Guild Wars 2

..is these traits:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Incendiary_Powder
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dhuumfire

Burning is about 6-7 stacks of bleeding. Being able to mantain such a strong condition for such an high amount of time is what makes condition builds that strong.
It is not casual that conditions became OP from worthless all of a sudden on Necromancers right when burning was added to it.

I suggest to make burning more of a DPS help on sustain build more than the main damage output of Condition builds.
For instance, Burning on Guardian, Elementalist and Warrior is well placed.
Burning on Engineer, Necromancer or Ranger is too strong.

The problem of those traits is that you’re gonna get that burning on you, no matter what. You can’t dodge that.

dhuumfire is 2 3/4 seconds … and you get no announcement when it procs, so you might miss some procs on your main target cause aoes could apply it to spirits, clones, wrong target etc. means you don´t have the 2 second burn on your target for 20 seconds

Undodgeable traits are a problem, but they’re not why conditions are OP. Conditions have no secondary requirement to make them numerically efficient damage that cannot be mitigated without completely removing them. Just grab some condition damage stat points and you’re good to go.

Conditions are about attrition and damage over time.
Being able to mantain such a bursty condition permanently on already condition-heavy build is the issue.

Burning is ok if you can mantain that for 2s, or even 4 on a 20s cooldown on condition heavy builds. It is insanely OP if you can mantain that indefinitely.

Dhuumfire was already nerfed, but it is an example of what I meant. That trait shouldn’t have been introduced.

An example of well made burning is Throw Torch.
Clear animation, dodgeable and no way to get 100% uptime outside of PvE.

Honestly, I’d be fine with the removal of Incendiary Powder if they took out Dhuumfire, and changed the way the burning from Sun Spirit worked.

OH torch on ranger/burn trap and bomb kit burn are pretty balanced imo.

With the new cd buff to Mesmer scepter, having burn on staff autoattack can be pretty ridiculous in condition builds, when its stacked on top of 14 bleeds, 10 torment stacks, and high confusion stacks

When the rumors of Dhuumfire arised, I said that necromancers would be the new fotm class and engis would be replaced. People laughed at me back then but look what happened.

I agree that these traits need to be taken out but with one demand. Give engineers more access to burning or more bleeds. Right now, an engineer can barely put any bleeds stacks on while a necromancer can get 6-10 just by auto attacking. I never found incendiary power to be that OP on engi because we didn’t have much else damaging conditions but a necromancer with all the bleeds they have and the occasional fear, it’s very powerful.

vinceftw.5086:

When the rumors of Dhuumfire arised, I said that necromancers would be the new fotm class and engis would be replaced. People laughed at me back then but look what happened.

I agree that these traits need to be taken out but with one demand. Give engineers more access to burning or more bleeds. Right now, an engineer can barely put any bleeds stacks on while a necromancer can get 6-10 just by auto attacking. I never found incendiary power to be that OP on engi because we didn’t have much else damaging conditions but a necromancer with all the bleeds they have and the occasional fear, it’s very powerful.

Actually, Burning is as OP on engineer as it is on Necromancers.
Engineers have access to confusion, easy bleeding on Granade Kit and Shrapnel, easy poison while also having way more Power scaling on condition sets compared to Necromancers. Plus, they can mantain burning permanently.

They needs perma-burning to go as much as on Necromancers, otherwise we’ll end up to the pre-june patch, where the only viable condition build is on Engineers (and now also Rangers).

Grenades are not easy to land, not at all. If a engineer can stack you full of bleeds, he deserves it. I don’t mind incendiary power to go but we need something else in return then. It’s a lot harder to stack damaging conditions on engineer than on necro. I literally can melt people with necro due to burn, 7+ bleeds and fear. You can’t do that on engineer unless you get 10+ confusion on someone and he keeps attacking.

Grenades are not easy to land, not at all. If a engineer can stack you full of bleeds, he deserves it. I don’t mind incendiary power to go but we need something else in return then. It’s a lot harder to stack damaging conditions on engineer than on necro. I literally can melt people with necro due to burn, 7+ bleeds and fear. You can’t do that on engineer unless you get 10+ confusion on someone and he keeps attacking.

I think I agree with the OP’s assessment. Conditions were not a problem until the patch that gave Necromancers Dhuumfire, along with a host of other changes. Therefore, it is most likely that the culprit for these powerful condition builds rests within those changes. After all, it isn’t every condition build that’s the problem. Who complains about condition Elementalists? Condition Guardians?

vinceftw.5086:

Grenades are not easy to land, not at all. If a engineer can stack you full of bleeds, he deserves it. I don’t mind incendiary power to go but we need something else in return then. It’s a lot harder to stack damaging conditions on engineer than on necro. I literally can melt people with necro due to burn, 7+ bleeds and fear. You can’t do that on engineer unless you get 10+ confusion on someone and he keeps attacking.

