Guild Wars 2

Hello Anet,

I will start by saying I do love this game. I have invested 1000’s of hours into it. WvW is a nice idea, however it has areas that are fundamentally flawed. I don’t care to go into those, there are hundreds of posts about these things already (see AC thread for example).

With this last update, you are hearing a lot of complaining. Most of it is coming from the open field combat oriented guilds. The ones who love to delve into theory crafting around builds, group composition, tactics. Specifically the ones that simply love to use their character to its full intended purpose (not jumping on siege and spamming 2 for 2 hours).

Up until this point guilds that want to engage in this sort of action in any guaranteed fashion must go to elaborate lengths to stage a meeting (typically behind the south supply camp) They than have to try and find ways to have non-guild members not get involved. They than have to clear out all the ambient creatures. They than have to inform that map not to worry about the crossed swords behind the camp.

Sure this is fine.

However it does do something rather un-fair to the people who are not interested in this kind of encounter. It needlessly queues out maps. In some cases you see 60 people fighting/spectating.

The solution is simple (from my stand point, probably not from yours)

Give the people of this game a separate platform to engage in these type of activities.

Furthermore, up until now, if we were on the same server as another extremely tough opponent, or a guild we really respected, we would have to transfer servers just to fight them. This does NOTHING but screw up the dynamics of the entire match-up for that week as now you have a guild of 20+ on an enemy server taking up space, frustrating those who call that server home. Having a platform where we can actively engage guilds from ALL servers including our own would simply be outstanding.

This really is some of the most amazingly intense activities you can partake in within this game. It would be lovely to be able to engage in this type of activity more often in some kind of controlled environment.

Anet have you watched some of these videos from your most popular guilds?

Have you seen how crazy these activities become. They draw in players.

In case you have not seen the videos heres some links I found:

[RG] vs [VotF] (2 of your games more popular guilds)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NECK6HaZzM

[EMP] vs [AGG] (2 popular former T1 NA guilds now T2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPie64qmS10

[RE] vs [VK] (T2 guilds. 1 formerly EMP, 1 formerly RET)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=m0PMhDQwlQQ

So Anet. Is this a possibility?

I personally would absolutely love this. I can only speak for my own guild however.

so basically a fifth WvW map with no objectives (and therefore no reason to go there unless you just want to fight for the fun of it)? this doesn’t sound technically difficult.

lol, you could put the entry portals to this new map behind the windmills on each of the three borderlands maps (so as to avoid cluttering up the spawn point with portals that most players won’t care about).

-ken

If there are other guilds who would like to post their GvG videos, please do.

I know there are dozens of other guilds that love to fight and GvG as much as the 6 guilds listed in the above post!

We all enjoy watching a good fight =)

Sorry, I just went with the first 3 I could find.

Loken.9724:

Sorry, I just went with the first 3 I could find.

No worries, your post was more than enough! Just want Arenanet to know how many we are and how much we all love a good fight

A few comments.

1. Fights like these are only going to be interesting if you include voice. That is what these fights are all about. Communication, movement, position, and coordination. You can only get a feel for that if we hear your commands.

2. Don’t cover up the action bars.

3. Don’t post movies from a full mouse-clicker’s PoV.

Oozo.7856:

A few comments.

1. Fights like these are only going to be interesting if you include voice. That is what these fights are all about. Communication, movement, position, and coordination. You can only get a feel for that if we hear your commands.

2. Don’t cover up the action bars.

3. Don’t post movies from a full mouse-clicker’s PoV.

You will rarely if ever get full comms. Guilds work very hard at what they do. To post videos with comms, thats kind of giving away how they do things. At least, I know thats why i wouldn’t personally want full comms posted.

point 2 and 3. yes. I agree. Again. Only videos I had on hand in my personal guilds forums.

I found:

Velocity [VcY] vs Nugos [Nug]:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjTH6hYMX5g

War Legends [WL] vs Za Drots [ZDs]: (Full Raw Footage)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi_2h3uZA48

The Rise [Rise] vs Golden Horde [GH]:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsUGci9skRo

[Unit] vs [HuP]:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IixFfKKXosU

Za Drots [ZDs] vs Seven Instincts [siN]: (Pre-Culling removal)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWhKfhvJL_U

A good 15- 20 minutes of youtube searching =P

Theres plenty of other videos out there that I haven’t mentioned.
Just wanted to give a picture of the amounts of guilds that enjoy it!

Loken.9724:

Oozo.7856:

A few comments.

1. Fights like these are only going to be interesting if you include voice. That is what these fights are all about. Communication, movement, position, and coordination. You can only get a feel for that if we hear your commands.

