(edited by Stiv.1820)
Stiv's ultimate WvW progression system
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I like you idea Stiv….. people are going to think we are daoc mad soon but im only using it a reference as the longest serving mmo i have played… uo close second…I personally think we should have ra’s also in gw2.
When fighting enemy players in daoc you see there race and there rr title depending on there realm and at rr 12 you got to see the players name infront of there title. this gave you a good indication of how well you was doing.. if you beat someone higher rr then you played well if you got owned you have a excuse and if it was close then you can pick out the positives… people get to stuck on giving people a bonus for playing more… people who play more create a better game for the casual players, a stable environment so to speak
I like RAs and all that too but we got to respect the Guild Wars core which is power plateau. Basically, a very casual and easy to access PvP end game where everyone is more or less on equal footing. I am all for this because I hate gear treadmill games.
I played Counter Strike for years with no progression other than personal skill and my server’s stats page. Stat tracking is very addicting in it’s own right. If they also add a points (like Realm points) system to unlock titles and skins/animations/whatever that adds zero power it would be very tasty gravy.
Yeah something similar was in LOTRO too, many titles for amount of kills. Some titles were only achieved by few after YEARS of constant PvMP.
There could be so many titles here. You defended Wildcreek 10 times? You get a Wildcreek Guard title. 100 times? Wildcreek Saviour. And so on. Right now you get only 1 title for a particular thing, while there should be dozens, at different levels.
There could be special cosmetic rewards for achieving the final milestones. For example defending Quentin Lake, you could unlock unique pieces of Quentin Lake Armor Set, starting with boots at 10 defenses and helmet and 100. Clear progression and goals.
I mean there are thousands of things that could be added as rewards. The already mentioned new animations. Modified particle effects on your skills. Armor skins. Titles. Ability to port to a tower even if it’s contested and has no WP, if you have defended it 1000 times. And so on.
Just out of curiosity, why do some of you feel the need to be rewarded for anything and everything you do? Are you that materialistic? Is it something about your upbringing? What is it about your internal makeup that makes it impossible for you to take satisfaction from accomplishments without some form of externalized recognition?
It would seem there are a growing number of people who claim to get ‘bored’ if they’re not constantly grinding something, or ringing some bell (in the form of titles, achievements, power progression, etc.)
What happened to, “I play more, I get better as a player”? Why does it have to be, “I play more, I want to shove that fact in other people’s faces”?
Success is supposed to be its own reward.
Yep, prefixes and suffixes as well or just let two show under the invader name. You could have “Immortal” for a 100/1 monthly K/D ratio and “1 man Army” for 500 solo kills. One title promotes zerging another soloing. If someone could get both then /salute.
Immortal Tarnish Cost Invader [Guild] – One Man Army
Of course have other lesser titles in between.
I don’t see any issue with your character progression in WvW. Yes, some unique stuff relied to it can be interessting.
I think major change should come with castle claiming. Yes their economic systeme works, since I play only WvW my gold level stay the same. I don’t earn or loose money. But I spend hours escorting supply to my fort, for uprades and sieges weapons. The problems comes when it is over, you juste sit out and don’t receive anything for this (even if you defend it like hell in outmaned condition). Maybe a “tax fee” coming from everyone using your merchant can be gived to the guild master. Or any case of micro economie comming from those tower/fort will be really interessting.
Just out of curiosity, why do some of you feel the need to be rewarded for anything and everything you do? Are you that materialistic? Is it something about your upbringing? What is it about your internal makeup that makes it impossible for you to take satisfaction from accomplishments without some form of externalized recognition?
It would seem there are a growing number of people who claim to get ‘bored’ if they’re not constantly grinding something, or ringing some bell (in the form of titles, achievements, power progression, etc.)
What happened to, “I play more, I get better as a player”? Why does it have to be, “I play more, I want to shove that fact in other people’s faces”?
Success is supposed to be its own reward.
With that mentality all Guild Wars 2 should have is sPvP.
How does a Kill to death ratio giving you a title option and a skin to buy or an animation to use have anything to do with how much you play?
The idea with stats is that there are so many, depending on your play style you can target whatever ones you wish.
(edited by Stiv.1820)
I don’t see any issue with your character progression in WvW. Yes, some unique stuff relied to it can be interessting.
