“Just press 2 to win all the dps was us cuz we’re a
warrior and we’re the best class” Eugene
warrior and we’re the best class” Eugene
(edited by Warlord.9074)
Meta Warrior without healing signet
I honestly feel that 80% of the complaints regarding HS are because of condi warriors and LB. I know I’m going to rile up some folks but at least hear me out and keep in mind this is in regard to sPvP only. The basic premise of buffing HS in the first place was to help add some sustain to the Warrior class which it desperately needed…..especially when it was focused on power builds. With a classic zerker build, or even a PTV build, you are dependent upon being in your opponents face as much as possible to deal damage. Playing too defensively only leads to less damage output and often more damaged received. Without HS power based warriors, in my opinion, take a rather significant nerf……In fact the expected nerf to HS will have a much bigger impact on them then it will to condi/LB warriors.
Why? Because conditions and LB allow you to apply a good deal of condition damage extremely easily and you can play defensively while they tick away doing significant damage the whole time. You have essentially given a class that depends on high armor and HP pool access to tons of condition damage and great sustain. You easily can go with a heavy emphasis on Toughness and Vitality with Condition Damage as the easy achieved cherry on top. Perhaps against classes with tons of condition removal this setup might not be as successful but against those with even “good” amounts of removal it ends up not being enough.
The difference between warriors who are running LB and/or condition builds versus those who don’t is rather severe. It is almost like two entirely different classes if you ask me. I’ve fought plenty of other warriors and those that are running without a LB and/or condi builds….well lets just say that HS really is not a big deal. Fighting the ones that run LB and/or condi builds is much different. They have such an easy time of applying and maintaining conditions that even if you start to get an upperhand on them they can back off and kite around while bleeds or torment do their thing…..all the while that HS is just ticking. It’s the ability to still do damage while avoiding any that is a problem.
Can other classes do this? Yea they can but they also are not running around in heavy armor with Toughness through the roof and a massive HP pool. When a guy in pajamas is applying dots and kiting me around its one thing…..when Arnold Schwarzenegger is doing it its another. Yes, I play warrior and yes I’m concerned with my class. Proposed changes to HS along with a potential nerf to +crit damage has a much more significant impact to power warrior builds and if anything are going to promote even more condi/LB warriors in sPvP…..and that is not a good thing!
I’m completely prepared for flames but I would simply ask if you could keep them classy!
condi build warriors are pretty OP in 1v1, when you start putting things into perspective like their uptime on torment, the amount of bleeds they can stack on one target and also runes such as the sigil of tormenting, sigil of doom can give them the variety of conditions that they need. Maybe add in the perplexity runes for more cheese.
If you add that with a shout build, their healing can be a bit absurd. And they will be impossible to take down almost. The only power builds that can take down this build is probably thieves (though they will have a really tough time managing the condis) or another warrior.
Condition builds like thieves may be able to take it down and possibly Necros, and PU Mesmers. But they can of course just run away if things aren’t going well, or kite around and shout to full HP.
Healing Signet does need to be toned down a tad no doubt, however it can make condi builds really over the top.
However though, condi warriors are pretty useless once you start getting into 3v3’s.
pretty much, healing signet made warrior op, and every other heals sucks and will make most builds up, except the builds which getting complained the most (hambow and condi, but condi war serves nothing good in tpvp, except yoloq)
mending needs to be 15 seconds CD and healing surge just sucks, why would you punish people for using class mechanic.
(edited by Simon.3794)
I’ll say it once and I’ll say it 1,000 times.
Healing Signet feels more powerful than it really is because right not condi is still very prominent. With access to so much condi removal the amount of damage builds that focus on it is made pitiful. However, builds like Pistol Whip spam and several other power-based builds easily overcome the healing especially if they bring even a little bit of poison. I’m starting to see more and more of these builds in TPvP, seems people finally started to try and build counters instead of just demanding ANet do something about it.
Hopefully the balance team realizes this and doesn’t go any further than the 8% nerf they have planned. Also another way to nerf Warriors would be to simply nerf Lyssa runes. I’ve tried not running with them and it makes things significantly more difficult. Maybe just give Lyssa all the boons on cleanse and a useless set like Fighter the cleanse.
Just an angry old man…
Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)
Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)
I honestly feel that 80% of the complaints regarding HS are because of condi warriors and LB. I know I’m going to rile up some folks but at least hear me out and keep in mind this is in regard to sPvP only. The basic premise of buffing HS in the first place was to help add some sustain to the Warrior class which it desperately needed…..especially when it was focused on power builds. With a classic zerker build, or even a PTV build, you are dependent upon being in your opponents face as much as possible to deal damage. Playing too defensively only leads to less damage output and often more damaged received. Without HS power based warriors, in my opinion, take a rather significant nerf……In fact the expected nerf to HS will have a much bigger impact on them then it will to condi/LB warriors.
