Guild Wars 2

Galrond.5972:

If a thief got you from behind with backstab…

it is like… an ele ride the lightning and updraft then change to fire for burst damage that look like one shot kill too.

Yeah, exactly the same… except, that the huge ball of lightning, that takes 3 seconds to reach you is clearly visible, compared to an invisible enemy that appears instantly out of nowhere.

If RTL would instantly teleport you behind your target, then we could talk.

Why people complain about something they can see and avoid is silly. Me? I just let ele’s rtl to me, then I dodge the updraft and collect free bags.

covenn.7165:

Stiv.1820:

Oozo.7856:

covenn.7165:

Stiv.1820:

Binafus.8153:

Thiefs are OP, I understand why Thiefs come here and post but it does not change the fact.

Thief are balanced at the higher level of skill cap along all professions. If you have constant trouble with them it just means you are a fairly low skill player. Tough to hear I know. The good news is, you can always get better!

Here are a couple tips.

1) Use your mouse to turn. I know the keyboard has been amazing to turn with since Doom but the mouse really is better

2) Bind your abilities to keys. Clicks has been awesome since Microsoft stole the mouse from Apple but sometimes going backwards is actually better. Weird I know. This going against #1 I know but just trust me.

3) Use the dodge ability. In this game you get a free ability that give you immunity to everything. It’s really weird. I recommend binding it to a key so you can do it faster, just in case you do use this but use the double tap method.

This is just the beginning. Spread your wings and fly!

You aren’t helping your argument by being demeaning to people. Just sayin

When your argument is weak, you pretty much have to fall back to bluster and insults.

Actually if you look through all my posting history, I used to be constructive. It’s become apparent to me in the past couple weeks that trying to help people understand mechanics is like dropping bricks on my head. It’s gotten to the point where I am just going to post information as useless as all the whiners.

Most people know how to dodge, key bind, and mouse move. This isn’t WOW. :p

Well yes, that’s why I said I used to be constructive!

Stiv.1820:

Actually if you look through all my posting history, I used to be constructive. It’s become apparent to me in the past couple weeks that trying to help people understand mechanics is like dropping bricks on my head. It’s gotten to the point where I am just going to post information as useless as all the whiners.

Well, I agree with you that what thieves can do can be countered when you know that they are there. I actually made a movie about that with my necro. However, I feel that the burst combo is too strong when used on someone who is fighting someone else and/or does not have their defensive moves available to them.

In these cases, there is sometimes literally nothing you can do and this is not fun. Fun is when you are able to counter something that is used against you. You either fail to do so or you succeed. There is something meaningful about such moments.

There is nothing to learn when you are killed in less than two seconds by something you have no way of countering. This doesn’t just apply to the thief. It applies to all classes. This kind of all-or-nothing gameplay is bad game design and is one of the reasons why the game is on the decline.

This is similar to a time in WoW when double ambush rogues were prevelant. No one, and I mean no one, respected them or their gameplay. And, for good reason.

As much as I don’t like taking part in complaining about another class in any way shape or form, I feel the need to here. Thieves shouldn’t be nerfed until the WvW culling is dealt with. Period. Look at how the abilities line up. It’s a very well put together class with inherent strengths and weakness’s. I hate being killed before I can register any player around as much as the next guy but I’d prefer this every now and then to thieves nerfed into a junker class. I main a Mesmer and will likely never roll a thief.
Without challenge, what forces improvement to you? To everyone angry about them, keep calm and try something different with your play style, build or gear.

Stiv.1820:

covenn.7165:

Stiv.1820:

Oozo.7856:

covenn.7165:

Stiv.1820:

Binafus.8153:

Thiefs are OP, I understand why Thiefs come here and post but it does not change the fact.

Thief are balanced at the higher level of skill cap along all professions. If you have constant trouble with them it just means you are a fairly low skill player. Tough to hear I know. The good news is, you can always get better!

Here are a couple tips.

1) Use your mouse to turn. I know the keyboard has been amazing to turn with since Doom but the mouse really is better

2) Bind your abilities to keys. Clicks has been awesome since Microsoft stole the mouse from Apple but sometimes going backwards is actually better. Weird I know. This going against #1 I know but just trust me.

3) Use the dodge ability. In this game you get a free ability that give you immunity to everything. It’s really weird. I recommend binding it to a key so you can do it faster, just in case you do use this but use the double tap method.

This is just the beginning. Spread your wings and fly!

You aren’t helping your argument by being demeaning to people. Just sayin

When your argument is weak, you pretty much have to fall back to bluster and insults.

Actually if you look through all my posting history, I used to be constructive. It’s become apparent to me in the past couple weeks that trying to help people understand mechanics is like dropping bricks on my head. It’s gotten to the point where I am just going to post information as useless as all the whiners.

Most people know how to dodge, key bind, and mouse move. This isn’t WOW. :p

Well yes, that’s why I said I used to be constructive!

Lmfao… Point taken

I have been saying this for about 30 years, invis classes should just be dropped from video games, they do not belong in video games. We play video games to have fun, not get spanked by stuff we cant see

People wonder why people are annoyed by thieves.

