Guild Wars 2

The ideal ‘meta game’ for Guild Wars 2 would be one in which every class was not forced into particular traits or weaponsets in order to be viable but instead could create a kit designed for a specific purpose and do well with it.
This thread intends to serve as a discussion of balance of a class within the class itself. This is not a topic I often hear discussed when balance is on the table. “Individual Class Balance” explores the idea that a Ranger requiring Empathic Bond, or a Warrior requiring Cleansing Ire is bad design.

I’m going to start with Warrior as an example:
Warriors are intended to be the strongest melee class with a weakness to conditions and being kited. Their high base health and armor is supposed to in part, make up for this.
Back in the first half of 2013, warriors were not considered viable and received a number of extremely large buffs which turned their weaknesses into strengths overnight.

Currently, any ‘meta’ warrior spec has four (or five) things in common:

1. Healing Signet
2. Longbow (Primarily, Combustive Shot and Pin Down)
3. Cleansing Ire
4. (Burst Mastery)
5. Berserker’s Stance

These five aspects of the warrior represent a tiny part of the class as a whole, but for the past 6 months they have been allowed to pidgeonhole both warrior build diversity and other class diversity as well. In fact, each class has a choice of 75 traits, dozens of weapon skills, and over 25 slot skills.

Now, if I was balancing for Arenanet, I would try and conduct my balance endeavors in the following way:
1. Single out the biggest problems making a class too powerful as I have done above
2. Give those things substantial nerfs.
3. Look for the weakest parts of the class
4. Give those parts substantial buffs

For example, “On My Mark” applies 10 stacks of vulnerability to a single target on a 30 second cooldown. This utility is terrible by any sense of the word. I would look for a way to improve the worthless skills in a class kitten nal like “On My Mark” until finally, someone says, "Wait a minute, “On My Mark” is good for this situation or this build!"
By balancing classes like this, instead of doing extremely minor nerfs to the meta builds, we would see classes because more balanced within themselves. We would also see a much slower power creep, if any, if this was done correctly.

A different example of the same type of internal class imbalance could be Ranger. Rangers are completely reliant upon 30 points into Wilderness Survival which increases Toughness and Condition Damage for survival. This line contains the Grandmaster trait Empathic Bond which is their only good condition removal. In addition, the only build that allows a ranger to have a substantial effect upon a team fight is through the use of spirits, and the Elite Spirit of Nature is by far the best Elite skill they can take.

So, Rangers are pidgeonholed similarly to Warrior:

1. Empathic Bond (parallel = Cleansing Ire)
2. Spirit of Nature

Just to acquire these two things causes Rangers to use up 50-60 trait points. Pidgeonholed? I think so.
If for example, Empathic Bond and Spirit of Nature were removed entirely, Ranger would be on a completely different power level than what it currently resides at. It would also actually be better balanced as well because these two things are just so much stronger than any other options. I’m not saying that these two abilities should be removed entirely, just that they should be brought down while other Ranger abilities are brought up.

To me, when I hear Arenanet talk about balance, it always feels like they are looking at overall class balance. In other words, they look at it like this: Warrior? Ok it has a role in the meta, good! Ranger? It has a role in the meta, nice! Elementalists? Hmm, it doesn’t have a role in the meta, better give them some crazy buffs!

This style of balancing will never lead to an interesting game. Guild Wars 2 only has 8 classes. We need these classes to be diverse in what they can bring to the table. We need them to be balanced within themselves, so that you aren’t forced to take 1 or 2 major abilities that completely define your gameplay experience.

Have you considered that perhaps the reason why certain classes have trending builds is due to the meta itself? In your example, many warriors use healing signet, cleansing ire, longbow, but is it because these are overpowered or imbalanced, or is it a direct answer to the meta of extreme AoE condition pressure from tanky builds?

