Guild Wars 2

These need to be changed now. Not in 1 month, not in 3 months. They are extremely bad for the game. Don’t let these two broken specs into the Tournament of Legends. And don’t, kitten , wait for the ‘meta’ to settle. The reason you have such a STALE meta is because you allow broken specs like this to go unchecked for months and months.

Today i got like 10 times stunned by pistol whip in 40seconds.
i was like: “really? really?”

But, i guess nothing will be done about it, neither about decap engis :\\

I wouldn’t even worry about this til we get to see all the trait changes on the 15th.

Allie said they will wait to see how the new traits affect the meta before balancing decap engis.
Unless they put passive traits (their preference) to “Ignore Condition Immunities” and “Become Immune to knockbacks”, we will have to face decap engi for 6 more months.

I admit I feel a little cheap using Pistol Whip. But the ability is so good you rarely do not want to use it.

It’s only against Warriors and other melees where I opt for Black Powder instead.

But unlike Decap Engineers, Pistol Whip doesn’t ruin entire game-modes.

pistol whip is a joke nub thief used those and i laugh when they cant kill me, i play support ele. although decap engi is really annoying if you have good roamer u can kill him before he can decap home against good bunker with stability.

They can’t have a game mode where short term control of points is key and classes have access to huge array of knockbacks and immobilize. That’s the problem with decap engies. It’s pure cheese-mode.

Thieves are going to illustrate some other problems when the new grandmaster traits go live. Already thieves are cheese-mode against certain opponents (you could say necros do fine against most thief builds). But, now they’re going to be able to apply -50% damage intake to themselves in stealth as well as allies who are in their shadow refuge. The ability to rez allies with near impunity will also be pure cheese. I’d say that stands a good chance of being more broken than even decap engies.

Dee Jay.2460:

unlike Decap Engineers, Pistol Whip doesn’t ruin entire game-modes.

agreed with this, in a game with only one mode (point capture) one build being able to continuously keep a point contested against 2-3 people is just baaaaad balance.

though pistol whip is a seriously broken skill,
one button no cooldown.
a stun, an evade, and a high damage cleave.

i’d still rather face a pistol whipping nub than a hambow nub though :P

pistolwhip so strong I almost went under 80% of my hp. nerf this op skill please.

I dont see a problem with pistol whip, even if you spam it 5 times in a row a bunker still has 50% health

Lol and the people saying PW is fine are WvW players…
Do you even tournament pvp bro?

Make capture points bigger so engis can’t knock you out of it with just one skill.

Josh Davis.6015:

So, let’s say we wanted to look into decap engineer, where would we start? I’ve heard a few different opinions on the topic, and I have a few opinions of my own as someone who has played against decap in top 100 rated solo/team arena games and also played the build myself.

In the same way that it was difficult to look at the September ’13 Hambow warrior and point out a single specific key to its strength, I think decap engineer is much the same.

I think it’s important to understand the areas in our game where decap engineer is strong, and then go from there:

• Conquest
  • Situations where communication is difficult (solo arena)
  • Against teams that have difficulty rotating appropriately

So, with the above in mind, what are some ‘low-hanging fruit’ type of suggestions for changing the way decap engineer works, without affecting existing builds unrelated to decap? That is to say, suggestions that would not require significant amounts of development time to implement.

We’ve already seen a few threads on PW, so I’ll focus on decap for now. ^^

Basically it’s all about the AR-Trait. Without AR decap engineer isn’t going to be invincible in a 1vs1 because he lacks condition removal.

Without AR any other condition engineer build is going to kill him (as well as necros etc).

If you nerf AR you’re not hurting other engineer builds. No engineer with honor is running this trait and it’s not required in any other (common) build. If you want to help engineers in terms of condition-opponents you should rather try to implement some kind of condition removal rather than immunity (passive -> active gameplay).

Still need to add cast times to all the instant CC skills in the game. I don’t understand why you’ve been adding cast time to all Warrior skills but instant Doom, Overcharged Shot, Air Blast exist. Then you have skills with no animation tells like all Bomb Kit skills and all Necromancer staff skills. Why exactly do these still exist when a Concussion Bomb is 10x more deadly than a Pin Down.

Josh Davis.6015:

So, let’s say we wanted to look into decap engineer, where would we start? I’ve heard a few different opinions on the topic, and I have a few opinions of my own as someone who has played against decap in top 100 rated solo/team arena games and also played the build myself.