One example: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Infuriating-thief-build/first#post1061024

As stated in the post, a build specifically made to troll other players. Fighting this is not fun for anyone but the person who is trolling. I will openly admit I made a thief simply for figuring out how they work and I have not had it very long so far all I know that build is no good. What I noticed though is the general feel I get: “Hey guys lets troll/annoy everyone else intentionally.”

Say L2P all you want, but I know my fair number of people who don’t like playing wvwvw anymore simply because of what the game allows thieves to do. I do win fights with all classes, and I die to all classes. I don’t claim to be this unkillable machine so many claim to be. But of all classes this one is the only one that is “not fun” to deal with and I don’t seem to be alone at all. How is it even fun playing some of the builds you can make with one unless you are a poor sport and would rather use it to troll and make people quit?

Personally I’d rather not make people rage quit and have friendly competition instead.

What I feel needs to be changed:
- Damage displayed even when hitting stealth targets. (Just the damage, no need to unstealth)
- No more stealth finishers. It is an act of aggression and should take them out of stealth.
- Somehow make it harder to “reset” the fight. If a thief attacks a target make it so they are more committed to what they started. As it is now, in stealth they can whack a target a few times (they may or may not appear due to culling) and vanish if it doesn’t finish the job. Boring, annoying, and not fun.

So what exactly is a Ranger supposed to do when caught in the open by a thief… besides /die
I have concussion shot and then… no burst dmg to follow up… closest to burst I get is if I manage to get entagle off, drop a fire trap and then use bonfire… thats if the entangle hit him and locked him in his spot.
Im not screaming for a nerf just curiouos what I might have missed to make fighting a thief a possible win versus imediate death.

Oozo.7856:

Stiv.1820:

Actually if you look through all my posting history, I used to be constructive. It’s become apparent to me in the past couple weeks that trying to help people understand mechanics is like dropping bricks on my head. It’s gotten to the point where I am just going to post information as useless as all the whiners.

Well, I agree with you that what thieves can do can be countered when you know that they are there. I actually made a movie about that with my necro. However, I feel that the burst combo is too strong when used on someone who is fighting someone else and/or does not have their defensive moves available to them.

In these cases, there is sometimes literally nothing you can do and this is not fun. Fun is when you are able to counter something that is used against you. You either fail to do so or you succeed. There is something meaningful about such moments.

There is nothing to learn when you are killed in less than two seconds by something you have no way of countering. This doesn’t just apply to the thief. It applies to all classes. This kind of all-or-nothing gameplay is bad game design and is one of the reasons why the game is on the decline.

This is similar to a time in WoW when double ambush rogues were prevelant. No one, and I mean no one, respected them or their gameplay. And, for good reason.

You are correct. Even other thieves have to deal with this. The thief burst is very condense and if you are already in a hard fight they will ruin your day no matter what prof you are when they arsjam you. Though, if you see them and have cooldowns it’s a different story right? They are one of the easiest kills. Especially if you predict their SR and when they will try to flee.

I personally don’t run a burst spec aside from when I get bored and want a change of pace. I feel like whenever I die to a burst thief while distracted and already fighting it’s a fair death. That is what they are suppose to be doing. Same thing happens with 100b warriors who arsjam a fight as well. If you could counter burst without cool-downs then everyone would be bunker and this game would be pretty funny. Basically there have to be windows where highly skilled players will die to burst for balance imo.

irishhaf.1692:

So what exactly is a Ranger supposed to do when caught in the open by a thief… besides /die
I have concussion shot and then… no burst dmg to follow up… closest to burst I get is if I manage to get entagle off, drop a fire trap and then use bonfire… thats if the entangle hit him and locked him in his spot.
Im not screaming for a nerf just curiouos what I might have missed to make fighting a thief a possible win versus imediate death.

I’ve made this suggestion many times so I’m with you on this. Rangers need an ability to put their pet away for a significant buff. The entire reason Rangers have no chance vs a Thief is their pet mechanics.

In defence of the thief I don’t really have so much of an issue with perma stealth. Once I know I’m in battle with a thief I know I’m in for a fun fight that could go either way, and yeah okay they’re a pain to finish sometimes but that’s their privilage, much like that mesmer you stomped was a clone and the real one is 10ft away in a bush recovering their health, or there’s the ele who vapor forms into a tower or whatever. No big deal.

The issue is getting blown up on what I thought was a hardened target (warrior), running a little extra Vit/Tough specifically to survive spikes without giving up everything in the attack department. I had to sit back and imagine how an engie or ranger would survive that… not gonna happen if they don’t see anything, right?

Some of this I’m sure is down to the server physics in WvW, because the thief player’s client is going to have a time advantage between them sending the commands to the server and the server telling the target’s client they’re in combat, then the target has to respond and their commands have to make it back to the server before they die. The thief player might get to enjoy an extra second of time to execute their attack because of this and that’s enough.

Then of course there’s the infamous culling in WvW which means that patch of grass over there has 20 guys standing in it but you can’t see any of them because of the 20 guys you’re with and the other 20 guys up on a wall who you can see. So you see one guy in the previously empty patch of grass and go over there, only to have to bail out as fast as possible (often on fire) once the truth dawns on you that you’re in the middle of an angry horde of invaders.

