Guild Wars 2

EDIT: Please read the entire thread before replying. Despite my snarky opening post, there is actually some very good discussion going on, and you will probably gain a lot of understanding on both sides of the issue by doing so.

From what I’ve seen over the past week or so, there’s a fairly vocal set of people on these forums that believe that it is somehow unfair or unbalanced that people who play at any time other than primetime are breaking WvW. I’m going to attempt to address the different arguments that have been posted, and hopefully shed some light on why most of them are, for the most part, utterly and completely preposterous.

The most common complaint that I’ve seen repeated is that it is unfair that all the progress that a server made during primetime is being undone by these mythical, super-elite night time players.

The justification that’s given to explain this is that one server with a high population of off-hours players can sweep in and capture entire maps while the other two servers have most of their own people logged off. That this is unfair, because the primetime player had to work harder in order to capture the same territory while fighting against even numbers of enemies. Furthermore, it’s explained that there is a significant demoralizing effect when the primetime players log on to find all of their ‘progress’ in WvW reset and lost.

First off, lets make something perfectly clear: WvW is not sPvP! I know, shocking! It’s not MEANT to be a completely fair matchup where all sides have their team numbers balanced perfectly. In truth, it’s quite the opposite: The fact that a server is, at all times, fighting against TWO other servers is fundamentally unbalanced! The entire reason why WvW is open-ended is to promote unbalanced and uncontrolled warfare! Spontaneous, chaotic, non-stop combat. Get that through your heads now, kids! It is not fair by design!

Second, how do you think the off-hours players feel when THEY log on and see their own server not controlling anything? They weren’t online to fight over it, so why shouldn’t they have a chance to take back what was lost while they were gone? Shouldn’t those players have a chance to get into WvW and get access to the same buffs and bonuses that everyone else does?

Third, I would have been more inclined to understand the complaints if people had argued that servers with large off-hours populations were unfair to their own ‘night’ crew players, and that the undermanned buff wasn’t strong enough to allow them a chance to fight back. But they aren’t doing that. They’re simply crying about their own personal loss in one of the most significant displays of entitlement and selfishness I’ve seen on the internet in a good long while. If primetime is when the most people are on, how is it not possible that they organize a counterattack to retake some territory instead of asking Anet to hand it to them on a silver platter.

Fourth: Some of the ‘solutions’ that people are coming up with are outright absurd. Lets look at a couple taken directly from these forums:

WvW should kick people out of the game to help balance the odds.

Really? How would you like it if you were playing and the game suddenly kicked you off? People already rage that they can’t get IN to WvW because of queues, and you want to actively remove people from the game? Ubelievable! The idea that someone else should not be able to play simply to defend your progress while you’re offline is so selfish that I’m amazed this person hasn’t starved because the food doesn’t throw itself into his mouth.

Limiting the amount of people who get to enter WvW based on what country they’re playing from.

Seriously? What possible justification could you give to say that someone who paid the same amount of money as you should have arbitrary limits on their play simply because they don’t live next door to you? How about US troops stationed over seas? How about students studying abroad? This kind of selfishness and limited view of the world is the worst. Try thinking past your own wants and desires for 10 seconds. /facepalm

Ultimately, what I see when I look at all of these complaint threads are people who don’t want to work to maintain their hold on WvW points. Most of the fun is fighting over these points and capturing or defending them. The back and forth. The organizing and overcoming despite the odds against your server. If anything, people should be happy that they see the entire map not controlled by them. It means they have every point on the four maps as an opportunity to go out and fight!

The larger issue is that Anet hasn’t nailed down their server balancing yet. Frankly, they haven’t had time to gather enough data, especially in light of all the server transfers that have been going on. Correct server matchups are going to take time. The fundamental rules of WvW are NOT flawed, it’s simply going to take time for the populations, skill, and organization levels of each server to even out.

IMHO that is the only real complaint about WvW, outside of exploits, that has merit: That server balancing isn’t accurate yet. In the meantime the solution people should be looking for should NOT be to ask for arbitrary rules to limit play, but to get their server organized. During primetime when you see a zerg coming for your keep, do you immediately alt-tab and post on the forums asking Anet to stop their zerg in the name of balance, or do you get in /team or /guild and call for backup? The ‘issue’ of night time players is no different. And if you can’t see that, then I’m sorry, but that is not the fault of the game.

Eliteseraph.4970:

It’s not MEANT to be a completely fair matchup where all sides have their team numbers balanced perfectly.

You are right, it isn’t meant to be completely fair matchup. On the other hand, I don’t think it’s meant to be completely unfair, as it often happens to be on some servers.

Btw, your wall of text and your clever header doesn’t make you look intelligent. It makes you look arrogant. The difference is huge.

I thought the OP was well thought out and quite intelligent as it correctly identifies the foolishness of people demanding changes because WvWvW isn’t going their way.

The simple fact is that in any matchup there can only be one winner. In any ladder there can only be one leader. If a server is stronger than you 24×7 then you will lose, get used to it. If you don’t like losing because of night capping then try and recruit your own night crew. Believe it or not there are plenty of people on your server during off peak hours. (Hint: all bar 3 US servers are currently High pop during US offpeak. One of those 3 servers is ranked 4th)

Arrogant or not I am quiet agree with him.
People should choose, if they want to maintain their score, then stay and defend the castle,
If you think this is just a game and doesn’t worth the extra effort, then go to bed or anything, but don’t whine about the score afterward.

