Guild Wars 2

A while ago now, a ANet representative interrupted a GvG and told them incorrectly that they were violating the game mode.
As an apology, the ANet team was able to open up a full-sized GvG arena as an add-on to the Obsidian Sanctum.

Given the relatively short time that content needed, along with the rapid pace of new maps and massive map changes shown in the LS1 for PvE; how hard would new maps be?

Obviously the playtesting for massive glitches would take a while, but they still haven’t cleared the original 4; so I don’t think that would be too massive of an effort.

I think the conceptual art and planning would be the most intensive in terms of labor and time.

Anyone with expertise or insight into the process care to weigh in?

Map creation is a developer-intensive process. My guess? Months.

However, getting new borderlands maps or even a new EBG map, and having those on rotation every week would definitely help the stagnation that is felt by most wvw players.

Quick Mouse.7635:

Map creation is a developer-intensive process. My guess? Months.

However, getting new borderlands maps or even a new EBG map, and having those on rotation every week would definitely help the stagnation that is felt by most wvw players.

I’m actually writing up a proposal for this. Will have it up sometime this week. New maps, while an excellent idea, I dont think will cut it alone. more details later.

but I can see developing maps being an extremely time consuming task… not only do you need to design the map and the textures and surfaces, you also need to take time to test it to make sure that blinks can’t go through walls or up onto ledges etc..

They seems to turn LA upside down every few weeks. Can’t be that hard.

I wouldn’t mind having even 1 more map. That map is a BL map. It can rotate in and out week to week with the original. That way there is a bit of spice to the sequence and can act as a framework for the rotating in newer maps.

But yeah, I imagine it takes time that we don’t really have. Testing out siege placement and the like. But they have the framework for towers and keeps already, so its really just a matter of adapting maps they have. They could take PvE maps and adapt them to a WvW map. Keep the flavor, such as fiery, desert, or a jungle.

Personally I would adore it if the three borderlands were each different. There wouldn’t be a random rotation of them, for each location; it’s just a simple “green borderlands is different from blue borderlands is different from red borderlands”.

Resource intensive to design, code and balance/test the map. I don’t think the OS arena is a good indication of what the WvW maps take to build. Living Story maps were done ahead of time – the pace at which we received some map changes doesn’t necessarily reflect the work that was done on them.

I think we really need another map (can be an EB replacement, or once that replaces the 3 color BLs, or one that replaces it all for lower populated tiers) but I don’t imagine there’s a good ROI on a new WvW map. Also there is probably like 1 person on the WvW software team at the moment >_>

It’s not even close to as easy as converting LA into pile of fiery bits of wood.

First of all, they would need to start from a scratch or at least if they used some other map as a template they would need to evaluate which one is most suited for teamplay environment.

You would need to consider lot of things, like balanced map so that no side would be in tougher spot than other (at least not by a huge margin). Measure the towers and keeps so far away from each other that you can’t do some silly trebbing like you used to be able to from Garrison to Bay. Stuff like that.

Then there is of course the glitch, bug, abuse checking. These are way faster to do in a LS map that is there for couple months as it doesn’t really matter that much if there is some glitch that lets you shadowstep under the map or through some object. It’s a minor annoyance in LS maps, but can be major problem in WvW. Nobody want’s to see people glitching inside towers and keeps again.

All this said. I would LOVE to see a new WvW map that could bring something new into this game mod. I loved WvW back in the days when people didn’t know every possible spot for siege and you could try out new stuff, sneaky stuff and so on. It was awesome to discover new spots for Trebs and catapults to be effective against enemy fortifications, and it was fun to make Keeps ready for anything.

And what comes to OS arena. They only had to make a ring that didn’t need any kind of balance. Just so it would look cool and would be clear from useless stuff for people to have GvG’s in. The upper platforms were a nice touch and the arena looks kinda cool visually. So yea, OS Arena is not a good measure for map developing for WvW

They already told us it takes 6 months to create and balance a WvW map.

We should therefore technically have up to another 4 maps available to us now……

Note these should be WvW Borderland maps, not EOTM. And even if you include that, that is still only 1 map.

Chris.3290:

A while ago now, a ANet representative interrupted a GvG and told them incorrectly that they were violating the game mode.

Also when was this? How can they be telling people how to play when they allow one player to ruin the run for all player when that single player builds a tonne of useless siege on a map, and then use the excuse that they cannot stop different play-styles different players use?!