Back in beta I remember that there was a sort of white paper doll with a black outline that was used for models that were loading in and I kinda wish there was at least that in WvW.

My opinion about the matter:

Thieves are annoying but to be honest they only down me if I’m in a small group or alone.

I’m rarely alone as I play support most of the time, and we are trying to accomplish something as a group.

Thieves tend to annoy people most when they are 1vs1 or 2vs2 or something like that. If its zerg on zerg they aren’t really a factor(even with spin2win). Same during a siege attack or defense, they are “blah”.

No need to QQ about them.

Galrond.5972:

If a thief got you from behind with backstab…

it is like… an ele ride the lightning and updraft then change to fire for burst damage that look like one shot kill too.

Yeah, exactly the same… except, that the huge ball of lightning, that takes 3 seconds to reach you is clearly visible, compared to an invisible enemy that appears instantly out of nowhere.

If RTL would instantly teleport you behind your target, then we could talk.

Yup, but when you’re just running away… you’re no longer able to see your back unless you constantly do… Ride the lightning still going to catch up and updraft you which knock you down for a good sec or two.

I just try a permastealth thief. I notice a glitch? So I used blinding powder and hit them accidentally with heartseeker… Hit him for 4k while I’m still in stealth, yet I was not forced out of stealth?

Also I tried a different build compare to my friend because I want to killed too. I remember watching my guildmate do one vs one with a toughness thief that come in and out as he please… Dish damage and vanish into thin air. So I try a similiar build.

The build I was running guarantee permastealth and stack might. I can get up to 10-15 stack of might while backstabbing between 3-7k. Then I’ll used shadow shot to close in and hit haste to finished off my prey.

I also used Superior rune of the scholor and berserker amulets for power/pecision. So basically yea permastealth is alright. Just the constant spamming to stay in stealth forever isn’t my ideal way of playing thief.

Eshei.6803:

jkctmc.8754:

Eshei.6803:

Cirian.8917:

Here’s how a warrior with 2,400 armour and 23K health fares in WvW vs a Backstab Thief in one simple picture.

At no point did either a thief or a red name tag render on my screen and as far as I knew I was moving through an empty field under swiftness spamming savage leap / whirlwind / rush. I was downed before my client even registered combat! Full health -> downed-> stealth stomped and I saw and heard nothing at any point. This is Tier1 WvW so no surprise some of these guys have this down to a very fine art.

I mean c’mon. If my client registers something I can react to before I die, maybe I can counter it (warriors have lots of options). I had zero chance.

I think you got killed by a backstab thieves with teleportation skills -____-

In my opinion, I can’t see how a permastealth able to kill you fast enough for the game not to registered it… Permastealth you need 30 toughness to regain initiative fast enough to keep yourself in stealth.

This isn’t entirely true, and I’m not going to explain exactly how, but using combo fields, I can stay stealthed for a very, very long time.

But with a combo field you’re constantly spending initiative right? So how you going to reach quick enough to a warrior on quickness running the other direction, using his weapon skills to move faster… when you need toughness traits to get 33% movement speed, regain initiative faster, and remove condition while in stealth?

Even if its possible to do permastealth with no toughness… how is it possible to permastealth using combo fields to go into stealth using heartseeker?

Is it even possible to regain initiative fast enough to keep field combo and heartseaker up?

My movement speed is 50% in stealth. I use a Superior Sigil of Purity to remove conditions, don’t you?

Stiv.1820:

jkctmc.8754:

Stiv.1820:

jkctmc.8754:

Hammerhorn.1347:

I have to agree that people need to stop the tears about being killed by a thief , alot of the people crying dont stack toughness or health yet they want to live from a back attack thief? I dont think so!!! Man up and stack some defense or die cuz dps warriors hurt way more than thieves.

I’m hitting Bunker Guardians for 5k mugs, 4k-5k Cloak and Dagger, and 4k-5k Backstabs who have over 3500 armor. They’ve got the highest toughness they can get, and give up virtually all of thier damage. Guardians have as few hit points as the Thief.

Yea because a bunker guardian that just soaks all those hits is a pro. They don’t have any defensive cool-downs they could blow! They also still have ~5K health left to pop stuff if they are bad.

You have reading issues, or you’re just a horrible Thief. I can sustain my damage, and stealth for a long time, something like 28 seconds. The only class I can not kill is a good bunker Elementalist.

A bunker Guardian only has roughly 13k or 14k hit points, if they’ve managed to get some Vitality while maxing Toughness. I can chew through that regardless of their armor, so anyone who thinks armor matters much in this game is a bad player. It doesn’t, and it doesn’t scale as well as power & precision. Not to mention the best defensive builds are those who utilized Precision, and the procs you can get with it.

Get good at the game before you defend our class brother, or you’re going to create a situation where the developers destroy the class because we’re not helping them with the real problems with the game.

Oh look, someone who thinks highly of themselves because they kill randos in WvW.

Ever hear of P/V/T gear?

How does armor do nothing with those numbers you are posting? 5k mugs, 4k-5k Cloak and Dagger, and 4k-5k is about 40% less damage. Do you not understand that damage is dependent on your target’s armor vs your power? If they didn’t have toughness that would be more like 7k 7k 12k.