I just find it silly that it is population which is dictating who’s on top of the ladder. And I am not alone with this point of view. Being skilled and coordinated during your prime time, means zip zero if noone is online to protect your structures at other hours.

Btw, the population problem creates a catch-22. People generally don’t like getting steamrolled, so many of them who are still online at off hours will simply leave the WWW at that hour, making the problem even worse. I don’t blame them.

Mara Gossep.2761:

I just find it silly that it is population which is dictating who’s on top of the ladder. And I am not alone with this point of view. Being skilled and coordinated during your prime time, means zip zero if noone is online to protect your structures at other hours.

If population is dictating everything then why is Eredon Terrace (medium pop during US offpeak) ranked #4 and currently kicking the tail of 2 unofficial Oceanic servers (both high pop during US offpeak). These are facts, not conjecture.

And if you don’t like losing things during offpeak then get your own offpeak players to do something about it. 3 medium servers and the rest high during Oceanic prime time proves that almost everyone has a healthy offpeak pop. Again, these are facts not conjecture.

People say to me. Grats on taking the tower you are only going to lose it when you log off though and I respond so? As if you need to own a structure long term? I

Tzash.5748:

Mara Gossep.2761:

I just find it silly that it is population which is dictating who’s on top of the ladder. And I am not alone with this point of view. Being skilled and coordinated during your prime time, means zip zero if noone is online to protect your structures at other hours.

If population is dictating everything then why is Eredon Terrace (medium pop during US offpeak) ranked #4 and currently kicking the tail of 2 unofficial Oceanic servers (both high pop during US offpeak). These are facts, not conjecture.

And if you don’t like losing things during offpeak then get your own offpeak players to do something about it. 3 medium servers and the rest high during Oceanic prime time proves that almost everyone has a healthy offpeak pop. Again, these are facts not conjecture.

I play on low pop at night, not medium. I play on EU server. Btw, you tell me to do something about it. Exactly what do you want me to do to make people stay online during off hours?
You act like it is my fault that people are not online during those hours, and my responsibility to fix. You act like it is the players responsibility to fix the high pop vs low pop issue at some hours. ANet could provide mechanics which would fix it (dynamic pop limit), making it medium pop vs medium pop, without moving any players around between servers. As I wrote elsewhere, people don’t only leave WWW because they need sleep, but also because of having little to no chance of getting any points (catch-22). At this point the only outcome of the WWW is a bleeding wallet and close to zero rewards. Don’t blame the player for an unfair matchup system please.

Hey OP, give this a rattle through your brain and then tell me how this will not kill the game mode for any server without a strong number of late-night players.
http://i552.photobucket.com/albums/jj339/DethPenguin/Guild%20Wars%202/gw683_zpsb12426e0.jpg

What -possible- incentive do I or anyone else have to keep playing WvW for the rest of the week after pressing B and seeing this?

Mara Gossep.2761:

Tzash.5748:

Mara Gossep.2761:

I just find it silly that it is population which is dictating who’s on top of the ladder. And I am not alone with this point of view. Being skilled and coordinated during your prime time, means zip zero if noone is online to protect your structures at other hours.

If population is dictating everything then why is Eredon Terrace (medium pop during US offpeak) ranked #4 and currently kicking the tail of 2 unofficial Oceanic servers (both high pop during US offpeak). These are facts, not conjecture.

And if you don’t like losing things during offpeak then get your own offpeak players to do something about it. 3 medium servers and the rest high during Oceanic prime time proves that almost everyone has a healthy offpeak pop. Again, these are facts not conjecture.

I play on low pop at night, not medium. I play on EU server. Btw, you tell me to do something about it. Exactly what do you want me to do to make people stay online during off hours?
You act like it is my fault that people are not online during those hours, and my responsibility to fix. You act like it is the players responsibility to fix the high pop vs low pop issue at some hours. ANet could provide mechanics which would fix it (dynamic pop limit), making it medium pop vs medium pop, without moving any players around between servers. As I wrote elsewhere, people don’t only leave WWW because they need sleep, but also because of having little to no chance of getting any points (catch-22). At this point the only outcome of the WWW is a bleeding wallet and close to zero rewards. Don’t blame the player for an unfair matchup system please.

Top alliances recruited off peak guilds, they didn’t beg ANet to fix it for them. The EU situation may very well be different but there are a heap of US players with the exact same complaint as you.

You also don’t seem to understand that the ranking system will ultimately pit similar servers against each other. It may be unfair now but will auto-correct itself. All dynamic pop caps do is punish off peak players.

Indirectly calling me a beggar is being childish and an attempt to drag the thread into a spiralling downfall of flaming & trolling.

Have a nice life !
/ignored

1. How is the fact that you are fighting two servers unfair? All three servers are fighting two different servers. There is nothing uneven about it.

2. If off-hour players log in to find them not holding anything, then there was likely a large population difference at other times. This is the issue.