In the same way that it was difficult to look at the September ’13 Hambow warrior and point out a single specific key to its strength, I think decap engineer is much the same.

I think it’s important to understand the areas in our game where decap engineer is strong, and then go from there:

• Conquest
  • Situations where communication is difficult (solo arena)
  • Against teams that have difficulty rotating appropriately

So, with the above in mind, what are some ‘low-hanging fruit’ type of suggestions for changing the way decap engineer works, without affecting existing builds unrelated to decap? That is to say, suggestions that would not require significant amounts of development time to implement.

We’ve already seen a few threads on PW, so I’ll focus on decap for now. ^^

A really good place to start would be Automated Response. This is a terrible trait that needs to be removed, and engies need to be given more active condition removal.

This would simultaneously fix AR Engies being extraordinarily annoying to fight against as a condition class, but also make more of their builds better against the Necromancer which hard counters them.

The specific strength of warrior since September has and continues to be combustive shot turning cleansing Ire into a 100% guaranteed condi removal. All good warriors have realized this and this is why you will only see longbow specs until combustive shot is nerfed.

Decap engineers can continuously push people from the point, and endure quite a beating in the point to make sure enemies can’t take it back. And when their health gets low enough, mindless condition spam won’d do much, and they have quite some decent toughness to endure direct damage.

It’s a combination of traits, skills and gear that results in a build that it’s too effective in what it does.

Reduce the power individual parts of this combination, or move them around, and many other balanced viable builds across the game get destroyed, and engineers become too weakened, as not everyone brings all those things together.

Sometimes there’s no “key skill” to touch or trait to shuffle around, and you have to look at the very mechanics themselves.

So what can be done? You autobalance the system, so the problem does not happen in the first place.

Let’s look at the particular case of pushes.

Why do engineers spam pushes like that? Because they can. They can bring several pushes together, and they come quite in handy in many situations. Specially Skyhammer.

Replace some of those pushes with other effect, or nerf them with changes like increasing their recharges, and many builds that where not using them together lose many vital parts.

How do you prevent some cases without affecting others?

You address CC themselves. A single creature continuously CCed should progressively become resistant to CCs the more it takes within a short time, until it gets a free stun break and becomes immune to CCs for a short time.

Ding. Continuous CC spam no longer works, and CCs go back to being what they should: Strategic tools to turn the pace of the game.

This is what I call autobalance. A system that only kicks in in extreme cases automatically addressing them, so they do not appear in the first place. Such systems absolutely always work, although you see them mostly in properly balanced competitive 2D fighting games like when a target takes less and less damage the more hits they take in succession without hitting back, or when they can’t be continuously juggled in the air.

The main advantage of autobalance is that you don’t have to look at countless skill combinations looking for loopholes, nor continuously shuffle stuff around as problems arise from other changes like trying to solve a Rubik cube at random, as you address the problems themselves directly, so they do not happen in the first place.

Josh Davis.6015:

We’ve already seen a few threads on PW, so I’ll focus on decap for now. ^^

Decap engi was untouched during the 3+ months of internal balancing, and you main engineer. How coincidentally convenient.

Josh Davis.6015:

So, let’s say we wanted to look into decap engineer, where would we start? I’ve heard a few different opinions on the topic, and I have a few opinions of my own as someone who has played against decap in top 100 rated solo/team arena games and also played the build myself.

In the same way that it was difficult to look at the September ’13 Hambow warrior and point out a single specific key to its strength, I think decap engineer is much the same.

I think it’s important to understand the areas in our game where decap engineer is strong, and then go from there:

• Conquest
  • Situations where communication is difficult (solo arena)
  • Against teams that have difficulty rotating appropriately

So, with the above in mind, what are some ‘low-hanging fruit’ type of suggestions for changing the way decap engineer works, without affecting existing builds unrelated to decap? That is to say, suggestions that would not require significant amounts of development time to implement.

We’ve already seen a few threads on PW, so I’ll focus on decap for now. ^^

automated response.

Josh Davis.6015:

So, let’s say we wanted to look into decap engineer, where would we start? I’ve heard a few different opinions on the topic, and I have a few opinions of my own as someone who has played against decap in top 100 rated solo/team arena games and also played the build myself.

In the same way that it was difficult to look at the September ’13 Hambow warrior and point out a single specific key to its strength, I think decap engineer is much the same.

