Guild Wars 2

So first 14 days is over. I have spend some time in PvP and mainly in sPvP. Hot-join and also tournaments (lets say 50/50). I like the combat in general. I believe there is still a balance needed and mainly for skills in downed mode as some classes are supperior in downed mode and some like Ele for example who can´t defense himself in downed in any way.

But back to the topic. I would like to ask you guys who are sPvP focused. Do you feel you are fighting players in PvP or AI? Let me explain.

I can see so many builds using different kind of pets / illusions / clones / spirits / elementals / minions / turrets / spirit weapons. All this is creating such a mess in PvP and giving so many advantages.

Lets count it

Mesmers: definitelly one of the most classes that can create illusions. Well its their mechaninc so in this case im fine with the clones / illusions. They are annoying but since i play mesmer too i allready know how to recognize skill animations that creates clones. If you are having hard time to defeat mesmer i would recomand you play one for a week. Then you will have very good knowelage about their illusions.
Thiefs: they have their TG elite. In my opinion a bit OP but mainly creating 2 additional thieves for short time (well for 30 sec).
Rangers: they do have pets and on top of that they can run with spirits. Why the hell they can trait spirits to be movable? I can agree with Pet (btw most annoying when pet is following you arround whole map while ranger is allready far far away).
Elementalist: they have their spirits ? or elementals following them? seriously ? Another example of not really needed pet.
Necro: with his minion army. But in this case it is his mechanic so probably its has to be like this.
Guardians: with spiritual weapons.
Engineers: with turrets and their elite – what a mess in a team fight. Lets say turrets are fine but there should be a limit and that elite maybe too many turrets at once?

And on top of this is the OGRE armor which is now very popular. One additional free pet spawn for every class and “for free”.

Speaking about these im not saying i want a nerf. Im just saying that there is too many AI controlled minions / pets and sometimes you see an army while you fighting only 1or 2 guys.

So guys.. do you feel this is right? or dont you feel there shoud be much more less AI controlled pets / minions than in current meta is.

My opinion is that there should be only Ranger pet, mesmer illusions and necro minions. Anything else should be replaced by different skills and these tree classes should be balanced (if i kill the necro guy.. his minions should die as well same with mesmer clones etc.)

I found all of the “pets” really annoying until I really got my targeting methods down and double checking that my target is an actual player (look to the right for class identifying icon). I have gotten use to the “pets” and identify them much better now and has made things much better. There are a lot of extras in the game and can be confusing if you’re running at max graphics. I also turned down animations and other settings to help with some of the on screen chaos at times.

I am very glad to have seen this topic, because its one of the biggest reasons I think sPvP in this game is just not very good or on par with what other games have to offer. That isn’t to say there isn’t the core of something good – there certainly is, and I’d love to see it come out at some point. That said, right now there are a number of issues which I think seriously detract from it, and this is one of them.

Consider that in a 5v5 tournament match – the supposedly less zergy format – you can have up to 50 entities on the battlefield at the same time, between players, Ranger Pets, Necro minions, Mesmer illusions, Engineer turrets, Ogre rune rockdogs, Elementalist Elementals, etc. A lot of other games are criticized as being player versus gear, and one of the big intentions behind the sPvP in Guild Wars 2 was to eliminate that, but it ends up feeling like player versus RNG or player versus AI more than player versus player. A huge portion of what goes on in any PvP battle is very much dependant upon what AIs and RNGs are doing, as opposed to being about purely what buttons the competitors sitting behind their keyboards are pressing.

To me, this seriously detracts from the integrity of the sPvP, not to mention that it makes every battlefield into a giant mess. I think if the sPvP in this game is to be taken seriously – especially if its to be given any kind of recognition as an e-sport – this needs to change drastically. The problem is, of course, that so many of these NPC entities are such a core mechanic to the classes that removing them seems impossible. All in all, I think its a pretty unfortunate situation.

I think were just going to have to wait and see if AoE is a hard enough counter these “familiar” based builds. Lots of teams are already going back to things like GS guardian or glass staff ele in order to get these down quickly.

I know that my glass shatter build wrecks phantasm Mesmers for instance and Thieves with thieves guild if I catch them in a CC.

The overwhelming number of “pets” is a valid concern to be sure.
But many builds like spirit ranger or turret engineer just aren’t very strong in competitive play at the moment.

Buffing AoE is one straight forward way of combating this issue if it really turns out to hamper competitive play in the long run, but it’s a fine line with professions like ranger and mesmer that are reliant on there familiars as a primary damage source.

My biggest concern with such a change is that AoE abilities like GS guardian spins or ele scepter would continue to deal great single target damage while incidentally becoming a hard counter to any pet reliant profession.

The “hybrid” nature of these abilities is already a little bit of an issue, at least for mesmers in my opinion (not game breaking) in that they do the jobs of AoE and single target well at the same time.

Absolutely too many player spawned NPC’s. I am really not sure what the designers were thinking. The only classes should be hunters, mesmers, and necros. And they should only be allowed ONE pet. Mesmer spawn only ONE illusion.