3. “how is it not possible that they organize a counterattack to retake some territory” They usually do retake some territory during prime time. Just about every match has been at least close in potential points during the day.

4A. I probably would care too much about getting kicked out.
4B. Arbitrary limits? There are already limits during prime time on how many can get into WvW. Why are you so touchy about applying a similar process to off-hours?

WvW is a game. A game with a score. Prime-time has a balancing factor of population limits. I really don’t think it makes sense for a minority of the players to dictate the majority of the score.

Tzash.5748:

Mara Gossep.2761:

I just find it silly that it is population which is dictating who’s on top of the ladder. And I am not alone with this point of view. Being skilled and coordinated during your prime time, means zip zero if noone is online to protect your structures at other hours.

If population is dictating everything then why is Eredon Terrace (medium pop during US offpeak) ranked #4 and currently kicking the tail of 2 unofficial Oceanic servers (both high pop during US offpeak). These are facts, not conjecture.

And if you don’t like losing things during offpeak then get your own offpeak players to do something about it. 3 medium servers and the rest high during Oceanic prime time proves that almost everyone has a healthy offpeak pop. Again, these are facts not conjecture.

Server population is not the same as WvW population. I would not be surprised if ET has 24 hour WvW queues which would make their WvW population as high as any other server.

Lappdancer.4857:

4B. Arbitrary limits? There are already limits during prime time on how many can get into WvW. Why are you so touchy about applying a similar process to off-hours?

There are already limits during off peak too. My server has WvWvW queues during US off peak. You want to make those queues even longer just because we may get matched against a server who doesn’t feel like fielding a sizable team?

As usual people want solutions that only impacts someone else’s gaming experience.

Tzash.5748:

Lappdancer.4857:

4B. Arbitrary limits? There are already limits during prime time on how many can get into WvW. Why are you so touchy about applying a similar process to off-hours?

There are already limits during off peak too. My server has WvWvW queues during US off peak. You want to make those queues even longer just because we may get matched against a server who doesn’t feel like fielding a sizable team?

As usual people want solutions that only impacts someone else’s gaming experience.

“does feel like fielding” :lol:

And yes I would. It would encourage the fewer off-peak players to be less concentrated on certain servers and would hopefully help with competitive balance.

It’s pretty obviously your not one to care about competitive balance though.

Mara Gossep.2761:

I play on low pop at night, not medium. I play on EU server. Btw, you tell me to do something about it. Exactly what do you want me to do to make people stay online during off hours?

Perhaps try focusing all of the low pop people who ARE on into a single guild. Guildwars 2 allows people to be in multiple guilds at once. Talk to the other people who are on, see if they’re interested in WvW. Maybe they like being stomped as little as you do. Maybe they’re willing to work together to do something about it.

It’s been proven time and again that a smaller, more well organized and disciplined group of players can often accomplish amazing things.

You act like it is my fault that people are not online during those hours, and my responsibility to fix. You act like it is the players responsibility to fix the high pop vs low pop issue at some hours.

I do not claim that it is the players’ “fault”. I do, however, claim that the players CAN do something about it other than complain on the forums about how unfair a game that is meant to be unfair is. As the example of my last sentence in the OP stated: When a huge enemy force is coming for your keep, do you come to the forums to complain, or do you fight as best as you can? The only difference between primetime and off hours is the scale.

ANet could provide mechanics which would fix it (dynamic pop limit), making it medium pop vs medium pop, without moving any players around between servers.

Well gosh! Maybe Anet could come up with a magical system that tracks how well a server does and then matches it up against other servers that are closer to their own skill and population levels? Man, wouldn’t that be great!

And people wonder why I come off as such a smartass when I post….

As I wrote elsewhere, people don’t only leave WWW because they need sleep, but also because of having little to no chance of getting any points (catch-22). At this point the only outcome of the WWW is a bleeding wallet and close to zero rewards. Don’t blame the player for an unfair matchup system please.

The only complaint that people are making is that they don’t have their cake right now! The matchmaking system will balance out the servers eventually.

In the meantime, however, people aren’t even willing to try and work for their server and want Anet to force the game to make it easier for them(potentially screwing up the matchmaking even more). They aren’t willing to put in any effort to organize and want the game to do it for them with arbitrary buffs or debuffs or limitations on what they’re up against. They would rather roll over and not even try at all, or come here to cry about it instead of making the attempt.

The worst part about it is that even some of the people who are fighting and working hard during primetime are asking for changes that don’t even effect them at all. They want the game to limit what happens to other players while they themselves aren’t even playing!

But to get back on topic: Exactly HOW is there little to no chance of capturing points, anyway? How many people does it take to capture a camp? A Tower? A keep? Even a single player can apparently take on 10 enemies and successfully cause problems according to the thief forums(realistically more like 1v3 or 1v4).

But what if you can get even five of your own people to work together? Run around the map breaking supply camps and killing Dolyaks and scouts. Maybe attract some random people from the enemy to fight you. You might get smashed by a 30 person zerg, but so what? At least you’re fighting.

