Guild Wars 2

It is just mind boggling how far apart the Devs are when it comes to balancing Power Warrior and Condi Warrior in PvE. The latest balance patch actually buffed Condi Berserker, so much so that the Phalanx Strength variant is equal to Condi Ranger in DPS and the DPS variant is top tier DPS.

Meanwhile, in the same balance patch, Power Warrior received another nerf due to the redesign of Berserker’s Power. While the new stacking mechanic makes sense, a 10 second duration without the stacks refreshing makes it impossible to maintain unless a Level 3 Burst is used, even though the change was made to encourage Warriors to use Level 1 Bursts consecutively (coinciding wit the change to Primal Bursts to only count as 1 stack). Accounting for Alacrity and weapon swap, it is only possible to maintain 3 stacks of Berserker’s Power for 1 second.

I believe their goal was pretty well stated a few times by other people in the warrior community. They’re moving to make core as viable as elite specs rather than elite specs as a pay to win mechanic. Which seems to have been the impression most players are making towards the developers.

I’m actually noticing I have other options as a vanilla warrior in WvW. In-fact anecdotally I’ve had much better luck going back to ol’ faithful disc, str, def. Dodge for days. Might for days. Ticks of health for days. Condi meta is easily countered. Switch a couple of traits and you’re good to go. Swap some weps around depending on range/melee opponent.

I’m also excited to say that I’ve found better options in PvE with zerker variations for condi/feroc mix. I believe the spellbreaker will even add more options.

Overall I’m happy to say I’m not bored with warrior anymore nor bound to elite spec. Thank you ANet for bringing me out of my warrior safe place and exploring what used to be the glory of core warrior. No sarcasm intended.

Forceful Greatsword should increase the damage about 75%!! [dunno the exact number, it’s a sarcastic hyperbole (in which…that should do the job..)]
atleast in pve (fractals and raid) the pPS is a joke right now. The changes don’t make any kind of sence.
look at qt benchmark, pPS isn’t even listed right now

Mikeskies.1536:

The latest balance patch actually buffed Condi Berserker, so much so that the Phalanx Strength variant is equal to Condi Ranger in DPS and the DPS variant is top tier DPS.

cPS is.. I can’t describe it.

oh guys, I would love to write you a wall of text what I am feeling and thinking. And I would argue in a civilized, logical and constructive way against anets decision to nerf pPS in pve, but my english is so bad, it would take hours…

jadaniel.4910:

I believe their goal was pretty well stated a few times by other people in the warrior community. They’re moving to make core as viable as elite specs rather than elite specs as a pay to win mechanic. Which seems to have been the impression most players are making towards the developers.

I’m actually noticing I have other options as a vanilla warrior in WvW. In-fact anecdotally I’ve had much better luck going back to ol’ faithful disc, str, def. Dodge for days. Might for days. Ticks of health for days. Condi meta is easily countered. Switch a couple of traits and you’re good to go. Swap some weps around depending on range/melee opponent.

I’m also excited to say that I’ve found better options in PvE with zerker variations for condi/feroc mix. I believe the spellbreaker will even add more options.

Overall I’m happy to say I’m not bored with warrior anymore nor bound to elite spec. Thank you ANet for bringing me out of my warrior safe place and exploring what used to be the glory of core warrior. No sarcasm intended.

Core warrior is better now for sure. and i do like it.

But why nerf power PS warrior more so that its completely dead? We used to have a power and condi builds for raids and fractal. Now its just condi.

Lukas.6153:

Forceful Greatsword should increase the damage about 75%!! [dunno the exact number, it’s a sarcastic hyperbole (in which…that should do the job..)]
atleast in pve (fractals and raid) the pPS is a joke right now. The changes don’t make any kind of sence.
look at qt benchmark, pPS isn’t even listed right now

Mikeskies.1536:

The latest balance patch actually buffed Condi Berserker, so much so that the Phalanx Strength variant is equal to Condi Ranger in DPS and the DPS variant is top tier DPS.

cPS is.. I can’t describe it. I am studying philosphy, all my live I am asking myself about the intentions and arguments for peoples decisions. I just can’t understand what was going on in the head from the responsible balance team developers, I just can’t

oh guys, I would love to write you a wall of text what I am feeling and thinking. And I would argue in a civilized, logical and constructive way against anets decision to nerf pPS in pve, but my english is so bad, it would take hours…

Don’t worry, I’m also on the same boat as well as some others I believe. I’m still waiting for the KEY anet employee who was responsible for the power berserker war nerf to give us a viable clear reason, as the one on the patch notes goes against their reasoning. (Aka doesn’t make any sense)

Atm, stick with core warrior for power builds. I, myself have taken other player’s idea of dual wield axe combined with qT’s mace/shield strategy for break bars, and using peak strength’s trait and bull rush for increase efficiency on breaking cc bar.