I know my class and specs very well. You obviously haven’t fought a decent guardian. Bunker guardians are actually terrible outside of sPvP. Zerker guardians using defensive cool-downs are the real honey badger of this game.

I did sPvP one day, won every match, and some dude who pays for tourny’s, has some high score or something, cried about me, and said I was hacking. Havn’t done them since, and didn’t see a single person worthy of my time.

sPvP is for carebears, who believe in the illusion of balance that can not possibly exist.

The toughness doesn’t matter when the end result is death for the Guardian, no matter what. Even if I have to hit the Guardian one more hit to kill him, it doesn’t matter. So what if it takes me 1-2 seconds longer to kill them, than it does for me to kill glass canons. That short amount of time means absolutely nothing brother.

I’m sorry you’re having issues, truly I am. But don’t take your lack of skills to mean you know what is actually going on.

Thief doesn’t want to be nerfed, nothing to see here, move along.

One day people will understand WvW and tPvP are team games and then will see how useless a backstab Thief in a crowd fight and how he dies to 2-3 ticks of aoe damage.

Stiv.1820:

Clicks has been awesome since Microsoft stole the mouse from Apple but sometimes going backwards is actually better.

To be fair Steve Jobs basically stole the mouse idea and GUI from Xerox RARC. If Xerox had realized what they had and if they had the vision of a Steve Jobs, the history of computing would be a lot different than it is now.

So Stiv, why is it fair that thieves don’t have to be such awesome elite players to easily kill victims in PvP/WvW, yet the rest of us have to be to have some chance of beating of them?

I just don’t get how anyone who plays a thief can think the way things are now is in anyway fair. Thieves can run around and roam at will picking and choosing who and when to fight. Usually escape when things don’t go their way. Most of the rest of classes do not have that luxury with the possible exception of a D/D Ele.

This seems fair and ok to you and other thieves?

+1 Signed I agree all.

RedOwl.7496:

So Stiv, why is it fair that thieves don’t have to be such awesome elite players to easily kill victims in PvP/WvW, yet the rest of us have to be to have some chance of beating of them?

You can pretend that thieves are face roll easy to play, but maybe if you actually tried instead of crying, you’d know this already.

http://www.gamebreaker.tv/video-game-shows/massive-dps/

video talking about the glass cannon backstab build and Taugrim says . . .

“This setup puts out MASSIVE amounts of DPS but takes a lot of skill execute properly”

so go on and keep the QQ going, it only shows how much of a baddie you really are

Thief has to be the most complained about class in GW2’s history so far!

Until Arenanet implements an effective solution for thieves which both parties can agree to, then I can almost guarantee based on the last couple to a few months of consistent thieves are relatively strong threads / posts, that we will continue to see more of them moving forward.

I too want to see less QQ about the thief and to achieve that, ironically, both sides need to continue raising the issues with Arenanet until it realizes that they are important issues for lots of players which we want to be resolved ASAP.

Keep it up!

At least until someone from Arenanet acknowledges the problems at hand, and that it is working towards a ‘permanent’ solution.

Hopefully, it will come sooner than later!

HeeHee.5208:

Thief has to be the most complained about class in GW2’s history so far!

Until Arenanet implements an effective solution for thieves which both parties can agree to, then I can almost guarantee based on the last couple to a few months of consistent thieves are relatively strong threads / posts, that we will continue to see more of them moving forward.

I too want to see less QQ about the thief and to achieve that, ironically, both sides need to continue raising the issues with Arenanet until it realizes that they are important issues for lots of players which we want to be resolved ASAP.

Keep it up!

At least until someone from Arenanet acknowledges the problems at hand, and that it is working towards a ‘permanent’ solution.

Hopefully, it will come sooner than later!

If A-Net continues with their balance philosphy of small changes and needed changes, then the backstab build people are complaining about will not be fixed.
The haste combo ( or macro) is probably going to be looked into because it breaks animations.

Here’s a hint to everyone though.
If after 4 months of crying the devs have done NOTHING to BS. That should be a clue that they dont listen to dramatic tears

jkctmc.8754:

Eshei.6803:

jkctmc.8754:

Eshei.6803:

Cirian.8917:

Here’s how a warrior with 2,400 armour and 23K health fares in WvW vs a Backstab Thief in one simple picture.

At no point did either a thief or a red name tag render on my screen and as far as I knew I was moving through an empty field under swiftness spamming savage leap / whirlwind / rush. I was downed before my client even registered combat! Full health -> downed-> stealth stomped and I saw and heard nothing at any point. This is Tier1 WvW so no surprise some of these guys have this down to a very fine art.

I mean c’mon. If my client registers something I can react to before I die, maybe I can counter it (warriors have lots of options). I had zero chance.

I think you got killed by a backstab thieves with teleportation skills -____-

In my opinion, I can’t see how a permastealth able to kill you fast enough for the game not to registered it… Permastealth you need 30 toughness to regain initiative fast enough to keep yourself in stealth.

This isn’t entirely true, and I’m not going to explain exactly how, but using combo fields, I can stay stealthed for a very, very long time.

