, or necro nearby will just randomly cleanse all conditions from 4 other guys making the warrior pretty worthless. I LOVE cond warriors when I’m a necro nothing like tossing the 20 stacks of bleed right back in their face + w/e other junk they threw at me.
(edited by Forestgreen.7981)
You should be guardian condition build..oh wait..there isn’t one..unlike every other profession.
Conditions are broken right now, they have no stat or a boon that reduces their incoming damage, like power has toughness/armor and protection.
Give one screenshot or a piece of official information that clearly states this:
“VITALITY REDUCES CONDITION DAMAGE”
If you can not do that then please stop spreading your BS propaganda.
Damage is really just a relative amount. 2k damage means a lot more if you only have 12k health than it means to somebody that has 30k health.
Now, the only reason why you say that toughness “reduces” direct damage done to you is because you don’t understand the nature of damage. If you had 2000 armor and took 300 damage, and then upped it to 3000 armor and took 200 damage, you might think “oh look, I reduced the damage dealt to me”. But this is no different from a person with 20,000 health taking 1000 vitality to get 30,000 health, except in that the latter situation results in a decrease in heal effectiveness. In both situations, you reduced the damage by 2/3 relative to your health, but the difference is that you don’t think that vitality reduced damage to you because you’re stuck in this very narrow world of thought that states “if I don’t see a number go down, it can’t be that damage is decreasing”. What does it matter if the numbers don’t decrease? You can’t just look at two damage values, 200 and 300, and suddenly determine that it’s better to have the former amount of damage done to you, because you don’t know how much your health is in either situation. If you had 500,000 health, would you really take any toughness whatsoever? Would you really be concerned about conditions that deal 100 damage per second to you? Of course not (or if you did, I’d be sincerely concerned about your mental health).
The fact of the matter is that vitality reduces direct damage just as much as toughness does (actually, at least at the start of build creation, by more than does toughness), but when it comes to conditions all that really matters is vitality, as toughness has no effect on condition damage done relative to your health anyways.
That you can’t see through this incredibly simple concept is just… Mind-blowing, really. It takes a supreme level of ignorance to try and leave out this important concept from your mind.
“except the latter reduces heal effectiveness”
I really do not think you should be allowed to dismiss something so crucial as healing effectiveness then launch into a huge tirade completely disregarding it in your calculations. If heal effectiveness was taken into account high toughness outweighs high vitality by a large amount when talking about direct damage, except conditions don’t have this caveat.
Conditions are broken right now, they have no stat or a boon that reduces their incoming damage, like power has toughness/armor and protection.
Give one screenshot or a piece of official information that clearly states this:
“VITALITY REDUCES CONDITION DAMAGE”
If you can not do that then please stop spreading your BS propaganda.
The fact of the matter is that vitality reduces direct damage just as much as toughness does (actually, at least at the start of build creation, by more than does toughness), but when it comes to conditions all that really matters is vitality, as toughness has no effect on condition damage done relative to your health anyways.
That you can’t see through this incredibly simple concept is just… Mind-blowing, really. It takes a supreme level of ignorance to try and leave out this important concept from your mind.
Vitality doesn’t lower any damage. Heres a flaw here….
Vitality will not slow down incoming damage. As you pointed out earlier, toughness actually IMPROVES the effect of healing, which is why healing has to be so weak. If I can cut down the damage incoming by even 20% that makes my heals 20% stronger over the course of a fight, because it takes less of them to replenish the damage I took…because I took less damage as a result of that toughness.
Vitality however doesn’t slow down the rate at which you take damage, it just initially says you can take more damage.
So in a battle of attrition, condition damage is ideal because it ignores toughness (you will have some of this no matter what) protection boons, weakness condition, etc.
This is why certain abilities actually remove conditions. That’s right, they had to put in abilities to get rid of conditions because otherwise your only counter would be as you put it vitality (which I proved does NOT really counter it at all in an attrition sense….which is very real because everyone can heal themselves and many can avoid damage for quite awhile to buy time to heal 2-4 times per fight or more depending on how much access they have to self heals).
Mind blown? I can break it down more into formula if you like, but I think its basic enough knowledge that it shouldn’t warrant that.
with all that said, classes that have higher access to CC and means to stay in the fight longer benefit more from the condition meta than others, which is apparent by who is dominating right now in matches.