Don’t get me wrong… I still miss berserker warrior… i’m currently contemplating to switching over to a condi-war, but I need to see what spellbreaker can do and after it launch… i’m sure that same anet employee will do “balance” to it.

Also, Greatsword auto attacks need a 20% damage increase, to be on par with Hammer autos…

Mikeskies.1536:

Also, Greatsword auto attacks need a 20% damage increase, to be on par with Hammer autos…

Gs dps is already better than hammer tho…. Why would you only look at autoattacks?

Choppy.4183:

Mikeskies.1536:

Also, Greatsword auto attacks need a 20% damage increase, to be on par with Hammer autos…

Gs dps is already better than hammer tho…. Why would you only look at autoattacks?

I still would love to see a buff or change to 100b.. this skill.. ugh soooo old!!! Just gives it some vuln on hit or just any tiny change juzt to make me feel better and newer :p

100blades while moving, make it happen.

That and Axe damage as well. Core axe PS now seems to be stronger but only barely. They both need a good boost.

It looks to me like they need to rearrange a lot of the traits.

felincyriac.5981:

it’s obv they just want everyone to be using viper’s stat, more expansion sales.

I have nothing against them selling their stuff, but I just do not find it funny to be a condi spammer.

nicknamenick.2437:

jadaniel.4910:

I believe their goal was pretty well stated a few times by other people in the warrior community. They’re moving to make core as viable as elite specs rather than elite specs as a pay to win mechanic. Which seems to have been the impression most players are making towards the developers.

I’m actually noticing I have other options as a vanilla warrior in WvW. In-fact anecdotally I’ve had much better luck going back to ol’ faithful disc, str, def. Dodge for days. Might for days. Ticks of health for days. Condi meta is easily countered. Switch a couple of traits and you’re good to go. Swap some weps around depending on range/melee opponent.

I’m also excited to say that I’ve found better options in PvE with zerker variations for condi/feroc mix. I believe the spellbreaker will even add more options.

Overall I’m happy to say I’m not bored with warrior anymore nor bound to elite spec. Thank you ANet for bringing me out of my warrior safe place and exploring what used to be the glory of core warrior. No sarcasm intended.

Core warrior is better now for sure. and i do like it.

But why nerf power PS warrior more so that its completely dead? We used to have a power and condi builds for raids and fractal. Now its just condi.

I’m afraid I can’t really speak to that as well as I can with WvW (roam) and what not. Warriors were better with condi in raids and fractals anyway right? At least that was my impression looking at the meta before the last patch.

I hope their idea is to spread the balance throughout all cores not just warrior. So that meta pretty much shifts to ok run whatever class, but this is the (elite) spec you need to run for it.

Though that just comes down to roles in raids and end content (assuming it’s difficult and requires co-op). These roles are pretty much defined by the users a part and the rest by design. In the end most of the metas run variations of the trinity anyway. Tank/Support(heal)/DPS. Which is ironic since ANet’s dream in the beginning. ‘Rid the world from the tyranny trinity!’ unfortunately they’ve realized this is harder than just ‘everyone fight for yourself’, and then continuously adds content that requires cooperation that more or less requires more than everyone heal yourself and do mediocre damage. So at least in the PvE realm we’re seeing them kind of roll back into the trinity since the content is basically designed for it. Annnnd this is causing issues everywhere else. lol

jadaniel.4910:

I’m afraid I can’t really speak to that as well as I can with WvW (roam) and what not. Warriors were better with condi in raids and fractals anyway right? At least that was my impression looking at the meta before the last patch.

I hope their idea is to spread the balance throughout all cores not just warrior. So that meta pretty much shifts to ok run whatever class, but this is the (elite) spec you need to run for it.

Though that just comes down to roles in raids and end content (assuming it’s difficult and requires co-op). These roles are pretty much defined by the users a part and the rest by design. In the end most of the metas run variations of the trinity anyway. Tank/Support(heal)/DPS. Which is ironic since ANet’s dream in the beginning. ‘Rid the world from the tyranny trinity!’ unfortunately they’ve realized this is harder than just ‘everyone fight for yourself’, and then continuously adds content that requires cooperation that more or less requires more than everyone heal yourself and do mediocre damage. So at least in the PvE realm we’re seeing them kind of roll back into the trinity since the content is basically designed for it. Annnnd this is causing issues everywhere else. lol

Without killing the meta mentality, its a dream, any “balance” is jut killing old meta for new ones, in other words: still 0 diversity. With the bonus of annoying the players.

We end up with thousands of options that only serve in open world.

People right here, are saying that now has “more options”, but try a raid with power warrior, will be ironized / rage by condi range, condition warriors, elementals, practically everything. Ppl will mock and jocke also Power warriors on WvW/Pve too.

ugrakarma.9416:

jadaniel.4910:

I’m afraid I can’t really speak to that as well as I can with WvW (roam) and what not. Warriors were better with condi in raids and fractals anyway right? At least that was my impression looking at the meta before the last patch.