What if the meta shifted back to high burst glass cannons, where encounters are decided in a matter of seconds rather than minutes. Warriors would not be able to keep up with the fast tempo using sluggish heals from healing signet or low direct damage weapons like longbow. Therefore, the rise of greatsword will take place due to its high burst, high mobility, and versatility. Etc.

Don’t single out a few traits and abilities and say that just because everyone uses them, that they are perhaps imbalanced. A class should have access to all the tools necessary to adapt to a meta shift, and perhaps these are the tools that are being utilized to adapt to this meta. You can’t blame players for finding a way to survive and thrive in a meta. Warriors are, in your terms, “pigeon-holed”, not primarily because of the shortcomings of the warrior class itself; they’re pigeon-holed due to the overall meta forcing them to build a certain way to survive the meta.

I heartily agree. I play a guard and I often look at some of my utility abilities and wish there was a build in which they would be useful. Spirit weapons are cool, but really, they’re not viable at all.

I agree that balance means any skill can be useful in any build. The fact that most people probably don’t even know Healing Surge, Mending and Defiant Stance means that Healing Signet is just that powerful.

zone.1073:

Have you considered that perhaps the reason why certain classes have trending builds is due to the meta itself? In your example, many warriors use healing signet, cleansing ire, longbow, but is it because these are overpowered or imbalanced, or is it a direct answer to the meta of extreme AoE condition pressure from tanky builds?

What if the meta shifted back to high burst glass cannons, where encounters are decided in a matter of seconds rather than minutes. Warriors would not be able to keep up with the fast tempo using sluggish heals from healing signet or low direct damage weapons like longbow. Therefore, the rise of greatsword will take place due to its high burst, high mobility, and versatility. Etc.

Don’t single out a few traits and abilities and say that just because everyone uses them, that they are perhaps imbalanced. A class should have access to all the tools necessary to adapt to a meta shift, and perhaps these are the tools that are being utilized to adapt to this meta. You can’t blame players for finding a way to survive and thrive in a meta. Warriors are, in your terms, “pigeon-holed”, not primarily because of the shortcomings of the warrior class itself; they’re pigeon-holed due to the overall meta forcing them to build a certain way to survive the meta.

It won’t happen because warrior and thief also happen to eat the glass builds you theorize could pressure them out of the meta.

Let’s be honest here, warrior are top dog alongside guardian in all aspects of the game. The only reason people dont complain about guardians is because guardians don’t directly kill them, but they’re just as broken in being necessary in a group comp.

Mesmer – Deceptive Evasion, you have no idea how many builds would open up if this came as a default for the class. It’s not that the trait is op, it’s just that the trait is a necessity to be viable in any way.

Countless

Trigr.6481:

Mesmer – Deceptive Evasion, you have no idea how many builds would open up if this came as a default for the class. It’s not that the trait is op, it’s just that the trait is a necessity to be viable in any way.

Countless

Yep, this is a perfect example I had in mind while making this thread.

Technically, mesmers only have 50 trait points they can spend while remaining viable due to the sheer necessity of this trait.

zone.1073:

Have you considered that perhaps the reason why certain classes have trending builds is due to the meta itself? In your example, many warriors use healing signet, cleansing ire, longbow, but is it because these are overpowered or imbalanced, or is it a direct answer to the meta of extreme AoE condition pressure from tanky builds?

What if the meta shifted back to high burst glass cannons, where encounters are decided in a matter of seconds rather than minutes. Warriors would not be able to keep up with the fast tempo using sluggish heals from healing signet or low direct damage weapons like longbow. Therefore, the rise of greatsword will take place due to its high burst, high mobility, and versatility. Etc.

Don’t single out a few traits and abilities and say that just because everyone uses them, that they are perhaps imbalanced. A class should have access to all the tools necessary to adapt to a meta shift, and perhaps these are the tools that are being utilized to adapt to this meta. You can’t blame players for finding a way to survive and thrive in a meta. Warriors are, in your terms, “pigeon-holed”, not primarily because of the shortcomings of the warrior class itself; they’re pigeon-holed due to the overall meta forcing them to build a certain way to survive the meta.