You should be guardian condition build..oh wait..there isn’t one..unlike every other profession.
burning guard power build gs sep shield.
one thing i don’t get is why on earth warrior’s bleeding last soooooo kitten long compared to any other class? like wtf, i want 20sec+ of bleeds on my mesmer and ranger as well
And i want 20sec+ of poison on my warrior. Whats the point?
Look guys seriosuly the guy who said the longbow 5 killed him is just pathetic.
O wow I brought no condiotiom removal so a CONDITION build killed me /sarcasm
This is like saying you died to an entangle becuz
1: you have no conditon removal
2: too stupid to kill the roots.
Thats like bringing no stunbreak/no blind and being cc chained to death.
Stop being kitten builds then complaining when you lose to it.
I’ve never lost to a condition warrior and I laugh at them in tournaments becuz they stink.
Stop your complaining this is L2P.
Conditions are broken right now, they have no stat or a boon that reduces their incoming damage, like power has toughness/armor and protection.
Give one screenshot or a piece of official information that clearly states this:
“VITALITY REDUCES CONDITION DAMAGE”
If you can not do that then please stop spreading your BS propaganda.
The fact of the matter is that vitality reduces direct damage just as much as toughness does (actually, at least at the start of build creation, by more than does toughness), but when it comes to conditions all that really matters is vitality, as toughness has no effect on condition damage done relative to your health anyways.
That you can’t see through this incredibly simple concept is just… Mind-blowing, really. It takes a supreme level of ignorance to try and leave out this important concept from your mind.
Vitality doesn’t lower any damage. Heres a flaw here….
Vitality will not slow down incoming damage. As you pointed out earlier, toughness actually IMPROVES the effect of healing, which is why healing has to be so weak. If I can cut down the damage incoming by even 20% that makes my heals 20% stronger over the course of a fight, because it takes less of them to replenish the damage I took…because I took less damage as a result of that toughness.
Vitality however doesn’t slow down the rate at which you take damage, it just initially says you can take more damage.
So in a battle of attrition, condition damage is ideal because it ignores toughness (you will have some of this no matter what) protection boons, weakness condition, etc.
This is why certain abilities actually remove conditions. That’s right, they had to put in abilities to get rid of conditions because otherwise your only counter would be as you put it vitality (which I proved does NOT really counter it at all in an attrition sense….which is very real because everyone can heal themselves and many can avoid damage for quite awhile to buy time to heal 2-4 times per fight or more depending on how much access they have to self heals).
Mind blown? I can break it down more into formula if you like, but I think its basic enough knowledge that it shouldn’t warrant that.
with all that said, classes that have higher access to CC and means to stay in the fight longer benefit more from the condition meta than others, which is apparent by who is dominating right now in matches.
At least someone that says things straight, no more Vitality reduces condition damage FALSE PROPAGANDA.
Noone ever said vitality reduces condition damage.
Noone ever said vitality reduces condition damage.
Conditions are broken right now, they have no stat or a boon that reduces their incoming damage, like power has toughness/armor and protection.
The post with the sponge bob character…
Warrior needing buff and some guys wanting nerf…
Make an warrior, try to run cond build and see yourself…
Tell that to ecro, what is with all these other classes players coming in here and complain? You no longer able to own warrior easily make you sad?
Warrior have change their game, people need to learn to change their counters, many are unwilling to do so and prefer crying about it on the forums.
Warrior have change their game, people need to learn to change their counters, many are unwilling to do so and prefer crying about it on the forums.
pure unadulterated truth!!!
The problem with condition warrior is all its damage comes from one condition but a lot of it. Where one cure will take it all away.
On my necromancer I can put Confusion Burning Chill Bleeding Poison Torment Weakness all in a short period of time. (2-3 seconds.) Then spread it to your friends with Epidemic…
I can do this all from a safe distance. Whereas a Warrior has to be in the thick of it, taking aoe damage for mediocre returns.
Vitality doesn’t lower any damage. Heres a flaw here….
Vitality will not slow down incoming damage. As you pointed out earlier, toughness actually IMPROVES the effect of healing, which is why healing has to be so weak. If I can cut down the damage incoming by even 20% that makes my heals 20% stronger over the course of a fight, because it takes less of them to replenish the damage I took…because I took less damage as a result of that toughness.
*Vitality however doesn’t slow down the rate at which you take damage, it just initially says you can take more damage. *
So in a battle of attrition, condition damage is ideal because it ignores toughness (you will have some of this no matter what) protection boons, weakness condition, etc.