I hope their idea is to spread the balance throughout all cores not just warrior. So that meta pretty much shifts to ok run whatever class, but this is the (elite) spec you need to run for it.

Though that just comes down to roles in raids and end content (assuming it’s difficult and requires co-op). These roles are pretty much defined by the users a part and the rest by design. In the end most of the metas run variations of the trinity anyway. Tank/Support(heal)/DPS. Which is ironic since ANet’s dream in the beginning. ‘Rid the world from the tyranny trinity!’ unfortunately they’ve realized this is harder than just ‘everyone fight for yourself’, and then continuously adds content that requires cooperation that more or less requires more than everyone heal yourself and do mediocre damage. So at least in the PvE realm we’re seeing them kind of roll back into the trinity since the content is basically designed for it. Annnnd this is causing issues everywhere else. lol

Without killing the meta mentality, its a dream, any “balance” is jut killing old meta for new ones, in other words: still 0 diversity. With the bonus of annoying the players.

We end up with thousands of options that only serve in open world.

People right here, are saying that now has “more options”, but try a raid with power warrior, will be ironized / rage by condi range, condition warriors, elementals, practically everything. Ppl will mock and jocke also Power warriors on WvW/Pve too.

The last point you made is part of what I’m saying. I’m just pointing out that their basic design flaw is trying to fight a round peg (generalized builds) into a round peg (WvW/PvP) and a square one (PvE) at the same time. Note that content isn’t exclusive to one or the other, but my point is they can’t have their cake and eat it too. Either you have mechanics specific to each different content area or you stick to one and let the other suffer until it settles down.

To sum it up what’s balanced in a raid is not in other areas. What’s balanced in PvP/WvW is not balanced in PvE. They’re going to have a hell of a time trying to find it too. The result is NaCl.

The real problem, and i have been saying this for a while now, is that trait lines are generally speaking, a complete mess with no archetype/gameplay in mind what so ever.

Take warrior. You have traits that directly impact your power based damage on at least 3 lines out of the top of my head. Why?.

STRENGTH should afect power based builds EXCLUSIVELY.
ARMS should affect conditions builds EXCLUSIVELY.
DISCIPLINE should affect NEITHER.

As it stands:
STRENGHT has a grand master that directly affects conditions builds through appliying confusion.
ARMS has several traits that affect power through crit, fury and burst crit and attack speed.
DISCIPLINE has a grand master that increases crit damage by 20%

This dessign is attrocious. You have to mix and match trait lines that might have nothing to do with your build in order to get access to traits that should be focused on a single line.

Lines should define AND encapsulate bonuses as to not overlap with each other and offer on the same column 3 variants of the same “bonus/utility”.

For instance you would have to choose betwin a grand master in STRENGTH.
- 30% damage for your self for 10seconds every 20seconds. (burst/pvp)
- 10% damage for your self for 10seconds every 10seconds. (dps/general)
- 5% damage for your group sustainable. (raid/wvw)

Apolo.5942:

The real problem, and i have been saying this for a while now, is that trait lines are generally speaking, a complete mess with no archetype/gameplay in mind what so ever.

Take warrior. You have traits that directly impact your power based damage on at least 3 lines out of the top of my head. Why?.

STRENGTH should afect power based builds EXCLUSIVELY.
ARMS should affect conditions builds EXCLUSIVELY.
DISCIPLINE should affect NEITHER.

As it stands:
STRENGHT has a grand master that directly affects conditions builds through appliying confusion.
ARMS has several traits that affect power through crit, fury and burst crit and attack speed.
DISCIPLINE has a grand master that increases crit damage by 20%

This dessign is attrocious. You have to mix and match trait lines that might have nothing to do with your build in order to get access to traits that should be focused on a single line.

Lines should define AND encapsulate bonuses as to not overlap with each other and offer on the same column 3 variants of the same “bonus/utility”.

For instance you would have to choose betwin a grand master in STRENGTH.
- 30% damage for your self for 10seconds every 20seconds. (burst/pvp)
- 10% damage for your self for 10seconds every 10seconds. (dps/general)
- 5% damage for your group sustainable. (raid/wvw)

I disagree, this favors the meta mentality where this is the clear single functional build for mode A, B, or C. Further, it perpetuates the “you nuked this line that was essential to this clear single build” and then we get threads like this that can’t see past the meta ultra optimization mentality that really constitutes but a fraction of the total community.

I’m by no means saying that they’re doing an ideal job of it, but the idea is that you can find synergy across multiple trait lines to put together a functional build. By allowing the synergy across multiple trait lines + multiple weapon combinations + multiple utility combinations + gear stats + runes + sigils + food/wrench you get what I believe they’ve sold from the beginning – diversity, flavor, endless options (even if they aren’t all “meta”). Build wars if you will.