I think major change should come with castle claiming. Yes their economic systeme works, since I play only WvW my gold level stay the same. I don’t earn or loose money. But I spend hours escorting supply to my fort, for uprades and sieges weapons. The problems comes when it is over, you juste sit out and don’t receive anything for this (even if you defend it like hell in outmaned condition). Maybe a “tax fee” coming from everyone using your merchant can be gived to the guild master. Or any case of micro economie comming from those tower/fort will be really interessting.
And what about a titles to show off that unlocks when you escort 100/250/500/1000 yaks? Would be cool i’d think for your situation. I foresee a bunch of “YAK ASSASSIN” titles attakcing “YAK DEFENDER” types.
(edited by Stiv.1820)
Just out of curiosity, why do some of you feel the need to be rewarded for anything and everything you do? Are you that materialistic? Is it something about your upbringing? What is it about your internal makeup that makes it impossible for you to take satisfaction from accomplishments without some form of externalized recognition?
It would seem there are a growing number of people who claim to get ‘bored’ if they’re not constantly grinding something, or ringing some bell (in the form of titles, achievements, power progression, etc.)
What happened to, “I play more, I get better as a player”? Why does it have to be, “I play more, I want to shove that fact in other people’s faces”?
Success is supposed to be its own reward.
With that mentality all Guild Wars 2 should have is sPvP.
How does a Kill to death ratio giving you a title option and a skin to buy or an animation to use have anything to do with how much you play?
The idea with stats is that there are so many, depending on your play style you can target whatever ones you wish.
Your statement about sPvP makes no sense.
I have no problem with cosmetic progression, I just don’t understand some people’s need (yours included, apparently) to wave it in other people’s faces. If you achieve something, good for you. Don’t go cluttering up my screen with your lack of job, relationships, or sleep.
All they have to do is add stat tracking, publishing on an external website *cough*WoWarmory Camelotherald*cough*, and add in cosmetic kitten for WvW ranks.
Done.
Sidenote: badges already exist as WvW currency.
If you can’t read English, please do not reply to my post.
I don’t see any issue with your character progression in WvW. Yes, some unique stuff relied to it can be interessting.
I think major change should come with castle claiming. Yes their economic systeme works, since I play only WvW my gold level stay the same. I don’t earn or loose money. But I spend hours escorting supply to my fort, for uprades and sieges weapons. The problems comes when it is over, you juste sit out and don’t receive anything for this (even if you defend it like hell in outmaned condition). Maybe a “tax fee” coming from everyone using your merchant can be gived to the guild master. Or any case of micro economie comming from those tower/fort will be really interessting.
And what about a titles to show off that unlocks when you escort 100/250/500/1000 yaks? Would be cool i’d think for your situation. I foresee a bunch of “YAK ASSASSIN” titles attakcing “YAK DEFENDER” types.
I agree, Title should be added. It is logical and really cost efficient.
Just out of curiosity, why do some of you feel the need to be rewarded for anything and everything you do? Are you that materialistic? Is it something about your upbringing? What is it about your internal makeup that makes it impossible for you to take satisfaction from accomplishments without some form of externalized recognition?
It would seem there are a growing number of people who claim to get ‘bored’ if they’re not constantly grinding something, or ringing some bell (in the form of titles, achievements, power progression, etc.)
What happened to, “I play more, I get better as a player”? Why does it have to be, “I play more, I want to shove that fact in other people’s faces”?
Success is supposed to be its own reward.
With that mentality all Guild Wars 2 should have is sPvP.
How does a Kill to death ratio giving you a title option and a skin to buy or an animation to use have anything to do with how much you play?
The idea with stats is that there are so many, depending on your play style you can target whatever ones you wish.
Your statement about sPvP makes no sense.
I have no problem with cosmetic progression, I just don’t understand some people’s need (yours included, apparently) to wave it in other people’s faces. If you achieve something, good for you. Don’t go cluttering up my screen with your lack of job, relationships, or sleep.
Maybe I’m not understadning you. You said:
" why do some of you feel the need to be rewarded for anything and everything you do? Are you that materialistic? Is it something about your upbringing? What is it about your internal makeup that makes it impossible for you to take satisfaction from accomplishments without some form of externalized recognition?"
How does this not apply to almost everything outside of sPvP? Getting full exotics, dungeon drops, crafting legendaries, obtaining commander book, heck even leveling up and getting skills and traits. All of this is “reward for anything and everything you do”.
