Does War's existence hang on Adrenal Health?

Does War's existence hang on Adrenal Health?

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Posted by: Ross Biddle.2367

Ross Biddle.2367

Just thought I’d throw this question out there.

I was looking at taking the perilous path of dropping Defense for more damage in another line. As I weighed up what I’d lose from Defense, considering everything, the one thing I decided I couldn’t live without was adrenal health. The defense line has a ton of great defensive stuff to get you through your day, but I can work around everything except the effect of AH.

Am I wrong?

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Posted by: Evilek.5690

Evilek.5690

Just thought I’d throw this question out there.

I was looking at taking the perilous path of dropping Defense for more damage in another line. As I weighed up what I’d lose from Defense, considering everything, the one thing I decided I couldn’t live without was adrenal health. The defense line has a ton of great defensive stuff to get you through your day, but I can work around everything except the effect of AH.

Am I wrong?

This is main problem why is warrior on lower tier with guiardian, guardian works little better vs low skill players.

Power warrior is locked on Defense and Discipline trait line. Without 5 sec weapon swap and adreanal healt is warrior really bad.

In WvW is unplayable right now, every single class burst you,owerheal you or kite you on death, only guardian is equivalent opponent

Evilek lvl 80 Charr Thief Why no ?
Fredy Brimstone lvl 80 Mighty Warrior
Oupí lvl 80 Immortal Guardian

(edited by Evilek.5690)

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Posted by: Ross Biddle.2367

Ross Biddle.2367

Just thought I’d throw this question out there.

I was looking at taking the perilous path of dropping Defense for more damage in another line. As I weighed up what I’d lose from Defense, considering everything, the one thing I decided I couldn’t live without was adrenal health. The defense line has a ton of great defensive stuff to get you through your day, but I can work around everything except the effect of AH.

Am I wrong?

This is main problem why is warrior on lower tier with guiardian, guardian works little better vs low skill players.

Power warrior is locked on Defense and Discipline trait line. Without 5 sec weapon swap and adreanal healt is warrior really bad.

In WvW is unplayable right now, every single class burst you,owerheal you or kite you on death

I don’t agree on 5s weapon swap, for the record. It’s amazing, but living without it is simply a matter of… discipline.

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Posted by: alain.1659

alain.1659

Warrior in wvw is way better than any vanilla class. Even some elites feel easy to defeat for me. I use vanilla warrior gs axe shield standart build. But I dare not drop defense or discipline. They are sadly a must.

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Posted by: Obindo.6802

Obindo.6802

Defense and discipline are mandatory, unless u wanna be useless

(edited by Obindo.6802)

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Posted by: Ross Biddle.2367

Ross Biddle.2367

I’m using the term “warrior” interchangeably with “berserker”.

Adrenal health isnt exclusive to either. It’s also essential to both, arguably speaking XD

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Posted by: Tomiyou.3790

Tomiyou.3790

Yup, it pretty much is. Just like ele has never dropped Water traitline from the beginning of the game, necro hasn’t dropped Soul Reaping in a long time and thief hasn’t dropped trickery in pretty much forever.

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Posted by: Abracadabra.3296

Abracadabra.3296

I actually play a warrior as my main character and while I’ll change between a zerker GS/Rifle build and my hybrid condi, I don’t have too much trouble. I will say that w/o the weapon swap trait, I’m dead.

The hybrid condi version I play is a bit more forgiving of mistakes and does well against 2v1 but it’s also not the most exciting build to play.

“I am become death, the shatter of worlds.”
Roaming Troll Warrior: Melee Conditions
GW2 Roleplayers – JOIN US! GW2 RP

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Posted by: Spartacus.3192

Spartacus.3192

Well seeing as the only thing changed between season 2 and season 3 was the adrenal health buff and in Season 2 warriors were trash and now they’re not, no prizes guessing the answer to your question.

Your typical average gamer -
“Buff my main class, nerf everything else. "

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Posted by: Steelo.4597

Steelo.4597

no you are not wrong since AH is the biggest warrior heal (might be wrong here, but pretty much) and not even in the healing slot… on the other hand what do you want to do when the game is in a state like this were everyone does huge damage and chains invuln/block/evade to survive. give us more invuln / stuff? impossible..

