Guild Wars 2

Last night we had a good sized group of about 65 people break through the outer and inner wall of a mostly upgraded keep without even a hint of real resistance. Feeling lucky that we might have caught the enemy off-guard we pushed through… This ended quickly when we got to the 1 single doorway into the keep lords room only to find that about 12 enemy had built 10 arrow carts and 2 bals inside(we know cause after we server hopped to see what they had).

We tried using retaliation walls but it didn’t work (apparently that works more on open field or isn’t really as big of an issue as people say). We then tried to pull the keep lord out but that didn’t matter since they had the altar of power in their with them and the orb on it. So we tried to bubble and rush through and everyone got cut down before making it through the hallway. That is the story of how 12 people held a keep from 65 people with no real effort to hold the walls or gates.

Unfortunately this strategy is just going to be widely used to make the Hills keeps invulnerable until it is fixed all day any day simply have 1 person every 15 minutes go and get on every piece of seige then when an attack starts just run your zerg straight in and wait. GG

So you’re complaining that someone used strategy to beat your zerg?

Good for them.

Hint: Use other siege against them.

EDIT: And ya know something else? If the shoe was on the other foot then people would come make posts about how keeps are not defensible…

Just can’t win.

Sadly a single mesmer could have portal’d your entire zerg on top of the siege with a quick swap to utilities and maybe to their elite. I’ve had to do it many times at SMC. Zergs will always win, if they use the counters they have.

So you are going to admit to server hopping to see what the enemy is up to and complain that they have siege guarding an objective?

I find these reactions funny tbh. Im not QQing or crying about it. The hallway in is 10 feet long 5 feet wide you can’t aim your own seige into it but they only need to jam up the end. Clearly not intended and you will all probably complain when you are on the other end. WvW isn’t going to get better unless people can come together and say hey lets fix this instead of trying to make ourselves feel better by insulting the person who reports an issue.

“I find these reactions funny tbh. Im not QQing or crying about it. The hallway in is 10 feet long 5 feet wide you can’t aim your own seige into it but they only need to jam up the end. Clearly not intended and you will all probably complain when you are on the other end. WvW isn’t going to get better unless people can come together and say hey lets fix this instead of trying to make ourselves feel better by insulting the person who reports an issue.”

And server hopping is helping this, how?

You guys got outplayed, hands down. This isn’t exploiting, it’s fair tactics. Get over it. If anything, this group ought to be awarded for such cunning in my book…

Objective response to the OP and TO the following posts.

If the physics of the keeps were working IE solid walls, roofs, etc an arrow cart in a 20’ room would be useless. The arrows would slam into the ceilings and upper walls since arrow carts are not direct fire as we all know.
Based on this supposition either this is an exploit, IE the arrow carts were not designed to be “inside” firing thru walls and ceilings. OR the devs somehow forgot that the insides of structures need physics as well.
As far as tactics go im all for tactics as long as it doesnt involve doing something that couldnt really happen like ever.

BladeOfLuxon.7896:

“I find these reactions funny tbh. Im not QQing or crying about it. The hallway in is 10 feet long 5 feet wide you can’t aim your own seige into it but they only need to jam up the end. Clearly not intended and you will all probably complain when you are on the other end. WvW isn’t going to get better unless people can come together and say hey lets fix this instead of trying to make ourselves feel better by insulting the person who reports an issue.”

And server hopping is helping this, how?

You guys got outplayed, hands down. This isn’t exploiting, it’s fair tactics. Get over it. If anything, this group ought to be awarded for such cunning in my book…

Fair tactics includes arrow carts arrows shooting through walls? Clearly not working as intended.

Defence should always be in a btter position than attackers.

Well before we cry for fix on the siege weapons inside of the keep we may want to ask for fix of the reflective shields ( a tactic you were more then happy to try and abuse ) that prevent any normal defense of the outer walls. Arrow Carts that are the primary defensive weapon against infantry is rendered useless after the 10-th volley by one or two characters in an 60 ppl zerg. Balistas, catapults and trebuchets are not as affected as arrow carts but suffer from plenty of other limitations when used as defensive weapon and often because there quite “visible” profile are quick target for the high range classes.

So yeah while the siege weapons inside the lord room is cheap – it’s even cheaper running around and spamming reflective shield on high cluster of friendlys to brake any defense of towers and keeps.

mirrored feedback and or whatever the guardian skill is that reflects projectiles back. problem solved. or mesmer portal bomb. whichever you prefer.

