Trait choices hamstrung by weapon diversity

Trait choices hamstrung by weapon diversity

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Posted by: Gerrand.3085

Gerrand.3085

I’ve been ranting for a while about how certain warrior axe traits seem to be in terrible places and how if there was one more dps oriented trait which benefited axes (which could be selected while using the other axe traits), dual axes would be viably close to other PvE weapon combinations.

Which brought me to this odd fact. Warriors have more weapon options, and thus more weapon specific traits, then any class besides guardian. These are the ratios:

Class – Weapons – singular weapon traits
Warrior – 9 – 9
Guardian – 9 – 9
Ranger – 8 – 7
Engineer – 4 – 4
Thief – 4 – 3
Elementalist – 5 – 0
Necromancer – 6 – 6
Mesmer – 7 – 7

So if you wondering why warriors have weapon traits in inconvenient places, or why there aren’t enough viable traits to pick with certain weapons, it may be that the Warrior’s extremely diverse weapon set limited the amount of other traits which could fit into the trait lines.

Excluding the pre-set minor traits, there are 9 traits to choose from in every trait line – 45 in all 5. The extra few traits that warrior dedicates to extra weapons doesn’t break the system, but I do think reduction in non-weapon-specific traits shines through.

Bit late to change, but I think the system would have been fairer if a single line of traits in every trait line had been removed and replaced with a slot which could only be filled with weapon traits (or some other weapon specific trait for those who used 2 2-handed weapons or 1 weapon like the engineer).

Or if I’ve made any dubious assumptions in this, I’m sure one of you will point it out :/

Trait choices hamstrung by weapon diversity

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Posted by: Ilias.8647

Ilias.8647

What do you mean that warrior has “trait at inconvenient places”?

A few examples:

1) Axe = mainly Strength and it can benefit from some Arms traits as well
2) Mace = mainly Defense and Strength (or condi) or Arms
3) GS = mainly Strength and some Arms traits
4) Sword = mainly Arms and some Strength traits
5) LB = mainly Tactics

List goes on… So, in order to fully spec for a weapon u can do it with 2 Specializations (the 3rd usually is Discipline). These two Specialization will let u trait at least another weapon as alternate

Currently residing on … Gandara[EU]

Trait choices hamstrung by weapon diversity

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Posted by: Gerrand.3085

Gerrand.3085

@llias: You’ve been rather vague in the nature and topic of your rebuttal.

If you read my first paragraph, you’ll see I’m focusing on Axe PvE. While the Strength and Arms trait lines should adequately cover axes, they don’t.

You get to choose 3 traits in each line. In the strength line, the only two traits which increase the effectiveness of axes are in the same trait slot. Beserker’s Power or Axe Mastery, choose one and 6 of the other 7 or at odds with the pure damage playstyle of axe.

The arms trait line looks like it should boost axe, but if you play a bezerker build (and why wouldn’t one be aiming for pure damage with axes?) Most of the traits available in arms are near redundant. If you speccing for pure damage, you have between 62%-70% crit chance (usually more), plus you probably using at least one of two utility skills which give long periods of fury (plus off axes give you fury) resulting in 82%-90% crit chance (I usually sit on above 97%). So considering you have fury and 85% crit chance, beserker’s fury and burst precision hardly provide anything at all. Signet mastery gives less to axe then any other weapon as the individual axe hits are fairly weak (and the signet of might you going to continually be proccing to keep signet mastery active will be quickly consumed and wasted on these weak axe hits). Dual wielding is necessary for axes, that said, you’ve only managed to synergise 2.5 out of six chosen traits with your axes. That is too little synergy for PvE – especially when considering the bonuses that other weapons bring over the supposed pure damage axe weapons..

Trait choices hamstrung by weapon diversity

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Posted by: Ilias.8647

Ilias.8647

Now I got what you meant @OP.

Double Axes PvE… what you can do right now is :

Strength … go 3-3-3
Arms … 1/2-1/2-3

If you are wondering why Axe/Axe isn’t as good as GS the simple answer is that A.Net made it that way!