Now maybe you do that for a little while, and you and your four people keep at it and start to learn how each other plays. You start to get better, maybe get a voice chat going like Ventrilo or Mumble. You start to coordinate, and practice, and gear up. Maybe you still get zerged every now and then, but maybe your time and effort pay off and you start to smash people, even groups larger than your own. Maybe pick up a few more off-hours players along the way. Maybe next thing you know you’ve got a guild of players who are determined to fight in WvW and have fun no matter what happens.

And maybe, just maybe, along the way you find out that the effort was worth more than a complaining forums post, and what you did accomplish was much much sweeter because of how ‘unfair’ it all was.

This is the kind of approach to gaming and PvP and WvW that so many players don’t even consider. They just want everything handed to them, and don’t even see the potential that a map full of enemy controlled points presents.

Kromulous.4291:

What -possible- incentive do I or anyone else have to keep playing WvW for the rest of the week after pressing B and seeing this?

Um….how about the fun and the challenge of it? How about the glorious feeling of knowing you overcame people who had greater area control than you, or at least made them pay for every inch of ground they took?

It’s not only about getting bonuses for your server you know.

Mara Gossep.2761:

Indirectly calling me a beggar is….

I’m sorry you felt personally insulted, but isn’t that exactly what people on these forums are doing? I’m not saying that everyone is doing this, but what else do you call asking Anet to set it up the game so it’s easier for their own personal playtime, and covering it with weak arguments trying to mask it under the false guise of ‘balance’?

Lappdancer.4857:

1. How is the fact that you are fighting two servers unfair? All three servers are fighting two different servers. There is nothing uneven about it.

Because if one side holds most of the map, the two servers who are attacking only need to focus on taking points away from the current leader. They leader, however, has to respond to attacks on two fronts, complicated by the need to potentially defend many more points If the underdogs stupidly attack each other instead of the current leader, then that is their ownkittenfault, not the game’s.

Lappdancer.4857:

4B. Arbitrary limits? There are already limits during prime time on how many can get into WvW. Why are you so touchy about applying a similar process to off-hours?

There is quite a bit of difference between the game not allowing any more people into WvW because every available spot is full, and kicking someone out mid-game, especially for the selfish reason of preserving someone’s points while they aren’t online. It’s the difference between not being able to get into a sold out show, and having the ushers kick you out midway through while half the seats are empty because the earlier show was sold out and they don’t want to detract from the enjoyment the people in the earlier show had.

But is it fun?

My server is ahead of the competition by more then 320,000 points. We are winning. Hooray?

I have nothing to do in WvW right now. I could go join the spawn campers but meh.

I don’t want “balance”, per se, but a 320,000 point lead and nothing to do isn’t much fun.

I honestly cannot tell if OP is trolling or not. I will answer as if he wasn’t.

Eliteseraph.4970

“This is the kind of approach to gaming and PvP and WvW that so many players don’t even consider. They just want everything handed to them, and don’t even see the potential that a map full of enemy controlled points presents.”

I’m not completely sure, but it seems to me that you are saying that players shouldn’t feel “entitled” and that they shouldn’t be asking Anet to work on a plan to somehow mitigate real world issues that obviously detract from the full potential of this virtual world game (i.e. timezones & server population). If this is the case, in essence you are saying that it is OK for one one team to have tanks and the other to have slings. It seems a bit silly.

As for seeing the “potential that a map full of enemy controlled points presents”, I don’t understand what you are talking about. What I do understand is that some challenges and situations are more interesting than others. When I think of an interesting WvW match, I think of control points changing hands due to team effort and master strokes of strategy, or people collaborating to reinforce defenses and defend against sieges. When I think of a boring WvW match, I think of doing the same thing every day – i.e., going into WvW to find that once again my team needs to go from 0% map control to 33% map control. And then do the same thing the next day. And the next day. And the next day.

It seems like that sounds very interesting to you, but I’ve done it enough times by now and if this is the gameplay depth that WvW can provide (and I’m sure it isn’t, once issues are worked out), I’d rather go do something else with my time.

Kamos.2897:

I’m not completely sure, but it seems to me that you are saying that players shouldn’t feel “entitled” and that they shouldn’t be asking Anet to work on a plan to somehow mitigate real world issues that obviously detract from the full potential of this virtual world game (i.e. timezones & server population).

No, players shouldn’t feel entitled, especially not to the degree of some of the examples I gave in my original post.

Also, what exactly do you think the ranking system is, if not a system to help better mitigate uneven matchups like what we’re experiencing right now? Do you think Anet is just sitting on their hands laughing at the issue?

Kamos.2897:

As for seeing the “potential that a map full of enemy controlled points presents”, I don’t understand what you are talking about. What I do understand is that some challenges and situations are more interesting than others. When I think of an interesting WvW match, I think of control points changing hands due to team effort and master strokes of strategy, or people collaborating to reinforce defenses and defend against sieges. When I think of a boring WvW match, I think of doing the same thing every day – i.e., going into WvW to find that once again my team needs to go from 0% map control to 33% map control. And then do the same thing the next day. And the next day. And the next day.

It seems like that sounds very interesting to you, but I’ve done it enough times by now and if this is the gameplay depth that WvW can provide (and I’m sure it isn’t, once issues are worked out), I’d rather go do something else with my time.