Or guardian sanctuary chain to build your own siege and take theirs out. Play smarter not harder.

100% you coulda wiped out every single arrow cart with a skilled catapault or treb operator.

Haha I find this soo funny. OP would be the first to complain that he couldn’t place siege equipment inside the lords room if position were reversed.

@ Jnight Actually I wouldn’t Jnight. I am not complaining I am asking for a fix and people are trying to act like I am QQing. It doesn’t phase me at all and I will continue to respond to the thread with reasonable and non-troll comments.

@Silentfear I agree that there is another issue. However the old adage of “Two wrongs don’t make a right.” comes to mind here. Just because one thing is broken doesn’t mean we shouldn’t point out that the other is.

@Archaeneoso – As for the issue of a catapult or trebo the hallway into the Hill keep is 5 feet wide say 12 feet high and 10 feet long, all of the enemies equipment was outside of the visible arc so no you couldn’t have just shot in there and gotten in.

@ SyphenThe retaliation was spammed by the guardians and did nothing (maybe nerf maybe just bad luck) bubbles were placed but in the end all 60 people died trying to push in.

@Teulux What your trying to say about zerging is just silly 60 people on teamspeak organized went the back way not mindless to the front of inner, went up clearing the walls before going to the lord, went to push in and got cut down.

@All, there are really only two ways this type of stuff will work out, either the game will get fixed or people will stop playing. Attacking people that are pointing out clear unintended issues doesn’t help the game get better.

I have a feeling this is Dragonbrand vs. Maguuma, in which case I was one of the players defending that keep.

We had the orb in the keep and we were quite intent on keeping it, the Dragonbrand zerg cut through the outter walls rather quickly, and a group of us barely got there in time before the inner gate was breached. Thankfully some players had thought ahead and placed arrow carts in Lord/Orb room.

This allowed us to stop the Dragonbrand zerg in it’s tracks, an advantage we desperately needed as in the early morning hours they greatly outnumber us.

To the people saying that Dragonbrand should have used counter siege: They tried, and at first many of us in the keep room were freaking out when we saw the build sites going up, but we quickly realized that the siege was near ineffective and hence not much of a threat. We managed to pot shot them dead anyway, but the arrow cart had limited range, and the catapult couldn’t hit any of our siege inside the room and was limited to just knocking those of us back that stood in the corridor/stairs.

We wiped them twice, on their third attempt they did manage to destroy the alter but not get a hold of the orb. However what’s really lame is the orb reset in our North alter and was thus easily taken by Dragonbrand, a valiant defense that proved vain in the end, though we did keep our keep.

Other than the loss of our orb there was one other thing that was bothering a lot of Maguuma defenders… a lot of Dragonbrand started attacking through the wall and were able to destroy a few of the arrow carts that way, and we had to stay away from that wall to avoid taking damage, which I believe is one of the factors that led to the alter being destroyed as it thinned out the defensive line on that side of the room.

If this was Dragonbrand against Maguuma, we couldn’t have survived the repeated attempts without reinforcements. This meant that we had nobody anywhere else, but we weren’t losing the rest of the map for some reason. As for the attacks themselves. They all rushed in, we lost all of our equipment, and had to rush supplies in to rebuild. I think this was just played wrong on the side of the attackers. We had to rebuild all of our defenses each time after an attack all the while worrying that they’d come back too fast. They didn’t. Even if they had just found a way to keep the waypoint contested after they wiped that room, we wouldn’t have been able to get any supplies in.

We have been on the end of that strat and have done it ourselves, speed buff and dodge through and try and aoe the siege pop cd’s but the worst thing you can do is to stop and try and pick up downed players when your being aoe’d.

Slyther.1297:

I have a feeling this is Dragonbrand vs. Maguuma, in which case I was one of the players defending that keep.

We had the orb in the keep and we were quite intent on keeping it, the Dragonbrand zerg cut through the outter walls rather quickly, and a group of us barely got there in time before the inner gate was breached. Thankfully some players had thought ahead and placed arrow carts in Lord/Orb room.

This allowed us to stop the Dragonbrand zerg in it’s tracks, an advantage we desperately needed as in the early morning hours they greatly outnumber us.