This is simply not true. Warriors are probably the best against bursty builds like ele and mesmer. Healing signet is not weak to burst when in the hands of the class with the highest health, armor and on-demand personal stability and immunities. The fact is that Healing signet + automatic cleansing Ire + stances makes warriors good against everything.

Also, if you think that Pin Down + Arcing Arrow + a point blank Fan of Fire is low direct damage, I dunno what to tell you.

Compare an untraited Healing Turret to a fully traited Elixir H.

How is it that Healing Turret stands so superior? Even if I were to go full on HGH, with every exilir trait, I’d still be reluctant to forgo the turret.

This sheer disparity is suprising given the engineer had only 3 healing skills for so long.

Staples (like Deceptive Evasion) would be alright if our “deck” were larger. If we could slot more skills or had more trait points to spend, then 20 required would be forgivable. As it stands it’s too great an investment. Not to say that’s a viable solution for GW2, but staples are so crippling with the current build size and gated trait structure.

I have to bring a pair of Energy Sigils (say on Guardian), but I only have 3 to start.

It’s always a pain abandoning Invigorating Speed and Speedy Kits in favor of alternate traits. 20 points that provide such all purpose functionality are hard to forgo.

I’d just like to give you much kudos for bringing up such an important point about the state of the game, infantrydiv.1620. I’m a little jealous as to not have been the first. I’ve reposted your OP into my other thread – I hope you don’t mind, because it’s an important issue that bears mention and action.

To provide another example, Elementalist’s extremely low EHP is tempered by Elemental Attunement. It’s the reason why practically every build has taken it and despite Powerr’s (unsuccessful) push to make it baseline Elemental Attunement was made Master Tier, 30 Arcana builds remained unshifted (Blasting Staff/Renewing Stamina, Elemental Attunement, Evasive Arcana)

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Lian Olsam.9541:

Evasive arcana on fire-air-earth adept and attunement
Cd range 11-8 on attun swap
elemental attunement on 5 of arcana
renewed stamina on adept

Make those change and u will unlock every kind of builds, sadly to say but imo every one wanna those traits at any cost… it s a must have for any ele build… otherwise this topic is only gossip… u wanna make more viable build just do this modify

I’ve always personally felt as well that Elemental Attunement is a class defining trait. I’ve been arguing to make it baseline or to bring it back down to tier one but the decision we’ve made instead is to bring Renewing Stamina back down to adept instead. This will prevent the dps ele nerf and even though we might all perceive that EA is a “staple” trait we do luckily have options to trait up instead to make up for the loss if you wish to spend points elsewhere. [Elemental Shielding, Zephyr’s Boon, Soothing Mist, etc. etc.] and yes… I know its more than one trait to make up for one but at least they are there and accessible low in other trait lines.

Our hope is not to destroy builds but to make more. Right now the way it looks for Elementalists in PvP is that most builds will still be the same, maybe with a little less AOE condition removal, but there will be more accessible options when going higher in the Fire, Air, and Earth trees.

I personally can’t wait for the Soothing Mist + Cleansing Water synergy. I think I will be enough for me to opt out of taking Cleansing Wave.

Then there are traits that are required just to make a weapon work, like Forceful Explosives for BK Engineer, Grenadier for GK Engineer, Blasting Staff for Staff Elementalist, the list goes on. With April 15th, Rangers can now have Read the Wind to make Longbow work. There is something quite disconcertingly lazy to introduce traits just to allow proper function, and it’s a disappointing trend.

SZSSZS.3784:

Compare an untraited Healing Turret to a fully traited Elixir H.

How is it that Healing Turret stands so superior? Even if I were to go full on HGH, with every exilir trait, I’d still be reluctant to forgo the turret.

This sheer disparity is suprising given the engineer had only 3 healing skills for so long.