Grenades are easy to land in an sPvP environment.
Just sit far enough and spam them on node, where people are most likely sitting on if they want to get a cap.

You can melt people with engineer too with ease. Two casts of Shrapnel granade with Shrapnel on a node and you get at least 7 AoE bleeds for 12s (even more in real situations, considering the condition duration bonus).

Plus, Engineers have access to AoE burning and confusion on bomb kit too. You can easily mantain burning permanently with no problem, while you can’t on Necromancer.

Not to mention that engineers are far more survivable.

Let’s be more honest with the use of the word “easy.” “Easy” is using an auto-facing attack, teleport, large AoE, etc. Even burn procs aren’t easy for engineer or necro because their burn is likely to proc on a spirit without careful ICD counting, management of AoE, and luck.

Also, let’s be more honest about how effective dhuumfire necros actually are. They’re a decent build that you see in what, 50%-70% of tournament teams? Bomb/nade engies might be in 30%-50% of tournament teams. You would never see two of either build in any serious team, and you’d very rarely see both professions on the same team. Based on tournament desirability, they’re behind guardians, warriors, rangers, and thieves.

I’m fine with re-thinking burn procs, but we should be more accurate with accusations and also more honest about how powerful builds that use them actually are.

Engineer’s bombs got a whole lot easier to land, especially on a point. It used to require some semblance of skill to actually zone someone and land condis. Now you just stay near the middle and hit 100% of the point. Way too much condi and power pressure for something so easy to do.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Let’s be more honest with the use of the word “easy.” “Easy” is using an auto-facing attack, teleport, large AoE, etc. Even burn procs aren’t easy for engineer or necro because their burn is likely to proc on a spirit without careful ICD counting, management of AoE, and luck.

Also, let’s be more honest about how effective dhuumfire necros actually are. They’re a decent build that you see in what, 50%-70% of tournament teams? Bomb/nade engies might be in 30%-50% of tournament teams. You would never see two of either build in any serious team, and you’d very rarely see both professions on the same team. Based on tournament desirability, they’re behind guardians, warriors, rangers, and thieves.

I’m fine with re-thinking burn procs, but we should be more accurate with accusations and also more honest about how powerful builds that use them actually are.

This topic is about the condition problem.
There is no point to move the focus away from the issue this topic is aiming to address.

I’m saying that burning is a really strong condition and being able to permanently mantain it along with bleed stacks, poison, confusion or terror is not a good idea balance-wise and it is probably what makes conditions that much out of control

Easy or not easy doesn’t matters in this topic, it is a subjective matter anyway.

Actually you’re going to see more bomb Engis than before because of the buff they made to the radii. They are useful to both Burst and Condi builds so expect that trend to continue.

Condition builds on Necro, Engi, and Ranger usually forgo stability in favor of more pressure, so you’re going to want to bring a variety of CC to deal with them. This is what created the Warrior meta and if you apply that to your team comp vs. them you’ll be more successful.

Ex. Halting Strike Mesmers, Hammer/LB Warriors, Rifle Bomb Engis, Mace/Shield Hammer Warriors, etc.

sorrow.2364:

NevirSayDie.6235:

Let’s be more honest with the use of the word “easy.” “Easy” is using an auto-facing attack, teleport, large AoE, etc. Even burn procs aren’t easy for engineer or necro because their burn is likely to proc on a spirit without careful ICD counting, management of AoE, and luck.

Also, let’s be more honest about how effective dhuumfire necros actually are. They’re a decent build that you see in what, 50%-70% of tournament teams? Bomb/nade engies might be in 30%-50% of tournament teams. You would never see two of either build in any serious team, and you’d very rarely see both professions on the same team. Based on tournament desirability, they’re behind guardians, warriors, rangers, and thieves.

I’m fine with re-thinking burn procs, but we should be more accurate with accusations and also more honest about how powerful builds that use them actually are.

This topic is about the condition problem.
There is no point to move the focus away from the issue this topic is aiming to address.

I’m saying that burning is a really strong condition and being able to permanently mantain it along with bleed stacks, poison, confusion or terror is not a good idea balance-wise and it is probably what makes conditions that much out of control

Easy or not easy doesn’t matters in this topic, it is a subjective matter anyway.

there is. esp cause u create builds that nobody plays to prove some theoretical point. if i read your argumentation shrapnel nade has no cooldown, it is super easy to spam them from far away and then the engi is suddenly on the node to place bombs to maintain permaburning… play engi is all i can say, then u will see what u are talking is wrong.

sorrow.2364:

Easy or not easy doesn’t matters in this topic, it is a subjective matter anyway.

