Guild Wars 2

aelflune.8590:

Terrahero.9358:

Its a map designed to grief. Traps, choke points, dark room.

Why do people fail to understand this? You go into this map and start wondering why people are playing it the way it was intented.

Oh boy. This kind of argument can be applied to so many other things. Zerging? Eyefinity? Working as intended. Arrow cart spam? By design. Perma-stealth thieves? Also by design. Yet there are 10,000 threads complaining about those, many by elite hardcore PvPers on WvW.

Looks like complaints can’t just be dismissed by appealing to the devs’ intentions (we know the devs are so bad at doing some things).

This map was made with build in traps that are remotely operated by players as to kill players from another faction. Ganking was clearly intented.

You might like to see it changed to something else, but there are also people who do not. The places where PvP actively happens are very limited in GW2, and OS is one of the few PvP zones. And PvPers actively play there.

They’re griefing? Report them. I’m pretty sure griefing is a bannable offense.

They’re beating your carebear rear? That’s called PvP! Bring your friends, guild or ask for support in the WvW map channel(s). You don’t even have to defeat them, maybe you can just sneak past them.

Monsoon.2589:

You do not see a problem with Anet requiring you to complete a pvp JP to get a PVE meta achievement?

You do not see a problem with you labeling a meta achievement as PvE while ANet never called it so themselves?

Monsoon.2589:

You do not see a problem with Anet requiring you to complete a pvp JP to get a PVE meta achievement?

Its not a PvE meta achievement. Its simply an achievement requiring activity in both spheres. Your re-branding effort is a failure.

Just came into the JP for the kite. Saw 5-6 GDC camping there.

Let me just say that everything said about them being sub-par PvP players is true.

Lol’d so hard.

JP is designed for griefing. If someone was told to design the perfect map for greifers, the JP would be it. If you go in there without backup you need your head read.

Terrahero.9358:

This map was made with build in traps that are remotely operated by players as to kill players from another faction. Ganking was clearly intented.

You might like to see it changed to something else, but there are also people who do not. The places where PvP actively happens are very limited in GW2, and OS is one of the few PvP zones. And PvPers actively play there.

So? AC buffs were clearly intended. Permastealthing thieves are clearly intended. You might like to see those changed to something else, but there also people who do not.

Either you guys accept that things like AC buffs and permastealth are intended and stop complaining about them, or you can’t really fault other people for complaining about something the devs put in that they find not enjoyable.

After this thread, I’m going to start camping that puzzle.

fuzzypanda.9365:

I know it’s a unspoken rule to not grief the WvW jump puzzles. For as long as I’ve been playing I’ve ran through them with rival shards and even helped them get around and vice versa has been done for me. But what do we do when a server has guilds that do nothing but grief the WvW JPs? I play on Devonas rest and this run through Sorrows Furnace has done nothing but grief the Oblivion Sanctum and several guilds are the culprits. Now I’ve heard nothing but bad things about this server that make me think it’s filled with nothing but trolls. What should we do then when dealing with those that break this unspoken rule? I say we retaliate till the greifer guilds disband. Why shouldn’t we fight back?

Monsoon.2589:

Terrahero.9358:

This map was made with build in traps that are remotely operated by players as to kill players from another faction. Ganking was clearly intented.

You might like to see it changed to something else, but there are also people who do not. The places where PvP actively happens are very limited in GW2, and OS is one of the few PvP zones. And PvPers actively play there.

That is fine…but at the moment Anet requires you to complete this JP to get a meta achievement in PVE. THAT is the problem. Aetherblade achievement requires you to finish that pvp JP in case you are unable to do the dungeon…and who wants to do the dungeon with a new player when only people who want the hard achievements do it.

That is the problem, the mix of PVE and PVP for people who do not give a toss about PVP and never do spvp or wvw. These players are forced into a PVP JP.

So is it because Anet wants to force casual solo players into doing pvp or is it bad design?

Nobody is complaining about pvp…its forcing people into it that is not cool

Who says its a PvE meta achievement?