Staples (like Deceptive Evasion) would be alright if our “deck” were larger. If we could slot more skills or had more trait points to spend, then 20 required would be forgivable. As it stands it’s too great an investment. Not to say that’s a viable solution for GW2, but staples are so crippling with the current build size and gated trait structure.

I have to bring a pair of Energy Sigils (say on Guardian), but I only have 3 to start.

It’s always a pain abandoning Invigorating Speed and Speedy Kits in favor of alternate traits. 20 points that provide such all purpose functionality are hard to forgo.

Thanks for more good examples, these type of things are huge imbalances within a class!

MonMalthias.4763:

I’d just like to give you much kudos for bringing up such an important point about the state of the game, infantrydiv.1620. I’m a little jealous as to not have been the first. I’ve reposted your OP into my other thread – I hope you don’t mind, because it’s an important issue that bears mention and action.

To provide another example, Elementalist’s extremely low EHP is tempered by Elemental Attunement. It’s the reason why practically every build has taken it and despite Powerr’s (unsuccessful) push to make it baseline Elemental Attunement was made Master Tier, 30 Arcana builds remained unshifted (Blasting Staff/Renewing Stamina, Elemental Attunement, Evasive Arcana)

Tyler Chapman.1832:

Lian Olsam.9541:

Evasive arcana on fire-air-earth adept and attunement
Cd range 11-8 on attun swap
elemental attunement on 5 of arcana
renewed stamina on adept

Make those change and u will unlock every kind of builds, sadly to say but imo every one wanna those traits at any cost… it s a must have for any ele build… otherwise this topic is only gossip… u wanna make more viable build just do this modify

I’ve always personally felt as well that Elemental Attunement is a class defining trait. I’ve been arguing to make it baseline or to bring it back down to tier one but the decision we’ve made instead is to bring Renewing Stamina back down to adept instead. This will prevent the dps ele nerf and even though we might all perceive that EA is a “staple” trait we do luckily have options to trait up instead to make up for the loss if you wish to spend points elsewhere. [Elemental Shielding, Zephyr’s Boon, Soothing Mist, etc. etc.] and yes… I know its more than one trait to make up for one but at least they are there and accessible low in other trait lines.

Our hope is not to destroy builds but to make more. Right now the way it looks for Elementalists in PvP is that most builds will still be the same, maybe with a little less AOE condition removal, but there will be more accessible options when going higher in the Fire, Air, and Earth trees.

I personally can’t wait for the Soothing Mist + Cleansing Water synergy. I think I will be enough for me to opt out of taking Cleansing Wave.

Then there are traits that are required just to make a weapon work, like Forceful Explosives for BK Engineer, Grenadier for GK Engineer, Blasting Staff for Staff Elementalist, the list goes on. With April 15th, Rangers can now have Read the Wind to make Longbow work. There is something quite disconcertingly lazy to introduce traits just to allow proper function, and it’s a disappointing trend.

Thanks! And of course I don’t mind, I felt like I didn’t do a very good job trying to get across my point but I’m glad people are understanding what I’m trying to say.

I feel like a pair of shout heal wars 1 condi 1 stun spam with a burst class could be really devastating, but no teams really coordinate atm, they just all play their solo game and throw in a lil team support here and there. Landing a stun on pretty much any target with a 20 stack of vuln is probably going to gib that target, super viable strat since it counters the condi spam meta with ~8 condi cleanse shouts every 30 seconds, but teams dont really branch out and experiment that much because if they are already beating everyone 99% of the time why change it up?

Using my example, you cant really balance based on just the class, but how the class interacts with a team, sure there are amazing 1v1 and generic builds but the meta is so stale and relies too little on support for variation to be made since all the support anyone really needs at the moment is a team to collapse as a member gets downed to do an instant res. So basically, until the scene gets more competitive and active true steps towards game balance will not be achieved since there are so many awesome combos that teams have been neglecting.