Why? Because conditions and LB allow you to apply a good deal of condition damage extremely easily and you can play defensively while they tick away doing significant damage the whole time. You have essentially given a class that depends on high armor and HP pool access to tons of condition damage and great sustain. You easily can go with a heavy emphasis on Toughness and Vitality with Condition Damage as the easy achieved cherry on top. Perhaps against classes with tons of condition removal this setup might not be as successful but against those with even “good” amounts of removal it ends up not being enough.
The difference between warriors who are running LB and/or condition builds versus those who don’t is rather severe. It is almost like two entirely different classes if you ask me. I’ve fought plenty of other warriors and those that are running without a LB and/or condi builds….well lets just say that HS really is not a big deal. Fighting the ones that run LB and/or condi builds is much different. They have such an easy time of applying and maintaining conditions that even if you start to get an upperhand on them they can back off and kite around while bleeds or torment do their thing…..all the while that HS is just ticking. It’s the ability to still do damage while avoiding any that is a problem.
Can other classes do this? Yea they can but they also are not running around in heavy armor with Toughness through the roof and a massive HP pool. When a guy in pajamas is applying dots and kiting me around its one thing…..when Arnold Schwarzenegger is doing it its another. Yes, I play warrior and yes I’m concerned with my class. Proposed changes to HS along with a potential nerf to +crit damage has a much more significant impact to power warrior builds and if anything are going to promote even more condi/LB warriors in sPvP…..and that is not a good thing!
I’m completely prepared for flames but I would simply ask if you could keep them classy!
150% this. As a Warrior running GS/Axe, I end up dying pretty frequently even with partial Knight gear, Malandru Runes, and HS against someone who knows what they’re doing (AS IT SHOULD BE).
If there is a problem with a particular build, then balance out that build. Don’t nerf the class as a whole because one build is too efficient.
Agree with Blackjack.2083. Anyone who is complaining about warriors and HS should run a non condi warrior build and go up against engineer, mesmer and necro (or even thief/elementalist in some cases). I hope the developers are testing this thoroughly against good players with half a brain who can kite.
What should be nerfed is the crazy reapplying torment stacks from off hand sword. If this was nerfed it would be much easier to cleanse the conditions from a warrior as we would only be talking about bleed/fire.
(edited by Mgorem.1038)
I dont get you guys, condi warriors began to spread only few month ago, some time after the hammer nerf. Complains about HS were long b4 that and they all talked about hammerbow.
I think the correct statement is HS is only not good on burst zerk warrior – mainly axe+gs builds.
Every other build, either cond, or stun: hambow and gs/mace_shield., would still use it.
Dry Leaves
You guys keep talking like its only a couple skills that are affecting the general warrior “opness”. When it’s really the base and/or easy access to high damage, healing, cc, cleanse, health/toughness, and invuls. You can play a warrior that doesn’t have cleansing ire but then has a 8 sec immunity to cond/20+ secs stability with a bunch of hard cc and damage and it doesn’t matter you’re done. Or a warrior with insane regen and absolutely debilitating soft cc and cond application. With many builds you can completely stack power and have moderate crit without putting anything into precision. Hell most of the warriors hard cc comes with good damage where with other classes’ skills the cc is lackluster AND the damage is terrible. All this is whats causing the problem.
HS are good only to get adrenaline. The heal itself is weak, and 30s CD do not compensates.
Mending is in the same way. Better use Cleansing Ire or Signet of Stamina than this skill.
The biggest “issue” in regards to balance currently in GW2 ends up coming back to conditions. I’m not going to say that condition damage alone is to blame but rather the combination of many different dynamics that are. Anyone who has played the game back when warriors were the bottom feeders of pvp realizes, right or wrong, why the current changes to warriors were made. It was to improve our sustainability and resistance to slows.
They did help us tremendously, anyone who doubts that is mistaken. My point is that in pvp these changes, combined with outrageously powerful longbow and a condition build, has made the cries for warrior nerfs deafening. The combination of HS, cleansing ire, ease of building a super tanky +condition damage build, best weapon overall out of any class in LB, off hand torment, and ability to play defensively while still passively dishing out damage is too much.
It does not take a rocket scientist to realize that giving ANY class with a huge HP pool and heavy armor access to great condition damage and passive healing along with all the other buffs warriors got is a terrible idea. The very premise of abilities like Dogged March, Beserker Stance, changes to HS, and Cleansing Ire was for power based melee warriors. Guys who were in the very front, or middle, of a fray who did not have easy access to the types of sustain that other classes get. A power based warrior without these tools is put right back to where he used to be….the absolute bottom of the food chain as overwhelmingly voted on by GW2 players in pvp.