Reason? No reason! Like they recently chose to make the gap between power build damage and condi/hybrid build damage even wider. Its just that GS design is superior to others. Should it be like that? No, definately not!!! But its how they did it and every succeful build revolves around the same 2 weapons. GS in particular… 100b damage is by far the greatest, GS has mobility and an evade (that deal lots of dmg), has a cripple skill, a rush skill and a burst skill that if traited makes all the rest even more powerful. No other weapon set packs all these.

Same goes for professions as well. Currently mesmers and thiefs have greater trait and weapon synergy. Like they were designed by another, superior, team.

In the end, what makes me not happy with GW2, is that (at least with certain professions) you can’t play as you like and be effective (i don’t say optimal). So, A.Net gives you many choices but most of them aren’t actually viable cause designers screwed trait synergy, or they screwed weapon skills… for some reason you are being led into using mainly a GS or a Hammer. Rest weapons are complimentary and/or utility.

Currently residing on … Gandara[EU]

(edited by Ilias.8647)

Trait choices hamstrung by weapon diversity

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Posted by: Dand.8231

Dand.8231

The weapon traits are just not the best design model anyway. They really DO sort of limit diversity more than they encourage it.

Here’s a better way, eliminate all weapon traits and have each trait affect a much broader playstyle.

Example
Roll the 20% cooldown into the baseline for ALL weapons that currently have a 20% trait. And roll in a few traits that the weapon basically requires to be usable. Replace these traits with traits that provide more compelling choices.

Strength Tree – Forceful Blows (Replacing Forceful Greatsword): Gain 1 stack of might per critical strike with any attack.

Strength Tree – Weapon Mastery (Replacing Axe Mastery): All attacks deal 5% more damage, and critical hits grant 1 bonus adrenaline.

Arms – Scent of Blood (Replacing Blademaster): All attacks have +20% critical chance vs bleeding foes.

Defense Tree – Sundering Blows (Master 3, Replacing Sundering Mace): Attacks cause vulnerability to foes with daze/stun/cc/etc

Tactics – Burning Arrows: Rolled into Longbow Baseline. Replace with a new trait.

Tactics – Quick Breathing: Rolled into Warhorn Baseline. Replace with a new trait.

Discipline – Crack Shot: Rolled into Rifle Baseline. Replace with new trait.

Discipline – Merciless Blows (Replacing Merciless Hammer): All attacks cause +20% damage to foes with daze/stun/cc/etc

Trait choices hamstrung by weapon diversity

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Posted by: Valik Shin.9027

Valik Shin.9027

The weapon traits are just not the best design model anyway. They really DO sort of limit diversity more than they encourage it.

Here’s a better way, eliminate all weapon traits and have each trait affect a much broader playstyle.

Example
Roll the 20% cooldown into the baseline for ALL weapons that currently have a 20% trait. And roll in a few traits that the weapon basically requires to be usable. Replace these traits with traits that provide more compelling choices.

Strength Tree – Forceful Blows (Replacing Forceful Greatsword): Gain 1 stack of might per critical strike with any attack.

Strength Tree – Weapon Mastery (Replacing Axe Mastery): All attacks deal 5% more damage, and critical hits grant 1 bonus adrenaline.

Arms – Scent of Blood (Replacing Blademaster): All attacks have +20% critical chance vs bleeding foes.

Defense Tree – Sundering Blows (Master 3, Replacing Sundering Mace): Attacks cause vulnerability to foes with daze/stun/cc/etc

Tactics – Burning Arrows: Rolled into Longbow Baseline. Replace with a new trait.

Tactics – Quick Breathing: Rolled into Warhorn Baseline. Replace with a new trait.

Discipline – Crack Shot: Rolled into Rifle Baseline. Replace with new trait.