I think it’s important to understand the areas in our game where decap engineer is strong, and then go from there:

• Conquest
  • Situations where communication is difficult (solo arena)
  • Against teams that have difficulty rotating appropriately

So, with the above in mind, what are some ‘low-hanging fruit’ type of suggestions for changing the way decap engineer works, without affecting existing builds unrelated to decap? That is to say, suggestions that would not require significant amounts of development time to implement.

We’ve already seen a few threads on PW, so I’ll focus on decap for now. ^^

Basically the problem with decap engi are two:

1) combos Flamethrower (Air Blast) + Rifle (Net Shot or Overcharged Shot)
2) AR

Starting with 2)

We wrote about 10000 times in this forum how AR is a bad designed trait. In general complete immunity without any CD or length are the evil for this game and not need to exist.

To fix 1) because Air Blast / Overcharged Shot and Net Turret are all instant spell with LOW CD, so it’s almost impossibile to predict when an engi use them (yeah spam dodge ftw! ). You need to balance this combo avoiding to nerf other builds like condi builds and power build (adding a little cast time with a clear animation).

Another way to solve this problem is to block flamthrower and rifle at the sime time: you can equip rifle or flamthrower but not both of them at the same time. For sure this solve decap engi problem. Power build don’t use FT and Rifle at the same time, same condi builds. A little drastic but it works for sure.

Or another old suggestion: make the node bigger

Pistol Whip shouldn’t stun, and not daze either. One second of cripple seems more realistic.

People are obviously playing the game wrong, I still see more hambow warriors and minion mancers than either of these specs.

MithranArkanere.8957:

You address CC themselves. A single creature continuously CCed should progressively become resistant to CCs the more it takes within a short time, until it gets a free stun break and becomes immune to CCs for a short time.

Ding. Continuous CC spam no longer works, and CCs go back to being what they should: Strategic tools to turn the pace of the game.

This sounds pretty good, but would require very significant time and effort to implement and balance.

A similar idea came up with regards to Thieves and repetitive spamming of skills a while back: increase initiative costs each time a skill is used in succession, so that the Thief can still create unique combos through repeated use of skills, but can’t 22222 or 33333 (which is almost entirely what folks have against the class) because they’ll run out of initiative very fast.
My own take on this would be to add a background cooldown to each weapon skill, and use the increased initiative cost only during that cooldown – any skill can be used at any time, if there’s enough initiative, but using any skill too soon after you’ve already cast it incurs this extra cost.

Of course both of these suggestions can’t happen anytime soon, since one is a pretty common core mechanic (hard control) and one is basically an entire profession overhaul… but I like them both and it’d be good to hear what some other folk see as pros and cons of them.

Josh Davis.6015:

So, let’s say we wanted to look into decap engineer, where would we start? I’ve heard a few different opinions on the topic, and I have a few opinions of my own as someone who has played against decap in top 100 rated solo/team arena games and also played the build myself.

In the same way that it was difficult to look at the September ’13 Hambow warrior and point out a single specific key to its strength, I think decap engineer is much the same.

I think it’s important to understand the areas in our game where decap engineer is strong, and then go from there:

• Conquest
  • Situations where communication is difficult (solo arena)
  • Against teams that have difficulty rotating appropriately

So, with the above in mind, what are some ‘low-hanging fruit’ type of suggestions for changing the way decap engineer works, without affecting existing builds unrelated to decap? That is to say, suggestions that would not require significant amounts of development time to implement.

We’ve already seen a few threads on PW, so I’ll focus on decap for now. ^^

It’s mainly a problem in solo queue. There is zero prob with decap at mid in Foefire for obvious reasons. I think if you decreased how far the knockback was it would fix it while still giving Engies the ability to CC. I like the fact that positional play is rewarded from an offensive and defensive standpoint. CC classes keep people honest on points. I think the Ranger needs more CC like the Engie, but if the Engies were toned down like I was saying above. Limit the range of the knockback and you are in business.

Hi, I don’t play anymore (and I don’t know why I’m here), but I never liked the idea of knockbacks being very quick, or even instant. I’m not sure why any CC is instant except for interrupts. It just doesn’t match the pace of the game.

When I look at something like a guardian’s ‘banish’ (hammer #4 knockback), it had a cast time that was long enough to be dodged when you knew how to spot it. However, it wasn’t too long in that you would get hit by it if you weren’t specifically looking for it, and paying attention. It was something that took time to get good at. There were people that could reliably dodge it, and there were others that were just too slow to dodge it all the time (me). But that’s where people can separate themselves, it’s a good thing.

