Guild Wars 2

@Kagamiku:
I agree. I think Warrior is currently balanced more around having Fast Hands than not having it … so it would likely be more work to balance around not having it.

The only bit of “less work” I can see from removing Fast Hands (instead of baselining it) is with on-swap sigils since they are supposed to be balanced for everyone … it’d be easier if there wasn’t a single class that skewed their power.

Sebrent.3625:

@Kagamiku:
I agree. I think Warrior is currently balanced more around having Fast Hands than not having it … so it would likely be more work to balance around not having it.

The only bit of “less work” I can see from removing Fast Hands (instead of baselining it) is with on-swap sigils since they are supposed to be balanced for everyone … it’d be easier if there wasn’t a single class that skewed their power.

Except they’re balanced now with the sigils handled exactly as they are with respect to FH.

Except that Warrior can leverage two sets of them twice as often as others.

• Swap A —> B … B sigils activate … 9 second cd on B sigils
• 5 seconds elapse
• Swap B —> A … A sigils activate … 9 second cd on A sigils … 4 second cd on B sigils
• 5 seconds elapse
• Swap A —> B … B sigils activate … 9 second cd on B sigils … 4 second cd on A sigils

… 10 seconds with Fast Hands …

As opposed to other classes which even with a 9 second cd from runes (which no one takes because it’s garbage) …

• Swap A —> B … B sigils activate … 9 second cd on B sigils
• 9 seconds elapse
• Swap B —> A … A sigils activate … 9 second cd on A sigils
• 9 seconds elapse
• Swap A —> B … B sigils activate … 9 second cd on B sigils

… 18 if you take those horrible runes … 20 if you’re sane and take better runes …

Which frequency were they balanced around?

Or was Warrior balanced around having on-swap sigils?

If Warrior was balanced around having on-swap sigils, what all does that entail as far as Warrior and sigils that aren’t on-swap? … seems like a possible rabbit hole … or it could just mean that Warrior builds that take other sigils are less powerful than those that do … unless the changes are going to somehow breed life into builds that are just as powerful without Fast Hands as other builds with it.

If you are complaining about Swap sigils as an excuse to why baseline Fast Hands shouldn’t happen, then you are simply bad. That is a FAIL ARGUMENT. That’s like the only instant cast Warrior can have and guess what, you can REACT AGAINST it. How? Learn to dodge the already telegraphed skills Warrior has and stay away from swap range while you bait out the Warrior’s defense.

Sadly people like Sebrent have a hard time comprehending SIMPLE MECHANICS and still probably thinks Warrior is over-powered when the Warrior meta (shoutbow) right now is just a pub-stomping class that can’t really make plays and depends too much on team mates.

Also, on-swap sigils only really benefit condi builds anyways (Zero CC other than Fear Me, which gets condi cleansed by target and his team mates easy, no point in picking over Necro). If you’re having problems with fire/air + rage/paralyzation on Warrior or something along those lines, then you literally have problems mechanically and you need to play BETTER. THAT SIMPLE.

Sebrent, you’re contradicting yourself. You’ve said repeatedly that warriors are balanced with FH, which is why making it baseline isn’t that big of a deal.

Pointing to how the trait works with sigils, and has worked for some time now, doesn’t change the balance you’ve already acknowledged. It’s like saying, “sure, warriors are balanced with Fast Hands, but it has to be toned down because that’s TWICE as fast of a weapon swap than other classes!”

If warriors are balanced now with FH, they’d continue to be balanced tomorrow with FH.

@Choppy:
I think you see a contradiction because you misunderstand the context. We only got onto sigils due to me saying earlier that

The only bit of “less work” I can see from removing Fast Hands (instead of baselining it) is with on-swap sigils since they are supposed to be balanced for everyone

We only got onto sigils because of Kagamiku’s mention of it being harder to balance warrior around not having Fast Hands than it would be to balance around it being baselined.

We’re only talking about sigils as far as “how much work (if any) would it require it to balance around baseline Fast Hands” compared to “how much work would it require to balance around Fast Hands being removed”

I agreed baselining would be less work and merely stated that the only thing I thought could be more work would be sigils … emphasis on the could … not would. I rarely deal in absolutes unless we’ve got the math.