This is why certain abilities actually remove conditions. That’s right, they had to put in abilities to get rid of conditions because otherwise your only counter would be as you put it vitality (which I proved does NOT really counter it at all in an attrition sense….which is very real because everyone can heal themselves and many can avoid damage for quite awhile to buy time to heal 2-4 times per fight or more depending on how much access they have to self heals).
Mind blown? I can break it down more into formula if you like, but I think its basic enough knowledge that it shouldn’t warrant that.
with all that said, classes that have higher access to CC and means to stay in the fight longer benefit more from the condition meta than others, which is apparent by who is dominating right now in matches.
This seems to be the issue that everybody is having here.
1000 damage to somebody with 10k health is equivalent to 10,000 damage to somebody with 100k health. But if you did 1000 damage to somebody with 100k health, it would mean far less than doing that same amount of damage to somebody with 10k health.
It’s problematic because you people don’t see past the numbers. If something says “100” here, and says “100” there as well, you immediately find those two to be equivalent.
If I had a part-time job paying minimum wage, the decision to buy a yacht might have a much different result than if I worked full-time making 10 million dollars a year.
You say that in a “battle of attrition, condition damage is ideal because it ignores toughness (you will have some of this no matter what) protection boons, weakness condition, etc.” The next paragraph, though, you say
This is why certain abilities actually remove conditions. That’s right, they had to put in abilities to get rid of conditions because otherwise your only counter would be as you put it vitality (which I proved does NOT really counter it at all in an attrition sense….which is very real because everyone can heal themselves and many can avoid damage for quite awhile to buy time to heal 2-4 times per fight or more depending on how much access they have to self heals).
First of all, you didn’t prove anything related to vitality- in fact, all you mentioned was toughness. But anyways, moving forward:
You want to believe that, in the long run, vitality means nothing because people can heal themselves, and, if I understand correctly, is actually detrimental because it reduces your heal effectiveness. In the long run, however, vitality still reduces condition damage just as much as it would otherwise. It’s not like vitality magically disappears in the long run or something; it still remains and it still reduces condition damage more than if you had had, say, 5k less health.
And of course there are abilities that remove conditions, because conditions also reduce mobility, heal effectiveness, etc, and if a player was able to force all of these onto an opponent, it would be impossible for that player to win if he or she couldn’t use a condition removal. Also, remember that you can’t evade past conditions that are already on you, which you can do with direct damage that hasn’t hit you yet, so of course there need to be condition removers.
You finish with a fairly standard causative-correlative fallacy. How do you know that conditions are dominating the meta now because they’re OP? Maybe they’re dominating because everybody thinks they’re dominating the meta and thus they choose to play condition builds, and with the influx of condition builds it becomes more likely for condition builds to dominate the meta in the first place.
But go ahead, show me your math, blow me away. Not that that’s really possible.
your ego overlooked the main point of my post. Vitality doesn’t lower the damage taken from conditions. Because attrition is very real in fights with heals/regens/deathshroud etc. The fight is not about who started with the highest HP, its about who can out last.
Vitality does NOT help you against conditions more than it helps you against direct damage. Fact. You seem to think this variable only applies to condition damage…it doesn’t. Vitality is simply the HP you start out with. But a guardian or necro who constantly knocks you off your feet while regening and lowering a huge portion of the incoming damage…may start the battle with half your HP, but end up taking FAR more damage over the course of the battle due to their ability to absorb damage and heal themselves.
You know this, you just dodged the main point cause…well…your ego couldn’t handle being proven wrong. Sorry, its a fact. Vitality does NOT lower the damage of inc condition damage anymore than it lowers the damage from direct damage…infact it lowers neither, simply allows you to see a bigger number at the start of a fight…does not mean you will have been able to take more damage by the end of the fight.
Fights in this game are a battle of attrition, perhaps you blinded yourself to that.
(edited by Zinwrath.2049)
As a Main warrior I would have to say that the current state of Condition warriors is broken. 10 stacks of torment + bleeds + fire is a little much, it is more the runes of tormenting that need to be toned down rather then the warrior itself.
your ego overlooked the main point of my post. Vitality doesn’t lower the damage taken from conditions. Because attrition is very real in fights with heals/regens/deathshroud etc. The fight is not about who started with the highest HP, its about who can out last.