The long, but not too long, cast time created the opportunity for mind games and other tricks that were used in order to land the banish. What this meant was someone can’t just come in and successfully spam knockbacks against a player that knew what to look for (except for extreme circumstances where it’s just so unexpected, which can work too). When it came to using banish, there were a lot of things to think about, and generally you had to plan it out methodically.

For example, you had to do things like root the other person so they can’t dodge, and cancel-cast your banish to make the other person blow a cooldown like blind, block, or invulnerability. Then you would do it again when they didn’t have that cooldown available. Or maybe you used a teleport skill mid cast, and came from somewhere unexpected, or maybe you tried to ‘count’ the other guy’s dodges (just kidding you can’t do that in this game), or had good timing with a trebuchet.

Beyond that, it was difficult to focus on a knockback battle while also focusing on what other people around you are doing. To the point where, yeah, you might tunnel vision onto the knockback battle, but you didn’t really do anything else and you lost that team fight. Again, this is a good thing because just like reaction time being a difference maker, so is your ability to focus on multiple things. These allow strengths and weaknesses from players to shine for different roles and play styles. For example, I’m pretty slow and would most likely make a horrible player when playing a backstab thief, however I do ok when it comes to playing a support guardian because I evolved my version of it into something that fits my strengths. Similarly, playing a spirit ranger fit my strengths of hitting random buttons at random times.

Anyways, when knockbacks are instant, or just very fast, you don’t get any of this. Literally all of what I’ve written so far just gets thrown out the window when knockbacks are instant. Because now you get both sides randomly blowing CC and anti-CC (dodges, stability, blinds, etc.) making it incredibly frustrating for both sides instead of rewarding for anyone except the person that only cares about being the best. But I guess the latter is what’s intended because it’s in line with how most of the dominant builds are played? Because honestly that is the core issue for basically everything that any competitive player has ever complained about. Mindlessness and spamming. This is why the game is not popular, and this is why no amount of rewards, seasons, poorly funded tournaments, build choices, or new game modes will turn this game into a good pvp game.

You have to deal with the mindlessness/spamming issue as if it’s your #1 priority, which is not something that has been done in the past. Instead, balance has been revolved around overall class/build representation, and how ‘cool’ and ‘powerful’ things are. And the people in charge of these decisions need to understand past mistakes, otherwise the potential of this game will not even come close to being met.

All the hard work that is being put into the game via implementing seasons, custom arenas, rankings, skins, the gem shop, tournaments, managing the community, etc. is basically futile, and not dealing with this issue of mindlessness/spamming is just slapping the face of all of these dedicated, hard working employees that love this game. Everything that they’re doing would be exponentially more effective if the issue of mindlessness/spamming was actually acknowledged and dealt with.

Sorry but it’s just the truth. And I say this not because I hate you, but because I would love to see this game be fun to play again.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

p.s. Automated Response is pretty dumb too.

Josh Davis.6015:

So, let’s say we wanted to look into decap engineer, where would we start? I’ve heard a few different opinions on the topic, and I have a few opinions of my own as someone who has played against decap in top 100 rated solo/team arena games and also played the build myself.

In the same way that it was difficult to look at the September ’13 Hambow warrior and point out a single specific key to its strength, I think decap engineer is much the same.

I think it’s important to understand the areas in our game where decap engineer is strong, and then go from there:

• Conquest
  • Situations where communication is difficult (solo arena)
  • Against teams that have difficulty rotating appropriately

So, with the above in mind, what are some ‘low-hanging fruit’ type of suggestions for changing the way decap engineer works, without affecting existing builds unrelated to decap? That is to say, suggestions that would not require significant amounts of development time to implement.

We’ve already seen a few threads on PW, so I’ll focus on decap for now. ^^

How about bringing Defiant to players as a build option?

For example:

Global pvp rule, players gain 1 stack of defiant when cc’d.

Sigil of Defiance: Gain one stack of Defiant when you swap weapons (x cooldown)

Rune of Defiance: +toughness, +(benefit when stunned, e.g. fury and/or retaliation), gain n stacks of Defiant when you break out of stun (x cooldown)

Now, I have no idea how well those ideas are balanced, but it’d help players build against cc-heavy playstyles like decap and pistolwhip. As far as I can tell, all the tools to make it work exist in the game code, unless defiant has some clause which makes it disappear if a character doesn’t have unshakeable.

capnkewl.5019:

People are obviously playing the game wrong, I still see more hambow warriors and minion mancers than either of these specs.