Right, that’s the same thing I was trying to say.

On permanent burning: necros can’t come close, even if they land every dhuumfire proc on a player character (unlikely). It’s why necros aren’t that great right now. Engineers have more burn application options at much greater risk. Isn’t that what we all wanted (risk/reward gameplay)?

Man, you guys are totally letting Sun Spirit fall under the radar.

Sun Spirit is responsible for like, 3 times the burning procs than Incendiary Powder and Dhuumfire combined.

Look at this video that Ostricheggs posted a bit over 2 weeks ago:

http://www.twitch.tv/ostricheggs/c/3023189

Basically, you see a Ranger who’s in a comatose state (full stunlock), and then you keel over and die after taking 7,645 in burning (among other things, which I’m not discussing now) just for the Sun Spirit A.I existing nearby and MORE A.I proccing it.

Ya Sun Spirit is huge. If that thing is up during a teamfight you can stack about 25 seconds of burning on a focused target.

Add that with Virtue of Justice for even more burning afterward for lolz

I’m kind of disappointed they didn’t bring the condi stacks cap into the patch but it’s w/e.

it’s ridiculous when you compare Incendiary Powder to http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning_Precision

hooma.9642:

there is. esp cause u create builds that nobody plays to prove some theoretical point. if i read your argumentation shrapnel nade has no cooldown, it is super easy to spam them from far away and then the engi is suddenly on the node to place bombs to maintain permaburning… play engi is all i can say, then u will see what u are talking is wrong.

Shrapnel Grenade has 5s cooldown untraited with 20% reduction. That’s 4s with cooldown reduction.

Shrapnel Grenade is 12s bleed, with 30% condition duration increase coming from explosives it’s 15s of bleeding, which means that mantaining 7 stacks of bleeding from grenades alone isn’t that hard after all.

That said, I refuse to believe that you think that it is hard to spam grenades on a node from 1200 (1500 if traited) is hard. Still, the burning from the incendiary powder procs even at 1200 range.
On close range, you can mantain it permanently, but this doesn’t mean that it is less broken.

I forgot to mention Sun Spirit in the OP, but it fits the description of what I’m blaming perfectly.

sorrow.2364:

Burning is about 6-7 stacks of bleeding.

what happens when you apply more than 6-7 stacks of bleeding?

hint: don’t ask engi’s they can’t tell you. their stacks top out around 9. you might ask a Condi-Axe warrior, or a Necro, or a Ranger though.

You guys are giving Burn too much credit. Burns top out around 700 dmg/sec. Currently Bleeds reach well above 1k/sec with the same stats. There are also copious bleeds that last longer than the longest Burn duration. Burn is no slouch, but it’s not the sole culprit.

Are 100% crit chance procs good game design? Not in my opinion, it’s just another way of saying “indefensible”. Their reliability diminishes the more enemies that are present as well. Personally, I’d like to see the proc chance localized to single skills, and given some sort of UI indicator that the proc is available, and receives a full CD whether the hit is successful or not. That way it is able to be more reliably used and adds the appropriate counter-play.

hackks.3687:

sorrow.2364:

Burning is about 6-7 stacks of bleeding.

what happens when you apply more than 6-7 stacks of bleeding?

hint: don’t ask engi’s they can’t tell you. their stacks top out around 9. you might ask a Condi-Axe warrior, or a Necro, or a Ranger though.

You guys are giving Burn too much credit. Burns top out around 700 dmg/sec. Currently Bleeds reach well above 1k/sec with the same stats. There are also copious bleeds that last longer than the longest Burn duration. Burn is no slouch, but it’s not the sole culprit.

Are 100% crit chance procs good game design? Not in my opinion, it’s just another way of saying “indefensible”. Their reliability diminishes the more enemies that are present as well. Personally, I’d like to see the proc chance localized to single skills, and given some sort of UI indicator that the proc is available, and receives a full CD whether the hit is successful or not. That way it is able to be more reliably used and adds the appropriate counter-play.

Yeah, now add those 700 dmg/s on the 6-9 stacks of bleed an engi can mantain. That’s quite a lot of damage.

That’s not an issue of engineer alone, ranger can do pretty much the same with Sun Spirit but, at least, you can kill the spirit and prevent any burning application.

Necromancers before patch had no burning at all and their conditions were pretty much balanced. They weren’t able to burst someone down but at the same time their pressure was pretty good, sad thing is that engineer and ranger did better at conditions because of… well, burning.

Sorrow usually I don’t post on condi hate posts but honestly your partially wrong here….