Hey, get your PvE Jumping puzzles out my WvW meta achievement! :P That would be great, then id only have to do 1.
But seriously. Its called an achievement for a reason, and some are harder or more annoying then others.

But if thats the problem then go to the PvE forums and ask the achievement to be changed. Then we make OS its own achievement worth its own points. But almost all these threads that pop up complaining about PvP in OS dont want that, instead people kitten and moan that PvP should be taken out of the OS.

Problem is though that this JP has nothing to do with WvW anymore. People go there for two reasons: to just do the JP for one or another achievement, or to grief. Completing it does nothing for WvW – you get some blueprints and some badges, yes, but you’re essentially outside of the WvW maps, the JP does not contribute to the actual stuff in WvW: it’s not a structure that can/needs to be hold ánd: there are achievements to be had there that are generally appealing to PvE players.

Imo this JP has potential in WvW, but the way it is now, it would be better off in a PvE area. Personally however I’d like it to get another destination. Why not rearrange the portals there so you can actually use the jumping puzzles to infiltrate enemy keeps? It would be so that good JPers can finish it and in the end choose a certain path – an extension of some sorts of the existing JP – to get to the portal of another server and inflitrate their EB keep, so they can open the first gate to that keep from the inside out. It would give sieging a lot more dynamic, make the JP a real asset to WvW and it just sounds really cool.

There are of course risks to this and it will require some redesigning of the JP and where the portals are so that people can get an actual interesting fight down there and so that if you control the portal you can’t just steam roll everyone inside the enemies’ keep through mesmer portals. Also, the portals should be outside of the inner gate of the keep so infiltrators can’t go straight for the keep lord.

I don’t know. Maybe it’s a really bad idea XD I’ll let the hardcore WvWers decide. But I thought it’d be really cool.

It does have to do with WvW. Its world vs world PvP, a PvP zone. Its rewards are aimed for WvW, giving badges and siege.

The people who ask for the OS to be restyled to a PvPless zone dont seem to understand this isnt the same as asking for an AC nerf. You are asking ANet to take away one of the already limited PvP zones from the PvP players and giving it to the PvE players.

How would you respond if WvW players constantly flooded the dungeon forum asking for a dungeon to be restyled as aPvP zone, denying you PvE play in that dungeon.

Terrahero.9358:

You are asking ANet to take away one of the already limited PvP zones GW2 has.

Exactly, I quite like having a PvP JP. Why do the carebears want to take this away from us? Why?

Seriously though, on Vizunah vs Deso vs Riverside it barely is a PvP zone right now. People just run past each other, it’s really hard to actually get someone to fight you.

You’re wrong. The “carebears” are mostly asking for these achievements to not be placed in your precious PvP JP.

God, I’m an active WvWer (missed out on a Sky Pirates achievement due to spending most of my play time in WvW) and regular solo roamer, and I would not step into Obsidian Sanctum if I can help it. I guess the l33t players have to go somewhere to troll.

The achievement was placed in the JP to make the later more desirable in the first place.

aelflune.8590:

You’re wrong. The “carebears” are mostly asking for these achievements to not be placed in your precious PvP JP.

Well that’s tough. But that’s also why they’re called achievements and not kitten-a-net-gives-me-for-being-a-special-little-boy.

Sixtyfivekid.5726:

Well that’s tough. But that’s also why they’re called achievements and not kitten-a-net-gives-me-for-being-a-special-little-boy.

Yeah, and I got it for Sky Pirates owing to my leet skillz, so you can save your teenage posturing for someone else.

fuzzypanda.9365:

I know it’s a unspoken rule to not grief the WvW jump puzzles. For as long as I’ve been playing I’ve ran through them with rival shards and even helped them get around and vice versa has been done for me. But what do we do when a server has guilds that do nothing but grief the WvW JPs? I play on Devonas rest and this run through Sorrows Furnace has done nothing but grief the Oblivion Sanctum and several guilds are the culprits. Now I’ve heard nothing but bad things about this server that make me think it’s filled with nothing but trolls. What should we do then when dealing with those that break this unspoken rule? I say we retaliate till the greifer guilds disband. Why shouldn’t we fight back?