Even sPvP has glory and skins/ranks. What am I missing here?
What gets me is people like mcl here will be gone in a while once he gets bored with the play because of… no progression! Oh, he wont admit that, even to himself. He will just say “I found another game” or “I got all i wanted out of the game”. Its so typical too. Most of the “i dont need rewards!” players are not even posting here anymore. Who wants to put money on the fact that they went back to WoW to play gear grind?
^
Stop projecting, IMO.
If you can’t read English, please do not reply to my post.
Er. I think post-cap progression is silly for the precise reason that I do not need some external recognition system to constantly pat me on the back to keep me from getting bored. I agree with EasymodeX: you’re projecting.
I like you Stiv.
Stiv, this is a great post dude, as Scilly obviously agrees. Ideal ways to go about adding more content that doesn’t have to be statistical gear progression.
^
Stop projecting, IMO.
Lol I played DAoC for years. Even when we were outnumbered and had 0 relics, I was out there playing. Wanna know why? Realm Points. See, when i quit this game because of no progression, i wont try to fool myself into thinking it’s another reason. I’ll know that’s why I did.
Er. I think post-cap progression is silly for the precise reason that I do not need some external recognition system to constantly pat me on the back to keep me from getting bored. I agree with EasymodeX: you’re projecting.
Where do you draw the line with “Post cap progression”? Cap to me is simply whatever the maximum stats you can possibly get for the build you want.
So do I understand you correctly that you don’t believe people should be able to craft legendaries? Isn’t the fact they are holding a huge glowing sword throwing in your face the fact they spent all that time and effort crafting it?
On the other hand, as far as having success be it’s own reward. How can you possibly know how many solo kills you have or your kill death ratio even for personal use if it’s not tracked?
You also realize there are all sorts of titles that exist in game currently for different achievements right? This is just building on the system that already exists.
If you don’t like Guild Wars 2 then that’s ok with me. I just wonder why you are playing a game like this? Or does “post cap progression” (as far as skins and titles go) only bother you if it’s PvP based?
I’m not the one craving change to GW2 to prevent me from “getting bored”. I like GW2 just fine, thanks.
I’m not the one craving change to GW2 to prevent me from “getting bored”. I like GW2 just fine, thanks.
I’m just pointing out that you aren’t being intellectually consistent. How can you chastise people for wanting post cap progression in WvW when it exists elsewhere in the game already such as legendaries?
If I read this correctly, you are simply suggesting a continuous stream of aesthetic crap to achieve… with no bonuses to stats or “power level” of any kind.
If that is true, I 100% support it.
Sky – [tSA] – Stormbluff Isle
November 15, 2012 – The day a dream died.
November 15, 2012 – The day a dream died.
I’m not the one craving change to GW2 to prevent me from “getting bored”. I like GW2 just fine, thanks.
I’m just pointing out that you aren’t being intellectually consistent. How can you chastise people for wanting post cap progression in WvW when it exists elsewhere in the game already such as legendaries?
Legendaries are part of the cap. “post-cap progression” would mean a progression system on top of what currently exists as the power plateau in the game: max level, max stats, max armor and weapons.
And as I already stated, I have no problem with cosmetic progression, except that all it does is feed the egos of those who want it, because you don’t just want stats and titles: you want stats and titles to be visible by everyone, with no option to disable the viewing of those.
As I said before, you seem to need some constant external reward to keep you happy, and you need to be able to lord it over others by forcing them to be exposed to those rewards.
I’m not the one craving change to GW2 to prevent me from “getting bored”. I like GW2 just fine, thanks.
I’m just pointing out that you aren’t being intellectually consistent. How can you chastise people for wanting post cap progression in WvW when it exists elsewhere in the game already such as legendaries?
Legendaries are part of the cap. “post-cap progression” would mean a progression system on top of what currently exists as the power plateau in the game: max level, max stats, max armor and weapons.
And as I already stated, I have no problem with cosmetic progression, except that all it does is feed the egos of those who want it, because you don’t just want stats and titles: you want stats and titles to be visible by everyone, with no option to disable the viewing of those.
As I said before, you seem to need some constant external reward to keep you happy, and you need to be able to lord it over others by forcing them to be exposed to those rewards.
Legendaries add zero power. They are the definition of “post cap”. They are not needed to play the game and simply are eye candy. How do I disable seeing enemy Legendaries in WvW again? Afterall, it bothers me that they flaunt the fact they took the time and spent hundreds of skillpoints/gold etc etc.