Now you take all of these changes and combine them on a warrior who is setup for condition damage and what do you get? You get a class that can deal an absolute obscene amount of damage via conditions while being able to build and gear on survivability. I’m sorry but as a warrior let me be the first to say it’s just wrong. Simple logic dictates that the abilities they provided to help sustain the melee power based class were never intended for the condition warrior. As I have said before, the differences in these two builds essentially are two totally different classes.
Another point of contention I have made is longbow. How absurd is it that warrior longbow skills are about 100 times better than ranger longbow? Giving warrior fire damage, blind, longest immobilize in the game, great bleed, burst, combo field, oh and combine its F1 with cleansing Ire all on one weapon doesn’t sound a wee bit absurd to anyone else? C’mon man…..there is a reason that almost every single warrior in spvp runs it.
I’m telling you right now LB and warrior condition builds are 90% of the problem when you speak of OP warriors in pvp. You could take HS away from those setups and they are going to still be crazy effective. Torment was poorly implemented for warrior and LB needs to be completely reworked. Those are the types of things that need to be reworked for warriors…..if they are not and you nerf the sustain of warriors as a group you will simply see fewer and fewer power based and more and more condition setups.
The problem with healing singet is not any specific build its the heal itself. Compare it to any other heal in the game and its way better. Singet of restoration from ele. 200hp per cast each auto attack takes 1 second. So you have to actively cast to get half of healing singet. If ele had hs people would call it op. If guard had 400+ hps on top of thier f whatever healing and the big elite heal they would be considered op. Mesmer singet has to have 3 clones out to still get considerable less than hs. Mesmer with striaght 400 hps all the time would be op. The only comparable heal to healing singet is healing turret from engi which is also one of the reasons condi bunker decap engi is so annoying in spvp as well.
The problem with healing singet is not any specific build its the heal itself. Compare it to any other heal in the game and its way better. Singet of restoration from ele. 200hp per cast each auto attack takes 1 second. So you have to actively cast to get half of healing singet. If ele had hs people would call it op. If guard had 400+ hps on top of thier f whatever healing and the big elite heal they would be considered op. Mesmer singet has to have 3 clones out to still get considerable less than hs. Mesmer with striaght 400 hps all the time would be op. The only comparable heal to healing singet is healing turret from engi which is also one of the reasons condi bunker decap engi is so annoying in spvp as well.
I wouldn’t really compare heal turret to the heal signet as it isn’t a passive heal, and you’d have to spec pretty hard into heal power to make the full use of, where as warrior heal signet has stupid high base healing, even with no to low heal power added.
Daeaera ~ Leader of Grape Justice! [FGJ]
Warrior without healing signet is free kill in pvp dosent matter how much other defense you use they need it to be viable. HS is good on all war builds in pvp.
Without it they are the worst on the team.
Warrior without healing signet is free kill in pvp dosent matter how much other defense you use they need it to be viable. HS is good on all war builds in pvp.
Without it they are the worst on the team.
Healing signet only gave us more time to stay alive in combat where people are not glass cannons. It did nothing else besides this.
Did not fixed warrior.
Did not done anything else.
We can completely live without it.
Biggest problem with healing signet: it’s boring.
Boredom, more than anything else, is killing pvp.
You will never be able to know what an engineer is going to do next…
because he doesn’t know it himself
because he doesn’t know it himself
Warrior without healing signet is free kill in pvp dosent matter how much other defense you use they need it to be viable. HS is good on all war builds in pvp.
Without it they are the worst on the team.Healing signet only gave us more time to stay alive in combat where people are not glass cannons. It did nothing else besides this.
Did not fixed warrior.
Did not done anything else.We can completely live without it.
Erm… I hope you’re not referring to PvE at all and intend to be interpreted from a PvP standpoint only because if not you’re making a fool out of yourself. Just saying.
Warrior without healing signet is free kill in pvp dosent matter how much other defense you use they need it to be viable. HS is good on all war builds in pvp.
Without it they are the worst on the team.Healing signet only gave us more time to stay alive in combat where people are not glass cannons. It did nothing else besides this.
Did not fixed warrior.
Did not done anything else.We can completely live without it.
Erm… I hope you’re not referring to PvE at all and intend to be interpreted from a PvP standpoint only because if not you’re making a fool out of yourself. Just saying.
Im refering to pvp. In pve you could just not use any utilities and still win.
Warrior without healing signet is free kill in pvp dosent matter how much other defense you use they need it to be viable. HS is good on all war builds in pvp.
Without it they are the worst on the team.Healing signet only gave us more time to stay alive in combat where people are not glass cannons. It did nothing else besides this.
Did not fixed warrior.