What does that have to do with something being overly strong? Because there are more warriors than engineers (and thieves? not sure) doesn’t suddenly make it less of a problem once you encounter it.

Player: “Oh no, a pistol whip thief.. wait. It’s not a problem, because there are more warriors than pistol whip thieves out there”. Logic 1000000000+

The simplest solution is always the best. Make the points bigger.

If Decap Engi is so strong, then it would be inefficient to remove KBs and cooldowns, but if points were bigger then only a good Decap Engi taking advantage of a noob could own a point like that can now.

It’s been suggested for months that points should be bigger so that challenging them should be more about combat strength than your build’s CC.

Maybe if the Devs were reading intelligent suggestions instead of the ones with the most responses they would have figured this out.

you could nerf a couple knockbacks to stuns/dazes…

Just make sure you leave my Quaggington Turret Decap alone, Josh! I made a turret decap specifically to avoid nerfs, and can’t imagine how the community would react to turret nerfs. Why have 3 knockbacks when you can have 7 on shorter cooldowns?

For reference: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/PvP-Quaggington-s-Turret-Death-Decap/first#post3787989

For Decap engi, I think that increasing the time needed for decap to start when a player leaves the zone. If players had 1 or 2 seconds to come back to the zone before the decap could start, that kind of build wouldn’t exactly work.

Maybe I am wrong tho.

Josh Davis.6015:

So, let’s say we wanted to look into decap engineer, where would we start? I’ve heard a few different opinions on the topic, and I have a few opinions of my own as someone who has played against decap in top 100 rated solo/team arena games and also played the build myself.

In the same way that it was difficult to look at the September ’13 Hambow warrior and point out a single specific key to its strength, I think decap engineer is much the same.

I think it’s important to understand the areas in our game where decap engineer is strong, and then go from there:

• Conquest
  • Situations where communication is difficult (solo arena)
  • Against teams that have difficulty rotating appropriately

So, with the above in mind, what are some ‘low-hanging fruit’ type of suggestions for changing the way decap engineer works, without affecting existing builds unrelated to decap? That is to say, suggestions that would not require significant amounts of development time to implement.

We’ve already seen a few threads on PW, so I’ll focus on decap for now. ^^

You are planning to change engi (for good mostly) when played against other classes when literally there are 3 post on the engi sub-forum where you have ignored the kit problems and how you have not given us our 5% boost that makes us 10 % weaker than any of the ther classes on pve and WvW.
You are starting to plan ways on how to nerf engis because you’ve played against 1 build and loose when there are builds that have been on the meta for months and only until now you are planning to change because only until now you’re hearing the community.
I mean, what do I know, any statement I make will offend you and my comment will e erased and my account will be terminated but still, this is really unfair against the small 10% engi community that you’ve ignred for 18 months and now you will nerf.

Actually, looking at the mechanics for launch (given that most decap engies use it) I think that it should be the one to be looked at. As a control effect, Launch is annoying not only because it has a direction modifier, but it also has a time component in which your character is knocked down. That’s what makes it painful – you are CC’ed in two perspectives – you get pushed away from your location, and at the same time when you land you still have to wait for your character to get up.

Maybe a change to launch would be better?

Josh Davis.6015:

So, let’s say we wanted to look into decap engineer, where would we start? I’ve heard a few different opinions on the topic, and I have a few opinions of my own as someone who has played against decap in top 100 rated solo/team arena games and also played the build myself.

In the same way that it was difficult to look at the September ’13 Hambow warrior and point out a single specific key to its strength, I think decap engineer is much the same.

I think it’s important to understand the areas in our game where decap engineer is strong, and then go from there:

• Conquest
  • Situations where communication is difficult (solo arena)
  • Against teams that have difficulty rotating appropriately

So, with the above in mind, what are some ‘low-hanging fruit’ type of suggestions for changing the way decap engineer works, without affecting existing builds unrelated to decap? That is to say, suggestions that would not require significant amounts of development time to implement.

We’ve already seen a few threads on PW, so I’ll focus on decap for now. ^^

It’s not about looking for a key to it’s strenght, it’s about creating a weakeness where it seems there isn’t one.

Change Automated Response and you will see them drop to condis.

I think the problem with decap engineer in general is the insane survivability by combining several key traits. By changing some of the traits around to make them less bunkery they would be killable much easier since most decap engineers sacrifice a lot of defensive stuff like Toolkit to decap.