To the people saying that Dragonbrand should have used counter siege: They tried, and at first many of us in the keep room were freaking out when we saw the build sites going up, but we quickly realized that the siege was near ineffective and hence not much of a threat. We managed to pot shot them dead anyway, but the arrow cart had limited range, and the catapult couldn’t hit any of our siege inside the room and was limited to just knocking those of us back that stood in the corridor/stairs.

We wiped them twice, on their third attempt they did manage to destroy the alter but not get a hold of the orb. However what’s really lame is the orb reset in our North alter and was thus easily taken by Dragonbrand, a valiant defense that proved vain in the end, though we did keep our keep.

Other than the loss of our orb there was one other thing that was bothering a lot of Maguuma defenders… a lot of Dragonbrand started attacking through the wall and were able to destroy a few of the arrow carts that way, and we had to stay away from that wall to avoid taking damage, which I believe is one of the factors that led to the alter being destroyed as it thinned out the defensive line on that side of the room.

Ok so you admit that you had them (siege weapons) inside, that you could fire out and that they could not fire in……..sounds exploity to me….

Sounds like you got destroyed in Hill keep on border lands. Mesmer portal into the room stops that strategy, or your own arrow carts firing around the corner. In the future when you get beat take some time to develop your own solution. For the most part there are counter strategies to everything in WvW.

What ever happened to players actually fighting eachother using their own skills. It would be nice if siege weapon locations were limited to walls and courtyards

SoulstitchMMO.1396:

Sounds like you got destroyed in Hill keep on border lands. Mesmer portal into the room stops that strategy, or your own arrow carts firing around the corner. In the future when you get beat take some time to develop your own solution. For the most part there are counter strategies to everything in WvW.

lol i dont reside on dragonbrand or maguuma was simply pointing out what he said. go home troll.

oh and as to your comment one exploit (seige equipment inside) being beaten with another exploit (culling times) does not make it ok, cool or a strat.

Hexd.4796:

What ever happened to players actually fighting eachother using their own skills. It would be nice if siege weapon locations were limited to walls and courtyards

Because skill won’t matter much when the enemy has twice as many players as you. If anything, they showed skill by setting up equipment there. It’s called making a stand and sometimes it’s all you can do to try to hold off the Zerg.

Xercisis.9768:

Slyther.1297:

I have a feeling this is Dragonbrand vs. Maguuma, in which case I was one of the players defending that keep.

We had the orb in the keep and we were quite intent on keeping it, the Dragonbrand zerg cut through the outter walls rather quickly, and a group of us barely got there in time before the inner gate was breached. Thankfully some players had thought ahead and placed arrow carts in Lord/Orb room.

This allowed us to stop the Dragonbrand zerg in it’s tracks, an advantage we desperately needed as in the early morning hours they greatly outnumber us.

To the people saying that Dragonbrand should have used counter siege: They tried, and at first many of us in the keep room were freaking out when we saw the build sites going up, but we quickly realized that the siege was near ineffective and hence not much of a threat. We managed to pot shot them dead anyway, but the arrow cart had limited range, and the catapult couldn’t hit any of our siege inside the room and was limited to just knocking those of us back that stood in the corridor/stairs.

We wiped them twice, on their third attempt they did manage to destroy the alter but not get a hold of the orb. However what’s really lame is the orb reset in our North alter and was thus easily taken by Dragonbrand, a valiant defense that proved vain in the end, though we did keep our keep.

Other than the loss of our orb there was one other thing that was bothering a lot of Maguuma defenders… a lot of Dragonbrand started attacking through the wall and were able to destroy a few of the arrow carts that way, and we had to stay away from that wall to avoid taking damage, which I believe is one of the factors that led to the alter being destroyed as it thinned out the defensive line on that side of the room.

Ok so you admit that you had them (siege weapons) inside, that you could fire out and that they could not fire in……..sounds exploity to me….

Wait, so chokepoints are now exploits? If the siege is built in a corridor, it is only going to be able to be fired pretty much straight forward (unless it is right at the edge, where it opens into the room). According to the post, it was hitting players in its path just fine. The arrow carts were in a large room where they were able to be lined around the room, pointing toward the corridor. So, the defending team used the chokepoint to their advantage. That sounds like defense, not exploits.

What’s next? I fired my spell at the enemy and he moved behind a tree and it was obstructed! EXPLOIT!

In reading some of these responses, what should a handful of defenders do when facing 10 times their number? Might as well hit " M" and port out.