In sPVP it is absolutely rediculous when there are so many NPC’s on screen. I wanted to like the sPVP in this game so much, but right now it really needs tweaking toward enjoyability.

I’m not a fan of the pets/NPCs, but I doubt that’s going to change being that this obviously something they thought about during development but seeing as they’ve invested so heavily on NPCs, seems like ArenaNet planned it this way……

When I first saw the mesmer spitting out all those clones instead of rupting their opponent like in GW1, I was a bit disappointed.

However, what I don’t like most of all currently is the cap point game type. That’s something that detracts from the game BIG TIME. It encourages selfishness, it’s repetitive and boring. I’m hoping they add different game types like CTL, TDM or CTF… like soon.

I’m rank 20 and now that the allure of potential pretty armor(aka fluff) is starting to fade, I’m finding the PvP browser a bore and not seeing a point in playing any further if this is the only game type.

I have to agree here,at some point last night we were fighting to defend a point and there were so many clones,pets,things as well as ability effects on the screen that i had absolutely no idea what was going on.That combined with the issues of the target being constantly lost/moved (do pets pull aggro/taunt?!?) made me just pop swiftness and get out of there,not good!

The game is new and FoTM will exist in any MMORPG

About this topic:

Ranger- Their pet is their class mechanic deal with it
Guardian- Spirit weapon army is a build with lack of utilitys
Ranger- Spirit Ranger is the same has the guardian with spirit army
Necro- Same has last 2
Ele- It’s a elite and a utility
Mesmer- Clones are so weak, phantasmal are the dmg dealers and at tops there are only 2
Thief- It’s a elite, should be good

Rune of the Ogre- Hello Mr nerf hammer

And don’t forget, they are all npc and all npc are dumb, predictable andkitten /p>

if you see all of those things yeah I guess it could be overwhelming but it’s rare to see many of those in a single game

weapon guardian and minion necro are newb builds you won’t see outside mega low tier pvp so scratch that. Support ranger summons are distinctive enough that I don’t see how it would distract you from killing your target, the ranger, at all.

I agree that mesmers can be frustrating. Seeing 3 mesmers on the other team in a 5v5 tournament already invokes a sigh. Elementalist’s elemental is its ult, and it’s just one minion, big deal.

Engineer’s crates and turrets aren’t even targeted by your target button.

Honestly I don’t see what the problem is here. Apart from the mesmer, you can target or find any of those classes very easily and very often the builds that focus on getting as much crap as possible usually lead to very weak gameplay (with the exception of spirit support ranger and mesmer)

Unless you have some kind of OCD that needs your screen neat and tidy with only the players present, I personally don’t see what the issue is.

Engineer is not a problem. I play engineer and afaik the turrets from the elite skill(supply crate) will disappear after 60 seconds automatically. With the skill having a cooldown of 180 seconds. Meaning 120 seconds without it. Only the turrets you place yourself with utility skills(3 slots) remain until killed and they are usually not that strong. A lot of people in engineers forums say we should not use them and they were for noobs – especially in sPvP they recommend other stuff.

More annoying is the PvE content like the real mobs you can kill in the PvP maps.

Jae.5138:

Unless you have some kind of OCD that needs your screen neat and tidy with only the players present, I personally don’t see what the issue is.

Part of the issue would be fixed if they allowed us to zoom out farther and fixed certain camera issues (auto-fix?) when having your back close to walls etc.At the moment playing a Norn for me is a massive disadvantage.

So you want your main profession to keep having its ability to outnumber a target without most other professions being able to equal the number with a skill like Thieves Guild or Spirit Weapons?

No thanks, you are biased and spreading propaganda. Disgusting, in my opinion.

The games balance is very decent, Arenanet knows what they are doing. That is why they are a multi millionaire gaming company and you are not.

Sneakier.9460:

The game is new and FoTM will exist in any MMORPG

About this topic:

Ranger- Their pet is their class mechanic deal with it
Guardian- Spirit weapon army is a build with lack of utilitys
Ranger- Spirit Ranger is the same has the guardian with spirit army
Necro- Same has last 2
Ele- It’s a elite and a utility
Mesmer- Clones are so weak, phantasmal are the dmg dealers and at tops there are only 2
Thief- It’s a elite, should be good

Rune of the Ogre- Hello Mr nerf hammer

And don’t forget, they are all npc and all npc are dumb, predictable andkitten /p>

None of this changes the fact that with all of these on the field at once, its virtually impossible to have any clue what’s going on – and this is coming from a StarCraft player who is perfectly capable of taking in a lot of information with a quick look.

Nor does it change the fact that, however small, these items introduce computer AI into the outcomes of PvP battles – something which is so contrary to what PvPers want that it’s shocking that they even considered this stuff for the game, let alone actually implemented it.

I agree the amount of pets is ridicilous. 8vs8 turns into 25vs 25.

Shintai.5618:

I agree the amount of pets is ridicilous. 8vs8 turns into 25vs 25.