You should have to choose your traits wisely, not commit to an entire trait line based solely on the preferred damage mode.

I believe that each trait line should be able to hold its own ground by itself. No line should be a must pick at all.
Elite specializeation should also mesh with every traitline also, and as elites it should do what it already does, change the overall feeling of the class without becoming the must pick.

Tinnel.4369:

I’m by no means saying that they’re doing an ideal job of it, but the idea is that you can find synergy across multiple trait lines to put together a functional build. By allowing the synergy across multiple trait lines + multiple weapon combinations + multiple utility combinations + gear stats + runes + sigils + food/wrench you get what I believe they’ve sold from the beginning – diversity, flavor, endless options (even if they aren’t all “meta”). Build wars if you will.

You should have to choose your traits wisely, not commit to an entire trait line based solely on the preferred damage mode.

This is a BS argument, if you can find synergies, then you can find the optimal choice for what you want to run, it makes no difference what so ever if they are in a single line that is easier to balance and makes much more sense over all or 3 spread around that force you to run them because they are the optimal choice but make no sense what so ever.

Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485:

I believe that each trait line should be able to hold its own ground by itself. No line should be a must pick at all.
Elite specializeation should also mesh with every traitline also, and as elites it should do what it already does, change the overall feeling of the class without becoming the must pick.

Something like this?
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/A-Better-Approach-to-Trait-Organization/first#post5744485

Apolo.5942:

Tinnel.4369:

I’m by no means saying that they’re doing an ideal job of it, but the idea is that you can find synergy across multiple trait lines to put together a functional build. By allowing the synergy across multiple trait lines + multiple weapon combinations + multiple utility combinations + gear stats + runes + sigils + food/wrench you get what I believe they’ve sold from the beginning – diversity, flavor, endless options (even if they aren’t all “meta”). Build wars if you will.

You should have to choose your traits wisely, not commit to an entire trait line based solely on the preferred damage mode.

This is a BS argument, if you can find synergies, then you can find the optimal choice for what you want to run, it makes no difference what so ever if they are in a single line that is easier to balance and makes much more sense over all or 3 spread around that force you to run them because they are the optimal choice but make no sense what so ever.

Not really following this at all. They don’t magically become easier to balance by virtue of being in the same line. What does “force you to run them because they are optimal choice but make no sense whatsoever.” mean? How is it the optimal choice and make no sense whatsoever concomitantly?

I agree that there’s the occasional, “I want these two traits, but to get them I have to take an unfavorable trait to my build in the first tier.” I don’t see how you completely eliminate that possibility for everyone given the endless build possibilities based on all the combinable factors previously mentioned (“optimal” is an irrelevant argument here) simply by stacking them in one tree. Stacking them only favors shrinking of build diversity towards an easy tell me what’s optimal to win mentality.

You don’t just simply have power. You have power weapons, power utilities, power builds from raw power, crit builds, crit power builds, etc. How do you propose you cram all of that into one tree without severely limiting build diversity?

What if I want a hybrid damage build with defensive abilities focused around two specific weapons? Can you detail how you get that out of focused trait lines?

Choppy.4183:

Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485:

I believe that each trait line should be able to hold its own ground by itself. No line should be a must pick at all.
Elite specializeation should also mesh with every traitline also, and as elites it should do what it already does, change the overall feeling of the class without becoming the must pick.

Something like this?
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/A-Better-Approach-to-Trait-Organization/first#post5744485

not necessarily , but sure i guess

Hello ArenaNet, would someone responsible for the Primal Burst change like to provide the thought process behind it?

Maybe summoning Anet is like summing Beetlejuice you gotta say the name 3×... ArenaNet, ArenaNet, ArenaNet.

Berserk should obviously count as a T3 burst/ it takes the same time to build up, & is as skillfull as shooting longbow f1/ can’t see an issue w having it proc the same effects.

seems the best way to get around this issue/ & if we dont get a patch we will all be forced into spellbreaker for pvp/ fml

yeah and dont give us the SB is for power Berserker is condi.. who the FOOK thought of that kitten.

here comes the berserker wearing his decked out full heavy plate looking kitten and kitten. he screams with all his might and rage turning fiery red in pure chaos and adrenaline, he then… takes out his bow and shoot from range pew pew.. HUWAAAAAAT?!

kitten???

Cross.3482:

yeah and dont give us the SB is for power Berserker is condi.. who the FOOK thought of that kitten.

here comes the berserker wearing his decked out full heavy plate looking kitten and kitten. he screams with all his might and rage turning fiery red in pure chaos and adrenaline, he then… takes out his bow and shoot from range pew pew.. HUWAAAAAAT?!

kitten???

I tend to agree. I like the idea of Condi Warrior but was never a HUGE fan of Longbow as their best/main weapon (in PvE; for Primal Burst).