Engi maintain 6-9 bleed stacks? Um.. have you seen the necro auto attack? Atleast with engi bleed nade is the closest thing to a skill shot in the game… As for the burn….If you remove the engi burn proc you know what will happen?

Shaman (settlers) ammy bunker engis with bombs. We will still have the same burning ( may take flamethrower) and we will be harder to kill.

Don’t complain about engi’s and condition damage. Start at the problem of cripple/chill/immobilize/vuln/etc making it hard to remove the burn/poison stacks.
This would cause other issues as A-net has buffed condition removal everywhere.

This thread isn’t helping anyone.

JinDaVikk.7291:

Sorrow usually I don’t post on condi hate posts but honestly your partially wrong here….

Engi maintain 6-9 bleed stacks? Um.. have you seen the necro auto attack? Atleast with engi bleed nade is the closest thing to a skill shot in the game… As for the burn….If you remove the engi burn proc you know what will happen?

Shaman (settlers) ammy bunker engis with bombs. We will still have the same burning ( may take flamethrower) and we will be harder to kill.

Don’t complain about engi’s and condition damage. Start at the problem of cripple/chill/immobilize/vuln/etc making it hard to remove the burn/poison stacks.
This would cause other issues as A-net has buffed condition removal everywhere.

This thread isn’t helping anyone.

The necro autoattack can barely mantain 4-5 bleed stack on single target, assuming that you are autoattacking the whole time.
Using another skill or dodging will bring down the mantained bleeds in a second.

Engis with bombs have less access to bleeding and they are forced to be in close range. In that case, burning makes sense still it doesn’t stacks up with bleeding too. That’s a step in the right direction.

Dhuumfire is about 2k damage every 11 seconds or so. As much damage as a thief auto or ranger pet crit.

~180 dps. Not what I’d call a gamebreaking grandmaster trait.

Mammoth.1975:

Dhuumfire is about 2k damage every 11 seconds or so. As much damage as a thief auto or ranger pet crit.

~180 dps. Not what I’d call a gamebreaking grandmaster trait.

The problem of burning on Necromancer is different from burning on engineer.
While Engineer needs just to have burning reduced and making it impossible to mantain permanently, Necromancer needs it removed because they already have access to a bursty condition, which is Fear (traited with terror).

The overall DPS of Dhuumfire is not that much, but the bursty capability when it triggers along with Terror is extremely high for condition builds.
On a time window of 3 seconds, Terror+Burning deals 5k damage alone, without condisering eventual bleed stacks of poison.

How is it ok that condition build, which are by definition pressure oriented, are capable to deal such an high burst damage?

Wanna here something strong about the root issue of conditions ?
They should not be a primary damage source in first place !

Thats one of the core issues of this game, htey wanted to build a new, more generic trinity: dps, control, support instead of tank, healer, dps.
Fact is that we got control (a lot and spammable), support (used to be almost zero, at least its getting some attention recently), direct DPS, condition DPS.

Its not a trinity anymore, cause there are 2 main source of damage, since conditions doesnt just put pressure, sometimes they kill faster than direct damage.

Conditions can be:
> position control : cripple, chill, immobilize, stun, daze.
> dps control: weaknes, blind.
> dps assist: vulnerability, plus all the cc.
> pressure: poison, confusion, torment

stop.

most of things out of this scheme covers a different role, not conditions’ one.
The game would be a lot easier to balance following this.

Try to check your deaths breakdown, most of the times some conditions will be in top place of the list. Its just wrong, unless the fight really took long, instead, i see that even in a fight of few seconds.

With only pure damage to take into account it would be easier to tone down some classes, like warriors wouldnt need an hard counter to conditions aka berserker stance to be brought back into meta. Condition removals could be almost ‘removed’ from many specs, and could be a particular tool, specific for support builds, (like a water ele could be).

We would have some more defined roles, that any class can cover, but at least it will be more clear: the dpser kills, the bunker is the old tank + some support, the condition applier control targets.

Another fact is that this will never change, cause this means a total rework of their game, since condition damage wouldnt have place (as it should be!).

What a load of nonsense in this thread.

As an Engineer i have plenty of burn as it is, stacking more makes little diffirence to the dps. Burn on a condition build that previously didnt have it might be an issue, but Engineer has had burn since launch.
Infact the whole condition build hasnt really changed since launch, but it only recently became an issue even tough people have played it for well over a year.

Burn is also not nearly as strong as people think. 6xBleed is more damage then a burn. Noticeable more, at 5x is less, but barely. And getting 6+ stacks of Bleed is easy enough for practically all condition builds. Burn isnt nearly a powerful as people seem to believe.
It accounts for a consistent 700dps out of my kitten nal, when landing some bleeds i can get those ticking for over 1k.

