Guild Wars 2

Hello,

Something I’ve always had a problem with in this games pvp is the combat mechanics. They are built so that the player doesn’t have to do a whole lot of work. Perhaps it was to appease crowds that dont normally MMO pvp, but I feel it is lazy.

Here are a list of some of the things that cause the combat to feel lazy.

1. AoEs. Lots of them. AoEs allow players to not directly target players. Just be in their general area and do lots of damage to multiple players.

2. Lots of full damage negators. Allows players to be forgiven for doing stupid things in game. These are things like invulnerability, evades, blocks, etc. We’re seeing more counter to blocks, however invulnerability and evade spamming is still a problem. Especially in this meta.

3. AI. Lots of AI means the stress and APM requirement of the player is reduced. Seeing the effectiveness of mesmers and spirit rangers is a testament to this. While mesmer isn’t the easiest class, their AIs do some pretty crazy stuff while the mesmer runs in circles around the target (essentially what they do in the current meta. Run around spamming illusions).

4. Low CD/No Cast time. This allows players to not worry about using a skill wrong. Again lower the skill level required to do well in the game. It makes spamming very forgivable and effective. We are seeing this the most right now in the current meta and the most complaints about it, though its always existed in the game.

5. Passive skills/traits. A great example is the rangers ability to divert a CC to the pet. There is no way to counter it unless someone waste a CC, essentially saying spamming is one way to remove it.

6. Lots of escapes. This combined with low CDs allows players to be forgiven for doing stupid things. An example is say he charges into a 3-4 people. Does enough damage to almost kill some of them. Then uses one of his many gap makers (leaps, teleports, etc) or stealths (currently no counter) to just run away. Essentially forgiving a player for charging into 4-5 people, something some classes can’t do.

Just my thoughts and opinion. It doesn’t represent everyone. A lot of people complain that spvp doesn’t have rewards, game modes, etc. While it does have some weigh in on it, I think the biggest problem lies in the combat mechanics of the game. In spvp they are a lot more noticeable because you dont have a large group, npcs, and other things to help crutch the flawed mechanics.

Completely agree…

The sad thing is the trait/gear system itself is inherently passive. It’s a very difficult situation to improve. The way I’d do it is to put more emphasis on the active skills, remove strong instant abilities and improve telegraphing to the point where almost every skill has it in spades and the frame timings are consistent.
Only issue is that then you’ll run the risk of being in a situation where the trait and gear system almost doesn’t matter…

Mesmer running around spamming illusions…? That works for you? Really?

Iplaytokill.1674:

Mesmer running around spamming illusions…? That works for you? Really?

Have you ever fought a PU mesmer? It’s literally all they do. Run around in circles, hitting stealth and creating clones to spam condis.

The only sad thing about this is that there are still posts about it. Don’t call the game mechanics “Lazy” because you are too lazy to do your research. Devs have responded via forums and livestreams about all of the points made in this topic.

Dirame.8521:

Iplaytokill.1674:

Mesmer running around spamming illusions…? That works for you? Really?

Have you ever fought a PU mesmer? It’s literally all they do. Run around in circles, hitting stealth and creating clones to spam condis.

Have you ever fought a spirit ranger? It’s all they do, run around spamming spirits and auto-attacking with shortbow.

Oh no wait, lemme try again.

Have you ever fought a Necro? It’s all they do, spam minions and run around spamming conds.

Why does Mesmer always get picked as top op class.

dont forget teleports, because making commitments to position decisions is anti fun

Iplaytokill.1674:

Dirame.8521:

Iplaytokill.1674:

Mesmer running around spamming illusions…? That works for you? Really?

Have you ever fought a PU mesmer? It’s literally all they do. Run around in circles, hitting stealth and creating clones to spam condis.

Have you ever fought a spirit ranger? It’s all they do, run around spamming spirits and auto-attacking with shortbow.

Oh no wait, lemme try again.

Have you ever fought a Necro? It’s all they do, spam minions and run around spamming conds.

Why does Mesmer always get picked as top op class.

But…… you specifically mentioned Mesmer though…..

Iplaytokill.1674:

Dirame.8521:

Iplaytokill.1674:

Mesmer running around spamming illusions…? That works for you? Really?

Have you ever fought a PU mesmer? It’s literally all they do. Run around in circles, hitting stealth and creating clones to spam condis.

Have you ever fought a spirit ranger? It’s all they do, run around spamming spirits and auto-attacking with shortbow.

Oh no wait, lemme try again.

Have you ever fought a Necro? It’s all they do, spam minions and run around spamming conds.

Why does Mesmer always get picked as top op class.

You’re right about the other classes. The reason I pick on Mesmer the most is because they frequency that they summon said illusions and the popularity of the class in PvP theaters. Like I said, the class isn’t insanely easy. It’s not a class that you can pick up and play. However, the class’s mechanics revolve around AI and reliance on AI (as some would say the same for a rangers pets). But you’re right, mesmer isn’t the only class that suffers from this. Engineer may eventually start getting the same criticism for their turrets, however engineer turrets are stationary and have a very high CD for most of them.

Well AoEs are needed because of all the lazy evade spamming classes and the constant porting all over. Also needed for the stealth trolls.

Push a button and fly all over the map automatic has some people thinking they are more skilled then other classes that dont have easy mode movement.

Xom.9264:

Well AoEs are needed because of all the lazy evade spamming classes and the constant porting all over. Also needed for the stealth trolls.

Push a button and fly all over the map automatic has some people thinking they are more skilled then other classes that dont have easy mode movement.