2. Don’t cover up the action bars.

3. Don’t post movies from a full mouse-clicker’s PoV.

You will rarely if ever get full comms. Guilds work very hard at what they do. To post videos with comms, thats kind of giving away how they do things. At least, I know thats why i wouldn’t personally want full comms posted.

point 2 and 3. yes. I agree. Again. Only videos I had on hand in my personal guilds forums.

I understand the desire to keep some of your tactics hidden to the enemy. But if you want to entertain people and draw them in you really need to include communication for these fights.

Keep the calls to push, flank, retreat, etc. Those are things only meaningful for that one fight. Some things are just common knowledge that everyone already knows. You can keep that stuff in the movie.

Just edit out things that you want to keep to yourselves. Trust me, this will make a much more entertaining movie which would actually help your cause since it would draw more people in.

Oozo.7856:

Loken.9724:

Oozo.7856:

A few comments.

1. Fights like these are only going to be interesting if you include voice. That is what these fights are all about. Communication, movement, position, and coordination. You can only get a feel for that if we hear your commands.

2. Don’t cover up the action bars.

3. Don’t post movies from a full mouse-clicker’s PoV.

You will rarely if ever get full comms. Guilds work very hard at what they do. To post videos with comms, thats kind of giving away how they do things. At least, I know thats why i wouldn’t personally want full comms posted.

point 2 and 3. yes. I agree. Again. Only videos I had on hand in my personal guilds forums.

I understand the desire to keep some of your tactics hidden to the enemy. But if you want to entertain people and draw them in you really need to include communication for these fights.

Keep the calls to push, flank, retreat, etc. Those are things only meaningful for that one fight. Some things are just common knowledge that everyone already knows. You can keep that stuff in the movie.

Just edit out things that you want to keep to yourselves. Trust me, this will make a much more entertaining movie which would actually help your cause since it would draw more people in.

I think a happy middle ground is remove all chatter from the fight, and then add in your own voice afterward with commentary.

Why did we do this? Why did I just CC there? How were we able to counter that? etc etc

Similar to commentators during sports games.

I really would like to see an answer from Anet. Not having the chance to have an equal fight with another guild in a game called “Guild Wars” just sounds wrong. To me at least.

Anet, please hire me for this project. I promise I have ideas

WRod.3856:

Anet, please hire me for this project. I promise I have ideas

This is the shortest resume I have ever seen.

What are some of your ideas?

Add a spectator mode to it to. Watched RG and DAWN go at for a while was actually kinda fun to watch

VK, 5v5 today before reset?

Last time I checked this game was called “Guild Wars 2.” It’s about time for it to live up to its name.

I really enjoyed the GvG instances from GW1. They also allowed for spectating.

If any of you haven’t heard about our 5-8 man tier 8 platform please check out the small man/havoc thread. If you enjoy GvG and roaming at the same time
In open world pvp, the 6 5 man guilds currently in tier 8 and the 2 more joining us (legit crews that run 5-8 guild groups nightly) are in the process currently of creating a guild vs guild player vs player platform because Anet hasn’t.

Currently there is: KoM, PAXA, BS, FoE, WZ, Set, and Deth (OINK and Invi) are transferring to this tier this weekend.

We will be holding more meetings to solidify a platform I.e (which two maps per day that will be run on by all the small mans, every 5 man having a tier shift “pot” to pay to the guilds on the one server that changes to get them back, the group sizes and setting up semi-rules for AJing ect.).

If any of you enjoy a more hardcore approach to player vs player / GvG send me a pm or post here and we (as tier can help get you your guys down here for focused pvp.

Snowreap.5174:

so basically a fifth WvW map with no objectives (and therefore no reason to go there unless you just want to fight for the fun of it)? this doesn’t sound technically difficult.

lol, you could put the entry portals to this new map behind the windmills on each of the three borderlands maps (so as to avoid cluttering up the spawn point with portals that most players won’t care about).

-ken

I think this is not WvW this is sPvP for Guild vs Guild… something missing in this game… it would be amazing.

WRod.3856:

VK, 5v5 today before reset?

umm yes!

whisper me in game

Judging by the AC thread, we will only need 1600 more posts to get a reply from ANET. Keep posting vids and comments!

I’d expect this to be added as an addition to sPvP. Tournaments is what the whole E-Sport platform is for. Camera’s for spectating already in place. They just need a map for you. I wouldn’t be surprised if this has been in the works.

…btw, you still have to make digs at how others chose to play the game?

Snowreap.5174:

so basically a fifth WvW map with no objectives (and therefore no reason to go there unless you just want to fight for the fun of it)? this doesn’t sound technically difficult.

lol, you could put the entry portals to this new map behind the windmills on each of the three borderlands maps (so as to avoid cluttering up the spawn point with portals that most players won’t care about).

-ken

This actually sounds like a really simple & elegant solution.

if they make a fifth WvW map for guild vs guild fights, or fight clubs, they could make map chat cross-server to make it easier to set up fights.