Hey I Just met you,

and this is Crazy,

Berserk Elite specs useless,

2 bar primal burst maybeee

Cross.3482:

yeah and dont give us the SB is for power Berserker is condi.. who the FOOK thought of that kitten.

here comes the berserker wearing his decked out full heavy plate looking kitten and kitten. he screams with all his might and rage turning fiery red in pure chaos and adrenaline, he then… takes out his bow and shoot from range pew pew.. HUWAAAAAAT?!

kitten???

soon you go dagger/dagger.. think about that.. warriors and daggers..

Warriors use greatswords, hammers, axes!! but nope full heavy armor using a dagger..

a.k.a a fat heavy thief without stealth

nicknamenick.2437:

Cross.3482:

yeah and dont give us the SB is for power Berserker is condi.. who the FOOK thought of that kitten.

here comes the berserker wearing his decked out full heavy plate looking kitten and kitten. he screams with all his might and rage turning fiery red in pure chaos and adrenaline, he then… takes out his bow and shoot from range pew pew.. HUWAAAAAAT?!

kitten???

soon you go dagger/dagger.. think about that.. warriors and daggers..

Warriors use greatswords, hammers, axes!! but nope full heavy armor using a dagger..

a.k.a a fat heavy thief without stealth

Sounds like my regular Norn thief…I suck at stealth.

ARENA NET!!! statement please!!! … -.- someone home?!

Soooooooo we got what we already had completely stripped, and this was after anet had to give berserker CPR to make it work in both PVE and a massive rework to allow it to survive in PVP…

This was when it was first introduced, berserker was bad… pretty bad, so now they gave us a huge Nerf with a new Elite that’s complete garbage.

Where do we go from there? I mean we could all stay with our condi berserker and call it a day.. but then that’ll get nerfed too eventually.

I wish they’d stop making us player how ever they feel we should be playing..

That Berserker nerf was a hit in the gut, but what i think is even worse, is that almost all of the primal burst skills will not be used anymore.

For Raids and Fractals there is sword and bow and maybe greatsword, but apart from some open world players we won’t see the others anymore, because Berserker sucks now in pvp and wvw (even more than before).

It’s a shame really, that we are stuck with the old (even tier 1) bursts again with SB. They are slow and clunky. The primal burst for gun didn’t feel like garbage. Just compare the standart version to the new thief elite. It’s just so sad.

And SB doesn’t even seem to be that good in pvp. Try to kill a Deadeye with SB, he will kite you to death and Deadeye is not even a good pvp specialisation….

Ferus.3165:

That Berserker nerf was a hit in the gut, but what i think is even worse, is that almost all of the primal burst skills will not be used anymore.

For Raids and Fractals there is sword and bow and maybe greatsword, but apart from some open world players we won’t see the others anymore, because Berserker sucks now in pvp and wvw (even more than before).

It’s a shame really, that we are stuck with the old (even tier 1) bursts again with SB. They are slow and clunky. The primal burst for gun didn’t feel like garbage. Just compare the standart version to the new thief elite. It’s just so sad.

And SB doesn’t even seem to be that good in pvp. Try to kill a Deadeye with SB, he will kite you to death and Deadeye is not even a good pvp specialisation….

Deadeye was tbh the least of my worries,tether and the elite works fine vs them + dagger 5 reflecting will mess them up aswell.My biggest issue however was fighting condi spammers in wvw,its impossible to cleanse yourself properly and the added resist isnt helping much if it ticks beyond it.If we would be able to burst 3 bars on this before the nerf the spec would be so much better overall.

Warrior main since betas here.

This is a deserved balancing of Berserker warrior. Base warrior SHOULD get 3 stacks of healing when using a burst as he has one chance and then must build adrenaline again. Berserker warrior builds adrenaline SUPER fast in zerker mode. It makes perfect sense that it shouldn’t get 3 stacks every burst.

If you’re a good warrior you can land your bursts and get your 3 stacks in a couple seconds.

This also made base warrior completely USELESS. It’s now more balanced and makes base warrior viable again.

L2P issue.

EvilSardine.9635:

Warrior main since betas here.

This is a deserved balancing of Berserker warrior. Base warrior SHOULD get 3 stacks of healing when using a burst as he has one chance and then must build adrenaline again. Berserker warrior builds adrenaline SUPER fast in zerker mode. It makes perfect sense that it shouldn’t get 3 stacks every burst.

If you’re a good warrior you can land your bursts and get your 3 stacks in a couple seconds.

This also made base warrior completely USELESS. It’s now more balanced and makes base warrior viable again.