Skins, titles and animations are all cosmetic. Those are the only visible things I propose.
I’m not the one craving change to GW2 to prevent me from “getting bored”. I like GW2 just fine, thanks.
I’m just pointing out that you aren’t being intellectually consistent. How can you chastise people for wanting post cap progression in WvW when it exists elsewhere in the game already such as legendaries?
Legendaries are part of the cap. “post-cap progression” would mean a progression system on top of what currently exists as the power plateau in the game: max level, max stats, max armor and weapons.
And as I already stated, I have no problem with cosmetic progression, except that all it does is feed the egos of those who want it, because you don’t just want stats and titles: you want stats and titles to be visible by everyone, with no option to disable the viewing of those.
As I said before, you seem to need some constant external reward to keep you happy, and you need to be able to lord it over others by forcing them to be exposed to those rewards.
Legendaries add zero power. They are the definition of “post cap”. They are not needed to play the game and simply are eye candy. How do I disable seeing enemy Legendaries in WvW again? Afterall, it bothers me that they flaunt the fact took the time and spent hundreds of skillpoints/gold etc etc.
“Hey, there’s already visual clutter in the game. Let’s add tons more!”
Brilliant.
And need I point out you’re specifically suggesting adding them to a system that already had problems displaying what’s in the game now, prior to the 9/7 patch. After the 9/7 patch, almost everyone’s invisible and nameplates aren’t even displaying.
And you want to further burden that system with yet more customization, for the sake of your ego?
In what universe does that make sense, exactly?
Legendaries are not post-cap progression. Edit: I guess this gets into the “parsing words” part. Terminology in this thread is adding unnecessary confusion.
I personally don’t care one way or another if ANet adds more cosmetic stuff, although I think it would be a positive addition to the game, so I support it.
The concept of people “only playing for PH4T L3WTZ” is kitten WoW-baby mentality though. Kids that get trained to chase a carrot of +5 stats so they think everyone else has the same values. Absurd.
If you can’t read English, please do not reply to my post.
(edited by EasymodeX.4062)
If I read this correctly, you are simply suggesting a continuous stream of aesthetic crap to achieve… with no bonuses to stats or “power level” of any kind.
If that is true, I 100% support it.
Yes sir!
edit: or Ma’am
This should of be done in first place. Right now PvP is just one boring capture this, capture that map with 0 goals e spatialy on personal level . I have 700 medals end don’t rely know what to do with them. If it stays the same this will get bored in a month .
So YEAH .. u got my vote for this. Hope Anet do something about that. WvW need that system ….. period !
Viggen ( SF ) warrior – JQ
Want some…..come get some !
Want some…..come get some !
I’m not the one craving change to GW2 to prevent me from “getting bored”. I like GW2 just fine, thanks.
I’m just pointing out that you aren’t being intellectually consistent. How can you chastise people for wanting post cap progression in WvW when it exists elsewhere in the game already such as legendaries?
Legendaries are part of the cap. “post-cap progression” would mean a progression system on top of what currently exists as the power plateau in the game: max level, max stats, max armor and weapons.
And as I already stated, I have no problem with cosmetic progression, except that all it does is feed the egos of those who want it, because you don’t just want stats and titles: you want stats and titles to be visible by everyone, with no option to disable the viewing of those.
As I said before, you seem to need some constant external reward to keep you happy, and you need to be able to lord it over others by forcing them to be exposed to those rewards.
Legendaries add zero power. They are the definition of “post cap”. They are not needed to play the game and simply are eye candy. How do I disable seeing enemy Legendaries in WvW again? Afterall, it bothers me that they flaunt the fact took the time and spent hundreds of skillpoints/gold etc etc.
“Hey, there’s already visual clutter in the game. Let’s add tons more!”
Brilliant.
And need I point out you’re specifically suggesting adding them to a system that already had problems displaying what’s in the game now, prior to the 9/7 patch. After the 9/7 patch, almost everyone’s invisible and nameplates aren’t even displaying.
And you want to further burden that system with yet more customization, for the sake of your ego?
In what universe does that make sense, exactly?
Those are completely separate issues. I know I can never change your mind. At least anyone who comes here to read this thread will be able to see you are not consistent in your arguments and subjectively choose what you accept and don’t.