And i keep being amazed by people who claim conditions dont need anything but condition damage. You just saw the OP link to you a trait that procs only on crits. You think that trait is going to be usefull if you have ZERO precision?
Ofcourse not! Conditions damage might only scale with condition damage-stat, but the build is dependant on stacking conditions on crits, so it needs precision. Atleast.

And clearing conditions isnt the only way to defend against them. You can dodge/block/evade them, just like direct damage. But with direct damage after that 7k eviscerate hit, you cant do anything about it anymore.
Unlike that condition, which if you failed to avoid it, you can still clear after the fact and avoid it.

Terrahero.9358:

What a load of nonsense in this thread.

As an Engineer i have plenty of burn as it is, stacking more makes little diffirence to the dps. Burn on a condition build that previously didnt have it might be an issue, but Engineer has had burn since launch.
Infact the whole condition build hasnt really changed since launch, but it only recently became an issue even tough people have played it for well over a year.

Burn is also not nearly as strong as people think. 6xBleed is more damage then a burn. Noticeable more, at 5x is less, but barely. And getting 6+ stacks of Bleed is easy enough for practically all condition builds. Burn isnt nearly a powerful as people seem to believe.
It accounts for a consistent 700dps out of my kitten nal, when landing some bleeds i can get those ticking for over 1k.

And i keep being amazed by people who claim conditions dont need anything but condition damage. You just saw the OP link to you a trait that procs only on crits. You think that trait is going to be usefull if you have ZERO precision?
Ofcourse not! Conditions damage might only scale with condition damage-stat, but the build is dependant on stacking conditions on crits, so it needs precision. Atleast.

And clearing conditions isnt the only way to defend against them. You can dodge/block/evade them, just like direct damage. But with direct damage after that 7k eviscerate hit, you cant do anything about it anymore.
Unlike that condition, which if you failed to avoid it, you can still clear after the fact and avoid it.

Flawed logic is flawed.

Engineer had burn since lance, so it means that engineers are fine? What kind of logic is that? Engineer overshadowed Necromancer in condition builds for an huge chunk of time until Necromancer got burning too. They were not fine, as they aren’t fine now.

You know that it isn’t that easy to mantain 6 stacks of bleed as it is to mantain burning, right? Also, do engineer have no bleeding at all? I don’t think so. I spent the whole thread to explain that it isn’t burning itself, but the problem is burning when coupled with bleeding too and the ability to mantain both for a decent amount of time

You don’t need 50% critical chance to make the on crit proc, the precision provided by rabid amulet is more than enough. 25% precision will make any on-crit traits trigger enough times.

As someone who used to play necro fulltime and plays Engy now.

I have to agree that these sorts of traits reflect what is wrong with some condition application atm.

Condition Duration is irrelevant. What gives burning a lot of power is how much application is available.

Application > Cleanse > Duration

If I can pop a 10 second burn every 10 seconds on you, and you have a 5 second cooldown cleanse, guess which is more successful, that burn would never stick (vacuum example here).

If I can proc a 2 second burn every 2 seconds, and you have a 5 second cooldown cleanse, now guess which is more successful.

Traits like this maintain decent uptime burning in way that’s hard to counter or mitigate, because it’s only a 10 second cooldown, and 4-6 second burns are nothing to scoff at in a condition build, even in a non condi build.

There just needs to be more control in the hands of the player, rather than letting the game play itself for you, this includes too much AI.

Engy offhand pistol or Ranger offhand torch for example, has complete control over their burning, and it’s a long duration burning with a decent cooldown which is more like a classic dot that can be countered.

Then you have stuff like Guardians that proc lots of 1 second burns from a bunch of different sources, that’s just free unmitigatable dmg, similar to having a life leech proc on every attack lol.

Chaith.8256:

Man, you guys are totally letting Sun Spirit fall under the radar.

Sun Spirit is responsible for like, 3 times the burning procs than Incendiary Powder and Dhuumfire combined.

Look at this video that Ostricheggs posted a bit over 2 weeks ago:

http://www.twitch.tv/ostricheggs/c/3023189

Basically, you see a Ranger who’s in a comatose state (full stunlock), and then you keel over and die after taking 7,645 in burning (among other things, which I’m not discussing now) just for the Sun Spirit A.I existing nearby and MORE A.I proccing it.

12k hp ele without stability or block, wonders why he dies to a ranger?

stability, focus the spirits, then the ranger and this ranger is dead. (maybe a condi remove after the spirits are dead) this build is counterable, but dont wonder why you can die without defense in seconds. btw the ranger was nearly dead too.