Did not done anything else.We can completely live without it.
Im talking about PVP thats what they balance the game around not some 2 shotting 100k hb warriors in pve.
Go and fight players rank 25+ with a warrior without hs You are going to lose.
The problem with healing singet is not any specific build its the heal itself. Compare it to any other heal in the game and its way better. Singet of restoration from ele. 200hp per cast each auto attack takes 1 second. So you have to actively cast to get half of healing singet. If ele had hs people would call it op. If guard had 400+ hps on top of thier f whatever healing and the big elite heal they would be considered op. Mesmer singet has to have 3 clones out to still get considerable less than hs. Mesmer with striaght 400 hps all the time would be op. The only comparable heal to healing singet is healing turret from engi which is also one of the reasons condi bunker decap engi is so annoying in spvp as well.
I disagree with this unless i’ve mistaken your point?
You can’t compare one class heal to another. Mesmer with a 400hps would of course be overpowered. Because they have so much damage mitigation through clones, blink, stealth etc that aren’t available to warrior. The fact is a warrior is going to soak a lot of damage the mesmer would avoid.
Same with guardian; if you were to run an altruistic healing build with 400hps on top it would be ridiculous, you’re right. But again, warrior doesn’t have access to that kind of healing through traits. Shouts are decent but don’t come close to a guardians ability to self heal through traits.
And again with elementalist; the access to heal though their water atonement on top of self heal provides a lot of self healing; while they also have access to avoidance and damage reduction skills.
Healing signet is nothing on it’s own. If i were to stand in front of any glass class or if i were to build full glass i’d melt in seconds; . It’s when combined with certain builds that allow you to avoid damage though stun lock down or area control that it shines.
I currently run a level 80 Warrior, Mesmer, Guardian, Ranger and Thief and if any are built in the right way they become a nightmare to kill; yes, even the ranger. It’s not the heal it’s how you build around it, how you play, and how you learn to counter other classes. Nothing more.
The problem with healing singet is not any specific build its the heal itself. Compare it to any other heal in the game and its way better. Singet of restoration from ele. 200hp per cast each auto attack takes 1 second. So you have to actively cast to get half of healing singet. If ele had hs people would call it op. If guard had 400+ hps on top of thier f whatever healing and the big elite heal they would be considered op. Mesmer singet has to have 3 clones out to still get considerable less than hs. Mesmer with striaght 400 hps all the time would be op. The only comparable heal to healing singet is healing turret from engi which is also one of the reasons condi bunker decap engi is so annoying in spvp as well.
Except you are wrong in the grand scheme of things. This is why I roll my eyes at the cries for Warrior nerfs when people compared hard numbers with other classes, and forget to take into consideration the other X, Y, and Z factors as well.
Eles get a heal every time they cast a spell. Every auto attack, every ability they manually trigger, and every Arcane ability dropped WILL tick that heal. As an Ele, if you aren’t dropping some form of attack every second, you’re playing the class wrong anyways. This isn’t even taking into account the spells and passive attunement healing they get from the Water attunements (just swapping to it on certain builds heals 800 HP alone, before a spell is even cast), and the fact that Eles have lots of ranged abillities available to them. Lets not forget protection through Auras and access to blinds if you decide to go D/D. But comparing Eles to Warriors is bad anyways, because Eles are in need of a buff, while Warrior is just were it needs to be if you go anything but Ham/Bow (which ALONE needs a nerf, not anything else).
Just something to consider. Also remember that most Warriors using HS are also traited with Adrenal Health, which is its own passive healing completely separate from HS (but most people just assume its the signet itself doing all the ticks).
You can’t compare one class heal to another. Mesmer with a 400hps would of course be overpowered. Because they have so much damage mitigation through clones, blink, stealth etc that aren’t available to warrior. The fact is a warrior is going to soak a lot of damage the mesmer would avoid.
Same with guardian; if you were to run an altruistic healing build with 400hps on top it would be ridiculous, you’re right. But again, warrior doesn’t have access to that kind of healing through traits. Shouts are decent but don’t come close to a guardians ability to self heal through traits.
And again with elementalist; the access to heal though their water atonement on top of self heal provides a lot of self healing; while they also have access to avoidance and damage reduction skills.
Healing signet is nothing on it’s own. If i were to stand in front of any glass class or if i were to build full glass i’d melt in seconds; . It’s when combined with certain builds that allow you to avoid damage though stun lock down or area control that it shines.
I currently run a level 80 Warrior, Mesmer, Guardian, Ranger and Thief and if any are built in the right way they become a nightmare to kill; yes, even the ranger. It’s not the heal it’s how you build around it, how you play, and how you learn to counter other classes. Nothing more.
You get a +1 from me good sir. Well said.