I don’t agree that it was an unspoken rule at all. As a rule I always attacked opposing servers players to deny them siege that they could end up using against us. But now things are a bit different. Siege is easier to get with levelling. So now I stay out of the JP.

There isn’t an unspoken rule like that..

This JP is in this zone for a reason you know. All the fighting in between makes it an actual challenge (as the JP is really, really easy) and fun.
Fighting your way to the top is way more rewarding than allowing enemy players to just walk next to you and give each other a high five at the top.

Whenever I see a JQ/BG or whatever server they are from, they get a nice Guardian Hammer 4 Skill to their face and I go on with my business. I expect the same from them

aelflune.8590:

Yeah, and I got it for Sky Pirates owing to my leet skillz, so you can save your teenage posturing for someone else.

If it’s teenage posturing vs entitlement, I always choose posturing, thank you very much.

Terrahero.9358:

It does have to do with WvW. Its world vs world PvP, a PvP zone. Its rewards are aimed for WvW, giving badges and siege.

The people who ask for the OS to be restyled to a PvPless zone dont seem to understand this isnt the same as asking for an AC nerf. You are asking ANet to take away one of the already limited PvP zones from the PvP players and giving it to the PvE players.

How would you respond if WvW players constantly flooded the dungeon forum asking for a dungeon to be restyled as aPvP zone, denying you PvE play in that dungeon.

Yes, you can PvP in there and get WvW achievements, but that’s it. It’s completely separated in everything else, even mapwise, and it’s hardly related to what WvW’s mainly about: taking over camps, towers, keeps and castles from other servers and hold them to get points. I’m suggesting to restyle OS to give it an actual function in sieging and the likes rather than just being a PvP JP which only very few people actually like: hardcore WvWers don’t go there cause there’s hardly anything to be had, and people who like JP’s would rather not go there for fear of trolls. People who like to PvP in a JP go there, which I find hard to understand as most people you’ll encounter are not after PvP. You may find that dumb for some reason, tell them to get out of a PvP area or man up, but truth is imo that OS is somewhere halfway WvW and PvE and more often a source of frustration than a source of joy. I hope that OS can be reintegrated more thoroughly in WvW again to make it a real asset for that gametype and that achievements which generally are sought after by PvEers can get an equally challenging, PvE alternative to OS.

Petrus Petraeus.7368:

Terrahero.9358:

It does have to do with WvW. Its world vs world PvP, a PvP zone. Its rewards are aimed for WvW, giving badges and siege.

The people who ask for the OS to be restyled to a PvPless zone dont seem to understand this isnt the same as asking for an AC nerf. You are asking ANet to take away one of the already limited PvP zones from the PvP players and giving it to the PvE players.

How would you respond if WvW players constantly flooded the dungeon forum asking for a dungeon to be restyled as aPvP zone, denying you PvE play in that dungeon.

Yes, you can PvP in there and get WvW achievements, but that’s it. It’s completely separated in everything else, even mapwise, and it’s hardly related to what WvW’s mainly about: taking over camps, towers, keeps and castles from other servers and hold them to get points.

What do you use to get those towers, keeps and castles? What do you get for completing the jumping puzzle?

denying the opponent siege is such a silly argument, siege is so easy to get and even more so now that you can buy it from the tradepost

you would probably spend more in repairs and waypointing from dying over and over than the cost of the siege you get…

and the badges? you could get that amount easier by playing proper wvw for 10 minutes.

Esplen.3940:

So glad I can do the dark room with no torch. It lets me grief the griefers and defend myself properly.

Run thief with great output damage and wait for some one to fall down

lets play a game called dark room >:]

nirvana.8245:

What do you use to get those towers, keeps and castles? What do you get for completing the jumping puzzle?

If the 3 blueprints the JP provides each run (per day) then that’s quite a small contribution to WvW: I don’t know anyone who runs OS for that reason. Especially now they’re tradeable.

Btw I’d like to have a response to my plans as a whole rather than attempts to show that parts of my story are incomplete or wrong: why do you think OS should stay as it is or why do you think it should change. Replies like this don’t help me along in understanding your point of view.