FORCED to defense for AH – hugely gimping yourself by halving your sigil usage if you dont go disc – and pretty much forced to take zerker if you want to duel against people who can dodge your burst. its really GG variety.

They need to change it like this: less powerfull traits / skills (for another bad example – cleansing ire – without it you can go home against condi bombers), but more of them distributed among all trait lines making evil trade-offs for damage if you want to stack them.

“I don’t agree on 5s weapon swap, for the record. It’s amazing, but living without it is simply a matter of… discipline.” kek nice pun.

i fear we will look back to this day and remember the good old wvw as it is now – Jan 2015

(edited by Steelo.4597)

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Posted by: EphemeralWallaby.7643

EphemeralWallaby.7643

In general, I’m not sure.

For me, yes it does. My original build when starting the warrior profession was to stack as much passive healing as possible…. While my grip on this concept has weakened w/ other builds I’ve tried, it’s not something I’ve been able to wholly drop. The new AH motivates me to use f1 more (and incorporate f1 use in my build considerations), and this has changed my game play for the better.

~EW

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Posted by: Elegie.3620

Elegie.3620

Most other classes can afford to go full damage with little to no sustain; but that is because their mechanics allows decent kiting and disengaging. As for the warrior? No teleport, no stealth, not the best mobility – you’re easily kitable and hittable, and will be kited and hit. That is the life of the warrior.

As a result, you need a certain amount of passive sustain – be it Adrenal Health, or anything equivalent (i.e. nothing). Going full damage (e.g. STR/DIS/ZER) can give big satisfying numbers, but opponents can easily draw conclusions after being killed once, then come with efficient counters. Plus does one really need that much damage to kill?

As for Discipline, I also think it’s mandatory. Fast Hands supplements so many shortcomings of the warrior mechanics. Sure, one can always find a build that could work without it – as one could find a build working for any class, which wouldn’t be using their respective mechanics to their full extent.

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Posted by: Cerby.1069

Cerby.1069

Just thought I’d throw this question out there.

I was looking at taking the perilous path of dropping Defense for more damage in another line. As I weighed up what I’d lose from Defense, considering everything, the one thing I decided I couldn’t live without was adrenal health. The defense line has a ton of great defensive stuff to get you through your day, but I can work around everything except the effect of AH.

Am I wrong?

pretty muh yes. youu can find perfect subs for pretty much all defense traits except adrenal. Exception might be subbing in some leeching/blood sigils…or even better if u run hammer theres the hot on interrupt lifesteal sigil….lifesteal/regen food as well….those r really the only other ways to get decent passive healing on hit.

alt go run defiant stance or some other heal instead of signet….and revolve the build around burst heal rather than sustained heal. gimmicky stuff, mainly pve usage.

Also i dont think warrior needs anymore buffs we are strong atm…need more moves during a fight tho. We just need more variety and control in our weapons/skills and more balanced/fixed trait lines…….our trait lines r so messed up lol.

I kill you in one gunflame, or I kill you in two.
The Tiny Yuno Sniper of Ebay [EBAY]

(edited by Cerby.1069)

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Posted by: lighter.2708

lighter.2708

AH is the only thing that make this class playable
in another word, OP passive regen is the only thing can make this kitten class playable..unless they ever give it more mechanics or utilities which we’ve been asking for since 2013, i guess no point..all they will do is buff healing like they did back in 2013, but hey warrior is viable now we should be happy right?

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Posted by: Caedmon.6798

Caedmon.6798

It doesn’t,i did fine before the buff aswell,it sure does help regenerating while i really need it though.

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Posted by: Ross Biddle.2367

Ross Biddle.2367

Most other classes can afford to go full damage with little to no sustain; but that is because their mechanics allows decent kiting and disengaging. As for the warrior? No teleport, no stealth, not the best mobility – you’re easily kitable and hittable, and will be kited and hit. That is the life of the warrior.

As a result, you need a certain amount of passive sustain – be it Adrenal Health, or anything equivalent (i.e. nothing). Going full damage (e.g. STR/DIS/ZER) can give big satisfying numbers, but opponents can easily draw conclusions after being killed once, then come with efficient counters. Plus does one really need that much damage to kill?