Also, If you don’t think they are going to add a ton more “visual clutter” to this game in the future then, I don’t know how to break it to you other than say… they are!
Those are completely separate issues. I know I can never change your mind. At least anyone who comes here to read this thread will be able to see you are not consistent in your arguments and subjectively choose what you accept and don’t.
Also, If you don’t think they are going to add a ton more “visual clutter” to this game in the future then, I don’t know how to break it to you other than say… they are!
Since you’ve yet to do so, please point out the inconsistencies in my argumentation.
NOTE: your incorrect definition of “post-cap progression” doesn’t count.
Perhaps what wee need are forum titles, showing all the diehard, tryhard DAoC fanatics who insist on DAoCizing GW2, or who are incapable of enjoying any game that doesn’t play just like DAoC.
That would, indeed, make identifying people easier, and allow us to act accordingly.
Fist I need to make sure you understand that legendaries give no higher stats than exotic. They add no power.
Assuming you know that fact: Legendaries are huge visual indicators of someone’s PvE (or worse, credit card) achievements. They are there, in your face with nothing you can do about it. This is exactly what you are railing against in this thread. Yet you are fine with it.
You seem to think just due to the fact they exist today it’s ok. Nothing can be added later along those lines (big in your face HAY LOOK AT ME stuff). That’s pretty ridiculous seeing how new this game is.
That’s not argumentation inconsistency. That’s you going, “Hey, this one example of a bad idea is already in the game; let’s use that as an excuse to add a boatload more!”
You assume I am okay with and like the legendary weapon system currently in place. While it’s cute and good for a giggle or two (“Hey! A bow that shoots unicorns with rainbow trails!”), that gets old after about the first 10 seconds of seeing it in use, and becomes nothing more than an on-screen annoyance.
The fact that people are complaining about how hard they are to get (a month after release, when these are things that shouldn’t even be achievable in a year’s time, and yet several people already have them) is testament to the fact that people these days want everything and they want it right now.
Add cosmetic progression to WvWvW, and you’ll have people focused on grinding that progression, rather than the purpose of WvWvW: To win. Which means ignoring your personal goals to support the team effort.
(and if you were going to point out inconsistencies in my argument, that would be a perfect one to point out. Although it’s not an inconsistency per se; it’s just me actually finding another reason not to like cosmetic progression. This one just happens to be more substantial than, “I don’t particularly care to see your in-game overcompensation for some real-life lack on my screen”. This one actually highlights how in-game post-cap cosmetic progression would detract from WvWvW play.)
(edited by mcl.9240)
That’s not argumentation inconsistency. That’s you going, “Hey, this one example of a bad idea is already in the game; let’s use that as an excuse to add a boatload more!”
You assume I am okay with and like the legendary weapon system currently in place. While it’s cute and good for a giggle or two (“Hey! A bow that shoots unicorns with rainbow trails!”), that gets old after about the first 10 seconds of seeing it in use, and becomes nothing more than an on-screen annoyance.
The fact that people are complaining about how hard they are to get (a month after release, when these are things that shouldn’t even be achievable in a year’s time, and yet several people already have them) is testament to the fact that people these days want everything and they want it right now.
Add cosmetic progression to WvWvW, and you’ll have people focused on grinding that progression, rather than the purpose of WvWvW: To win. Which means ignoring your personal goals to support the team effort.
Ok, then you are the fish out of water here. You are playing a game that is based around visual progression. The entire business model of this game relies on it. I can spend $$ and kill you with a cow! Or buy a dapper chestpiece to not impress you with.
You are indicating that you do not like how this entire endgame is designed and detest the type of person it attracts because it offends your social/philosophical sensibilities.
You can wonder why people want this stuff all day and I will wonder why you are playing Guild Wars?
No, I’m quite fine with how the endgame is designed. The endgame is designed to put an end to any sort of progression whatsoever (outside of cosmetic, and the only really annoying cosmetic progression currently in game are a lot of the legendary models and effects) and to focus on getting better as a player, not “who has the most stuff/money/time on their hands”.
You’re indicating that you are not interested in bettering yourself as a player, and in fact the concept bores you and (by your argument) many others. You’re suggesting an annoying, visually-invasive, post-cap grind to gain all sorts of new visual effects and models as well as titles that everyone else will be forced to view, and which the game engine will be forced to deal with, when it’s been amply demonstrated it can’t even handle what’s currently in the game.