L2P issue.

bruh pls
l2p issue:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
can you guys pls make a differance between pvp/wvw and pve?!!!!!
what exactly do i care about healing in raids or fractals, when I’ve got a druid?!!
the nerf from may and august in pve is complet unnecessary.
The point is, that you just can’t balance all existing and all up coming classes and specialisations in every game mode in a perfect way! But there is a difference in balancing a new spec and just let the status quo (which is nearly balanced) as it is.
So you’ve got the pPS and cPS and the cPS is more useful in most situations. You can clear orbs (gorse, math.etc..) can dmg at distance (MO; Deimos). cPS deals more damage, is more usful overall and you nerf pPS and buff cPS?!! kind of sence anywhere?
well, now there will be people saying: warri cDPS so high and cPS so strong and important, what are you warrior guys complaining about?
I say: dude it is not my (our) fault, that warrior is important in every pve scenario. But just because it is and you have the opportunity to choose between pPS and cPS there is no reason to change the status quo and nerf the warrior (pPS in pve) so other classes feel more treat fairly?? this is a communism argument there are people, who are in a better situation, so let us all be in the same bad spot, so that is it fair!! kidding me?!!
the pPS nerf in PVE isn’t helping ANY other spec to be in a better spot. In fractals you still need a c PS and in raids you still need 2 c PS! Anet just eliminated the opportunity to choose between pPS and cPS for the players. They just destroyed the build diversity. I can only speak for pve.
(we the pPS pve fans, are not blaming anet, we are just pointing out our thoughts and are waiting for a statement or an buff fix)
But pls, for the clarity and for the favour of anet devs, can you guys point out in your opinion, if you are talking about pvp,wvw or pve and do not generalize?

sorry for bad english

have a nice day! @all

CrashTheGrey.1492:

…clear evidence that power (and even condi) berserker was already completely useless at high level play. I mean it hasn’t been used successfully in any tournaments in months

This isn’t a good measure of the class as a whole, and it’s not unusual for buffs and nerfs to be needed simultaneously.

Berserker (like core warrior, but with “moar powah”) had a relatively low skill floor, allowing people with limited skill to be effective with, and even carried by, the class for the majority of play.

It also has a relatively low skill ceiling, which means the class has less to offer at higher skill play, like driving a street level car in a race against people in higher performance machines.

Most people don’t play at the top tier level of play, so the absence of warrior from that level isn’t a good indication that a nerf isn’t warranted.

Berserker hard carried a lot of sloppy play before these last two rounds of nerfs. There’s still room for fine tuning, to make it more fluid and have a unique role, but nothing especially significant.

Note: The above is mostly in regard to wvw and pvp. In truth, I don’t understand why there’s so much pressure to be “optimal” in pve from a damage/support perspective. So, given that I don’t get that, the above may or may not apply to pve.

Choppy.4183:

CrashTheGrey.1492:

…clear evidence that power (and even condi) berserker was already completely useless at high level play. I mean it hasn’t been used successfully in any tournaments in months

This isn’t a good measure of the class as a whole, and it’s not unusual for buffs and nerfs to be needed simultaneously.

Berserker (like core warrior, but with “moar powah”) had a relatively low skill floor, allowing people with limited skill to be effective with, and even carried by, the class for the majority of play. This is pure speculation, unlike team rosters. I can agree that, along with many other braindead specs from HoT creep, the ins and outs of many classes with passive procs can carry at lower levels. I won’t throw warrior under the bus individually here, how is that logically explaining this nerf where so many other passive elements exist across other classes? It just doesn’t.

It also has a relatively low skill ceiling, which means the class has less to offer at higher skill play, like driving a street level car in a race against people in higher performance machines.

Most people don’t play at the top tier level of play, so the absence of warrior from that level isn’t a good indication that a nerf isn’t warranted.

Berserker hard carried a lot of sloppy play before these last two rounds of nerfs. There’s still room for fine tuning, to make it more fluid and have a unique role, but nothing especially significant.

Note: The above is mostly in regard to wvw and pvp. In truth, I don’t understand why there’s so much pressure to be “optimal” in pve from a damage/support perspective. So, given that I don’t get that, the above may or may not apply to pve.

The skill floor being low is nothing unique to warrior. DragonHunter? Druid? Any bunker? Condi Chrono?

I can braindead hard carry on Condi Chrono infinitely easier than on warrior. I can hop on a DH and win matchups at low levels without any real comprehension. Just burst damage and blocks and passive procs.

The difference between warrior getting nerfed is it didn’t have a chance to begin with.

Gonna cherry pick your reasoning as you did with mine:

“Most people don’t play at the top tier level of play, so the absence of warrior from that level isn’t a good indication that a nerf isn’t warranted. "

You balance from the ceiling, not the floor. Any successful competitive environment does this. Why get good at a class when it’s balanced for people that are bad at it? Why bother playing competitive modes at all? Where is the sense of progression and reward for being better at something than you were before? Oh wait, it’s almost as if the across the board power creep of HoT creating easier gameplay robbed the game of viability in a competitive sense!