So you’re only interested in combat where your server already has at least a decent level of control established? You log on, see that you’re at a low level of control and just give up and go do something else.

Basically, according to your own statement above, you’re admitting that you’re unwilling to actually fight as an underdog for your server or face the challenge of retaking territory that was lost, and would rather go do something else.

I, and many players like me, are the complete opposite. We enjoy fighting no matter what the odds are. We want to take our server and push it as high and as far as it can go.

But if all you want to do is drop down to a level where things are easy, then that’s your choice. No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to play. You’re not even paying a monthly subscription fee. Take some time off, let the rest of the week play itself out however and start fresh after the new matchup.

But for God’s sake, do NOT have the brass balls to demand that Anet force other people to play under arbitrary restrictions simply because you’re not up to the challenge, and especially not while you’re not even logged on.

If all you want is a perfectly matched challenge of skill and fairness, I suggest to you that you take a real strong look at all of the awesomeness that is provided in sPVP.

I won’t sit here and claim that WvW is perfect. The Orb bonuses are a little too much in their current form, and if that was the argument being made for why WvW is unbalanced, I would probably be one of the first to agree. But those aren’t the arguments people are making, nor are the suggestions for ‘fixing’ WvW even remotely interested in actually improving the situation.

Those are the kinds of people my posts are targetted at. Not the ones who understand that WvW is meant to be unbalanced and chaotic.

Eliteseraph.4970

So you’re only interested in combat where your server already has at least a decent level of control established? You log on, see that you’re at a low level of control and just give up and go do something else.

No, I am not only interested in combat where my server already has at least a decent level of control. As I clearly stated, I’m interested in playing the game without it being Groundhog Day.

Having everything you do undone by the next morning defeats the purpose of having week long matches. I don’t know why Anet would even bother with this if they cannot provide the players to properly man each team.

Eliteseraph.4970

WvW is a game of ruthless unfairness and hard combat.

No, sorry. If things keep going as they are, WvW will be a game of people taking camps by themselves and epic sieges of deserted towers. Get a grip.

Get 24/7 time zone’s covering your server
Or move to 24/7 coverage server if your serious about WvW.

I did it and iam not looking back altough i left a few people behind, but i like to play WvW and losing 100% of the map was making me sad.

Having a blast again in WvW now tough

As I clearly stated, I’m interested in playing the game without it being Groundhog Day.

Ok, so you’re not interested in anyone competing against you at all unless they let you hang on to your conquered sites for more than 24 hours?

Why does it matter if people recapture territory while you’re not on? What would you do if your server DID have lots of players on during the off hours, but they just sucked at WvW? Wouldn’t the result be the same? Would you still not bother with WvW if this was the case?

I don’t understand this kind of approach to WvW. The territory is there to be fought over, but you’re acting like you don’t want to have to risk losing it while you’re not on. Or at the very least, you’re unhappy that other people are getting to play under different circumstances than you.

How would it be even remotely fair to anyone who doesn’t play the same time as you if sites could only be captured during a very narrow window of time?

I suggest that you not look at it as having to reset every day, but instead view it as taking and holding a resource for as long as possible before eventually having to fight over it again. Points are calculated fairly often, and it’s not as though the other servers taking points nullifies your own accomplishments.

No, sorry. If things keep going as they are, WvW will be a game of people taking camps by themselves and epic sieges of deserted towers. Get a grip.

“If things keep going the way they are” only on the bottom-end servers where everyone gives up without trying will run into that sort of situation. Those same servers will likely also be filled with people who continue to complain that nothing is fair, and demand that the game change to cater to their own narrow view of selfish ‘balance’. And very likely will have a large number of people who transfer off of them, re-balancing the skill levels, eventually.

However, once matchmaking gets a more accurate measure of how each server is doing relative to the rest, the servers with motivated people will remain very consistently active at all times of the day.

Eliteseraph.4970

Ok, so you’re not interested in anyone competing against you at all unless they let you hang on to your conquered sites for more than 24 hours?

No, rather I’d like for there to be a possibility that my sites will be there for more than 24 hours. From this point onward I’ll just consider that you have somehow not read about this thing people call “nightime capping issue”.

Eliteseraph.4970

What would you do if your server DID have lots of players on during the off hours, but they just sucked at WvW?

Well, if they sucked a lot, maybe we would at least have a tower or a supply camp in some map. Which would be better than, say, having nothing.

Eliteseraph.4970

I don’t understand this kind of approach to WvW. The territory is there to be fought over, but you’re acting like you don’t want to have to risk losing it while you’re not on.

Oh? Is that how you see it? Interesting. Because I think I said I’d like to not have to face the same situation over and over. I’m pretty sure I’d be bored just as well if every time I went in the WvW I found my team occupying everything.

Eliteseraph.4970

Points are calculated fairly often, and it’s not as though the other servers taking points nullifies your own accomplishments.

As you say. Points are calculated pretty often. Now, if there is no one to defend during 10 hours of the day, how many hours of 100% map dominance are my opponents getting, again?

Eliteseraph.4970

only on the bottom-end servers where everyone gives up without trying will run into that sort of situation.

their own narrow view of selfish ‘balance’.

And very likely will have a large number of people who transfer off of them, re-balancing the skill levels, eventually.