In sum: I’m not the one unhappy with the status quo here. You are.
Why in your mind is bettering yourself as a player and attaining cosmetic and title based progression (already in game) mutually exclusive? I can only do one or the other? I cannot contribute to my team if stats are being recorded behind the scenes?
How about this. It’s would easy enough to code. Add an option to disable all titles and skins for your client. It just makes everything default. You can effectively opt out of any of this “annoying” stuff. Or is it still not ok because other people would be enjoying this system that you aren’t apart of?
As long as winning in WvW is congruous to accruing the cosmetic rewards, there should be no issue.
Wish I could spend badges to buy dyes.
the game engine will be forced to deal with, when it’s been amply demonstrated it can’t even handle what’s currently in the game.
This is incorrect. The game has a culling problem in the engine that more a silly design thing than anything. Player PCs do not have an issue with the graphical load in most cases, and that would not change with any amount of cosmetic stuff.
If you can’t read English, please do not reply to my post.
I’m with mcl on this one. While WvW needs work, I don’t think cosmetic items, titles, etc. will fix it. They’ll only serve to hurt it. They need to get the core issues fixed before they do anything else just to appease the “I wanna show off” crowd.
- Squads should be basic game functionality. The squad leaders should get a new icon above his/her head and on map that only squad members can see. This will let guilds use this in both WvW and PvE easily.
- The commander tag (the blue tag that’s visible to everyone on map) needs to be a WvW only thing that can only be bought with a WvW currency.
- Camp/Tower/Keep upgrades should cost WvW currency not cash.
And I won’t get into all of the scoring and technical issues in place now…
Leader of Marked Souls [MkS]
Jade Quarry
Jade Quarry
(edited by kousei.5914)
I don’t think the context of this thread included the notion of NOT fixing WvW design/mechanics/UI issues.
If you can’t read English, please do not reply to my post.
Why are you proposing this? By your argument, because people will become bored with the game without it.
Why would people grow bored? Because they are unable to feel fulfilled via internal motivation, i.e., personal goal-setting and subsequent attainment of those goals. By your argument, they need a virtual participation trophy for every aspect of WvWvW, lest they grow bored and wander off to greener pastures.
What constitutes internal motivation? Bettering oneself as a player. Learning all the intricacies of playing your profession of choice, maximizing your build, and becoming the best player you can be, without the need for external display of said achievement.
Why isn’t this sufficient? Beats me. Professor? Why isn’t that sufficient? Why will people grow bored and leave without something to grind? Why does everyone feel the burning urge to be treated like a special snowflake and a pretty pretty princess, to be told they are special and unique and that they deserve a reward just for trying?
Why is post-cap progression a bad idea, even if it’s just cosmetic? Even if there’s a way for people to opt-out of seeing it? Because rather than focusing on team objectives, they will become obsessed with the grind. They will forego team goals to focus on individual goals. They will stop trying to win for winning’s sake, and will instead start focusing on upping their K/D ratio (go ask FPS players how well that’s worked out for them; or just check the math and realize you can min-max K/D in ways other than being a superhuman killing machine that never dies, and those ways are much easier AND detrimental to team play), or whatever other stat they’re currently grinding for the sake of a shiny title or pretty dress. They will become more selfish and less focused on winning the match when the team’s goals conflict with their individual goals of achieving title X or shiny Y to demonstrate how good they are. Which is simply ridiculous, because — Western cultural norms aside — how good you are isn’t defined by your possessions, even when they’re virtual.
Why are you proposing this? By your argument, because people will become bored with the game without it.
Why would people grow bored? Because they are unable to feel fulfilled via internal motivation, i.e., personal goal-setting and subsequent attainment of those goals. By your argument, they need a virtual participation trophy for every aspect of WvWvW, lest they grow bored and wander off to greener pastures.
What constitutes internal motivation? Bettering oneself as a player. Learning all the intricacies of playing your profession of choice, maximizing your build, and becoming the best player you can be, without the need for external display of said achievement.
Why isn’t this sufficient? Beats me. Professor? Why isn’t that sufficient? Why will people grow bored and leave without something to grind? Why does everyone feel the burning urge to be treated like a special snowflake and a pretty pretty princess, to be told they are special and unique and that they deserve a reward just for trying?