But with a combo field you’re constantly spending initiative right? So how you going to reach quick enough to a warrior on quickness running the other direction, using his weapon skills to move faster… when you need toughness traits to get 33% movement speed, regain initiative faster, and remove condition while in stealth?

Even if its possible to do permastealth with no toughness… how is it possible to permastealth using combo fields to go into stealth using heartseeker?

Is it even possible to regain initiative fast enough to keep field combo and heartseaker up?

My movement speed is 50% in stealth. I use a Superior Sigil of Purity to remove conditions, don’t you?

Um nope… But now I am. Thanks.

Quentin Fields.1295:

One day people will understand WvW and tPvP are team games and then will see how useless a backstab Thief in a crowd fight and how he dies to 2-3 ticks of aoe damage.

Unless the team of thieves insta gibs all the aoers.

Sorry but the biggest willy always wins, they can and do team up too.

Even when you play a build that can’t be instakilled they still try and then just run away. Thats what annoys me, if they cant kill you before they render they just leave.

I have my wvw thief also and i can say im very op, and i get boring of perma hide. I can make fun on others tryign to kill me. and i understand the nerfs to others classes like guardian , and the other point of more buff to thief.

But well personaly i dont think anet have really pvpers on the dev team.

FourTwenty.4268:

RedOwl.7496:

So Stiv, why is it fair that thieves don’t have to be such awesome elite players to easily kill victims in PvP/WvW, yet the rest of us have to be to have some chance of beating of them?

You can pretend that thieves are face roll easy to play, but maybe if you actually tried instead of crying, you’d know this already.

http://www.gamebreaker.tv/video-game-shows/massive-dps/

video talking about the glass cannon backstab build and Taugrim says . . .

“This setup puts out MASSIVE amounts of DPS but takes a lot of skill execute properly”

so go on and keep the QQ going, it only shows how much of a baddie you really are

I will be the first to say I am just an average player. But how does complaining about an overpowered class and the problems it is causing in WvW and PvP make me a baddie?

Sorry my ego is not big as your appears to be. But you should look around and get out of your apparent state of denial about the problems that exist with the thief class.

How many threads do you see calling for nerfs to other classes compared to thieves.? Same for threads about people quitting due to thieves. Threads about people sick of them compared to other classes? Why do you think that is?

Taugrim’s opinion, and apparently yours, that thieves take a lot of skill to play does not make it so. My opinion is it takes a LOT more skill to avoid thieves or kill them than it takes for thieves to catch and kill others. This is fair? I bet more would agree with me on that than you.

Why don’t you roll something considered underpowered, like maybe a ranger, and go out and play against thieves and keep track of how many fights you win against them and how many you lose. And how hard you have to work to try to beat them compared to how hard they have to work to kill you. Come back after a week of doing it and let me know if you can be honest about it. Since you are such an awesome player and know how thieves work, it should be easy for you. Shouldn’t be frustrating at all to play against them since you think they are so well balanced and fair.

Quentin Fields.1295:

One day people will understand WvW and tPvP are team games and then will see how useless a backstab Thief in a crowd fight and how he dies to 2-3 ticks of aoe damage.

How do you die to AEs in this game? <looks surprised>

Long story short, someone is afraid his class is gonna get nerfed so he comes to the forums and tells everyone to quit crying about it. Yeah that’s gonna end well…

Eshei.6803:

jkctmc.8754:

Eshei.6803:

jkctmc.8754:

Eshei.6803:

Cirian.8917:

Here’s how a warrior with 2,400 armour and 23K health fares in WvW vs a Backstab Thief in one simple picture.

At no point did either a thief or a red name tag render on my screen and as far as I knew I was moving through an empty field under swiftness spamming savage leap / whirlwind / rush. I was downed before my client even registered combat! Full health -> downed-> stealth stomped and I saw and heard nothing at any point. This is Tier1 WvW so no surprise some of these guys have this down to a very fine art.

I mean c’mon. If my client registers something I can react to before I die, maybe I can counter it (warriors have lots of options). I had zero chance.

I think you got killed by a backstab thieves with teleportation skills -____-

In my opinion, I can’t see how a permastealth able to kill you fast enough for the game not to registered it… Permastealth you need 30 toughness to regain initiative fast enough to keep yourself in stealth.

This isn’t entirely true, and I’m not going to explain exactly how, but using combo fields, I can stay stealthed for a very, very long time.

But with a combo field you’re constantly spending initiative right? So how you going to reach quick enough to a warrior on quickness running the other direction, using his weapon skills to move faster… when you need toughness traits to get 33% movement speed, regain initiative faster, and remove condition while in stealth?

Even if its possible to do permastealth with no toughness… how is it possible to permastealth using combo fields to go into stealth using heartseeker?

Is it even possible to regain initiative fast enough to keep field combo and heartseaker up?

My movement speed is 50% in stealth. I use a Superior Sigil of Purity to remove conditions, don’t you?

Um nope… But now I am. Thanks.

You need a fast recharging stun removal, and Sigil of Purity will take care of the rest. For Thieves it’s the sword, number 2 attack.

I’m tired of the L2P excuse being used by OP theives.