Your logic is undeniable! Please provide me with your server ID, I’ll gladly join you and make your queue time unbearable.

Of course, I jest. I wouldn’t transfer out of my server – there is nothing wrong with it. But please, do keep boasting about your elite skill of being in a server with superior distribution of players across timezones. It is absolutely hilarious.

If people don’t want to fight because they see the score; then I suspect it’s not the WvW that pulls them in to begin with, but them thinking they would ‘win the game’.
Even if you end up on a server that ends up #1 on the ‘ladder’ – you’ve still not won anything.

Strange that for so many years since DAoC I’ve seen people clamouring about open world PvP and 3 faction warfare and what not.
Now we have something comparable at least, except for the long queues, and … wammo – people want it changed because it doesn’t let them ‘win’ and doesn’t enforce structure.
Guess what – we got run over by Albion zergs in DAoC for years but kept pushing back when we could. We lost relics at night, we took them back when we could. They got run over by us, they came back. They lost relics, they took them back.
That was the fun, as it will be here. Somebody caps everything when you sleep – go kick them around when you’re online so they can see that they’re only ‘winning’ because they cap while you sleep.
The fight is the fun.

If “you” want structure and enforced teams; sPvP in this game or perhaps something like CounterStrike would be the way to go.
If “you” want to be ‘leading to play’, I suspect few games will be fun – ever.

Kamos.2897:

No, rather I’d like for there to be a possibility that my sites will be there for more than 24 hours. From this point onward I’ll just consider that you have somehow not read about this thing people call “nightime capping issue”.

Oh, I’m familiar with the issue. I just don’t think a majority of the arguments people have been making about it are valid ones, especially in light of the ranking system. As I’ve stated before, the complaints people are making are based out of a desire for and immediate solution instead of waiting for the long-term, already established, and likely far more accurate and superior one.

Oh? Is that how you see it? Interesting. Because I think I said I’d like to not have to face the same situation over and over.

You mean like what happens every time the server ranking updates and resets everything?

As you say. Points are calculated pretty often. Now, if there is no one to defend during 10 hours of the day, how many hours of 100% map dominance are my opponents getting, again?

I believe that is a gross over exaggeration of the issue. Even on the most sparsely populated servers there are people playing during the off hours. It’s far more likely that 100% map domination is caused by players not even willing to try fighting back. Or worse, people doing the opposite and abusing the free transfers to jump ship to a side that’s already dominating.

Again, over time the server match making and lack of free transfers will smooth out the issue.

Of course, I jest. I wouldn’t transfer out of my server – there is nothing wrong with it. But please, do keep boasting about your elite skill of being in a server with superior distribution of players across timezones. It is absolutely hilarious.

Now you’re just trolling. I never once claimed any such thing about my server’s activity or my own skill levels, only my willingness to fight and my disgust and disappointment for people who believe the game should change to cater to their own personal enjoyment, to the exclusion of everyone who does not play similar times as them.

If 20 people can take the entire world and fortify SM, I’d say it’s a problem. If you want to make tranches of pvp servers, with free server transfers it’s going to devolve into top serverskitteneveryone for xp. Then moving on, with 20-50 commanders. Kind of obvious. A-Net relies on people being interested in the game, it’ll come to a grinding halt when we have the kind of silly wvwvw bias we have atm. Easy to fix though – I’ve been playing 3 way mmos for years. Debuff winners, allow communication (which is the point in 3 way balancing). Really a-net.

Xandax.1753:

If people don’t want to fight because they see the score; then I suspect it’s not the WvW that pulls them in to begin with, but them thinking they would ‘win the game’.
Even if you end up on a server that ends up #1 on the ‘ladder’ – you’ve still not won anything.

Strange that for so many years since DAoC I’ve seen people clamouring about open world PvP and 3 faction warfare and what not.
Now we have something comparable at least, except for the long queues, and … wammo – people want it changed because it doesn’t let them ‘win’ and doesn’t enforce structure.
Guess what – we got run over by Albion zergs in DAoC for years but kept pushing back when we could. We lost relics at night, we took them back when we could. They got run over by us, they came back. They lost relics, they took them back.
That was the fun, as it will be here. Somebody caps everything when you sleep – go kick them around when you’re online so they can see that they’re only ‘winning’ because they cap while you sleep.
The fight is the fun.

If “you” want structure and enforced teams; sPvP in this game or perhaps something like CounterStrike would be the way to go.
If “you” want to be ‘leading to play’, I suspect few games will be fun – ever.

This is, IMHO, a fine example of the correct way to view WvW.

Eliteseraph.4970

Now you’re just trolling.

Good, because that is how I feel about the whole above conversation.

Eliteseraph.4970

Even on the most sparsely populated servers there are people playing during the off hours. It’s far more likely that 100% map domination is caused by players not even willing to try fighting back. Or worse, people doing the opposite and abusing the free transfers to jump ship to a side that’s already dominating.

It is pretty easy to see when there is no queue during the late hours and nobody is defending anything.

Eliteseraph.4970

Again, over time the server match making and lack of free transfers will smooth out the issue.