Why is post-cap progression a bad idea, even if it’s just cosmetic? Even if there’s a way for people to opt-out of seeing it? Because rather than focusing on team objectives, they will become obsessed with the grind. They will forego team goals to focus on individual goals. They will stop trying to win for winning’s sake, and will instead start focusing on upping their K/D ratio (go ask FPS players how well that’s worked out for them; or just check the math and realize you can min-max K/D in ways other than being a superhuman killing machine that never dies, and those ways are much easier AND detrimental to team play), or whatever other stat they’re currently grinding for the sake of a shiny title or pretty dress. They will become more selfish and less focused on winning the match when the team’s goals conflict with their individual goals of achieving title X or shiny Y to demonstrate how good they are. Which is simply ridiculous, because — Western cultural norms aside — how good you are isn’t defined by your possessions, even when they’re virtual.
This is a good point, but one that isn’t based on the idea of cosmetic rewards so much as very badly designed metrics.
As long as individual rewards contribute towards team success, this is not an issue.
Sky – [tSA] – Stormbluff Isle
November 15, 2012 – The day a dream died.
November 15, 2012 – The day a dream died.
The system i propose would have goals for all types of players. Team players and soloists. Why is massive team play the only way? Because you deem it so? Sentries, yaks and supply camps exist for solos and smaller groups. Can they only be taken down if the “command chain” deems it worthy?
If there is a soloist out there who is killing yaks for a dumb title isn’t that helping?
Everything you said basically translated in my mind to “People will stop zerging and focus on other goals in WvW”. Sounds good to me. I’d love to run across some dude trying to wrack up solo kills. I’d love if some groups broke from the zerg to get some group/squad based rewards for taking supply camps.
This is a video game after all.
Last night a buddy and I build a Golem. Just the two of us for no reason other than to do it. We walked around with it and had a great time until it eventually got zerged down. Did we help the team? I don’t know, maybe by distracting more than our numbers for a time? Maybe not because we wasted 100 supply (that probably got taken by the other side before being used). Either way we had fun. Fun is fun and this system would make the game a lot for fun for a lot of people.
This is a good point, but one that isn’t based on the idea of cosmetic rewards so much as very badly designed metrics.
As long as individual rewards contribute towards team success, this is not an issue.
Any reward can fail to contribute to team success at a particular time.
Grinding yak-killing? Team needs to focus on taking other objectives? You’re not working towards team success.
Grinding K/D? So you’re hiding on the walls, AoEing anything and everything with skills or a siege weapon or cannon? When you’re needed to help defend another location under attack and undermanned? You’re working against team success.
Grinding “build X siege weapons”? You keep building arrow carts in the keep, taking supplies from the keep when your team has repeatedly warned everyone not to take those supplies? Not working towards the team goals.
Grinding “Killed X mesmers”? So rather than deal with the most immediate threat in a fight, you spend all your time looking for mesmers, and because you weren’t focusing on the people killing your commander or the force by the door (or healing your team), you lost your team objective or didn’t achieve your team goal? Once more, not so much a team player.
It doesn’t matter how they’re designed. The fanatic “must grind to whatever shiny thing is dangled in front of me” crowd will ignore the greater good for the benefit of their own selfish wants. Because they not only want the titles and shinies, they want them all. They don’t just want them all, they want to have them first. Because that, somehow, makes them better than other people in their mind. Meanwhile, their team suffers because a WvWvW spot that could’ve been filled by someone willing to fight to win is instead filled by someone just in WvWvW to grind titles and shinies. And it’s not just one slot, it’s a bunch of them.
This is a good point, but one that isn’t based on the idea of cosmetic rewards so much as very badly designed metrics.
As long as individual rewards contribute towards team success, this is not an issue.
Any reward can fail to contribute to team success at a particular time.
Grinding yak-killing? Team needs to focus on taking other objectives? You’re not working towards team success.
Grinding K/D? So you’re hiding on the walls, AoEing anything and everything with skills or a siege weapon or cannon? When you’re needed to help defend another location under attack and undermanned? You’re working against team success.
Grinding “build X siege weapons”? You keep building arrow carts in the keep, taking supplies from the keep when your team has repeatedly warned everyone not to take those supplies? Not working towards the team goals.
Grinding “Killed X mesmers”? So rather than deal with the most immediate threat in a fight, you spend all your time looking for mesmers, and because you weren’t focusing on the people killing your commander or the force by the door (or healing your team), you lost your team objective or didn’t achieve your team goal? Once more, not so much a team player.