As for Discipline, I also think it’s mandatory. Fast Hands supplements so many shortcomings of the warrior mechanics. Sure, one can always find a build that could work without it – as one could find a build working for any class, which wouldn’t be using their respective mechanics to their full extent.

I agree that Fast Hands is amazing, and I can see the impact it has given all the effects swapping has for warrior (not sigils though, those are gated behind icd’s btw), however I can live without Fast Hands, literally, I can stay alive with a 10s cd weapon swamp instead of a 5. However, remove Adrenal Health and all fights swing wildly out of the wars favor. That’s the stark distinction I’m making. Nothing else in the Defense line is anywhere near as important. You could delete the entire line and just have a single trait “Adrenal Health”, and it’d be fine. But if you don’t take that single trait, bad times.

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Posted by: Elegie.3620

Elegie.3620

I agree that Fast Hands is amazing, and I can see the impact it has given all the effects swapping has for warrior (not sigils though, those are gated behind icd’s btw), however I can live without Fast Hands, literally, I can stay alive with a 10s cd weapon swamp instead of a 5. However, remove Adrenal Health and all fights swing wildly out of the wars favor. That’s the stark distinction I’m making. Nothing else in the Defense line is anywhere near as important. You could delete the entire line and just have a single trait “Adrenal Health”, and it’d be fine. But if you don’t take that single trait, bad times.

I have no doubt that you can live without Fast Hands, but the point is not to simply live, it’s to be outstanding! I’m sure you were able to live easily too before the new Adrenal Health, weren’t you? I know I had no problem winning fights, but winning consistently was just harder (had to disengage more), because other classes were unbalanced.

From a power warrior point of view, I think that the Defense line is essential not only for Adrenal Health, but also for Cleansing Ire. Before, you couldn’t really run Cleansing Ire, because you had to equip Berserker gear and wouldn’t fully take advantage of it (because being hit too much would kill you). Things are now different with Adrenal Health and the toughness brought by the Demolisher amulet, all these have made Cleansing Ire one of the best warrior traits again.

About the sigil thing, what you actually want is to maximize the ICD. If you want to proc Hydromancy every 10s on a warrior, you just need to use one sigil slot and swap every 5s. If you want to do the same on a mesmer, then you need to use two sigil slots – or accept to proc the sigil only once every 20 seconds, wasting about 11s. Fast Hands is just huge when it comes to on-swap sigils.

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Posted by: Liewec.2896

Liewec.2896

no.
its like anything, there is a scale,
on one side you have ultimate damage, on the other you have ultimate survivability.
most like to hover somewhere in the middle.

i mainly play zerker GS, completely down the “ultimate damage” end of the scale (strength/arms/berserker), it is far from useless because i enter a fight and start smashing out ridiculous damage (my highest 100b in Spvp was 32k), things die FAST.

however the lack of defensive traits and utilities obviously means i’m far squishier than more balanced wars, so to counteract this i take sword/shield as my “escape” set (complete with hydromancy+energy sigils to snare enemies and grant me an extra dodge roll)
escaping the fight to come back and wreck faces later has worked out very well for me so far,

so imho its all how you play, if you want to be able to stay in the fight dealing OKish damage then yes, adrenal health is mandatory for you, but if you want to play a damage dealing monster then there are ways to work around the lack of defence

tl:dr nope it isn’t mandatory, you can work around lack of survivability.

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Posted by: Ross Biddle.2367

Ross Biddle.2367

no.
its like anything, there is a scale,
on one side you have ultimate damage, on the other you have ultimate survivability.
most like to hover somewhere in the middle.

i mainly play zerker GS, completely down the “ultimate damage” end of the scale (strength/arms/berserker), it is far from useless because i enter a fight and start smashing out ridiculous damage (my highest 100b in Spvp was 32k), things die FAST.

however the lack of defensive traits and utilities obviously means i’m far squishier than more balanced wars, so to counteract this i take sword/shield as my “escape” set (complete with hydromancy+energy sigils to snare enemies and grant me an extra dodge roll)
escaping the fight to come back and wreck faces later has worked out very well for me so far,

so imho its all how you play, if you want to be able to stay in the fight dealing OKish damage then yes, adrenal health is mandatory for you, but if you want to play a damage dealing monster then there are ways to work around the lack of defence

tl:dr nope it isn’t mandatory, you can work around lack of survivability.