This is not some small 32 vs. 32 game we’re talking about here, nor one that resets every 10 minutes. Server populations change over time, and the distribution of players across the hours of the day will change even more according to local events (i.e. holidays). Server match making might no be enough. Anet itself realized this long ago and they have tried to solve this problem with the undermanned buff. Currently this is not enough. That is pretty much all I have to say.

Xandax.1753

If “you” want structure and enforced teams; sPvP in this game or perhaps something like CounterStrike would be the way to go.

If “you” want to play PvE in WvW, “you” can go right on ahead. Have fun!

Eliteseraph.4970

Now you’re just trolling.

Good, because that is how I feel about the whole above conversation.

Eliteseraph.4970

Even on the most sparsely populated servers there are people playing during the off hours. It’s far more likely that 100% map domination is caused by players not even willing to try fighting back. Or worse, people doing the opposite and abusing the free transfers to jump ship to a side that’s already dominating.

It is pretty easy to see when there is no queue during the late hours and nobody is defending anything.

Eliteseraph.4970

Again, over time the server match making and lack of free transfers will smooth out the issue.

This is not some small 32 vs. 32 game we’re talking about here, nor one that resets every 10 minutes. Server populations change over time, and the distribution of players across the hours of the day will change even more according to local events (i.e. holidays). Server match making might no be enough. Anet itself realized this long ago and they have tried to solve this problem with the undermanned buff. Currently this is not enough. That is pretty much all I have to say.

Xandax.1753

If “you” want structure and enforced teams; sPvP in this game or perhaps something like CounterStrike would be the way to go.

If “you” want to play PvE in what should be WvW, “you” can go right on ahead. Have fun fighting mobs! ^_______________^

If WvW is supposed to be about skill and tactics, then Anet will change stuff. If WvW is supposed to be about how many Aussies you beg to join your server, then Anet will keep things the same.

People forgot or did’nt give a kitten about WvWvW mecanism announced by A.net before the game’s release.

Every whiners complains about how unfair it is to be nightcapped everyday but A.net wants a WvWvW on 24/7. Is it hard to understand that the current ranking system is up to make things balanced between same kind of servers? Is it hard to understand that servers with 24/7 will fight all against each others at the end? Same thing for daytime presence servers?

The game has been released for less than a month for God’s sake! Is it so unbelievable for you to wait a few and try to enjoy the WvWvW for fun and training your tactics with mates/alliances and have blasts in epic fights during your playtime?
No, you want immediately a kitten balanced kickass WvWvW right now, don’t you?

When Eliteseraph talks about people who wants everything at once, it’s completelly true. You have a perfect example of a game like this with WoW. Now, check the current major population type on it.

Yes, maybe your server rocks the angry pony in primetime but if it can’t handle a 24/7 fight it’s not good enough to be a top WvWvW server. You can’t win a marathon as a sprinter. That’s something intended by A.net and you can’t blame people for having thinking and being organized that way.

If you hardly want show your incredible skill to the face of the world, there is sPvP for you. You can’t have more balanced and fairness game.

Kingface, the important thing is that people only play for a month or two. So yes it’s important to the game, before they actually sit in, or f off somewhere else.

From my personal experience I enjoy having a level 80 in full exotic, and destroying people. What I’m going to do next is just server xfer to kill more people with an organised crowd. Server stacking is happening, will happen, will make this pointless.

If Anet wants “has 500 people awake 24/7” to be the single most important factor in WvW, then they should say it so that the rest of us can quit now.

Kamos.2897:

Good, because that is how I feel about the whole above conversation.

I’m sorry that you considering disagreeing views on the same subject as trolling. However, I will not be responding to you any further, since you’ve made your stance abundantly clear.

Kingface.9781:

Yes, maybe your server rocks the angry pony in primetime but if it can’t handle a 24/7 fight it’s not good enough to be a top WvWvW server. You can’t win a marathon as a sprinter.

Exactly!

The only real question is whether or not you and your server are going to put up a fight or not. And expand your perception of what your entire server fighting 24 hours really means. Maximize your strengths instead of complaining about your weaknesses.

If your server loses everything at night, then you better step up during the rest of the time. Some servers have massive skill. Others have population, or coordination. Some have people willing to farm 10 golems, others don’t.

What does your server have that makes it strong?

Hix.8925:

If Anet wants “has 500 people awake 24/7” to be the single most important factor in WvW, then they should say it so that the rest of us can quit now.

Its been well documented that WvW was going to be 24×7 for some time now. Did you somehow think that 24×7 really translated to “only in your prime time”? I can assure you that many alliances well and truly understood what it meant and they recruited accordingly, even before the game was released. Funnily enough those same alliances are all top tier or close to it.

There are plenty of ways to design a game to support 24/7 WvW, where having 500 people awake at all times is not the most important factor in the game.

Hix.8925:

If Anet wants “has 500 people awake 24/7” to be the single most important factor in WvW, then they should say it so that the rest of us can quit now.

It was the case long before the release. That’s the way A.net have chosen to design it.

For your next game, try to get documented much better before buying it.

i agree with OP. WvW is not something which is going to be or meant to be perfectly balanced

However i do feel anet needs to give players the ability to win in situations where they are outnumbered given that they play skillfully. at the moment the larger force pretty much always wins because they can just keep reviving each other.