I challenge all these players crying about the theif to a duel. You will create a thief and I will create any class you want me to beside engineer and we will duel in mists. Even thief excels in single target burst and lacks in other sides I will show you how other classes are still good at 1vs1 versus thieves.

I’m also pretty tired about Thief QQ. It is literally beyond a joke. I’m not going to type L2P for people but seriously, if you DON’T know here are some tips:

1. Stealth is NOT invulnerability. So here is the thing, you can use AoE when a thief stealths or you can (if you have one) just swing whatever weapon around. You won’t see the damage but you will likely kill the thief, they do tend to stealth at the last moment. Thieves get targetted by other theives ALL THE TIME, and I can’t count how many of them I’ve finished as they lay downed after coming out of stealth.

2. Stealth is NOT a get out of jail free card. So here is the second thing, you can use channeled skills that as long as you start when you CAN target the thief will continue to hit them when they go in to stealth. Same applies for your pets. Buggy game, but hey that is the way it is.

3. Insane damage per second DOES mean “glass cannon”. I don’t care what you say, if you are hitting what some poster on here laughably called a “bunker guardian” for 4-7k (I say laughably because the poster doesn’t play sPvP and doesn’t actually know the specs and traits for a bunker guardian) then you as the thief are specced all out assault and made of glass. Thief does not have any fancy defensive cool downs other than stealth, and I already pointed out how weak that actually is. So if you can survive the “coming out of stealth burst”, just like most MMOs, and know how to play YOUR class you can likely win because if you don’t know the thief shares the lowest HP pool.

4. WvWvW is a team game with team objectives. I suggest you learn to live with it, your server also has good/bad/excellent thieves running around too. If you think WvWvW is all about just what happens in your tiny bubble you are playing it all wrong. Learn your class, roll a thief for sPVP, learn to use defensive cool downs, roll/dodge and use YOUR skills appropriately.

5. Rock paper scissors STILL applies, to every MMO but more so in GW2, so many ways to spec within one class. If you can beat some thieves with a particular spec don’t be surprised if another thief can destroy you. So many choices for most classes, less so for thieves however.

6. After three rounds of nerfs to thieves the last major balance patch pushed MORE of us in to backstab builds. You may as well forget Anet riding to your rescue and dumbing down the game to suit your limited knowledge of other classes. Seriously. The next major balance change will likely put soft caps or limit crit damage overall, that means to everyone. I will personally have a rueful smile the day that happens as my thief won’t be taking 14k kill shots and other enormous spikes. But I will still be causing people to run crying to the forums on my thief

And finally, from every dev interviewer of Arenanet I can recall the classes played by them in WvWvW were predominantly Ele and Warrior. Some mesmer. Any Anet tag I’ve seen on a class in WvWvW in my personal experience has been Warrior. interestingly I don’t see any devs QQing, just getting on and playing the game.

Morningstar.6208:

I challenge all these players crying about the theif to a duel. You will create a thief and I will create any class you want me to beside engineer and we will duel in mists. Even thief excels in single target burst and lacks in other sides I will show you how other classes are still good at 1vs1 versus thieves.

I’m a bit rusty but would be willing to practice Thief matchups thief main, though.

edit: calling it now, when Thieves get killed off by nerfs people will realize how absurd a decent Ele is.

I really think most of the issue is just culling being broken. Good players already have very little issue avoiding backstabs even if you connect with steal+cnd.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Stiv.1820:

irishhaf.1692:

So what exactly is a Ranger supposed to do when caught in the open by a thief… besides /die
I have concussion shot and then… no burst dmg to follow up… closest to burst I get is if I manage to get entagle off, drop a fire trap and then use bonfire… thats if the entangle hit him and locked him in his spot.
Im not screaming for a nerf just curiouos what I might have missed to make fighting a thief a possible win versus imediate death.

I’ve made this suggestion many times so I’m with you on this. Rangers need an ability to put their pet away for a significant buff. The entire reason Rangers have no chance vs a Thief is their pet mechanics.

Or they could give us a trait that lets us see thieves in stealth, or a skill that negates and locks stealth from being used within 1000 feet of us for 10 seconds. It’d cause a bit of a balancing affect on them.

This is an absurd suggestion. Rangers are broken, and not only against Thieves. A “fix” like this would simply make them mandatory as a thief counter, and otherwise very weak like now.. Worse, trying to fix those actual issues would make them broken OP with a Thief/Mesmer hard counter ability.

Stiv.1820:

irishhaf.1692:

So what exactly is a Ranger supposed to do when caught in the open by a thief… besides /die
I have concussion shot and then… no burst dmg to follow up… closest to burst I get is if I manage to get entagle off, drop a fire trap and then use bonfire… thats if the entangle hit him and locked him in his spot.
Im not screaming for a nerf just curiouos what I might have missed to make fighting a thief a possible win versus imediate death.

I’ve made this suggestion many times so I’m with you on this. Rangers need an ability to put their pet away for a significant buff. The entire reason Rangers have no chance vs a Thief is their pet mechanics.