Before HoT I used to run Ultimate Killshot War (str/arms/disc) playing the roaming DPS roll (sw/wh Rifle). Coming from a mes main the burst and duke style came easy, so I know where you’re coming from.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Yv0YLzjSLw

In todays post HoT meta matchups can be very volatile, and the demand to hold up as a viable roll is super important. Being able to stand against things like power rev or good thieves in a 1v1 scenario is something the meta forces upon us rather than something you choose to want to do. Because of such things, loosing the sustain AH provides without the existence of any alternative means what your talking about is more the dream than a viable reality. Because no amount of sword disengage and shield blocking is going to withstand those two ultra insta teleporting high burst classes alone. Of course they’re not the only thorn in this warriors side.

So I fully understand the style of play and how well it can perform in a solid team (everyone loves reliable effective DPS) but it really only does go so far.

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Posted by: Silberfederling.9302

Silberfederling.9302

It is allways possible, but why?
Solo roaming? Yeah sure, just do not screw up.
Guild group? If you can trust your pals? Yeah sure, just do not screw up.
Wvw pug? Hell no why should i bother crying for heals while all the “healing” classes are like: aaaii niiiiiid moooooaaa aaaaaaoooeee ddddmmmmgg! Nope its not woth the hustle.

Bottom line is:
Mandatory to the extend of beging safeish even when unexpected kitten happens. Apart from that? Nice quality of life that reduces the Entry hurdle and gives experienced players a better sustain for outnumbered fights.
Final note: if you decide to run without it in pvp, disable chat, the abuse gets real XD

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Posted by: Jzaku.9765

Jzaku.9765

Literally the only thing keeping warr in the Meta right now is Adrenal Health, I’m not sure what the question is. Without Adrenal Health I’m sure you can manage to have some sort of semblance of effectiveness but it’s just a fact that you’re much, much worse off without it.

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Posted by: Stand The Wall.6987

Stand The Wall.6987

short answer, yes.

Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE

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Posted by: Interpret Interrupt.3824

Interpret Interrupt.3824

Most likely. I feel like it has given some warrior builds a lot more utility than expected. For my axe gs build, the additions from the trait are nice, but no where near the level to where it is over powered. I honestly like the defy pain trait change better.

K Pop
The Warrior, The Necro, The F1 Connoisseur
http://www.twitch.tv/interpretinterrupt

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Posted by: Interpretor.3091

Interpretor.3091

Yes.

15 Characters.

Warrior

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Posted by: Caedmon.6798

Caedmon.6798

No..power builds doing 5 – 9k dmg on one hit vs a warri wont be regenerated fast.The adren hp buff favors fighting vs condi’s mostly wich is a good thing,vs a power build it only rly matters if the warri kites alot to regain,and in that case you’ve just been outplayed.

I would like to see some other things being changed to warri besides passive regen.we need more general sustain,more acces to boons aswell,like protection.

(edited by Caedmon.6798)

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Posted by: Choppy.4183

Choppy.4183

No..power builds doing 5 – 9k dmg on one hit vs a warri wont be regenerated fast.The adren hp buff favors fighting vs condi’s mostly wich is a good thing,vs a power build it only rly matters if the warri kites alot to regain,and in that case you’ve just been outplayed.

I would like to see some other things being changed to warri besides passive regen.we need more general sustain,more acces to boons aswell,like protection.

I disagree. AH is is clearly a buff to general sustain that works as well against power builds as it does condi builds, just like Healing Signet does.

Sure, it doesn’t save you from massive spike damage (including condi spike, btw), but use a block or dodge on that spike and you’re now better off than you are against the condi build who lands multiple condi hits on you. The longer the fight goes, the less the spike matters.

I’m Biff Rangoon, and I approved this message.
Ehmry Bay | Omg Brb Icecream Truck (ICEE)

(edited by Choppy.4183)

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Posted by: emkelly.2371

emkelly.2371

+1 for choppy. AH is mandatory for a warrior to be viable in most modes of play and in ANY mode of play that is PVP. you can get away without it in PVE and thats about it.