1. remove AOE damage cap
2. If you die while downed, you should be auto teleported back to spawn (no chance for rez)
3. speed up downed state finisher kill animation
4. maybe nerf downed state if the above 3 still dont remedy the issue

i think the nerf to retaliation vs siege weps was an excellent move

Hix.8925:

There are plenty of ways to design a game to support 24/7 WvW, where having 500 people awake at all times is not the most important factor in the game.

Having “500 people awake at all times” is only a factor when one server does and another doesn’t. And those matchups should be reduced by the server ranking system.

The snowball effect will disappear when the current ranking system will be done with 1-week matchup cycle, when servers being able to keep 24/7 fight will match each others.

Kingface.9781:

The snowball effect will disappear when the current ranking system will be done with 1-week matchup cycle, when servers being able to keep 24/7 fight will match each others.

No it will not. I play on Far Shiverpeak, the second best EU-server. Who do the second best get matched against? The first and third. We never come third nor do we come first. The third is ever changing the first and second are not.

Get a clue before commenting.

Also the snowball effect, is due to mechanics, not matching.

That’s the big issue with people. You think FS is the server #2. Currently it is but that is due to the 24h matchup cycle we had before this week.

But you will surprised to see other 24/7 servers reaching the top WvWvW. Obviously, FS won’t be #2 anymore if it can handle 24/7 presence and the fall will be hard for a lot of people I guess.

Like I said, yes, maybe your server rocks the angry pony in primetime but if it can’t handle a 24/7 fight it’s not good enough to be a top WvWvW server. You can’t win a marathon as a sprinter.

Get a clue before commenting, huh?

Oh kingface, your ignorance is only trumped by your arrogance.

We obviously have a 24/7 presence but not like Viznuah Square, and that is the problem, the game should NOT be won because of a couple hours during the night, 24/7 is supposed to be 24/7 not just 8 hours of night right?

If all matches get won between 2am and 9am thats not 24/7 is it?

Please think before you post.

It’s the ultimate noob mentality honestly.

When a noob loses, they blame the game. I mean, it must be the game that’s at fault right? they could never lose because they are so uber mega awesome. So the game must be broken.

When good players lose, they say, why did we lose? and what could we have done better? Then they look for solutions. That’s what the top servers did. They saw a problem, and they solved it. They didn’t blame the game and demand things be changed.

So all you nightcap complainers out there can either stick with the noob mentality and blame the game for your own losses, or accept the fact that you are being beat by servers that are better than yours and work on getting better. Your choice.

Keldrath.4735:

It’s the ultimate noob mentality honestly.

When a noob loses, they blame the game. I mean, it must be the game that’s at fault right? they could never lose because they are so uber mega awesome. So the game must be broken.

When good players lose, they say, why did we lose? and what could we have done better? Then they look for solutions. That’s what the top servers did. They saw a problem, and they solved it. They didn’t blame the game and demand things be changed.

So all you nightcap complainers out there can either stick with the noob mentality and blame the game for your own losses, or accept the fact that you are being beat by servers that are better than yours and work on getting better. Your choice.

Says the Hedge of Denravi bandwagoner, cheers.

Let me try it your way :

Why did we lose? We dont have the same amount of players in wvwvw during the night.

How can we fix it? Find people from other timezones to play. (or have arenanet find a solution, like limiting population according to demand to get in for example, but we dont want any of that, its noob mentality)

So the solution for everyone is, go out find yourself a guild from a different timezone and FORCE them to move to your server! If they dont want to, employ them or kill there familes to get them to come over and help you win in a game!

Right Hedge Bandwagoner?

nilco.8457:

Oh kingface, your ignorance is only trumped by your arrogance.

We obviously have a 24/7 presence but not like Viznuah Square, and that is the problem, the game should NOT be won because of a couple hours during the night, 24/7 is supposed to be 24/7 not just 8 hours of night right?

If all matches get won between 2am and 9am thats not 24/7 is it?

Please think before you post.

You should be less blinded by your would-be rocking skill of #2 because when you will be beaten by another 24/7 server than VS, you will surely come here and whine for unfairness once and again as usual. Because, yes it will happen and sooner you can think.

Anyway, I let you trust whatever you want. I don’t have much business with troller like you.

I repeat the fall will be very hard for a lot of wannabe-awesome people.

Guys, try to keep it civil.

Kingface.9781:

nilco.8457:

Oh kingface, your ignorance is only trumped by your arrogance.

We obviously have a 24/7 presence but not like Viznuah Square, and that is the problem, the game should NOT be won because of a couple hours during the night, 24/7 is supposed to be 24/7 not just 8 hours of night right?

If all matches get won between 2am and 9am thats not 24/7 is it?

Please think before you post.

You should be less blinded by your would-be rocking skill of #2 because when you will be beaten by another 24/7 server than VS, you will surely come here and whine for unfairness once and again as usual. Because, yes it will happen and sooner you can think.

Anyway, I let you trust whatever you want. I don’t have much business with troller like you.

Troller? get real.

And bring on servers that will beat us out of our second posistion, you still have riverside and desolation to knock out of the rotation, bring it on.