Showing the difference in how it works with Fast Hands versus without it was to show that they don’t necessarily have the same power for those without Fast Hands as they do for those with Fast Hands given that Fast Hands does allow them to be used twice as much.

The only reason that was brought up was because I think there could be some balance work required there if Fast Hands was baseline.

Is it clearer now?

@Nier:
Please actually read the thread. You show that you obviously haven’t given that I have said that I agree that it should be made baseline or removed … and balanced with whichever is done.

Not once have I said it was overpowered. Not once have I said that it being baselined would be a problem. Not once did I say anything that lends any credit to your baseless, asinine claims that show your inability or unwillingness to read and sheer to desire to type your opinion when you have no clue about the current context of the thread and the posts in it.

If you aren’t going to read, shut your yapper until you get a clue about what’s actually going on in the thread … which is done by actually reading … thinking helps too.

This thread seems to be about discussion more then about finding an answer.

… and you don’t think discussion helps people find an answer?

… is there something else we should be doing on a forum besides having discussions?

Honestly, we’ve discussed “baseline fast hands” so many times in the past month it’s gotten old and the only real things left to discuss are little side-topics related to it like “what would take less work”.

Though we obviously still have those people who don’t read any of the threads and just post the equivalent of “I like pancakes!”.

I’m for one really want to hear what the devs are thinking about this issue.
From my experience the developers only answers for things that they want to answer, and I do believe @Josh or @Roy already read this thread and the many others the processed this one and simply do not have a good enough answer to give.
So this is only a small attempt to act like there is a chance for a real communication here at GW2, frankly I’ll be very surprise if this thread will turn red.

I can’t say I blame them for not answering it.

I agree with you that they probably don’t have a good answer in that they can’t give concrete reasons why … probably just anecdotes and possibly some statistics they’ve observed from gameplay since the last patch.

It is quite difficult to quantify Fast Hands as that faster weapon swaps means considerably different things depending on the traits, weapon sets, sigils, traits, etc. in a given build.

For example:
Fast Hands in a shoutbow build allows for far more Might Stacking as it allows a Warrior to swap to Longbow, Burst Skill, Blast w/ Longbow, swap to Sword+Horn, Blast w/ Horn, Leap w/ Sword … and do it often.

For some weapon sets, it is just allowing more swapping between weapons so more weapon skills spam or, preferably, more proper selection of the ideal weapon for the current situation.

If someone wants to try to quantify, I’d love to see the thought process and math though. Would be an interesting exercise at the least.

Sebrent.3625:

The only reason that was brought up was because I think there could be some balance work required there if Fast Hands was baseline.

Is it clearer now?

I’m just not clear why any balancing even might be required if FH is made baseline vs leaving it how it is. The interaction with sigils remains constant.

I wasn’t saying it would be required (an absolute).
I was saying it could be required (a possibility).

If swap sigils are already balanced around being used half as much by other as they are by warriors, then no work is required in that area. This is possible given how Warriors have been making use of swap sigils with Fast Hands for quite some time and it hasn’t received any real spotlight from the devs (at least not that I’m aware of).

I just don’t want to rule it out as that would be an assumption. I offer it up as a possibility as that is what it is; something that might possibly need tweaking due to baseline Fast Hands.

Now, if I was to operate under assumptions … then …
Assuming (1) Warrior is already balanced around having Fast Hands, (2) Swap Sigils are balanced around Warrior being able to use them twice as much, and (3) ArenaNet only made Illusionary Persona baseline for the reason stated in the livestream (auto-include in viable builds) … then …

… I see no reason why Fast Hands should not be baselined as it fits the logic provided by ArenaNet for baselining Illusionary Persona and it would be less work to baseline it than it would be to remove it from the game.

All clear now?

I wanted this back when the game launched. For a weapons master class, having to trait 15 into the tree just for weapon mastering was steep. Now you will be forced into a line for the same effect is even more steep in my opinion since you can only choose 3 lines now. I am not a fan of 10 sec swap on war, but if you play other classes, you do get used to it.

Would be interested to see if players can make anything of a 10 sec war