It doesn’t matter how they’re designed. The fanatic “must grind to whatever shiny thing is dangled in front of me” crowd will ignore the greater good for the benefit of their own selfish wants. Because they not only want the titles and shinies, they want them all. They don’t just want them all, they want to have them first. Because that, somehow, makes them better than other people in their mind. Meanwhile, their team suffers because a WvWvW spot that could’ve been filled by someone willing to fight to win is instead filled by someone just in WvWvW to grind titles and shinies. And it’s not just one slot, it’s a bunch of them.
Well, those people are already here annoying you. WvW is always going to have it’s share of these kinds of players.
Honestly, this seems a little far fetched. I understand your concern, but really each of those situations could either be solved – or aren’t problems at all.
The only difference would be instead of these people sitting in the jumping puzzle, they might actually come do something on the main map.
Sky – [tSA] – Stormbluff Isle
November 15, 2012 – The day a dream died.
November 15, 2012 – The day a dream died.
You are nitpicking and you know it. I do admire your stance but ultimately for the health of the game, it’s best to appeal to both parties.
If self-gratification is achieved through progress in skill, then as such will be displayed on the battlefield. But for those who prefer tangibles (even if virtual), I believe they can be appeased as well.
For the sake of the game, you cannot shut out one or the other.
“For the sake of the game”?
The game’s a month old. Either produce data to demonstrate the game is dying, or produce peer-reviewed research that demonstrates the need for and success of virtual participation-trophy systems to forestall eventual playerbase decline.
Also note that, “Game X does it!” is neither of the above. Claiming other people do something is not support for an argument. It’s mob mentality. “Hey, they’re smashing windows and stealing TVs! Must be okay! Let’s go!”
Just because a lot of games have this sort of thing in them, does not mean every game must. Just because you’ve grown accustomed to them or unable to play without them doesn’t mean every player has.
One of the longest-running games with sustained popularity is CounterStrike. There’s ZERO progression in that game. Everyone is on a level playing field.
If you want to grind for continued achievement, there’s this thing a lot of people do these days…it’s called “work”. You even get paid to do it! You might be interested.
(edited by mcl.9240)
I support the addition of displayed titles. The rendering of a simple text string title takes no more additional processing time or power than rendering the “Enemy Invader” nameplate.
Whether or not you want titles is immaterial. Some people, including myself, would like to see them added, and they do not negatively impact the core game in any way. ANet could even add a toggle to your client to give you the option of whether your PC will display titles worn by others or not. It’s really not that big a deal. However, it IS a big deal for people chasing titles.
Yes, it may represent another carrot on a stick and some may look at it as a grind for titles. Yet it really has no negative impact on the core mechanics of the game. For me, personally I love fighting against someone with a higher ranked title and kicking the kitten out of them. Of course, the reverse is also true: “Man, I just got my kitten handled to me by a [insert elite title here]”.
As has already been argued elsewhere, XFire use is not a representative sample of the GW2 customer population. The data is therefore irrelevant.
I go into overflow all the time. The fact that today’s average number of players logged in is lower than launch is NOT a surprise. It’s normal. it happens in every game. Go ask a game publisher for general players-per-day trends over time, from launch onwards.
And there were a small but significant number of people just biding time until Pandaland came out; nobody would deny that.
So, you have the typical-to-every-game post-launch drop, and an expected drop due to the new WoW expansion, and your support for “the game is dying” is XFire data, which is, again, not a representative sample (which is a statistical term and a polite way of saying, “that data is meaningless”).
And this is your basis for wanting post-cap progression in WvWvW, of whatever form. Because if not, OMGTTEHGAMEWILLDIE!
Forgive me if I don’t hop on your particular bandwagon.
I support the addition of displayed titles. The rendering of a simple text string title takes no more additional processing time or power than rendering the “Enemy Invader” nameplate.
And yet, at the current time, the game has problems rendering the “Enemy Invader” nameplates, due to the 10/7 evening patch.
@mcl: FYI: the “invisible” rendering or culling issue is a completely separate technical matter altogether.
@mcl: FYI: the “invisible” rendering or culling issue is a completely separate technical matter altogether.
Until I see it fixed, I will continue to consider any suggestion that we further burden the game engine as specious.
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