Your mistake was you didn’t cross realm before the fight and check out what they had. / sarcasm off

skeeman.3140:

Xercisis.9768:

Slyther.1297:

I have a feeling this is Dragonbrand vs. Maguuma, in which case I was one of the players defending that keep.

We had the orb in the keep and we were quite intent on keeping it, the Dragonbrand zerg cut through the outter walls rather quickly, and a group of us barely got there in time before the inner gate was breached. Thankfully some players had thought ahead and placed arrow carts in Lord/Orb room.

This allowed us to stop the Dragonbrand zerg in it’s tracks, an advantage we desperately needed as in the early morning hours they greatly outnumber us.

To the people saying that Dragonbrand should have used counter siege: They tried, and at first many of us in the keep room were freaking out when we saw the build sites going up, but we quickly realized that the siege was near ineffective and hence not much of a threat. We managed to pot shot them dead anyway, but the arrow cart had limited range, and the catapult couldn’t hit any of our siege inside the room and was limited to just knocking those of us back that stood in the corridor/stairs.

We wiped them twice, on their third attempt they did manage to destroy the alter but not get a hold of the orb. However what’s really lame is the orb reset in our North alter and was thus easily taken by Dragonbrand, a valiant defense that proved vain in the end, though we did keep our keep.

Other than the loss of our orb there was one other thing that was bothering a lot of Maguuma defenders… a lot of Dragonbrand started attacking through the wall and were able to destroy a few of the arrow carts that way, and we had to stay away from that wall to avoid taking damage, which I believe is one of the factors that led to the alter being destroyed as it thinned out the defensive line on that side of the room.

Ok so you admit that you had them (siege weapons) inside, that you could fire out and that they could not fire in……..sounds exploity to me….

Wait, so chokepoints are now exploits? If the siege is built in a corridor, it is only going to be able to be fired pretty much straight forward (unless it is right at the edge, where it opens into the room). According to the post, it was hitting players in its path just fine. The arrow carts were in a large room where they were able to be lined around the room, pointing toward the corridor. So, the defending team used the chokepoint to their advantage. That sounds like defense, not exploits.

What’s next? I fired my spell at the enemy and he moved behind a tree and it was obstructed! EXPLOIT!

Ummm No the point is they were hitting people in the hallway and outside from inside but the reverse was not happening……..since obviously arrows dont fly thru walls and ceilings normally i would say this is an exploit……. in your rage example the tree would actually stop the spell the walls and ceiling are not.

BTW if they had ballista in there and were direct firing down the hall no issue as a matter of fact well played, but that clearly wasnt the case because we all know culling would limit the number of targets so aoe is the answer.

really if your going to argue a point get informed.

Unfortunately piling on siege behind a choke point is currently the only viable way of defending a keep against a large attacking force. If you defend from the walls you get hammered down in seconds by multiple stacked AOE attacks because all the defenders are packed together on the wall near the gate making them easy prey. Walls should give a defensive advantage to the defender, not an advantage to the attacker!

Xercisis.9768:

Ummm No the point is they were hitting people in the hallway and outside from inside but the reverse was not happening……..since obviously arrows dont fly thru walls and ceilings normally i would say this is an exploit……. in your rage example the tree would actually stop the spell the walls and ceiling are not.

BTW if they had ballista in there and were direct firing down the hall no issue as a matter of fact well played, but that clearly wasnt the case because we all know culling would limit the number of targets so aoe is the answer.

really if your going to argue a point get informed.

That’s not what was happening. Have you seen that room? We were just spamming the entrance to the hallway so if they came in it would hurt. When they came in far enough to be hurt, they could see all of our siege equipment we were hiding around the corners.

Personally, I was just hoping they would get bored and go away.

I would have paid real money to see this battle unfold. I bet the defenders were shacking in their boots the whole time!

Regardless of this specific situation, they definitely need to look at the patching and collision detection for arrow carts. Those things can pierce through reinforced wood and stone…kind of crazy (gates in particular)

I disagree. Siege is fine for the most part. People need to learn the curve and learn the counters.

If they patch the siege for collision detection, they’d need to do the same for every AoE ability in the game. Repairing a gate is brutal!

Xia.3485:

If they patch the siege for collision detection, they’d need to do the same for every AoE ability in the game. Repairing a gate is brutal!

I completely concur with that.