Your argument falls through in that ArenaNet wasn’t intelligent enough to bring in higher skill ceiling mechanics to allow for the very, very hard 66% on-trait nerf found in Primal Burst.

They did nothing to create better gameplay for berserker, they did nothing to properly communicate because its honestly embarrassing to admit a primary function of a spec needed such a massive nerf and has been in place for so long, and it’s a month before an expansion…..

It’s a bad joke. If this balance team thought things through, they wouldn’t have levied it without compensating mechanics to promote more skilled gameplay. As it stands, the berserker spec is blatantly outshadowed by the strength tree for power. Going into berserk mode is a bad decision for the player, and fails in its original intent and feel.

The punchline is nothing you take on warrior is truly viable from a competitive sense. Not Core, not Zerk, probably not even Spellbreaker, but we’ll see.

@Crash
I don’t think either if us are cherry picking, rather we disagree with specific aspects of each other’s positions. We’ve just highlighted those aspects.

That said, I disagree with the notion of balancing from the ceiling. Anet is balancing different priorities across different game modes at different levels of play with each class. It seems to me that they’re better off balancing around where the majority of users are interacting with their game, making allowances for the particularities of each game mode. Given that it doesn’t follow that top tier competitive balance necessarily leads to balance at lower levels in competitive and non-competitive play, balancing according to the 80-20 rule makes more sense.

I also don’t think that Anet not elevating the warrior skill ceiling has any bearing on my argument, because my argument was merely that an aspect of one small area of the game (low warrior representation at high level tournament play) has little relevance to whether a game-wide change makes sense. It’s a data point, sure, but it’s not a litmus test.

Finally, I don’t disagree that other classes also have low skill floors, especially since HoT. I’ve posted elsewhere about low risk:high reward mechanics of other classes, but it’s somewhat irrelevant to the point.

I’d really think that something like a 2 bar burst equivalent might be fair. And if they really don’t want berserker to have that sustain, maybe they adjust the damage for all primal bursts to at least make it chunk real hard.

I say this because I don’t think they have the capacity/resources to overhaul this elite spec. At very least, they could provide a trade off. I would consider it fair if going berserk felt like it accomplished something unique, and thematic.

- Healing for a percentage of Damage inflicted while in Berserk mode.
- Big Ole Flat Percentage of Damage in Berserk mode
- Longer quickness and superspeed in Berserk mode?
- Unblockables?
- Anything that at least makes a person pause before taking strength instead.

To me it seems they wanted to get away from crazy abundant sustain, but Zerker needs to feel like its got real gusto behind it. It’s so devoid of “Umph” and statistically inferior.

Choppy.4183:

@Crash
I don’t think either if us are cherry picking, rather we disagree with specific aspects of each other’s positions. We’ve just highlighted those aspects.

That said, I disagree with the notion of balancing from the ceiling. Anet is balancing different priorities across different game modes at different levels of play with each class. It seems to me that they’re better off balancing around where the majority of users are interacting with their game, making allowances for the particularities of each game mode. Given that it doesn’t follow that top tier competitive balance necessarily leads to balance at lower levels in competitive and non-competitive play, balancing according to the 80-20 rule makes more sense.

I also don’t think that Anet not elevating the warrior skill ceiling has any bearing on my argument, because my argument was merely that an aspect of one small area of the game (low warrior representation at high level tournament play) has little relevance to whether a game-wide change makes sense. It’s a data point, sure, but it’s not a litmus test.

Finally, I don’t disagree that other classes also have low skill floors, especially since HoT. I’ve posted elsewhere about low risk:high reward mechanics of other classes, but it’s somewhat irrelevant to the point.

Successful mobas definitely balance from a ceiling perspective. Which isn’t gw2 though.

Ramoth.9064:

Successful mobas definitely balance from a ceiling perspective. Which isn’t gw2 though.

How would balancing at the ceiling, specifically as it relates to top tier pvp, lead to balance in pve (which appears to be where most of the complaints are coming from)?

Moreover, how would that approach play out in Wvw from roaming to zerg play?

Finally, how would you do it for even just pvp? You’d have to balance according to roles. Is hat even what people want? I doubt it.

I was hoping for some other traits to move around. Mainly Burning Arrows to leave Tactics and enter Arms for sword/longbow to be in the same (condi) line.

Actually the changes to Tactics minors were quite interesting. The flat damage reduction while rezzing and the heal aoe on rez make the line even more group friendly than ever. Perhps if forceful greatsword were in Tactics at master level and the banner trait were at adept you could have the core of a party friendly greatsword/banner warrior in a single line.

Still, my dream is to get Burning Arrows into an Arms/Defense/Berserker setup for the ultimate heavy-duty conditions beast ;o)

Choppy.4183:

Ramoth.9064:

Successful mobas definitely balance from a ceiling perspective. Which isn’t gw2 though.