I really don’t think its the burn that is the problem, but a combination of burn + bleeds.

Bleeds can spike damage pretty high with 10+ stacks.

Burn on the otherhand works like a moderate stack of bleeds, I think it was 4 bleeds = 1 burn?…..but as pointed out above, you see burn stack into the 25+ second range…..remember it takes 25+ seconds to see those burn ticks.

The burn is not what is bursting you down, it is the burst of bleed caps “ALONG” with the burn.

When bleed isn’t there, burn is around to provide pressure, then combine that with high bleed stacks and now you have the 1k+ bleed ticks per second as well as the 500-700 burn ticks.

That puts you at 1.5k+ damage a second.

Then factor in that we have a lot of AOE condition spam, so now everyone in that area is getting bursted down with conditions that are readily available to reapply.

Then combine the condition damage with the weapon attacks, you are easily at 2k+ damage a second…meaning most people will die in 5-10 seconds.

All the while, it is more difficult to time dodges and blocks against conditions than it is to avoid the old physical damage burst builds that had visible tells and cooldowns.

sorrow.2364:

For instance, Burning on Guardian, Elementalist and Warrior is well placed.
Burning on Engineer, Necromancer or Ranger is too strong.

This is pretty much correct.

whyme.3281:

Chaith.8256:

Man, you guys are totally letting Sun Spirit fall under the radar.

Sun Spirit is responsible for like, 3 times the burning procs than Incendiary Powder and Dhuumfire combined.

Look at this video that Ostricheggs posted a bit over 2 weeks ago:

http://www.twitch.tv/ostricheggs/c/3023189

Basically, you see a Ranger who’s in a comatose state (full stunlock), and then you keel over and die after taking 7,645 in burning (among other things, which I’m not discussing now) just for the Sun Spirit A.I existing nearby and MORE A.I proccing it.

12k hp ele without stability or block, wonders why he dies to a ranger?

stability, focus the spirits, then the ranger and this ranger is dead. (maybe a condi remove after the spirits are dead) this build is counterable, but dont wonder why you can die without defense in seconds. btw the ranger was nearly dead too.

Completely missing the point.

Just like people missing the point of these traits being bad design versus “nerfing the traits hurts those classes DON’T NERF THEM”

The fact that a squishy ele died to a ranger is completely irrelevant. It’s the fact that passive AI killed said squishy ele w/o the ranger doing anything, it’s not even about spirits/AI being OP or too strong, it’s about the flawed design.

Knote.2904:

whyme.3281:

Chaith.8256:

Man, you guys are totally letting Sun Spirit fall under the radar.

Sun Spirit is responsible for like, 3 times the burning procs than Incendiary Powder and Dhuumfire combined.

Look at this video that Ostricheggs posted a bit over 2 weeks ago:

http://www.twitch.tv/ostricheggs/c/3023189

Basically, you see a Ranger who’s in a comatose state (full stunlock), and then you keel over and die after taking 7,645 in burning (among other things, which I’m not discussing now) just for the Sun Spirit A.I existing nearby and MORE A.I proccing it.

12k hp ele without stability or block, wonders why he dies to a ranger?

stability, focus the spirits, then the ranger and this ranger is dead. (maybe a condi remove after the spirits are dead) this build is counterable, but dont wonder why you can die without defense in seconds. btw the ranger was nearly dead too.

Completely missing the point.

Just like people missing the point of these traits being bad design versus “nerfing the traits hurts those classes DON’T NERF THEM”

Well said.

Think we all can agree that burning should not be allowed to proc on crit for any class.
Its just to powerful of a condition compared to the other damaging conditions.

Either it should have be access to burning OR access to the other damaging conditions.
Should not have been allowed for 1 profession to get burning + other damaging conditions.

Void.4239:

Think we all can agree that burning should not be allowed to proc on crit for any class.
Its just to powerful of a condition compared to the other damaging conditions.

Either it should have be access to burning OR access to the other damaging conditions.
Should not have been allowed for 1 profession to get burning + other damaging conditions.

I actually don’t know if it’s OP or not for Necro’s to have access to burning.

With proper sacrifice to get it perhaps, but it’s bad to have things this strong completely passive.

If they wanted to give Necro access to burning it should’ve just been with torch as a weapon (green fire as well wink wink) with attacks in your control.

Which would also require giving up another offhand for that burning access.

Knote.2904:

Void.4239:

Think we all can agree that burning should not be allowed to proc on crit for any class.
Its just to powerful of a condition compared to the other damaging conditions.

Either it should have be access to burning OR access to the other damaging conditions.
Should not have been allowed for 1 profession to get burning + other damaging conditions.