Or they could give us a trait that lets us see thieves in stealth, or a skill that negates and locks stealth from being used within 1000 feet of us for 10 seconds. It’d cause a bit of a balancing affect on them.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Stiv.1820:

irishhaf.1692:

So what exactly is a Ranger supposed to do when caught in the open by a thief… besides /die
I have concussion shot and then… no burst dmg to follow up… closest to burst I get is if I manage to get entagle off, drop a fire trap and then use bonfire… thats if the entangle hit him and locked him in his spot.
Im not screaming for a nerf just curiouos what I might have missed to make fighting a thief a possible win versus imediate death.

I’ve made this suggestion many times so I’m with you on this. Rangers need an ability to put their pet away for a significant buff. The entire reason Rangers have no chance vs a Thief is their pet mechanics.

Or they could give us a trait that lets us see thieves in stealth, or a skill that negates and locks stealth from being used within 1000 feet of us for 10 seconds. It’d cause a bit of a balancing affect on them.

thief tracking: Pets Follow thieves, channeling spells keep hitting thieves even if they go stealth. What else more you might need?

Anet balances for top end players, not mid-low.

Thief and Warrior are FOOS classes. They can be build for one thing. Learn to counter their one thing they are built for and it’s GG.

Rendering is an issue right now though… I agree… and should be dealt with right now in some way. It’s been months and nothing has been done to counter it while they fix it. That’s redicilous.

Increase the reveal time until it’s dealt with… then you can lower it back down once it is. Easy to do, and the impact of the problem is decreased.

Saying don’t nerf thief until rendering is fixed is rubbish. You balance the game that you have now based on what’s happening now… not for how it’ll be in several months when this rendering is finally fixed.

Aberrant.6749:

Anet balances for top end players, not mid-low.

Thief and Warrior are FOOS classes. They can be build for one thing. Learn to counter their one thing they are built for and it’s GG.

Rendering is an issue right now though… I agree… and should be dealt with right now in some way. It’s been months and nothing has been done to counter it while they fix it. That’s redicilous.

Increase the reveal time until it’s dealt with… then you can lower it back down once it is. Easy to do, and the impact of the problem is decreased.

Saying don’t nerf thief until rendering is fixed is rubbish. You balance the game that you have now based on what’s happening now… not for how it’ll be in several months when this rendering is finally fixed.

Going at it like this implies that rendering is an issue across the board, in all situations. It isn’t.

yertle.5837:

Aberrant.6749:

Anet balances for top end players, not mid-low.

Thief and Warrior are FOOS classes. They can be build for one thing. Learn to counter their one thing they are built for and it’s GG.

Rendering is an issue right now though… I agree… and should be dealt with right now in some way. It’s been months and nothing has been done to counter it while they fix it. That’s redicilous.

Increase the reveal time until it’s dealt with… then you can lower it back down once it is. Easy to do, and the impact of the problem is decreased.

Saying don’t nerf thief until rendering is fixed is rubbish. You balance the game that you have now based on what’s happening now… not for how it’ll be in several months when this rendering is finally fixed.

Going at it like this implies that rendering is an issue across the board, in all situations. It isn’t.

When isn’t rendering an issue in wvw lol? Oh those oh so hard NPC’s… can’t deal with them with slightly longer reveal… /sarcasm

I challenge all these players crying about the theif to a duel.

In a duel both players know that the other one is there, it will be a 1on1 and they won’t run away.

It removes most of the problems players have with thiefs. If I know that there is an enemy I can prepare myself and stare at the screen until I see the slightest hint and smash the buttons.

Also I will get my deserved kill since he can’t just stealth and run away to prepare his next all-in attack.

Stealthed movement speed/mobility should be reduced to 50% of normal speed and not increased. Honestly, how silent can you be if you are running like an idi.ot?

High mobility while clearly visible? Fine, but heavy restrictions while stealthed.

Aberrant.6749:

When isn’t rendering an issue in wvw lol? Oh those oh so hard NPC’s… can’t deal with them with slightly longer reveal… /sarcasm

In my experience, culling really isn’t an issue except in busy areas – ie if you’re one of the 5 people on that half of a borderlands, there really is no problem. There may be caching issues complicating it as well, but I have had plenty of duels in empty areas where people can instantly react to me leaving stealth.

Galrond.5972:

In a duel both players know that the other one is there, it will be a 1on1 and they won’t run away.

It removes most of the problems players have with thiefs. If I know that there is an enemy I can prepare myself and stare at the screen until I see the slightest hint and smash the buttons.

Also I will get my deserved kill since he can’t just stealth and run away to prepare his next all-in attack.

Stealthed movement speed/mobility should be reduced to 50% of normal speed and not increased. Honestly, how silent can you be if you are running like an idi.ot?

High mobility while clearly visible? Fine, but heavy restrictions while stealthed.

Stealth does not increase movement speed without a trait, and I agree that buffing that trait to 50% movespeed from 33% was ridiculous even though it is in a trait line that isn’t utilized as much in PvP.

I have to disagree with how dueling changes the situation. You can get ganked by really any glass cannon; if you don’t see them coming and don’t react in the window you have (for backstab thieves its the sizeable window between 5>F1 and backstabbing) you just die. Same goes for a 100b warrior downing you instantly in a bulls charge, or oneshotting at 1500 range with rifle, or an ele using various fire grab or churning earth combos.