Vitality does NOT help you against conditions more than it helps you against direct damage. Fact. You seem to think this variable only applies to condition damage…it doesn’t. Vitality is simply the HP you start out with. But a guardian or necro who constantly knocks you off your feet while regening and lowering a huge portion of the incoming damage…may start the battle with half your HP, but end up taking FAR more damage over the course of the battle due to their ability to absorb damage and heal themselves.
You know this, you just dodged the main point cause…well…your ego couldn’t handle being proven wrong. Sorry, its a fact. Vitality does NOT lower the damage of inc condition damage anymore than it lowers the damage from direct damage…infact it lowers neither, simply allows you to see a bigger number at the start of a fight…does not mean you will have been able to take more damage by the end of the fight.
Fights in this game are a battle of attrition, perhaps you blinded yourself to that.
You’re lucky that I even decided to bother reading the rest of your post after the first sentence.
I’m not here to argue with somebody who’s going to try to pull the “you’re stupid, therefore I’m right” argument.
You’re lucky that I even decided to bother reading the rest of your post after the first sentence.
I’m not here to argue with somebody who’s going to try to pull the “you’re stupid, therefore I’m right” argument.
Did you really expect anything more from this forum? >_>
You’re lucky that I even decided to bother reading the rest of your post after the first sentence.
I’m not here to argue with somebody who’s going to try to pull the “you’re stupid, therefore I’m right” argument.
Did you really expect anything more from this forum? >_>
Depends on who I’m talking to. -_-
Everyone knows the correct argumentation method is “I’m right, therefore you are stupid.”
Wow, calm down everyone. It’s a game. Condi warriors aren’t overpowered or underpowered. Everything has a counter. Lets all get along now please.
You’re lucky that I even decided to bother reading the rest of your post after the first sentence.
I’m not here to argue with somebody who’s going to try to pull the “you’re stupid, therefore I’m right” argument.
Did you really expect anything more from this forum? >_>
Depends on who I’m talking to. -_-
Your point being that the guy who invested in 500 vitality with 25k hp vs the guy with 0 vitality that has 20k hp will always have a health pool of 25k, right? So after the initial extra 5k is stripped, any time he heals himself over that 20k mark, you consider the extra room for health, made possible by vitality, to be mitigating condi damage when compared to the guy topped out at 20k. Is that what you are saying?
Condition damage is so easy to achieve because you only need one stat, and that is Condition damage, while power damage requires Power, Crit chance and Crit damage.
Your mistake is assuming that condition damage = power + crit chance + crit damage, when that’s not true.
Look at burning, for example:
328 + 0.25*cond per second.
0 condition damage = 328/sec
1312 condition damage = 656/sec
So it takes 1312 condition damage to double burning damage. Meanwhile, 1312 power will be a 1312/916 = 143% damage increase. So power alone increases physical damage better than condition damage does (at least for burning). Precision and crit damage are just additional damage increasing stats on top of that.
" It’s not like vitality magically disappears in the long run or something; it still remains and it still reduces condition damage more than if you had had, say, 5k less health."
This is the part that caught my attention. Once the HP from vitality is gone, it’s gone. At least that’s the assumption I’m opperating under. However, the health pool ceiling being raised is permanent which is what I thought you were referring to by vitality not “magically disappearing”. So once the initial health gained from vitality is taken away, it won’t help you again unless you replenish some of that extra space for hp that exists between base and +vitality heal pools. I’m getting the feeling I’m way off in understanding what you were trying to express.
But no, condi warriors do not need to be toned down. In fact, they still have a bit of work before they can/will be “meta” viable and are still far from undefeatable in HJ/sPvP. Hope this helps a little on the understanding side.
^ This. I think they’re in a much better place than say, condi mesmers, but their condis just don’t stick like a necro or engi. Usually having to rely on sigils for additional condition types to protect your bleeds.
" It’s not like vitality magically disappears in the long run or something; it still remains and it still reduces condition damage more than if you had had, say, 5k less health."
This is the part that caught my attention. Once the HP from vitality is gone, it’s gone. At least that’s the assumption I’m opperating under. However, the health pool ceiling being raised is permanent which is what I thought you were referring to by vitality not “magically disappearing”. So once the initial health gained from vitality is taken away, it won’t help you again unless you replenish some of that extra space for hp that exists between base and +vitality heal pools. I’m getting the feeling I’m way off in understanding what you were trying to express.
Haha alright.