-ken

Unfortunately.5940:

Snowreap.5174:

so basically a fifth WvW map with no objectives (and therefore no reason to go there unless you just want to fight for the fun of it)? this doesn’t sound technically difficult.

lol, you could put the entry portals to this new map behind the windmills on each of the three borderlands maps (so as to avoid cluttering up the spawn point with portals that most players won’t care about).

-ken

This actually sounds like a really simple & elegant solution.

Brilliant!

Jscull.2514:

If any of you haven’t heard about our 5-8 man tier 8 platform please check out the small man/havoc thread. If you enjoy GvG and roaming at the same time
In open world pvp, the 6 5 man guilds currently in tier 8 and the 2 more joining us (legit crews that run 5-8 guild groups nightly) are in the process currently of creating a guild vs guild player vs player platform because Anet hasn’t.

Currently there is: KoM, PAXA, BS, FoE, WZ, Set, and Deth (OINK and Invi) are transferring to this tier this weekend.

We will be holding more meetings to solidify a platform I.e (which two maps per day that will be run on by all the small mans, every 5 man having a tier shift “pot” to pay to the guilds on the one server that changes to get them back, the group sizes and setting up semi-rules for AJing ect.).

If any of you enjoy a more hardcore approach to player vs player / GvG send me a pm or post here and we (as tier can help get you your guys down here for focused pvp.

I saw that thread and really liked the idea. We run about 15 most days so not suited to it really but i prefered your solution to the problem really. GvG is ok … i prefer the fights that just happen in wvw that happen to be even for whatever reason.
The place gvg fights happen is pretty boring, its just one long flat surface – i dont like the various rules guilds want to impose on it (outside of even numbers).
I like having to watch your back in wvw, i like being outnumbered occasionally or having a real disadvantage (or advantage) because of the environment.
GvG is just very sanitised and feels … different

I’m kind of sick of wvw atm because being outnumbered 2:1 against a guild that would give us a really tough fight 1v1 is about the best i can hope for most days. Being outnumbered 4:1 against an organised guild group or 500:1 against a pug group is par for the course and its getting really, really old.

Yes we could recruit more and run 25-30 but the pugs will just bunch up in larger numbers (fair enough they need to to compete) and guilds that are allergic to one wipe on a night will just recruit 20 for every 10 we recruit. Anyway i like the 15 / 20 man size group.

Having a somewhat designated tier for groups of various sizes would be really nice.

(EDIT: Turned into a mega post tl;dr at bottom)

agree 100% with the OP. (good post!)

One very important thing to remember is that Anet does not want to splinter the already small community that has become its PvP. (both spvp and WvW) For instance when they talk about splitting solo/duo ques and full 3 round tournaments for SPvP. If you take a step back, this is a valid concern for a design team. Having a fractioned player base via multiple game types, makes it harder to focus on the overall balance of a game, and thus decreases the actual fun to be had. It also leaves players with no clear agenda or purpose (progression). All of this would also be true with separating WvW and GvGs.

However, as the OP has pointed out there does need to be a place for GvGs. It is one of the most fun and dynamic aspects within the game. And if cultivated by anet, would greatly extend the longevity and popularity of the game.

I think GvGs should still be attached to the WvW ruleset instead of making it another facet of Spvp. This is because the basis for why GvGs are popular stems from WvW gameplay itself. A GvG in its current state is how guilds can test their mettle and size themselves up against other guilds, in a pure form. Meaning no interference from outside sources and equal numbers. It also allows guilds to recognize possible weaknesses in their “comp” so that they can improve upon them so that they can translate into performing better on the field where it “counts.”

But separating completely would affect the flow of the WvW system already in place. I know if there were a separate GvG format I would direct all my efforts and time to doing JUST that. And many other people would too, possibly jeopardizing the still active form of WvW as we know it today. As a reaction to that, a degraded WvW game type would then take away from the drive to GvG in the first place. Resulting in two slightly broken forms of game play. (this being the splintered player base I tried to describe above)

If you’ve followed me this far then you begin to see the problem. The fact is that there needs to be a place for GvGs without fully taking focus away from the current WvW system. I think its completely possible, and should happen, but perhaps not as easily done as people might think.

One Idea Ive had (im no game designer) is to implement an instance that two smaller groups from opposing servers can enter, within the WvW maps. The instance it self is just a very simple battlefield type area (the current known gvg spot would be perfect to model after) then the two groups fight, without siege and even numbers.. aka a GvG happens. The winner claims the structure (or whatever contains the instance, think a shrine or something RPish) and reaps the reward, be it an actual reward that affects the match point-wise or just a fame reward (like the names of the victors are broadcast through-out all three servers of that matchup).