In addition to AR, the protection on crit and reduction to damage when stunned and so on all stack and creates a situation where an engineer can have 25% hp yet be tankier than a warrior. Perhaps moving some traits to Grandmaster level would alleviate some of this? Or maybe increasing the ICD of the protection on crit trait?

I disagree with making points bigger simply because a bunker banner warrior would be the new ‘decap engy’ if every point was like the center of foefire.

fishball.7204:

I think the problem with decap engineer in general is the insane survivability by combining several key traits. By changing some of the traits around to make them less bunkery they would be killable much easier since most decap engineers sacrifice a lot of defensive stuff like Toolkit to decap.

In addition to AR, the protection on crit and reduction to damage when stunned and so on all stack and creates a situation where an engineer can have 25% hp yet be tankier than a warrior. Perhaps moving some traits to Grandmaster level would alleviate some of this? Or maybe increasing the ICD of the protection on crit trait?

I disagree with making points bigger simply because a bunker banner warrior would be the new ‘decap engy’ if every point was like the center of foefire.

You don’t want to overnerf the abilities that the build has. Give it one weakness and that should be enough to put it down.

Josh Davis.6015:

So, let’s say we wanted to look into decap engineer, where would we start? I’ve heard a few different opinions on the topic, and I have a few opinions of my own as someone who has played against decap in top 100 rated solo/team arena games and also played the build myself.

In the same way that it was difficult to look at the September ’13 Hambow warrior and point out a single specific key to its strength, I think decap engineer is much the same.

I think it’s important to understand the areas in our game where decap engineer is strong, and then go from there:

• Conquest
  • Situations where communication is difficult (solo arena)
  • Against teams that have difficulty rotating appropriately

So, with the above in mind, what are some ‘low-hanging fruit’ type of suggestions for changing the way decap engineer works, without affecting existing builds unrelated to decap? That is to say, suggestions that would not require significant amounts of development time to implement.

We’ve already seen a few threads on PW, so I’ll focus on decap for now. ^^

Dirame.8521:

fishball.7204:

I think the problem with decap engineer in general is the insane survivability by combining several key traits. By changing some of the traits around to make them less bunkery they would be killable much easier since most decap engineers sacrifice a lot of defensive stuff like Toolkit to decap.

In addition to AR, the protection on crit and reduction to damage when stunned and so on all stack and creates a situation where an engineer can have 25% hp yet be tankier than a warrior. Perhaps moving some traits to Grandmaster level would alleviate some of this? Or maybe increasing the ICD of the protection on crit trait?

I disagree with making points bigger simply because a bunker banner warrior would be the new ‘decap engy’ if every point was like the center of foefire.

You don’t want to overnerf the abilities that the build has. Give it one weakness and that should be enough to put it down.

Ceimash has the right of it. When nerfing a build, do not only consider the strengths of it, but also consider introducing a weakness where there previously was none. Given the multitude of Engineer pushes and the importance they play as part of Engineer survival and active defense through control it would be…suboptimal to do a balance pass reworking Engineer pushes as they could all be potentially used in a decap Engineer build.

Nerfing one push would simply make Engineers gravitate to the next one, and the next, and the next after that. In the mean time, Engineer survivability through range control and enemy displacement would become increasingly tenuous – all the while reducing the profession’s viability overall.

Removing the condition immunity on the other hand, would decrease decap Engineer’s TTK massively. JinDaVikk’s build running Med Kit, Throw Mine, Flamethrower, Toolkit, Rifle hinges upon the condition immunity at 25% HP because it has extremely weak condition clear. Similarly, most decap variations – even those running Healing Turret – are still easily overloaded with condis without the presence of AR.

The following threads should be instructive:
Decap Engi

RazaC’s thread on decap Engineer

In terms of removing the condition immunity, how about finally introducing mechanics to Engineer that boost condition clear without reliance upon Elixirs or Passives? Examples include:

• Your next attack after using a Toolbelt skill transfers 1 condition. At 25% health, instead transfer 2 conditions.
  • This removes the immunity whilst adding active play to Engineers and retaining the 25% HP trigger. Would have semi-negative synergy with Cleansing Formula 409, but then again, decap builds wouldn’t use Elixirs and it is builds that don’t use Elixirs that have weak condition clear.