Sarrs.4831:

Personally I would adore it if the three borderlands were each different. There wouldn’t be a random rotation of them, for each location; it’s just a simple “green borderlands is different from blue borderlands is different from red borderlands”.

I have seen a few people suggest this. The problem is that the BL maps cant all be different because it would potentially make for an unbalanced fight. Making a truely balanced map that is interesting and varied in its terrain is very difficult. Every map has different aspects to its configuration that could make it favor one side or another. Having the 3 BL maps be the same map is the only way to keep it statistically balanced. They did a pretty good job with EB, but if you really look at it, each 3rd is pretty much the same configuration with some slightly different terrain/landscaping.

It would be cool to have a 3-4 different BL maps that rotate each week (keeping the same map for all 3) just to add some variety though.

Months. But Anet’s had almost 2 years to develop them. All we’ve gotten are a failed ruins area and a failed EoTM.

More maps, and maps that rotate weekly would be HUGH. +100000000000000 interwebz. Variety is the spice of life after all.

Hamster.4861:

Quick Mouse.7635:

Map creation is a developer-intensive process. My guess? Months.

However, getting new borderlands maps or even a new EBG map, and having those on rotation every week would definitely help the stagnation that is felt by most wvw players.

I’m actually writing up a proposal for this. Will have it up sometime this week.

Let me save you some time. Anet provides on a yearly basis updates to maps or creation of a new wvw map. However if you wish to get Anets attention, write your proposal and suggested improvements in a short paragraph.

Fuzzion.2504:

Hamster.4861:

Quick Mouse.7635:

Map creation is a developer-intensive process. My guess? Months.

However, getting new borderlands maps or even a new EBG map, and having those on rotation every week would definitely help the stagnation that is felt by most wvw players.

I’m actually writing up a proposal for this. Will have it up sometime this week.

Let me save you some time. Anet provides on a yearly basis updates to maps or creation of a new wvw map. However if you wish to get Anets attention, write your proposal and suggested improvements in a short paragraph.

A SHORT paragraph? is that possible?

Thanks for the response Devon, been a while, dw though, I lose my keyboard all the time, generally when people decide they want me to command

But seriously good to see you again, and thanks for clearing that up for everyone, can’t find much fault myself in it, but I’m sure there are bigger, hardier and tougher critics than me out there; in fact, I’m almost positive of it.

Now if I could get my season reward chest soon that’d be great, though I remember it being said I shouldn’t submit a ticket, I heard that some who did received theirs later, so I’m wondering whether or not to actually do so. No wait random off-topic thoughts, that always happens when I try to write something here.

Hi Devon, how have you been?

Devon Carter…. Devon Carver… man, that’s not confusing or anything. /sarcasm

This isn’t the Devon Carter I’m looking for.

DevonCarver.5370:

Chaba.5410:

Devon Carter…. Devon Carver… man, that’s not confusing or anything. /sarcasm

Only confusing if you thought my name was ever Devon Carter.

That’s…so… Raven?

DevonCarver.5370:

I’ll make a couple of points here to hopefully clarify this issue.

1) It takes a very large amount of time and effort to make a new map. It’s definitely more than a 6 month process from start to finish. Especially if we are talking about building a new borderlands taking all the thing we’ve learned since the game came out into account. With that in mind it’s a big task. It took us a little under a year to get EotM built and shipped from conception to release. So that is a more reasonable timeline for a new map.

2) The area we added to Obsidian Sanctum was in progress prior to the incident mentioned above and, while it didn’t take a particularly large amount of time, was still a process of over a month. We don’t release map changes without thorough testing. Keep in mind that was just a small change to an existing map, not a completely new map.

3) We currently, unfortunately, don’t have the ability to rotate maps in and out of the game in the manner discussed above. We have talked about this concept many times and it is something we’d like to be able to do long term, but it is not a small task given the technical structure of our game.

All of those things being true, we absolutely want to make new maps for WvW and when we have them ready to talk about and show off, believe me we will. It’s very important to us that when we do release a new WvW map it is a clear example of what we think the ideal WvW map would be. That means we will test the heck out of it and do everything we can to make sure it is even more awesome than the current maps. I realize this isn’t a timeline or an answer to where are more maps, but it’s as much as we can give you right now and it hopefully gives some insight to the size of the task. As I said, as soon as we have more to talk about or show, you will hear it.