Yeah it’s a tricky subject. I mean we are seeing low numbers compared to the rest of the game in spvp. Especially in the hardcore sense. However since the mechanics are account wide and PvE and WvW are doing good for themselves, we can’t do much here. I think as more MMOs are release and the more dedicated players a left (casuals like to hop MMOs every time a new one comes out) we will see a more concrete opinion of the game and its mechanics, even in the number sense.

Iplaytokill.1674:

Dirame.8521:

Iplaytokill.1674:

Mesmer running around spamming illusions…? That works for you? Really?

Have you ever fought a PU mesmer? It’s literally all they do. Run around in circles, hitting stealth and creating clones to spam condis.

Have you ever fought a spirit ranger? It’s all they do, run around spamming spirits and auto-attacking with shortbow.

Oh no wait, lemme try again.

Have you ever fought a Necro? It’s all they do, spam minions and run around spamming conds.

Why does Mesmer always get picked as top op class.

Thanks for just proving his point more.

is the problem the combat system or class design ?

Rangers are meant to “survive”. by design they were given up to 3 evades on a weapon sets and the easest access to protection/regen/vigor while giving them an outside source of passive DPS.

Thief were given a high damage perma evade at low initiative cost by design

Mesmers, even they were designed to be stronger than most classes, from pet targeting/positioning down to what would be their stronger build(shatter), all by design

GW2 has an amazing combat system, it’s all the poor design choises and lack of action that are harming the game

google.3709:

is the problem the combat system or class design ?

Rangers are meant to “survive”. by design they were given up to 3 evades on a weapon sets and the easest access to protection/regen/vigor while giving them an outside source of passive DPS.

Thief were given a high damage perma evade at low initiative cost by design

Mesmers, even they were designed to be stronger than most classes, from pet targeting/positioning down to what would be their stronger build(shatter), all by design

GW2 has an amazing combat system, it’s all the poor design choises and lack of action that are harming the game

Well while it is true that it is in part a class design, it can also be said to be a combat mechanic. The game has evades, invuln, and blocks. The game has low CD, lots of AoEs, etc. So it can be said that the build of the classes determines the combat mechanics of the game for PvP.

google.3709:

is the problem the combat system or class design ?

Rangers are meant to “survive”. by design they were given up to 3 evades on a weapon sets and the easest access to protection/regen/vigor while giving them an outside source of passive DPS.

Thief were given a high damage perma evade at low initiative cost by design

Mesmers, even they were designed to be stronger than most classes, from pet targeting/positioning down to what would be their stronger build(shatter), all by design

GW2 has an amazing combat system, it’s all the poor design choises and lack of action that are harming the game

I guess the elementalist is meant to be mediocre at everything?

I totally agree. I really think you hit the nail on the head with most of these.
The title is not very informative though, which is kinda sad since there you’re raising very legitimate concerns.

Especially this part:
“A lot of people complain that spvp doesn’t have rewards, game modes, etc. While it does have some weigh in on it, I think the biggest problem lies in the combat mechanics of the game”
Couldn’t be more true.

The decision to dump the energy system from GW1 has played a huge part in the general spammy/low skill gameplay of GW2. In GW1 and Warhammer online, if you just spam all your best skills, you don’t have the energy/AP to continue attacking and just stand their like a useless newb. You had to be efficient at wait for an opportunity before using you high cost skills, even when they had low or no cooldown.

In GW2, they even managed to screw that system up with the thief, because they can regen init almost as fast as they use it. A system intended to act as a limit on skill spam instead promotes it.

And ANet wonders why the PvP community has completely lost faith in them.

I really do like the combat mechanics in this game. Evade is really brilliant for high skill play. There could be energy, but when watching a friend play smite, I felt the combat to be very simple and stagnant, not fluid.

Oraith.1732:

The only sad thing about this is that there are still posts about it. Don’t call the game mechanics “Lazy” because you are too lazy to do your research. Devs have responded via forums and livestreams about all of the points made in this topic.

Really?
What was done about mesmer’s clones through the year?
What was done with dodge’s frequency through the year?
What was done with low activation times of skills through the year?
What was done to passive effects that swarm in sigils, runes and traits through the year?

KrisHQ.4719:

I totally agree. I really think you hit the nail on the head with most of these.
The title is not very informative though, which is kinda sad since there you’re raising very legitimate concerns.

Especially this part:
“A lot of people complain that spvp doesn’t have rewards, game modes, etc. While it does have some weigh in on it, I think the biggest problem lies in the combat mechanics of the game”
Couldn’t be more true.

Yeah, I changed it. Hopefully it is better.

I just never trusted people that the reasons that are often discussed were why they dont spvp. They claim they dont like the lack of rewards. Then they go into WvW where all they get badges of honor and put them into a pile they will hardly ever use or buy an already over abundance of siege that they have. WvW ranks are the only slightly rewarding then, even then it requires quite a lot of WvW before you notice a big difference. The complain about lack of game modes, “I dont like running around capping points”, is something I don’t trust either. WvW is running around capturing points. Just one has a wall between you in the point. It is less about personal player skill than spvp. You may say you can roam. What do you do in spvp? 90% of the time the players in there could care less about winning the game. They just want to have fun and kill people.

I strongly stand by combat mechanics and the way combats being a factor, if not a large one, in causing players to not do spvp. As I said in the original post, the other parts of the game have crutches to help make up for these flawed mechanics (food buffs, WvW rank buffs, NPCs, siege, or you’re just fighting a computer, etc).