• To make it stronger, simply remove the on next attack to remove dodging the proc and simply make it proc on toolbelt use to convert 1 condition to a Boon.
  • This gives compelling competition to HGH whilst retaining the Boons flavour of the Alchemy line.

Regardless of whatever is implemented, please remove the condition immunity. Hard counters do not belong in any competitive environment without introducing abuse potential.

Much of Decap Engi’s strength comes from the design of PvP itself as opposed to the build. Small capture points makes it easy for them to continuously push people off points. The fact that a single enemy can deny the cap from 2+ other players doesn’t make sense. In most conquest games the team with the most players on point start to take it. If there are still enemies on it it will drain slower but still drain.

If points were large enough so that if you fight in the middle getting pushed back wouldn’t remove you from the point and having 2 players overrode the 1 then the viability of Decap Engis would be greatly reduced w/o touching the build itself.

Another thing about the capture points, they are often very boring in design. There’s nothing on them to break Line of Sight or require some sort of special approach. I’m not saying I want things as crazy as the stuff on Trollhammer but if Graveyard had actual graves or you had to actually go inside a Mansion or Windmill maps would be much more interesting outside of their main gimmick.

I love my decap engi! Most fun I have had in PvP tbh lol #noshame.
And yes it is due to how useful this particular build is in Cap Point game modes (medium-sized cap points) and at the same time being level over 9000 trolly.
Maybe decreasing the force of these pushing skills? :o
I don’t think it needs any other nerfs than that, because like BurrTheKing mentioned, “Much of Decap Engi’s strength comes from the design of PvP itself as opposed to the build. Small capture points makes it easy for them to continuously push people off points.”
But let’s see how the feature patch does to us decap engis first

-Calcium (r53)

i can see wheres hes coming from but complete immunity?maybe you can like lower the base to 15% and remove condis every 2-3 secs? that way they wouldn’t be completely unkillable if you can avoid the knockback or something idk

People find a spec to complain about every few weeks. How is this any different?
Seems to me someone found a new way to play in PvP, people have no idea how to deal with it so they just run ahead and whine on the forums.

It’s so weird, though, how every time that happens, it’s the design’s fault and your approach to dealing with it is absolutely logical and flawless.

At first, you should stop adding these “100% immunity” Skills/Traits!
Its not good for the game, if only one trait or skill, can neutralize a whole build or in the case of Warriors and Engineers, to survive alone against a group of 5 or more players and this for several minutes.

GW1 have a cap at 75% and this is good, because it’s dont allow classes to dominate others, but keep helpful.

I hope you will do the same in GW2 and add a cap at 75%, for a better, more balanced game and fairer game.

We’re only good for decapping after all…
Put us in a fight where capping is out of the question and we’re pretty much meh.
So making changes to engis just to tone these decap builds down is going to be a challenge.

Just send a blinding thief or stability war/guard down our way and that should likely fix the problem. Sometimes. If you have great timing or luck.

jayvux.4128:

We’re only good for decapping after all…
Put us in a fight where capping is out of the question and we’re pretty much meh.
So making changes to engis just to tone these decap builds down is going to be a challenge.

Just send a blinding thief or stability war/guard down our way and that should likely fix the problem. Sometimes. If you have great timing or luck.

I do find that on Warrior Skullcracker can somewhat lockdown a Decap after I force the Elixir S, but it’s still not fast and I need someone else because every time I stun I give them Protection. Like I said before it wouldn’t be annoying at all if 2 players were able to cap over the Engi.

Josh Davis.6015:

So, let’s say we wanted to look into decap engineer, where would we start? I’ve heard a few different opinions on the topic, and I have a few opinions of my own as someone who has played against decap in top 100 rated solo/team arena games and also played the build myself.

In the same way that it was difficult to look at the September ’13 Hambow warrior and point out a single specific key to its strength, I think decap engineer is much the same.

I think it’s important to understand the areas in our game where decap engineer is strong, and then go from there:

• Conquest
  • Situations where communication is difficult (solo arena)
  • Against teams that have difficulty rotating appropriately

So, with the above in mind, what are some ‘low-hanging fruit’ type of suggestions for changing the way decap engineer works, without affecting existing builds unrelated to decap? That is to say, suggestions that would not require significant amounts of development time to implement.

We’ve already seen a few threads on PW, so I’ll focus on decap for now. ^^

1. Insta CC-s with low cooldowns – “offensive” capability.
2. AR+toolkit block+overall bunker survivability – defensive capability.
You need to remove something from this list.
And for the love of God, do something with tiny asura problem.