Hello, does the 3) mean that you couldn’t for example copy a PvE map like Bloodtide coast, Fields of Ruin… and paste it as a WvW map, and simply scrap some npcs, place in some new ones. It really sounds like it’s something ‘rather’ easy and not very time-consuming. Is the above not an option at all?

Edit: and testing a map inserted in the way above wouldn’t be necessary because it would already be (or should be in the PvE we have right now) fixed bug-wise?

Sirendor.1394:

Hello, does the 3) mean that you couldn’t for example copy a PvE map like Bloodtide coast, Fields of Ruin… and paste it as a WvW map, and simply scrap some npcs, place in some new ones. It really sounds like it’s something ‘rather’ easy and not very time-consuming. Is the above not an option at all?

Edit: and testing a map inserted in the way above wouldn’t be necessary because it would already be (or should be in the PvE we have right now) fixed bug-wise?

There would still be balance issues. If teams/guilds/servers start at certain locations, they have to balance it so one spawn location isn’t better than another. Height advantage, hiding spots, underwater zones, running distances, etc. all have to be taken into account.

We do appreciate the reply and explanation, Devon, thank you. However 1 borderland map and 1 EB map, for people that play WvW 95% of their game time… well after 1+ years they start getting boring. When you hit 2 years… And EotM… I get what the idea behind it was, but it wasn’t what the core WvW-ers were looking for.

ammayhem.5962:

Sirendor.1394:

Hello, does the 3) mean that you couldn’t for example copy a PvE map like Bloodtide coast, Fields of Ruin… and paste it as a WvW map, and simply scrap some npcs, place in some new ones. It really sounds like it’s something ‘rather’ easy and not very time-consuming. Is the above not an option at all?

Edit: and testing a map inserted in the way above wouldn’t be necessary because it would already be (or should be in the PvE we have right now) fixed bug-wise?

There would still be balance issues. If teams/guilds/servers start at certain locations, they have to balance it so one spawn location isn’t better than another. Height advantage, hiding spots, underwater zones, running distances, etc. all have to be taken into account.

Yep. Sounds to me like he’s saying there aren’t going to be any new WvW maps. For at least a couple of years, if ever.

Because even if we did spend the next year creating new maps, we couldn’t put them in WvW unless they were going to permanently replace the current maps because we can’t rotate maps in and out of WvW.

I’ll leave this here: (kinda related)

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Proposal-PvP-Map-Rotation-for-Borderlands/first#post4115098

I’m happy you’re at least seriously considering the issue devon, cause we all want WvW to be more fun.
Also, thanks for the guestimate on production time.

Be careful what you guys wish for. We don’t need more EotM karma train maps.

style.6173:

Be careful what you guys wish for. We don’t need more EotM karma train maps.

Yep. This. I’ve been riding the karma train for several weeks now as I try to finally finish my Legendary. I got it today and it was sure nice to go back to owning a tower in EB, keeping it repaired, sieged up and supplied.

Still, it’s awfully nice to see a red post, giving some clear answers.

DevonCarver.5370:

That means we will test the heck out of it and do everything we can to make sure it is even more awesome than the current maps. I realize this isn’t a timeline or an answer to where are more maps, but it’s as much as we can give you right now and it hopefully gives some insight to the size of the task. As I said, as soon as we have more to talk about or show, you will hear it.

It has come to the point that as WvW has not received real updates since launch that we ourselves would not mind doing the testing.

The current maps arent even balanced even after the testing done on it, so I doubt we’d mind unbalanced and untested ones, as long as it means we get those maps faster! The current maps are so old and boring now, we wont mind it.

Let us do the testing, actually LISTEN to our feedback from our testing, and get WvW rolling like it should!, instead of doing what you did to my main account as listed in my signature

Not only will this keep current WvW players interested in the game, it will interest WvW player who has already left, so you’ll get more people back in the game. The more people the more testing done, the more maps you can release and the greater variety of rotations.

You know the WvW is already hostile towards you (not our fault), so throw us a bone already, even if it isnt a complete bone.

Or give us the tools to make maps ourselves, we can submit them, you can review them, and then we can test the ones we all like. You know crowd-sourcing is all the rage these days, and I am sure there are a few players who’d love to give such a thing a go, to actually contribute and save this game!

Anet:

I appreciate the candor of the difficulty in creating a new WvW map.