You are certainly right to an extent, but it’s difficult to say what health comes from vitality and what doesn’t. For example, if I have 15k base health and boost that to 20k health, and then I take 15k damage, does that mean that the 5k health that I got from vitality still exists directly, or that the 5k health was depleted and then I took 10k damage- whatever. In truth, it doesn’t really matter that much. What matters more is really how much damage opponents do relative to your level of health. As shown in the little problem beforehand, how can we say that the 5k health was depleted from the initial 5k of the 15k damage? However, we can say that, when I went from having 15k health to 20k health, the 15k damage that was dealt to me turned from being 100% of my health to being 75% of my health. So rather than looking at health as a resource that, once depleted, means nothing, we can relate damage dealt to a player relative to his or her total health to come up with a more accurate value of how much damage is done to players.
It is thus that my most recent theory crafting does not necessarily define health by numbers like “20,000 health”, or anything to that extent, but it has rather been defined as an extraordinarily simple number: 1. 1 represents the whole of a player’s health. Every player has a health level, thus, by this formula, of 1, but the damage dealt to these players varies. For example, if a player has 10k health and takes 2k damage, I’d say that the player takes .2 damage, or 20% damage. If that same player has 20k health, however, then that player takes .1 damage (10% damage).
Also, if a person has 15k health left, but had 20k health originally, then I also define remaining health by a fraction of original health. In this instance, I’d say that the player with 15k health has .75 (75%) health left. Thus, if somebody with .75 health left took .1 damage, he or she would be left with .65 health. When you look at vitality in this light, rather than acting as an arbitrary number that boosts health (which has no true meaning unless compared side-by-side with damage), vitality instead acts directly as a form of damage reduction, by reducing those decimals like .1 and .2 to numbers proportional to the amount by which you’ve increased your health.
So maybe that’ll help you understand it better. Also, realize that vitality also allows you to use your heals more productively. For instance, would you rather heal for 5k if you currently have 12.5k health and a maximum of 15k health, or if you had a maximum of 20k health? Well, in the second example, you heal for 2.5k more, meaning that you can spend 2.5k more health dealing more damage to opponents, or increasing how far away you can escape- whatever.
But yeah, the important takeaway from this is that vitality doesn’t just “disappear”; like toughness, it has long-term effects on the amount of damage that is dealt to you.
I love wall of text, because a wall of text is not a fact, facts are short and concise, a wall of text means that anyone is trying to convince you to BELIEVE, its like a religion, you just have to have FAITH.
Fact: Vitality dosent reduce condition damage nor it has to do anything to do specifically to condition damage period.
Vitality is only good for absorbing a huge damage spike (providing you have enough toughness). As a rule of thumb for my WvW warrior builds I aim for at least 1600 toughness before I start thinking about adding some vitality.
" It’s not like vitality magically disappears in the long run or something; it still remains and it still reduces condition damage more than if you had had, say, 5k less health."
This is the part that caught my attention. Once the HP from vitality is gone, it’s gone. At least that’s the assumption I’m opperating under. However, the health pool ceiling being raised is permanent which is what I thought you were referring to by vitality not “magically disappearing”. So once the initial health gained from vitality is taken away, it won’t help you again unless you replenish some of that extra space for hp that exists between base and +vitality heal pools. I’m getting the feeling I’m way off in understanding what you were trying to express.
Haha alright.
You are certainly right to an extent, but it’s difficult to say what health comes from vitality and what doesn’t. For example, if I have 15k base health and boost that to 20k health, and then I take 15k damage, does that mean that the 5k health that I got from vitality still exists directly, or that the 5k health was depleted and then I took 10k damage- whatever. In truth, it doesn’t really matter that much. What matters more is really how much damage opponents do relative to your level of health. As shown in the little problem beforehand, how can we say that the 5k health was depleted from the initial 5k of the 15k damage? However, we can say that, when I went from having 15k health to 20k health, the 15k damage that was dealt to me turned from being 100% of my health to being 75% of my health. So rather than looking at health as a resource that, once depleted, means nothing, we can relate damage dealt to a player relative to his or her total health to come up with a more accurate value of how much damage is done to players.
It is thus that my most recent theory crafting does not necessarily define health by numbers like “20,000 health”, or anything to that extent, but it has rather been defined as an extraordinarily simple number: 1. 1 represents the whole of a player’s health. Every player has a health level, thus, by this formula, of 1, but the damage dealt to these players varies. For example, if a player has 10k health and takes 2k damage, I’d say that the player takes .2 damage, or 20% damage. If that same player has 20k health, however, then that player takes .1 damage (10% damage).