Discipline – Merciless Blows (Replacing Merciless Hammer): All attacks cause +20% damage to foes with daze/stun/cc/etc

I actually really like this. It alwows the warrior to pick whatever weapons suits them while not making them op. The longbow trait is really only good in hybrid and condi builds. Crackshot is meh at best do the rifle lack of utility so that baseline is ok. The only stun weapons are hammer , shield and mace so u still have to swap weapons to get the big hitting attacks. All and all I think this is a very solid suggestion

Valik Shin
Darkwood Legion [DARK]
Yak’s Bend

Trait choices hamstrung by weapon diversity

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Posted by: Dand.8231

Dand.8231

I actually really like this. It alwows the warrior to pick whatever weapons suits them while not making them op. The longbow trait is really only good in hybrid and condi builds. Crackshot is meh at best do the rifle lack of utility so that baseline is ok. The only stun weapons are hammer , shield and mace so u still have to swap weapons to get the big hitting attacks. All and all I think this is a very solid suggestion

Thanks!
Just as importantly, my “Merciless Blows” suggestion doesn’t relocate the trait, so it’s competing with both Heightened Focus and Burst Mastery, two highly compelling choices. But I think it stacks up and is worth consideration at times!

Same with the suggestion for “Weapon Mastery”; it stays put, so it’s competing with Berserkers Power (and distracting strikes, but….lol). +20% with decent uptime, or always up +5% with bonus adrenaline.

Trait choices hamstrung by weapon diversity

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Posted by: BurrTheKing.8571

BurrTheKing.8571

The weapon traits are just not the best design model anyway. They really DO sort of limit diversity more than they encourage it.

Here’s a better way, eliminate all weapon traits and have each trait affect a much broader playstyle.

Example
Roll the 20% cooldown into the baseline for ALL weapons that currently have a 20% trait. And roll in a few traits that the weapon basically requires to be usable. Replace these traits with traits that provide more compelling choices.

Strength Tree – Forceful Blows (Replacing Forceful Greatsword): Gain 1 stack of might per critical strike with any attack.

Strength Tree – Weapon Mastery (Replacing Axe Mastery): All attacks deal 5% more damage, and critical hits grant 1 bonus adrenaline.

Arms – Scent of Blood (Replacing Blademaster): All attacks have +20% critical chance vs bleeding foes.

Defense Tree – Sundering Blows (Master 3, Replacing Sundering Mace): Attacks cause vulnerability to foes with daze/stun/cc/etc

Tactics – Burning Arrows: Rolled into Longbow Baseline. Replace with a new trait.

Tactics – Quick Breathing: Rolled into Warhorn Baseline. Replace with a new trait.

Discipline – Crack Shot: Rolled into Rifle Baseline. Replace with new trait.

Discipline – Merciless Blows (Replacing Merciless Hammer): All attacks cause +20% damage to foes with daze/stun/cc/etc

This is actually a really cool idea. This could probably be applied to all classes

This system may not change a whole lot in terms of choice, but it would help rifle and LB a lot especially.

Would you be OK with me writing something up along the lines of “Removing Weapon Traits: A New Form of Variety” and we could put it in the general or PvP forums. I would credit you of course. I really like this concept.

Just an angry old man…

Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)

Trait choices hamstrung by weapon diversity

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Posted by: Dand.8231

Dand.8231

This is actually a really cool idea. This could probably be applied to all classes

This system may not change a whole lot in terms of choice, but it would help rifle and LB a lot especially.

Would you be OK with me writing something up along the lines of “Removing Weapon Traits: A New Form of Variety” and we could put it in the general or PvP forums. I would credit you of course. I really like this concept.

Go for it. If I wanted to keep my ideas all for myself, a public forum would certainly be an odd place to store them eh?

Warrior is the only class I feel qualified enough to make such specific trait suggestions for, but I agree it could be great for all classes.

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Posted by: BurrTheKing.8571

BurrTheKing.8571

This is actually a really cool idea. This could probably be applied to all classes

This system may not change a whole lot in terms of choice, but it would help rifle and LB a lot especially.

Would you be OK with me writing something up along the lines of “Removing Weapon Traits: A New Form of Variety” and we could put it in the general or PvP forums. I would credit you of course. I really like this concept.