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Posted by: Tristan.5280

Tristan.5280

As people said in this topic, yes and not only AH but each minor and major traits are mandatory:

Shield mastery: Necessary to mitigate dmg and counter projectiles
Defy Pain: Situational, but a great counter to burst
Rousing Resilience: a great trait with an excelent synergy with Berserker Specialization

Spiked armor + tough skin + RR = 1330 extra toughness

Yes, definitely war’s existance relies on Adrenal Health and other Def stuff.
Look at me. I go in wvw with PvE armor (Scholar Runes) and the GS/Sw-Sc build, Discipline – Defense – Berserker.

I do not have any problems, apart from other warriors

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Posted by: Hoaxintelligence.4628

Hoaxintelligence.4628

You guys have it all wrong.
Avatar of melandru is mandatory.
There is a reason why they deleted this elite skill in pvp. Seeing is believing.

Sît[MII]Ultimate Dominator
U N D E R W O R L D
W v W-r o a m e r

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Posted by: Caedmon.6798

Caedmon.6798

No..power builds doing 5 – 9k dmg on one hit vs a warri wont be regenerated fast.The adren hp buff favors fighting vs condi’s mostly wich is a good thing,vs a power build it only rly matters if the warri kites alot to regain,and in that case you’ve just been outplayed.

I would like to see some other things being changed to warri besides passive regen.we need more general sustain,more acces to boons aswell,like protection.

I disagree. AH is is clearly a buff to general sustain that works as well against power builds as it does condi builds, just like Healing Signet does.

Sure, it doesn’t save you from massive spike damage (including condi spike, btw), but use a block or dodge on that spike and you’re now better off than you are against the condi build who lands multiple condi hits on you. The longer the fight goes, the less the spike matters.

Condi’s can be cleansed,regen will fight the ticks in the meanwhile.Like i said a 9k hit wont be regenerated as fast as a condi burst wich can be stopped with resistance aswell.

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Posted by: Choppy.4183

Choppy.4183

Condi’s can be cleansed,regen will fight the ticks in the meanwhile.Like i said a 9k hit wont be regenerated as fast as a condi burst wich can be stopped with resistance aswell.

The point is, it doesn’t matter if you take 9k from a single hit or 9k from condi over a period of time. Unless the damage leads to your death, then AH is equally good at mitigating both. See for yourself….

Power Scenario:

  • Warrior eats a 9k hit
  • Defy Pain procs for 5s (due to Last Stand)
  • Warrior dodges next attack, and uses Shield Stance
  • Time elapsed: 10s
  • Total AH mitigation: AH/sec * 10s

Condi Scenario:

  • Warrior gets condi bombed, etc.
  • Time elapsed: 10s
  • Warrior ends up taking 9k over time period, after all condi mitigation, minus AH
  • Total AH mitigation: AH/sec * 10s

You originally said something like, “unless the warrior kites, etc. in the case of direct damage”, which is similar to what I have in my power scenario above.

Except that makes no difference at all unless you’re actually claiming power builds are more lethal than condi builds. For example, if your take on the scenarios above has the warrior taking 25k in 10s with the power scenario and still only 9k in 10s with the condi scenario, then you’re comparing apples to oranges.

As I said originally, condi or power, it only makes a difference if the spike kills you outright. Sure, your health pool will drop down more with the spike, but it’ll come right back up by the end of the time period and end up exactly where the health pool would have been in the condi scenario using the same incoming damage numbers.

I’m Biff Rangoon, and I approved this message.
Ehmry Bay | Omg Brb Icecream Truck (ICEE)

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Posted by: Caedmon.6798

Caedmon.6798

Condi’s can be cleansed,regen will fight the ticks in the meanwhile.Like i said a 9k hit wont be regenerated as fast as a condi burst wich can be stopped with resistance aswell.

The point is, it doesn’t matter if you take 9k from a single hit or 9k from condi over a period of time. Unless the damage leads to your death, then AH is equally good at mitigating both. See for yourself….