Worse: 5v5 can turn into 25 v 25. It’s not likely, but a 50 “entity” tournament match is possible.

Skolops.2604:

None of this changes the fact that with all of these on the field at once, its virtually impossible to have any clue what’s going on – and this is coming from a StarCraft player who is perfectly capable of taking in a lot of information with a quick look.

Nor does it change the fact that, however small, these items introduce computer AI into the outcomes of PvP battles – something which is so contrary to what PvPers want that it’s shocking that they even considered this stuff for the game, let alone actually implemented it.

SC2 player here

I dont know wich race you played more, but myself player protoss, the ilussion of a army to scare my enemy and confuse is valid tactic

That’s why i used sentrys to summon mass colossus while going for pure blink stalker with couple sentry to throw some fear

The same logic applys here in GW2

If a tourney team decides to make the battle 25 vs 5, it a legit tactic if they can pull it off

Auto targeting pets needs to go.

Sneakier.9460:

If a tourney team decides to make the battle 25 vs 5, it a legit tactic if they can pull it off

That is a legitimate tactic and it can be really annoying to face considering a few things. 1: you can only mark one target at a time to be focused. 2: Having that much stuff piled up on the screen at once combined with the regular abilities can cause sever framerate drops. 3: Tab targeting (at least for me) seems to favor cycling everything I don’t want to target before it actually targets the player.

Here’s what just happened.
A necro, a ranger, an elementalist, all with one or more pets. And I couldn’t take a pic of their mesmers ’cause he was out of my line of sight at the moment.

This crap just needs to go.

Sneakier.9460:

Skolops.2604:

None of this changes the fact that with all of these on the field at once, its virtually impossible to have any clue what’s going on – and this is coming from a StarCraft player who is perfectly capable of taking in a lot of information with a quick look.

Nor does it change the fact that, however small, these items introduce computer AI into the outcomes of PvP battles – something which is so contrary to what PvPers want that it’s shocking that they even considered this stuff for the game, let alone actually implemented it.

SC2 player here

I dont know wich race you played more, but myself player protoss, the ilussion of a army to scare my enemy and confuse is valid tactic

That’s why i used sentrys to summon mass colossus while going for pure blink stalker with couple sentry to throw some fear

The same logic applys here in GW2

If a tourney team decides to make the battle 25 vs 5, it a legit tactic if they can pull it off

I never said it wasn’t a legitimate tactic, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t one which makes the game less fun. I’m not complaining that its overpowered or anything – it should theoretically be balanced, although it certainly takes an immensely higher skill level just from the sheer aspect of APM, visual recognition, decision making, and team coordination to fight a team with 20 pets out than one without. I’d also say that it’s simply nonsense to talk about it as something which needs to be “pulled off.” There is very little kill required to summon your pets and then go about your business.

My real complain is just that it makes for crummy PvP. I don’t care if my team has 25, their’s does, or both do. The fact that the battlefield is cluttered up with such a mass of bodies is just… it’s not fun. It’s irritating, its visually unappealing, its all kinds of things. It’s 20 AIs having a large impact in what is supposed to be player versus player.

Good players are fighting players.

Bad players are fighting mirror images.

OP is so fu right…too much pets and other stuff around!

It’s not the point of good vs bad players. It’s that its utterly UNENJOYABLE to pvp when there are so many pets on ur screen. Not to mention frame rate suffers

I would love to see a answer/statement of Anet on this topic…because many ppl complain about this lately

Candiru.5279:

I would love to see a answer/statement of Anet on this topic…because many ppl complain about this lately

It’s true… I think its the biggest problem with the PvP in this game right now. Of course, that’s an opinion. What’s not really an opinion is that of all the discussion on the various forums for this game right now, its the one item which is usually agreed on by the vast majority of respondents.

this is one of the hardest parts of the learning curve in my opinion. some builds really do make alot of summoned minions and being able to target the player in the middle of all that mess requires practice.

metaphorm.6904:

this is one of the hardest parts of the learning curve in my opinion. some builds really do make alot of summoned minions and being able to target the player in the middle of all that mess requires practice.

That’s all true, but it really does go beyond skill and learning curve. It’s just not enjoyable to look at or play either against or with all of these NPCs running around, even if its not hard for someone to do it. For example, I don’t really have problems with necro minions, but I still hate playing in games with minion specced necros because it just looks stupid and I know there’s AI playing a role in what is supposed to be a PvP match.

metaphorm.6904:

this is one of the hardest parts of the learning curve in my opinion. some builds really do make alot of summoned minions and being able to target the player in the middle of all that mess requires practice.

In some cases its impossible at all i believe. For example to recognize a mesmer in team fight between his illusions and other classes pets could be a very hard job. And then he just decoy or blink .. making it once again out of your target.

It is something of an annoyance that two of our maps "special mechanics are entirely based on PvPve. And that’s saying nothing of Capricorns sharks. It’s one of the reasons I dig Kyhlo so much.Trebs are not that big of a deal and it’s the closest thing to a “pure” PvP map in the game.