How would balancing at the ceiling, specifically as it relates to top tier pvp, lead to balance in pve (which appears to be where most of the complaints are coming from)?

Moreover, how would that approach play out in Wvw from roaming to zerg play?

Finally, how would you do it for even just pvp? You’d have to balance according to roles. Is hat even what people want? I doubt it.

I’ve propagated for there to be infrastructure in pvp for class roles to be acknowledgable before, i think the problem with PvP lies with the fact that no one knows what their teammates are doing or capable of, unless its at high level play with comms. The class roles don’t need to be something that affects gameplay, rather, it needs to be a form of visual communication.

I don’t see a problem with balancing at ceiling because everyone is playing with the same skills anyways. And skills will need to be split so I don’t see this being an issue for wvw or pve.

Well anyways, I’ve argued the problem both ways before, my original post wasn’t specifically arguing for ceiling based balancing, just saying that other mobas do.

All-in-all i think the lack of infrastructure is holding gw2 pvp back, not the balancing.

Choppy.4183:

Ramoth.9064:

Successful mobas definitely balance from a ceiling perspective. Which isn’t gw2 though.

How would balancing at the ceiling, specifically as it relates to top tier pvp, lead to balance in pve (which appears to be where most of the complaints are coming from)?

Moreover, how would that approach play out in Wvw from roaming to zerg play?

Finally, how would you do it for even just pvp? You’d have to balance according to roles. Is hat even what people want? I doubt it.

Looking through the posts, I think most of the complaints point to PvP/WvW. Definitely a good mix at least.

Let’s be more specific about what balancing from the ceiling means. Mechanics.

If we set up a class so that it has access to a large amount of invuln, evades, blocks, and we make those so that a mid or lower player can very easily spam them without real consequence… (sounds like HoT power creep right? Notice the competitive fall off tying into this)?

This is the exact point in which people feel that their game play lacks gravity, consequence, and fun. It lasks risk, and it lacks reward.

When strong things, especially invulnerabilities, are balanced around the “middle”, that implies that these skills have strong (or too strong) consequences in the hands of 50% of the player base, with the better players suffering from your aforementioned low skill ceilings…

The situations arise where people simply going through rotations can sustain themselves well enough that intelligible counter play is incredibly weakened. Such a large range of skilled players are above that “middle” point and the game in general feels like a spam fest.

When you implement strong damage, strong sustain, and you make those obtainable at a much higher level of skill, lets say optimum usage requiring mechanical skill in the top 10%, everyone below those levels starts to feel the weight of errors, and the success in thought out play.

Ask yourself, where you honestly think this game is balanced about right now, and then realize how dead its competitive scene is.

I think, in a small way, Anet realizes this and wants to fix it. But be it lack of resources or execution, they levied changes like berserkers primal burst that simply made its usage significantly worse. It didn’t ask any real questions, it just said “this is strong and easy, kill it.”

ArenaNet needs to keep finding that better sweet spot where they don’t alienate it’s base, but they give people a reason to improve and keep playing.

Berserker as it stands is drastically inferior for anyone running Power in a PvP game mode of any sort. This change occurred with no consideration to Warrior and all its included specs already struggling among skilled players. Berserker cannot be taken with spellbreaker and thus it would seem that while maybe tradeoff was the intention, there’s not even a shred of competition for berserker against core or SB.

Anet, you do not need the power creep, spell breaker can stand on its own, you do not need the Berserker gutted to sell it.

Apparently spellbreaker is getting a nerf.

But the sad truth is…Anet is not even stating their own reasons for the nerf. I know it’s not like their obligation to do so…but still, it kinda hurts that the only thing some people like me can think of is “why Anet”.

Warrior having a lot of access to invulnerability, is a MYTH.

Warrior has access to 3s on shield, instances of 2s through Endure pain and 2s through Defense trait line.

It is very comparable to the BS amount of doge from Thief, Blocks from Engineer (hammer, shield and wrench kit), mesmer shield and so on.

We lack gap mobility and damage compared to more offensive classes, the trade of is healing, as simple as that.

Mthe mystery.4615:

Apparently spellbreaker is getting a nerf.

That spec was already garbage to begin with.. the dagger animations we’re slow.. it’s utilities we’re gimmicky at best

a nerf to anything in there would just guarantee no one uses this thing ever.

Apolo.5942:

Warrior having a lot of access to invulnerability, is a MYTH.

Warrior has access to 3s on shield, instances of 2s through Endure pain and 2s through Defense trait line.

It is very comparable to the BS amount of doge from Thief, Blocks from Engineer (hammer, shield and wrench kit), mesmer shield and so on.

We lack gap mobility and damage compared to more offensive classes, the trade of is healing, as simple as that.

Assuming you’re seeking to be taken seriously by ANet you should at least attempt to be correct.