Power Scenario:

  • Warrior eats a 9k hit
  • Defy Pain procs for 5s (due to Last Stand)
  • Warrior dodges next attack, and uses Shield Stance
  • Time elapsed: 10s
  • Total AH mitigation: AH/sec * 10s

Condi Scenario:

  • Warrior gets condi bombed, etc.
  • Time elapsed: 10s
  • Warrior ends up taking 9k over time period, after all condi mitigation, minus AH
  • Total AH mitigation: AH/sec * 10s

You originally said something like, “unless the warrior kites, etc. in the case of direct damage”, which is similar to what I have in my power scenario above.

Except that makes no difference at all unless you’re actually claiming power builds are more lethal than condi builds. For example, if your take on the scenarios above has the warrior taking 25k in 10s with the power scenario and still only 9k in 10s with the condi scenario, then you’re comparing apples to oranges.

As I said originally, condi or power, it only makes a difference if the spike kills you outright. Sure, your health pool will drop down more with the spike, but it’ll come right back up by the end of the time period and end up exactly where the health pool would have been in the condi scenario using the same incoming damage numbers.

Thats a nice wall of text but i know from experience that adren hp does more good vs condi than it does vs power spikes.

Besides your power/condi scenario is all speculation and theory.A fight wont always go like that,and my post wasn;t based on 1on1 fights.

(edited by Caedmon.6798)

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Posted by: Choppy.4183

Choppy.4183

Thats a nice wall of text but i know from experience that adren hp does more good vs condi than it does vs power spikes.

Besides your power/condi scenario is all speculation and theory.A fight wont always go like that,and my post wasn;t based on 1on1 fights.

Lol, it’s simple math. As long as you’re talking about equal damage over the same period of time and a spike doesn’t kill you, then how you received that damage makes no difference to the effectiveness of Adrenal Health.

There’s also no need to get snippy about it.

I’m Biff Rangoon, and I approved this message.
Ehmry Bay | Omg Brb Icecream Truck (ICEE)

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Posted by: emkelly.2371

emkelly.2371

You both correct and wrong at the same time.

The thing is, AH is great for healing over time, that’s what it is after all, but because of that it cannot save you from a massive damage spike. It can heal you up after wards, but that’s about it.

Choppy is correct in that where you get the damage from does not matter to AH, but he is wrong in that the statement insinuates that it is equally as effective vs both forms of damage.

This is not the case. AH is more effective vs Direct damage spikes because a warrior has more ways of ignoring direct damage than they do ignoring condition damage spikes. So a warrior can by time for AH to heal them from direct damage, but they cannot as effectively ignore condition damage. (that’s what clearing is for. more on that in a second.)

However, Caedmon.6798, has stated unequivocally that AH is more effective vs Direct Damage. This is just not the case. (or at least not that simple) Yes, if you are taking 5k condi ticks from multiple conditions (lets say, Bleed, and burn) then yes AH is more effective Vs direct damage, mainly because you should never allow yourself to be taking that many condis to begin with. Warriors do not have many ways to negate Condi damage, but they have more than enough ways to limit the amount they take, through condi clears.

So in short. AH is always equally as effective, as long as you are doing what you are supposed to be doing as a warrior. If you are not, then condition damage will eat you right through AH at a quicker pace than Direct damage.

Its good to point out here as well. A thief can 100-45% a warrior with 19K health on 1.5 seconds. (Defy pain proc when you get hit at 50% or below HP, hence the 45% hp) If timed correctly 4 seconds later, the warrior will die in 1.5 seconds. That’s from direct damage. (its not overpowered either, not complaining about thieves here)

So it also depends on what you are fighting. A Power Thief with some skill? Yeah AH not very effective. A Condi power Necro Reaper? yeah AH also not much help. You need to rely on your skill with the class in these situations. You need to know how to get out of a thief’s damage spike, and how to deal with the necro’s reaper form.

sorry for the wall of text.

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Posted by: Choppy.4183

Choppy.4183

@emkelly
If the incoming damage is the same (e.g. 20k over 10s), and you live for the full 10s, what difference does it make to AH whether it’s condi or direct damage?

I’m Biff Rangoon, and I approved this message.
Ehmry Bay | Omg Brb Icecream Truck (ICEE)

(edited by Choppy.4183)