Also, if a person has 15k health left, but had 20k health originally, then I also define remaining health by a fraction of original health. In this instance, I’d say that the player with 15k health has .75 (75%) health left. Thus, if somebody with .75 health left took .1 damage, he or she would be left with .65 health. When you look at vitality in this light, rather than acting as an arbitrary number that boosts health (which has no true meaning unless compared side-by-side with damage), vitality instead acts directly as a form of damage reduction, by reducing those decimals like .1 and .2 to numbers proportional to the amount by which you’ve increased your health.
So maybe that’ll help you understand it better. Also, realize that vitality also allows you to use your heals more productively. For instance, would you rather heal for 5k if you currently have 12.5k health and a maximum of 15k health, or if you had a maximum of 20k health? Well, in the second example, you heal for 2.5k more, meaning that you can spend 2.5k more health dealing more damage to opponents, or increasing how far away you can escape- whatever.
But yeah, the important takeaway from this is that vitality doesn’t just “disappear”; like toughness, it has long-term effects on the amount of damage that is dealt to you.
Thank you for the thorough explanation. I understand what you mean now. One question though, do your calculations ever assume that you will lose more HP overall in a fight than your initial HP pool? I think I read earlier that your current models don’t account for all the variables within player healing, but it seems to me that as soon as health starts to fluctuate, the 1 value becomes more and more outdated as the fight goes on. There are obviously an unimaginable number of variables to consider, but in my own thoughs, vitality loses its luster as a fight drags on, especially if the attacker’s DPS is outpacing your HPS; at which point the advantage of avoiding “over healing” no longer exists, and the battle simply becomes a matter of mitigating as much of his damage as possible through cleanses, toughness, and avoidance so that you can hold onto as much of your healing as possible. I know that last little bit is pretty much inline with common thought on vitality vs toughness and you’ve already refuted it in your previous posts, which I see the strength of your argument in the early or short fight but not so much in the late or long fight.
(edited by Veritas.6071)
Thank you for the thorough explanation. I understand what you mean now. One question though, do your calculations ever assume that you will lose more HP overall in a fight than your initial HP pool? I think I read earlier that your current models don’t account for all the variables within player healing, but it seems to me that as soon as health starts to fluctuate, the 1 value becomes more and more outdated as the fight goes on. There are obviously an unimaginable number of variables to consider, but in my own thoughs, vitality loses its luster as a fight drags on, especially if the attacker’s DPS is outpacing your HPS; at which point the advantage of avoiding “over healing” no longer exists.
Well, once your health pool turns 0 or negative, then that’s basically just downed state. If I have 5% health left and take 10% damage, I go into downstate. It’s pretty much as simple as that.
The 1 value, remember, is simply “full health”, so it can’t really get outdated. For example, if I’m healing for .01 health per second on average and getting .03 damage dealt to me per second on average, then the simplistic equation for damage dealt to me over a period of time is going to be 1+(.1-.3)t = 1 – .2t, where t is time in seconds. I can now manipulate that however I want; perhaps if I apply weakness to my opponent 50% of the time, since weakness reduces damage by 25% of its original amount on average, I’d change that equation to 1+(.1-(.3*(1-.25*.5))t = 1 – .01625t damage (I’m doing this mostly in my head so there may be a slight error here or there).
But anyways, basically, assuming enemy DPS is greater than your healing in the long run (otherwise these calculations are pretty much useless anyways), we can measure the effects of enemy DPS in the long run. So, let’s define DPS by the variable D and health per second by the variable H. So, at base levels, your remaining health pool after t seconds equals
1 + (D – H)t
Now let’s say that I increase my health by 50%. Now, this equation equals
1 + (D – H)/1.5*t
Because, as we’ve already discussed, damage in these equations is represented as a fraction of health, so increasing health to 150% multiplies damage by the reciprocal of 1.5, which is of course 2/3. The same, however, goes for health; a 5k heal can be represented kitten for a person with 10k health, but for a person with 15k health, that heal can only be represented as ~.33.
However, as we stated earlier, we’re defining D in the long run as being greater than H. Therefore,
D/3 > H/3
Both of which are the changes in DPS and HPS by increasing health by 50%, respectively. Thus, because D/3 is going to be greater than H/3, we can confirm that the change in damage is going to be more significant than the change in healing in the long run, and thus
(D – H)t > (D – H)/1.5*t, or, in other words, the damage done per second (with healing) before the additional 50% health is going to be greater (relative to 1, our total health, whether that’s 10k health or 30k health) than when we did take the additional 50% health.