3 blueprints aren’t much. Now funnel the whole EB zerg through mesmer portals and you are looking at a quick way to get a lot of siege for your server.

stof.9341:

3 blueprints aren’t much. Now funnel the whole EB zerg through mesmer portals and you are looking at a quick way to get a lot of siege for your server.

Never thought about that xD

Well then that’s something I guess. Although going to OS means leaving EB. But still that’s only part of the issue at hand. I still like my plan though, no one has given me any arguments that really change my mind.

If you plan that well, the mesmers are already in place and it can be done in a minute or two. If you do that the Friday before the reset, the score might already be fixed anyway and you won’t care much for what you lose or that you might not get back to the EB map.

If it would keep people out of jump puzzles in WvW permanently, I would grief them nonstop. They never ever should have been put into WvW zones.

I laugh at these threads. Your in a PvP zone. Don’t bring PvE to PvP -.-

SoPP.7034:

Don’t bring PvE to PvP -.-

Ironic, since that’s EXACTLY what Anet did

IF ITS RED ITS DEAD !

secondly its a pvp jump puzzle. designed for ppl who like puzzles and pvp.

i love it

I kill people in the JP for threads like this. Thank you, OP.

DevonCarver.5370:

It is absolutely intended that you can fight people in the JP. The fact that so many people are piling into the map to get the achievement is good for any and all of you who are capable of laying the smack down on them, and, if they manage to fight back is hopefully going to encourage some of them to stick around and play WvW. If you don’t want to get killed by other players, don’t play WvW. Plain and simple. The achievement isn’t required for getting the meta-achievement on purpose.

I agree. The achievement isn’t required by any means and it can be quite a lot of fun having to fight through all those people.

Yesterday myself and four friends formed up a party to get that achievement. We ended up getting steamrolled by a whole guild of Darkhaven. So we brought our guild (and several others) and fought our way collectively to fight through the JP. It took awhile, and several mesmer portals, but we got it.

It was the most satisfying achievement I’ve got to date.

If you don’t want to get killed by other players, don’t play WvW.

This. It’s what we are telling those QQ’ers day and night for months and finally we have it official.

While I agree with the sentiment that this is WvW and if you don’t want to fight don’t come here, getting their rears handed to them by ‘griefers’ is in no way shape or form going to encourage anyone to stick around and play WvW. Just the opposite I think.

Mad Rasputin.7809:

While I agree with the sentiment that this is WvW and if you don’t want to fight don’t come here, getting their rears handed to them by ‘griefers’ is in no way shape or form going to encourage anyone to stick around and play WvW. Just the opposite I think.

What it should do is encourage players to form parties or go into EB and rally the troops to wipe the “griefers”.

Mad Rasputin.7809:

While I agree with the sentiment that this is WvW and if you don’t want to fight don’t come here, getting their rears handed to them by ‘griefers’ is in no way shape or form going to encourage anyone to stick around and play WvW. Just the opposite I think.

Well for one, they’re not griefers.

And second, if you play WvW, expect to die a lot. If everything was so easy and you never died, what’s the fun in that?

You get killed in EBJ? Bring your friends. At least this time you have a shared interest in doing it.

Vol.5241:

Mad Rasputin.7809:

While I agree with the sentiment that this is WvW and if you don’t want to fight don’t come here, getting their rears handed to them by ‘griefers’ is in no way shape or form going to encourage anyone to stick around and play WvW. Just the opposite I think.

Well for one, they’re not griefers.

Spawn camping is griefing. The spawn area doesn’t even give you invulnerability. There was even a thread with a pic showing another server’s players on their spawn platform!

Mad Rasputin.7809:

While I agree with the sentiment that this is WvW and if you don’t want to fight don’t come here, getting their rears handed to them by ‘griefers’ is in no way shape or form going to encourage anyone to stick around and play WvW. Just the opposite I think.

Aren’t they the ones going against a 1v10 constantly hoping that they’ll suddenly be nice and let them through to get free badges and free siege?