Can you tell us if you are already in the process of doing so?
Can you tell us how long you have been in that process?

While that would certainly not tell us when it would be done (nor might you even know at this point), it would give us a direction.

style.6173:

Be careful what you guys wish for. We don’t need more EotM karma train maps.

The main reason why EotM is a karma train is because it doesn’t count towards a server’s score. If EotM was one of the maps contributing to server score during the season when everyone was try-harding for their shiny weapon skins (which they are still butt-mad about), I can guarantee there would be plenty of defensive play on it.

Waffler.1257:

style.6173:

Be careful what you guys wish for. We don’t need more EotM karma train maps.

The main reason why EotM is a karma train is because it doesn’t count towards a server’s score. If EotM was one of the maps contributing to server score during the season when everyone was try-harding for their shiny weapon skins (which they are still butt-mad about), I can guarantee there would be plenty of defensive play on it.

True, but the other downside is that the three sides are not balanced very well and has limited opportunity for larger fights. It just isn’t a good WvW map.

At the very least, I would like to see the 3 borderlands maps be visually different. Keep them the same size and have all the camps/towers/keeps in the same locations, but each map would have a theme. Red BL could be fiery and Green BL could be more like a jungle. Keep Blue BL the same as it is now since there is a lot of water and the snow in the north is related to water….good enough lol.

Visual variety helps a lot.

The karma train in EoTM is as much to do with the rewards, and player mentality as the map design. When it first came out, there were some good fights and serious efforts to play to win. But then people realised that karma training was easier.

Arcadio.6875:

At the very least, I would like to see the 3 borderlands maps be visually different.

I’d much rather they modify the BL maps by changing the structures. What has made those maps (and EB as well) stale is that the methods of sieging and defending have stagnated. Making changes to the objectives would mean people have to figure out new ways to siege and defend.

Arcadio.6875:

At the very least, I would like to see the 3 borderlands maps be visually different. Keep them the same size and have all the camps/towers/keeps in the same locations, but each map would have a theme. Red BL could be fiery and Green BL could be more like a jungle. Keep Blue BL the same as it is now since there is a lot of water and the snow in the north is related to water….good enough lol.

Visual variety helps a lot.

Visual variety won’t do anything other than peak your interest until you’ve ran through it once.

DevonCarver.5370:

Pinkamena Diane Pie.8054:

It has come to the point that as WvW has not received real updates since launch that we ourselves would not mind doing the testing.

I can appreciate that many people don’t like EotM, but don’t conflate a lack of updates that you personally like with a lack of updates. WvW has added a great deal of content and rewards over just the last calendar year.

Hopefully you will find more you like in future updates and we’ll continue to add to the game.

If you could get the pve karma trainers out of EotM, that would be great.

Pinkamena Diane Pie.8054:

Or give us the tools to make maps ourselves, we can submit them, you can review them, and then we can test the ones we all like. You know crowd-sourcing is all the rage these days, and I am sure there are a few players who’d love to give such a thing a go, to actually contribute and save this game!

Reading this I remembered Neverwinter Online, which I played for a month or so a long time ago. That game had a tool that allowed players to build quests of their own to share with other players. If I’m not mistaken, people loved that. Maybe it’s not impossible to apply that concept to make maps.

DevonCarver.5370:

Pinkamena Diane Pie.8054:

It has come to the point that as WvW has not received real updates since launch that we ourselves would not mind doing the testing.

I can appreciate that many people don’t like EotM, but don’t conflate a lack of updates that you personally like with a lack of updates. WvW has added a great deal of content and rewards over just the last calendar year.

Hopefully you will find more you like in future updates and we’ll continue to add to the game.

From my perspective, EotM was more than any of us wanted. There’s far too much content in EotM. Too much time and effort was put into it.

It’s my perception that we don’t want that much stuff, we want less complex (non-floating) maps with very few if any of the crazy new mechanics you threw in as experiments.

I think we just want a slightly different landscape (perhaps a map rotation) – it’s as simple as that. And it shouldn’t matter if you kitten-it-up balance-wise because there would be 3 versions of it.

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

Still, it’s awfully nice to see a red post, giving some clear answers.

Indeed it is, thanks for the feedback Devon, it’s good to know you’re still alive.

I agree about the players doing the tests. Serious, slightly unbalanced new maps wouldn’t bother anyone. The game is already completely unbalanced duo to coverage and population disparity. Slightly unbalanced but NEW maps would be very welcomed.