So, to answer your question, assuming DPS > HPS, vitality does not in fact lose its luster over the course of the fight, as it decreases the amount of damage done to you. Furthermore, the original “1” value is simply our base health, our maximum health. You can’t define “1” as our health at any given moment, because if I have 5k health left out of 20k health and I heal for 5k, it would seem rather silly to say that I have 150% health left in the long run, and ultimately the “1” value would mean nothing.
There is, of course, one dilemma, and that’s when DPS is actually less than or equal to HPS (this happens frequently with bunkers). In this case, it would be most preferable for the character doing the healing to change the bunkers stats so that HPS = DPS, or, your healing per second equals the amount of damage per second you take in the long run. It’s unnecessary for you to take more healing than you can use, of course.
(edited by Arganthium.5638)
(D – H)t > (D – H)/1.5*t, or, in other words, the damage done per second (with healing) before the additional 50% health is going to be greater (relative to 1, our total health, whether that’s 10k health or 30k health) than when we did take the additional 50% health.
Okay, I’m still following you. So my next question would be, in (D – H)t > (D – H)/1.5*t, are you giving (D – H)t an equivalent investment in any other attribute to keep the playing field level(toughness comes to mind)? Obviously, the initial numbers would still favor (D – H)/1.5*t, but with my broken math skills, I’m thinking that if, through the course of a fight, an equal investment in toughness could mitigate damage >/= hp gained from vitality, toughness would be an equally good choice and even better once its mitigated value surpassed that of an equal investment in vitality; unless, as you stated earlier, you are taking heavy condi damage, in which case I see the sense in your vitality argument.
Vitality does “reduce” damage in a fight if you choose to look at +5k hp as 5000 total reduction in damage. Absolutely nobody is disputing this.
You have like 3 walls of text explaining something everyone understands in the most superfluous way imaginable, but completely fail to address what people are saying about how vitality affects both direct and condition damage in the exact same way except direct damage is additionally affected by toughness, don’t provide a comparison of damage reduction of an equal amount of vitality and toughness when, if healing is taken into account, toughness will mitigate far, far more damage in the long run, and hilariously failed to account for how while vitality reduces the damage you take as a percentage of health, it also reduces the healing you receive as a percentage of health, and thus is an extremely pathetic form of damage “reduction”. Or rather, you do account for it, but only as a vacuum’d scenario when asking if vitality loses effectiveness over the course of the fight when the REAL issue is if it does that less than toughness does (it does not).
In fact, I’m fairly certain you are completely aware that you have just been arguing a complete tangent that doesn’t matter over people’s choice of words (“does vitality ‘reduce’ damage? Or does it just give you more hp? Well if you look at it just so..”) just to circle jerk about all the math you do.
(edited by Jzaku.9765)
(D – H)t > (D – H)/1.5*t, or, in other words, the damage done per second (with healing) before the additional 50% health is going to be greater (relative to 1, our total health, whether that’s 10k health or 30k health) than when we did take the additional 50% health.
Okay, I’m still following you. So my next question would be, in (D – H)t > (D – H)/1.5*t, are you giving (D – H)t an equivalent investment in any other attribute to keep the playing field level(toughness comes to mind)? Obviously, the initial numbers would still favor (D – H)/1.5*t, but with my broken math skills, I’m thinking that if, through the course of a fight, an equal investment in toughness could mitigate damage >/= hp gained from vitality, toughness would be an equally good choice and even better once its mitigated value surpassed that of an equal investment in vitality; unless, as you stated earlier, you are taking heavy condi damage, in which case I see the sense in your vitality argument.
Yes, I do take other stats into consideration. Basically, vitality reduces damage dealt to you (relative to our 1 value) more than does toughness up to a certain limit (barring a few initial stats exceptions, such as the necromancer’s extremely high base health but extremely low base defense). Of course though, as stated, against condition damage toughness does nothing, so if I’m expecting to take a huge amount of condition damage then very little toughness should be taken of course.
(D – H)t > (D – H)/1.5*t, or, in other words, the damage done per second (with healing) before the additional 50% health is going to be greater (relative to 1, our total health, whether that’s 10k health or 30k health) than when we did take the additional 50% health.