The only issue I have is with arrow carts los, you can literally fire under structures they are set on, make it a really fast grenade-like projectile or something, us grenadiers already deal with it, can’t throw too far in a cave or I hit the ceiling…
Otherwise its just a really annoying ambush strategy, if you have enough people with supply get a catapult or trebuchet to snipe them. Though there I have a problem with retaliation, in the time it takes to reload shots the out of combat regen kicks in, thus there is no penalty for eating shots, kind of a stupid mechanic.

SoulstitchMMO.1396:

I disagree. Siege is fine for the most part. People need to learn the curve and learn the counters.

I am well aware of the abilities of arrow carts and that currently they use some form of phasing technology to drop arrows anywhere the green circle is. wether that is three quarters down the tunnel at the lake tower, inside any of the keeps and their respective tunnels or as previously stated thru walls and gates.

As i previosly stated i have no prolem with strategy, I have a problem with broken. I also have a problem with exploits just like building seige engines in areas where they are protected and players immune. There are alot of legitimate issues going on that are unrelated to knowing counters. (most of which involve exploiting other issues)

if everyone stepped back for a second from the i win you suck mentality you might realize there are some serious issues.

Xercisis.9768:

if everyone stepped back for a second from the i win you suck mentality you might realize there are some serious issues.

I strongly feel siege should be buildable anywhere. I also strongly feel every wall should be destroyable. They’re covering the only door into the orb room with arrow carts and balistas? Make a new door!

If they spent that much time and supplies upgrading that keep, others should have been weak and there for the taking….

This strategy was used by Jade quarry against Henge of Denravi, to hold hills for extra 2 hours.. 15 guys inside, 60-70 outside atacking..
and the 3rd world(Stormbluff) atacked Henge from behind a couple times too.. but they failed

What the did was setup balistas in the bridge and slowly kill the arrow carts, catapults, balistas inside..
Also Necros were trowing poison and other crap inside tru walls.. very low dmg to arrow carts, thats why it took them 2 hours.
Thieves where going in invisible and others clases rushing inside with stability, invulnerability, things like that..just to hit the carts 1 or 2 times.. then releasing and coming back from their start point..
its a slow push, takes time, lots of people with patience..

Henge could break tru in 2 hours(props to them), so could have you..

did Jade quarry exploit/cheat to defend seting siege inside? no, not really, everyone does it and everyone is aware of it..

did Henge of Denravi exploited/cheater to atack? well, aside from the necros trowing aoe inside tru the walls, i dont think so.. they used time, lots of players, retaliation and everything one could think of..

Learn from your mistakes, do it beter next time.

Xercisis.9768:

Slyther.1297:

…but the arrow cart had limited range, and the catapult couldn’t hit any of our siege inside the room and was limited to just knocking those of us back that stood in the corridor/stairs.

Ok so you admit that you had them (siege weapons) inside, that you could fire out and that they could not fire in……..sounds exploity to me….

They were firing into the room, the catapult couldn’t hit our siege due to its placement. Our siege also had limited range, the two ballistas we had could only shoot people that tried to rush in, and the arrow cart spam was focused on the corridor entrance. (The radius of the circle may have been enough to barely reach outside, which would account for us hitting them from inside, though their arrow cart did the same to us during the short time it was up)

Those of us not on siege were standing in our arrow spam trying to pick off people in the zerg, and we’d back off when we got to low health from return fire. The catapult was knocking us around until we managed to kill it.

They were mostly standing on the bridge firing at those of us in the corridor firing out, it was really a stalemate, they couldn’t rush us, we couldn’t leave.

Xia.3485:

I would have paid real money to see this battle unfold. I bet the defenders were shacking in their boots the whole time!

It was indeed a bit nerve-racking to be making that last stand in the room, but despite losing our orb anyway due to it resetting in the North alter it was a fun battle. (We kept the keep as they didn’t come back once they got the orb.)

I’ll consider having Bandicam running in the future, though I’ve no real experience in video editing.

Sounds totally okay for me. I mean they payded for the siege. There was room to place the siege. And don’t the siege need supply too? You could just wait until until night until they are all sleeping lol. Then attack everything and they wasted all their money.

At least not that much of an exploit like the mesmes making portals into a keep which walls are not destroyed yet.

Last night we had a good sized group of about 65 people break through the outer and inner wall of a mostly upgraded keep without even a hint of real resistance.

I stopped reading after this. Your night capping of poorly defended keeps failed? Nice. I like to read that