Go for it. If I wanted to keep my ideas all for myself, a public forum would certainly be an odd place to store them eh?

Warrior is the only class I feel qualified enough to make such specific trait suggestions for, but I agree it could be great for all classes.

There might be a power creep issue to content with, thought off the top of my head I can’t think of any class that has a weapon trait that would totally break the game.

Just an angry old man…

Old Man Burr (War), Bad Hat Ben (Engi), Manly Manny Manson (Guard)

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Posted by: Choppy.4183

Choppy.4183

Me likey too. Great job!

I’m Biff Rangoon, and I approved this message.
Ehmry Bay | Omg Brb Icecream Truck (ICEE)

Trait choices hamstrung by weapon diversity

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Posted by: Ilias.8647

Ilias.8647

While the general concept of remove the connection between a trait and a specific weapon is really nice there are certain issues that cannot be over-looked. I am partially surprised that no one pointed out so far. What I am talking about?

There are huge disparities between weapon damage potential that a warrior can use. I mean GS can deal really good damage even with simple skills, other than 100b. Using zerker gear and while in combat u can easily see 5k from Whirling alone, 4k from Rush alone even 4k from a fully successful Bladetrail (2 hits). 100b alone can easily surpass 10k. Even auto-attack gives 1,5k-2,2k (ALL the numbers given w/o any exaggeration and above all WITHOUT Forceful Greatsword trait). – Please keep these in mind!!!

Axe can’t reach these numbers, no need to mention sword…

With such HUGE gaps between weapon damage capabilities, if you give +5% damage, and +20% crit chance to bleeding enemies to any weapon then why someone not use solely the GS? I mean, GS has the best damage already, +5% more will be even better! And +20% crit chance against bleeding foes? With Arms and Sigil of Earth you can maintain bleeding 95% of the time! Actually with zerker gear and using Arms(signet precision) you can be almost to 100% most of the time… Why not use GS again and be virtually on 100% crit all the time even easier? (maybe even get some valkyries pieces and still be 100% crit chance?)

In the end… you propose some effects on daze/stun/cc/etc foes. Not every weapon has the means to daze/stun/cc/etc. Axe and GS have the less means to do so!

Pls don’t misjudge my post. I am not saying that this idea isn’t a good one. Its good but needs to be part of “a bigger picture”. As long as you keep weapons with such huge disparities, having traits will global effects will lead you sooner or later to the same weapon choice (GS).

Last but not least… No one mentioned the overall “extinct” possibility to play warrior using condi/hybrid builds. The disparity between power builds and condi/hybrid ones led us to forget that warrior could play with condi by design. This also narrow down our choices. Its a huge disgrace for Anet to design something and make it worse and worse over time that no one even bothers to mention.

Mesmer for example can wreck havoc with both power and condi builds (condis being easier to do so than power). Why we forgot this aspect of warriors?

Currently residing on … Gandara[EU]

(edited by Ilias.8647)

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Posted by: Valik Shin.9027

Valik Shin.9027

Axe use to out dps gs. People complained that axe was to strong so the nerfed it. Then people still said it was to strong so the back loaded it making the final strike deal more damage while the frist couple r wet noodle

Valik Shin
Darkwood Legion [DARK]
Yak’s Bend

Trait choices hamstrung by weapon diversity

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Posted by: Ilias.8647

Ilias.8647

Axe use to out dps gs. People complained that axe was to strong so the nerfed it. Then people still said it was to strong so the back loaded it making the final strike deal more damage while the frist couple r wet noodle

Actually Axe #1 skill-chain still deals greater damage compared to GS #1 skill-chain. The change to Axe #1 (moving the most damage to the 3rd hit) didn’t make the Axe auto-attack worse than GS.

The GS is ahead in terms of damage not only cause of 100b (which can easily surpass 12k) but because the rest of the GS skills deal respectable damage as well (4-5k mostly).

No other weapon can pack such a punch in each weapon skill. No wonders why Warr DPS builds include a GS.

Currently residing on … Gandara[EU]