I actually don’t know if it’s OP or not for Necro’s to have access to burning.

With proper sacrifice to get it perhaps, but it’s bad to have things this strong completely passive.

If they wanted to give Necro access to burning it should’ve just been with torch as a weapon (green fire as well wink wink) with attacks in your control.

Which would also require giving up another offhand for that burning access.

It’s basically a damage buff, although it’s a cover condition for 3 seconds, which is important. Nonetheless, complaining about it being passive is equivalent to complaining about something like http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Honed_Axes being passive. It boils down to the same thing, more damage on crits.

Knote.2904:

Void.4239:

Think we all can agree that burning should not be allowed to proc on crit for any class.
Its just to powerful of a condition compared to the other damaging conditions.

Either it should have be access to burning OR access to the other damaging conditions.
Should not have been allowed for 1 profession to get burning + other damaging conditions.

I actually don’t know if it’s OP or not for Necro’s to have access to burning.

With proper sacrifice to get it perhaps, but it’s bad to have things this strong completely passive.

If they wanted to give Necro access to burning it should’ve just been with torch as a weapon (green fire as well wink wink) with attacks in your control.

Which would also require giving up another offhand for that burning access.

Or they could have added a secondary effect to burning like torment and confusion.

If the target with burning moves , he gets less damage each tick .
( like if you run you kinda putting out the flames ) .
its just a thought to.

Shouldn’t they have a cooldown like most other trait skills?

Mammoth.1975:

Knote.2904:

Void.4239:

Think we all can agree that burning should not be allowed to proc on crit for any class.
Its just to powerful of a condition compared to the other damaging conditions.

Either it should have be access to burning OR access to the other damaging conditions.
Should not have been allowed for 1 profession to get burning + other damaging conditions.

I actually don’t know if it’s OP or not for Necro’s to have access to burning.

With proper sacrifice to get it perhaps, but it’s bad to have things this strong completely passive.

If they wanted to give Necro access to burning it should’ve just been with torch as a weapon (green fire as well wink wink) with attacks in your control.

Which would also require giving up another offhand for that burning access.

It’s basically a damage buff, although it’s a cover condition for 3 seconds, which is important. Nonetheless, complaining about it being passive is equivalent to complaining about something like http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Honed_Axes being passive. It boils down to the same thing, more damage on crits.

Honed Axes doesn’t even come close to the dmg output difference lol.

A better comparison would be Halting Strikes, something even Helseth complains about. It’s a similar example, because it’s just random massive dmg procs off of PASSIVE TRAITS, for doing virtually nothing that requires skill.

Interupting is mostly random in this game, and it’s even hard to fail to interupt because people are constantly doing something.

Knote.2904:

Mammoth.1975:

Knote.2904:

Void.4239:

Think we all can agree that burning should not be allowed to proc on crit for any class.
Its just to powerful of a condition compared to the other damaging conditions.

Either it should have be access to burning OR access to the other damaging conditions.
Should not have been allowed for 1 profession to get burning + other damaging conditions.

I actually don’t know if it’s OP or not for Necro’s to have access to burning.

With proper sacrifice to get it perhaps, but it’s bad to have things this strong completely passive.

If they wanted to give Necro access to burning it should’ve just been with torch as a weapon (green fire as well wink wink) with attacks in your control.

Which would also require giving up another offhand for that burning access.

It’s basically a damage buff, although it’s a cover condition for 3 seconds, which is important. Nonetheless, complaining about it being passive is equivalent to complaining about something like http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Honed_Axes being passive. It boils down to the same thing, more damage on crits.

Honed Axes doesn’t even come close to the dmg output difference lol.

A better comparison would be Halting Strikes, something even Helseth complains about. It’s a similar example, because it’s just random massive dmg procs off of PASSIVE TRAITS, for doing virtually nothing that requires skill.

Interupting is mostly random in this game, and it’s even hard to fail to interupt because people are constantly doing something.

Actually they do similar damage, because honed axes has no ICD. Warrior axe mastery would have been a better example though.

Mammoth.1975:

Knote.2904:

Mammoth.1975:

Knote.2904:

Void.4239:

Think we all can agree that burning should not be allowed to proc on crit for any class.
Its just to powerful of a condition compared to the other damaging conditions.

Either it should have be access to burning OR access to the other damaging conditions.
Should not have been allowed for 1 profession to get burning + other damaging conditions.

I actually don’t know if it’s OP or not for Necro’s to have access to burning.

With proper sacrifice to get it perhaps, but it’s bad to have things this strong completely passive.

If they wanted to give Necro access to burning it should’ve just been with torch as a weapon (green fire as well wink wink) with attacks in your control.