Think of it as a kind of instanced- king of the hill- objective within WvW. Then a countdown starts till the next time an opposing server is allowed to go to the “shrine” and challenge the holding server. (this keeps ppl from just spam GvGing there and disrupting the flow of WvW) The challenge gives the defending server an amount of time to return with the required player amount, and then the next GvG occurs.

Now this is no where close to completed idea, but I think something like this would be possible and still keep WvW and GvG connected and not splinter the player base. It gives highly organized and competitive guilds a sense of purpose and prestige without having to detract from the flow of WvW. It would also motivate ALL who participate in WvW to become better and more organized players, and help break up these horrible server lagging mega zergs that are currently prominent. Finally, it would add yet another dynamic layer to the WvW system as a whole. As servers would develop their overall strategy to incorporate this. (Think: “ok who will be on to take over GvG duties at this time? How bout so-and-so guild they said theyve come up with a counter to that one guild thats been killing us in there! Ok let them have it!” )

Sorry for the wall, can you tell Ive been thinking about this a lot?

tl;dr: I agree, GvG needs to happen. But it can not take away too much from overall flow of WvW.

Thanks for taking the time to compile this ! I’m a firm supporter of GvGs!

Hope there will be possible intentions to add this game mode!

Not sure why its difficult to just have a standard map with no objectives other then defeating the other team. Have like a 2 minute spawn timer or something with a 15v15 20v20 set up. Seems legit.

Legit question – for 5v5 couldn’t you rent (not sure how that works) an sPvP map and go to town in there? Or are those maps to crowded with structures?

It seems like a-net could just expand their sPvP maps to include more players.

Personally I’d rather them add distance between defense points and work on small group/open field mechanics. Usually these gvgs are set up at the end of the week making the damage on PTT negligible.

Maps are too small and the fact that 30% of every borderland is water is just wasted space. We need more open fields/ mountainous passes that can be used to gain/lose advantages in fights.

In the end, it’s WvW, not GvG, and you shouldn’t risk putting a queue on a map unless you’re actually contributing to the score. That’s not to say I haven’t spent some time on GvG here and there, but…yeah. If you want fights, go out and find them.

Besides, “GvG” shouldn’t be 10+. We all know what that starts to turn into, and you can play 5-10 vs 5-10 in sPvP.

Good post OP.

@rmBossa creating a new mode for GvG outside WvW would separate even more the community, if done badly. There are other modes of GvG in other mmorpgs that work very well and would be a good addition to this game without destroying the WvW mode.
Take the example of Perfect World International. The GvG (aka World War) feature was great for guilds. It was rather simple (with LOL-like map and objectives), but it gave a lot of motivation because it had a mass scale PVP for Guilds (up to 100 members), it happened only once a week, it had PVE incorporated (attacking an unclaimed map would lead your guild to a PVE instance), it gave rewards to the Guilds (which would split them through their members if you were in a good guild) and it had strategic choices (to attack a new map, to defend the ones we have, or to do both with less strengh in each one).
Something like this would only take guilds from WvW once a week and I believe ArenaNet would do something much better in terms of maps and objectives.

@Christos de Soufre, GvG with 10+ players would be awesome. sPVP = 5-10 fights, but GvG should be about all your members participating in a large scale battle as a guild and not as a small part of it.

EDIT: there’s still a problem with the Represent feature though. It had to be limited at some point.

gvaughn.4163:

Legit question – for 5v5 couldn’t you rent (not sure how that works) an sPvP map and go to town in there? Or are those maps to crowded with structures?

It seems like a-net could just expand their sPvP maps to include more players.

Yes, this is a possibility with the custom arenas coming, but I think the issue with it is that SPvP balance and gear is different from WvW, which is where those guilds spend their time playing and are already used to their setup.

Christos de Soufre.3802:

In the end, it’s WvW, not GvG, and you shouldn’t risk putting a queue on a map unless you’re actually contributing to the score. That’s not to say I haven’t spent some time on GvG here and there, but…yeah. If you want fights, go out and find them.

Besides, “GvG” shouldn’t be 10+. We all know what that starts to turn into, and you can play 5-10 vs 5-10 in sPvP.

uh what?

No…

watch the videos i linked earlier

if you aren’t going to contribute to anything, then don’t

we aren’t asking to queue maps. We want a clean environment that has nothing to do with queueing wvw maps where we can have organized fights.

people, please read before posting -.-

LOL. I love when people don’t read the original post and than feel the need to spam their ignorance to the world.

I’m still all for this. To be honest, after witnessing the uproar GvG folks can cause to a server, I think it would be healthy to separate them. That fact that you aren’t fighting as a world but, a select few, that’s already throwing out the window the spirit of WvW. Thinking about it more, it really shouldn’t have any BoH’s and print drops from it either.

This is still a great idea, it just needs to be it’s own entity within the Mist. Have it own resources allocated to it and all.