Would it be griefing if I ran into an enemy zerg in my civi clothes and they kept killing me? No, and to suggest such a thing would be absurd. The puzzle is in WvW. If a player keeps getting killed wanting FREE badges and FREE siege for jumping, in a PVP zone, then well, that’s their doing. They’re doing really “doing” WvW if all they want to do is jump without anyone attacking them for WvW rewards. If they want to try WvW, they can go do WvW.

These kinds of threads are just more evidence I think that they should just get rid of all the jumping puzzles, or remove badges of honor from the loot tables. Make people WvW to get WvW benefits. You don’t get PvE dungeon badges by doing PvE JP’s in the same zones as where the dungeons are (like doing a JP in an Ascalon area giving you AC toeksn), why? Well, because you need to do the dungeon! Only in WvW can you get WvW rewards, without actually having to do any WvW, and then people complain when people do WvW in that region.

ITT: People who have no idea what griefing is, versus PvP mechanics.

DevonCarver.5370:

Mad Rasputin.7809:

While I agree with the sentiment that this is WvW and if you don’t want to fight don’t come here, getting their rears handed to them by ‘griefers’ is in no way shape or form going to encourage anyone to stick around and play WvW. Just the opposite I think.

There is definitely some amount of truth to that, but I’d hesitate to say that much of what is going on in the JP is griefing, it is more that people unused to WvW are coming into a much deadlier map than they are accustomed to. That is the risk you take.

The devs could fix this whole issue I think in one move. Remove BoH from the JP. These kinds of threads about the JP would stop pretty fast imo. And really, there’s no logical reason why the JP should give BoH. If there are people in it, and you kill them, then you can get the BoH that way (by actually doing PvP).

I absolutely love you Devon!!!

Handin.4032:

DevonCarver.5370:

Mad Rasputin.7809:

While I agree with the sentiment that this is WvW and if you don’t want to fight don’t come here, getting their rears handed to them by ‘griefers’ is in no way shape or form going to encourage anyone to stick around and play WvW. Just the opposite I think.

There is definitely some amount of truth to that, but I’d hesitate to say that much of what is going on in the JP is griefing, it is more that people unused to WvW are coming into a much deadlier map than they are accustomed to. That is the risk you take.

The devs could fix this whole issue I think in one move. Remove BoH from the JP. These kinds of threads about the JP would stop pretty fast imo. And really, there’s no logical reason why the JP should give BoH. If there are people in it, and you kill them, then you can get the BoH that way (by actually doing PvP).

There isn’t an issue to fix. They clearly want people entering the JP, since they’ve had two achievements recently that require getting most of the way through. BoH are one way to get people to enter.

I hate if my team/ server griefes me by using a speed buff that also buffy allies(including me) making me overjump cause I usually do most stuff without swiftness.

I just want to say that I really enjoyed smacking down droves of enemies with log, spike, and flame traps yesterday to protect my friends while they finished the jump puzzle. And special thanks to the players sitting below the log traps, killing the people I knocked down.

Wouldn’t it encourage people to try WvW a whole lot more if there was a sub-meta achievement that focused entirely on WvW?

Maybe put kites at various supply depots in each of the borderlands and EB, and/or other such ideas that
a) give people a more “mainline” experience of WvW.
b) isn’t as prone to straight up griefing like we see in OS.
c) is something those already in WvW would enjoy.
d) is clearly seperate from the PvE.
e) could be more than the current 5 or 20 Achievement Points, and thus actually MORE incentive for people to try it out.
f) and then, perhaps, as part of a larger set of WvW achievement plan, include OS.

The part that rubs most people wrong, IMO, is that you have a meta achievement like “Learning to Kite” which is 6/7 PvE, and 1/7 WvW. Not that there’s WvW rewards in the Living Story. By lumping OS in with the likes of Spekk’s Lab and Pig Iron Quarry, you send a strong message that OS is “just another jumping puzzle”. And then people get pwned hard for walking in the door.

I’ve played WvW on and off, and I have to say that OS, especially these last couple weeks, makes me significantly less likely to play more. On the other hand, rewards tied to more “mainline” WvW activities (supply runs, taking towers, etc), would be much more compelling.