Which would also require giving up another offhand for that burning access.

It’s basically a damage buff, although it’s a cover condition for 3 seconds, which is important. Nonetheless, complaining about it being passive is equivalent to complaining about something like http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Honed_Axes being passive. It boils down to the same thing, more damage on crits.

Honed Axes doesn’t even come close to the dmg output difference lol.

A better comparison would be Halting Strikes, something even Helseth complains about. It’s a similar example, because it’s just random massive dmg procs off of PASSIVE TRAITS, for doing virtually nothing that requires skill.

Interupting is mostly random in this game, and it’s even hard to fail to interupt because people are constantly doing something.

No you’re right. Honed axes does way more, because it has no ICD.

You’re kidding me right? Are you trying to have an actual discussion here? Or are you joking.

Perhaps if Honed Axes was given 10 second cooldown but instead had a 100% chance on crit to give you an extra 100% crit dmg for 4 seconds, this would be a better comparison….

Yeah fixed it up sorry. Use warrior axe mastery instead. I wasn’t accounting for the kittenty base damage on ranger axe

Not really the point I was driving at though. They’re both passive damage increases. If dhuumfire procced poison or chill or an interrupt, some kind of utility, then it would be worth talking about the problems with passive procs.

Mammoth.1975:

Yeah fixed it up sorry. Use warrior axe mastery instead. I wasn’t accounting for the kittenty base damage on ranger axe

Not really the point I was driving at though. They’re both passive damage increases. If dhuumfire procced poison or chill or an interrupt, some kind of utility, then it would be worth talking about the problems with passive procs.

Yes, but Dhuumfire is a very large passive dmg increase.

I guess a better comparison is the minor traits that have a chance to proc a small bleed, that is a MUCH smaller passive dmg proc that just becomes a little addition, it doesn’t completely overwhelm people by itself.

A single burn proc could take out 1/3 – 1/2 of someone’s health unless they were to cleanse it immediately, and it happened passively, and it’ll happen again 10 seconds later.

Just playing my Engy the other day, I was randomly throwing grenades around and hit a stealthed thief with one of my grenades, got a couple bleeds on him and procced my burn, I just sat there watching him run away burning to half health while laughing cause it was an accident.

It’s like sneezing and almost killing someone.

I’m the kind of person that loves to figure out all the cheese possibilities in the game, starting from BETA.

I did the clone condition spam cheese builds where I just sit in stealth and watch clones melt people with bleeds. I did phantasm builds forever, just sitting in stealth watching pets mutilated people. I did cheesey double aoe retal mesmer builds, chaos armor confusion builds, confusion portal bombing builds (this still functions today).

I did beastmaster ranger builds where pets nearly 2 shot people and were incredibly hard to kill. Killshot and immobilize spam warrior builds (still good today). Thief dancing dagger mega spike builds (eventually got nerfed when people caught onto it). Necro Fear build was something I was doing before it even came close to being public. I was also doing Ele staff bunker/conditions during beta lol.

If there’s one thing I know, it’s faceroll cheese. And I can tell you, these traits reek of it.

Knote.2904:

Yes, but Dhuumfire is a very large passive dmg increase.

So is axe mastery. It’s actually a lot higher than dhuumfire against a dummy. This is where the ICD on dhuumfire works in it’s favor though, because you don’t need 100% uptime to max the damage you get from it, unlike axe mastery, and a dummy is the only place you get 100% uptime.

Mammoth.1975:

Knote.2904:

Yes, but Dhuumfire is a very large passive dmg increase.

So is axe mastery. It’s actually a lot higher than dhuumfire against a dummy. This is where the ICD on dhuumfire works in it’s favor though, because you don’t need 100% uptime to max the damage you get from it, unlike axe mastery, and a dummy is the only place you get 100% uptime.

But pvp isn’t just 2 dummies sitting there auto attacking each other.

I could be on the other side of the map, and someone hits my mark and loses half their health to burn + a little bleed or poison.

That same 10% crit dmg trait isn’t going to overwhelm or kill people by itself, it still requires you to land that eviscerate crit on someone, and even then would maybe give an extra 1000 dmg by itself, where as a single burn proc would do upwards of 6k, w/o even the slightest thought put in by me.

Sure, 1000 damage from eviscerate, and 400 from an autoattack, 400 from another autoattack, etc. Whether the damage is equal, higher, or lower isn’t what I’m getting at. It’s a passive damage buff. If you’re unhappy with the specific numbers, that’s worth discussing, but the passive proc nature is no different to a million other traits.

No dhuumfire proc is ever going to do close to 6k btw. Not even incendiary powder does that, and it’s twice as effective.