Josh Davis.6015:

So, let’s say we wanted to look into decap engineer, where would we start? I’ve heard a few different opinions on the topic, and I have a few opinions of my own as someone who has played against decap in top 100 rated solo/team arena games and also played the build myself.

In the same way that it was difficult to look at the September ’13 Hambow warrior and point out a single specific key to its strength, I think decap engineer is much the same.

I think it’s important to understand the areas in our game where decap engineer is strong, and then go from there:

• Conquest
  • Situations where communication is difficult (solo arena)
  • Against teams that have difficulty rotating appropriately

So, with the above in mind, what are some ‘low-hanging fruit’ type of suggestions for changing the way decap engineer works, without affecting existing builds unrelated to decap? That is to say, suggestions that would not require significant amounts of development time to implement.

We’ve already seen a few threads on PW, so I’ll focus on decap for now. ^^

Nerf AR; let them suffer the full wrath of the condition meta like their dps brethren….

The only justifiable reason for condition classes is to prevent stalemates, let them shine here; change AR to a 25% reduction in condition duration (as engi will take this with melandru runes)…

Nerf AR and other passive hard counters, Evade spam, CC Spam, and sustained healing.

Nerf Condi duration

Majority of Balance achieved. -> Things brought more in line, watch meta shift and then focus from there.

I am really happy that you are willing to look at decap engineers Josh. There have been some threads already on decap engineer. I made one of those threads and it is constructive but got buried in a couple of day’s. I’ll link to the thread here and also bump it. The thread is on the balance sub forums.

Source: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/PvP-Decap-Engineer-In-Depth-Analysis

Please use the forums history search. I, myself and multiple others drew a big red line under engineer months ago. It was entirely highlighted that the only reason this didn’t seem to be the issue it was becoming was because engineer was largely unpopular, so you didn’t see it much. There has been multiple responses about decap/rifle builds. The boon duration’s are too long, they are too easily repeatable, there is too much swiftness/vigor/regeneration and auto response is entirely an unsuitable trait to have on any profession. When this is coupled with supply drop, turret and/or nade/bomb spamming that only requires you to play the area, not the person directly aggressing you..where water fields and smoke fields can also be applied the problem clearly presents itself. TOO MUCH.

The slow and irregular balance reviews only allowed players the time to see one, do one, teach one with engineer and allow it to consolidate before anything could be done. This will only be continued in future because the big balance patch is entirely focused on what was envogue 3 months ago and not enough attention was paid to engineer 5 months ago when the first threads starting appearing about them needing to be bought into check or they will cause major problems in the future.

50% of the problem is the wild amount of boons and their duration’s and pure spamming of ‘stuff’ and ‘clutter’ every where. The remainder 50% of the problem is that no attention was detail was paid when it could have been checked before it started ruining the PvP experience for everyone much like hambow did for months before anything was done. However, in fairness when hambow was nerfed reducing burst mastery did affect every other build that used it. Nerfing longbow because it gained too much adrenaline..well, we all saw how adrenaline it did gained was 0..and moving unsuspecting foe was basically nothing more than trying to make the hambow build a little harder to point spread..Again the real answer was not investigated. The entire hammer weapon skills needs to be changed. Much the same as berserker/crit damage is currently being changed from the ground up. The entire weapon was the cause, so everything else got nerfed but the weapon itself.

Josh Davis.6015:

So, with the above in mind, what are some ‘low-hanging fruit’ type of suggestions for changing the way decap engineer works, without affecting existing builds unrelated to decap? That is to say, suggestions that would not require significant amounts of development time to implement.

We’ve already seen a few threads on PW, so I’ll focus on decap for now. ^^

The best “economical” solution i heard was:

• Make a small fence at each point, preventing pushback

Other strong fixes:

• removal of Immunity Its the only thing keeping it alive for the too long periods time, no 1v1 and too long 1v2 survival, complete no fun counter to even the almighty condimeta, which forces everyone to adjust builds, but not this one. ok enough about AR, your reading same stuff 100x over. Just keep in mind that you can fix 1 trait and dont have to redesign anything else

Other “bandage” fixes

• knockDOWN instead of push on flame, maybe rifle too
• smaller distance knockback
• cast time to rifle & flamethrower = 1s like guardian hammer#4 banish , no more instant smallcat
• 20s CD to rifle and/or flame , engie got lots of low CDs