Okay, I’m still following you. So my next question would be, in (D – H)t > (D – H)/1.5*t, are you giving (D – H)t an equivalent investment in any other attribute to keep the playing field level(toughness comes to mind)? Obviously, the initial numbers would still favor (D – H)/1.5*t, but with my broken math skills, I’m thinking that if, through the course of a fight, an equal investment in toughness could mitigate damage >/= hp gained from vitality, toughness would be an equally good choice and even better once its mitigated value surpassed that of an equal investment in vitality; unless, as you stated earlier, you are taking heavy condi damage, in which case I see the sense in your vitality argument.
Yes, I do take other stats into consideration. Basically, vitality reduces damage dealt to you (relative to our 1 value) more than does toughness up to a certain limit (barring a few initial stats exceptions, such as the necromancer’s extremely high base health but extremely low base defense). Of course though, as stated, against condition damage toughness does nothing, so if I’m expecting to take a huge amount of condition damage then very little toughness should be taken of course.
Gotcha, I’m glad we got that ironed out. Thanks for humoring me.
OP sounds like some PvE scrub that’s never actually done PvP in an MMO ever.
You can’t build pure glass, that only gets you killed and your teammates can’t rely on you for help because the support you offer is just damage.
Damage isn’t the only thing in this game that can support a team.
OP says he plays many classes in sPvP but offers 0 scenarios of what classes he’s have trouble with against Warriors to prove his statement that "Warrior Condition Damage is ‘OP’ ".
In the end this is just some child crying about how he lost a match against a team that had a Warrior on it and that Warrior just happened to be better than OP.
Also, OP says he doesn’t play fotm builds. This is probably your problem, because you play a build that offers no utility against condition damage.
Lets be honest for a second. Conditions are capable of being handled well by all classes atm but the bombs that we see in spvp are over bearing. In WvW there is no reason to complain about condis. Every class has a build that obliterates them or simply manages them well. If you do not run that spec shame on you. Right now while sPvP meta is condis every where elses from PvE to WvW it is Power Crit Crit Damage.
Man, if I really cared about conditions that much, let’s use a warrior for example.
Mending, Shake It Off, Signet of Stamina, and maybe Soldiers runes if I really was desperate.
A lot of classes can just take conditions off completely, without resorting to speccing in any certain traits or stats. Just skills.
And if I have damage on my side, even with those skills I can take out a condition spammer before he can reapply those conditions onto me.
Or even if I don’t have damage, then I would use stuns, knockdowns, fears, etc. instead.
But maybe I just play warrior too much.
Conditions are broken right now, they have no stat or a boon that reduces their incoming damage, like power has toughness/armor and protection.
Vitality/Regeneration/Condition Clear
Low health isn’t an excuse because all classes with a low HP pool have access to either regen or easy condition clear. High health classes will ultimately have less of an issue with conditions because of their health.
Vitality > Toughness
Conditions are broken right now, they have no stat or a boon that reduces their incoming damage, like power has toughness/armor and protection.
Vitality/Regeneration/Condition Clear
Low health isn’t an excuse because all classes with a low HP pool have access to either regen or easy condition clear. High health classes will ultimately have less of an issue with conditions because of their health.
Vitality > Toughness
Fact: Vitality does not reduce condition damage nor it has to do anything with condition damage either.
Period.
Conditions are broken right now, they have no stat or a boon that reduces their incoming damage, like power has toughness/armor and protection.
Vitality/Regeneration/Condition Clear
Low health isn’t an excuse because all classes with a low HP pool have access to either regen or easy condition clear. High health classes will ultimately have less of an issue with conditions because of their health.
Vitality > Toughness
Vitality<Toughness, Conditions can be cleared, direct damage can’t. Better have toughness to reduce damage from a spike.
Conditions are broken right now, they have no stat or a boon that reduces their incoming damage, like power has toughness/armor and protection.
Vitality/Regeneration/Condition Clear
Low health isn’t an excuse because all classes with a low HP pool have access to either regen or easy condition clear. High health classes will ultimately have less of an issue with conditions because of their health.
Vitality > Toughness
Vitality<Toughness, Conditions can be cleared, direct damage can’t. Better have toughness to reduce damage from a spike.
That entirely depends on the class and it access to vitality, toughness, and how it manages conditions. TBH some classes like ele, thief, necromancer, guardian and engineer (to a degree) have access to builds within the class that all but negate condi damage. In other cases due to access to melandru ruins and food that reduces condition duration it is possible to not need much of either stat necessarily.
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