In an optimal situation, the Thief can land cnd>steal without the target having much time to react – but if the backstab is avoided, even another gc will easily survive, and you really should be able to dodge it. If you can’t, I suggest playing a Thief or dueling one and figuring out how to avoid eating the full combo for free.

FourTwenty.4268:

RedOwl.7496:

So Stiv, why is it fair that thieves don’t have to be such awesome elite players to easily kill victims in PvP/WvW, yet the rest of us have to be to have some chance of beating of them?

You can pretend that thieves are face roll easy to play, but maybe if you actually tried instead of crying, you’d know this already.

http://www.gamebreaker.tv/video-game-shows/massive-dps/

video talking about the glass cannon backstab build and Taugrim says . . .

“This setup puts out MASSIVE amounts of DPS but takes a lot of skill execute properly”

so go on and keep the QQ going, it only shows how much of a baddie you really are

That thief is not even using cloak and dagger to secure stomps when he has full initiative. What that means is he lacks game knowledge.

Galrond.5972:

I challenge all these players crying about the theif to a duel.

In a duel both players know that the other one is there, it will be a 1on1 and they won’t run away.

It removes most of the problems players have with thiefs. If I know that there is an enemy I can prepare myself and stare at the screen until I see the slightest hint and smash the buttons.

Also I will get my deserved kill since he can’t just stealth and run away to prepare his next all-in attack.

Stealthed movement speed/mobility should be reduced to 50% of normal speed and not increased. Honestly, how silent can you be if you are running like an idi.ot?

High mobility while clearly visible? Fine, but heavy restrictions while stealthed.

Learn to use CC skills if you want to catch thieves. It’s not thief’s fault you lack skill.

yertle.5837:

In my experience, culling really isn’t an issue except in busy areas – ie if you’re one of the 5 people on that half of a borderlands, there really is no problem. There may be caching issues complicating it as well, but I have had plenty of duels in empty areas where people can instantly react to me leaving stealth.

That’s not the normal experience. I’ve seen it from both sides (as a theif and as other classes). There is always a delay between when you come out of stealth and when you appear. Yes it’s longer in busy areas, but the delay always exists.

What the other players may be doing (and I do) is try to watch for the black swirl and try to tab target. However, tab targeting has its own issues, which can be easily exploited. You are also still (visually) invis and that can also be easily exploited as well… if I know my opponent is reacting to the black swirl I can easily use that to bait/misdirect.

Increasing the reveal time would mitigate this by forcing the thief to be visible for at least some period of time before being able to re-stealth. I know many thieves abuse this and know the (aprox) time that it takes for them to be visually apparent… like with p/d it’s about the time that it takes to use 2 auto attacks then re-stealth to be perma or near perma (visually) invis. This is obviously not how thief is supposed to operate and something needs to be done NOW since this has been a problem for months.

Is it an ideal fix? No. Would it be a permanent fix? No. Is it a fair fix that addresses the issue? Yes.

Do you guys realize in every one of these thief threads its the same exact thing? Give it a rest already. I don’t know how you people even read through this stuff.

SmokeyNYY.7841:

Do you guys realize in every one of these thief threads its the same exact thing? Give it a rest already. I don’t know how you people even read through this stuff.

I’ll keep occasionally posting about issues until they dealt with. Don’t want the dev’s to think we’ve forgotten about them :P

Feel free not to enter and post in these threads yourself if you don’t like them though ^^

Cirian.8917:

Here’s how a warrior with 2,400 armour and 23K health fares in WvW vs a Backstab Thief in one simple picture.

At no point did either a thief or a red name tag render on my screen and as far as I knew I was moving through an empty field under swiftness spamming savage leap / whirlwind / rush. I was downed before my client even registered combat! Full health -> downed-> stealth stomped and I saw and heard nothing at any point. This is Tier1 WvW so no surprise some of these guys have this down to a very fine art.

I mean c’mon. If my client registers something I can react to before I die, maybe I can counter it (warriors have lots of options). I had zero chance.

All that shows is a picture of numbers and you, of course, dead. I can post a picture of my dead character with a 15K killshot on the log just as easily. Either

A) He got you from behind, which is your fault due to lack of situational awareness in WvW

B) From head on while you stood there

You’re a warrior. Pop endure pain when he gets in range and laugh. It really is THAT simple.

Morningstar.6208:

Learn to use CC skills if you want to catch thieves. It’s not thief’s fault you lack skill.

I always laugh at comments like this. The assumption that people are so bad at the game that they don’t know how to use CC is just ridiculous. EVERYONE knows how to use CC already.

You can’t CC someone if you can’t target them.

But I’ll say again… stealth isn’t the problem. Stealth is the thief’s primary mechanic, and it’s fine being their main strength. The problem with thrives is their damage is still too high. No class with stealth should be doing high DPS as well. Doesn’t matter if you’re a glass cannon or not, stealth makes any class with high DPS over powered, this was proven in DAoC for crying out loud.

I challenge everyone who thinks glass cannon thieves are OP. Sincerely, a non glass cannon thief who has never been killed by them in a 1v1. Spvp, you name the date, ill be there

Is anyone talking about 1v1 here? This is WvW where situation means everything.