While I understand an extra map would take quite some time to make fully playable and available to WvW, is it not possible to use one (or several) already existing PvE maps with a bit of polish to fit bases in?

I don’t think it would take much tinkering with the map. The layout can be left relatively the same as to have actual real elevation advantages and choke points. Plus they are a lot bigger too so it may just force players to spread out.

My 2 cents, but I can think of a couple maps that would make for fabulous WvW maps (like Frostgorge Sound and Mount Maelstrom). Granted I’m not a fan of too much water in a map, but I think these 2 in particular would make good ones.

Just my 2 cents.

DevonCarver.5370:

Pinkamena Diane Pie.8054:

It has come to the point that as WvW has not received real updates since launch that we ourselves would not mind doing the testing.

I can appreciate that many people don’t like EotM, but don’t conflate a lack of updates that you personally like with a lack of updates. WvW has added a great deal of content and rewards over just the last calendar year.

Hopefully you will find more you like in future updates and we’ll continue to add to the game.

Talking about EotM being a WvW update is just silly. Dont get me wrong, but EotM have NOTHING to do with WvW.

EotM have close to non existent impact in real matchups. Actually, EotM drain players from the game mode to a big and pointless free for all.

EotM have nothing to do with the weekly matchup. No server rivalry, no real score system to the real matchup… EotM means close to nothing to WvW scene.

How can you say that “World vs World vs World” has added a great deal of content when you drain players from the game mode to a map where the “worlds” (AkA servers) are not there?

Seriously.. when I see a comment like this it just makes clear how ANET deals with wvw scene.
And what to say about megaservers and how it hurts the recruitment scene in general?
And the lack of support to GvGs on the game called GUILD WARS? (dont try to fool anyone with Obsidiam Sanctum, we need a real game mode that allows guilds to fight across tiers)

seriously………

DevonCarver.5370:

Hopefully you will find more you like in future updates and we’ll continue to add to the game.

Always been hoping.

EotM is such a good map, I’d love to see the real WvW community playing it. Too bad it’s a k-train pug fest

DevonCarver.5370:

Pinkamena Diane Pie.8054:

It has come to the point that as WvW has not received real updates since launch that we ourselves would not mind doing the testing.

I can appreciate that many people don’t like EotM, but don’t conflate a lack of updates that you personally like with a lack of updates. WvW has added a great deal of content and rewards over just the last calendar year.

Hopefully you will find more you like in future updates and we’ll continue to add to the game.

Can you not just use Existing Pve maps as a template for a new WvW map? or even just using the Pve Maps themselves with little Changes for WvW except with 3 servers of people fighting in it, theres so many interesting places and geography I would just love to fight over, even without any objectives, that would do so much to stop the stagnation in WvW

SpehssMehreen.5897:

DevonCarver.5370:

Pinkamena Diane Pie.8054:

It has come to the point that as WvW has not received real updates since launch that we ourselves would not mind doing the testing.

I can appreciate that many people don’t like EotM, but don’t conflate a lack of updates that you personally like with a lack of updates. WvW has added a great deal of content and rewards over just the last calendar year.

Hopefully you will find more you like in future updates and we’ll continue to add to the game.

Can you not just use Existing Pve maps as a template for a new WvW map? or even just using the Pve Maps themselves with little Changes for WvW except with 3 servers of people fighting in it, theres so many interesting places and geography I would just love to fight over, even without any objectives, that would do so much to stop the stagnation in WvW

I suggested this in the past. Taking a PvE map as-is, remove most events, add keeps/towers/supply camps for 3 sides... Done. It doesn’t have to be 100% balanced, it doesn’t matter if supply dolyak X takes 10 seconds longer to dump supplies at the first tower compared to dolyak Y.

The game is getting older and the main thing preventing the game from becoming more stale is a change of scenery. Having to turn left instead of right.

A lot of the PvE maps would make for very interesting WvW maps because of the terrain. Most of them aren’t symmetrical which I consider a boon, after such a long time of playing on mirror reflected border maps, I’d like to see some more natural terrain, although I would not object to a WvW’d Divinity’s Breach... Think of all those little streets...

It makes perfect sense from a development logistical perspective to use the hard work that the artists put into PvE maps, to double as working on WvW content.

Imagine a GvG in a modified ascalon fractal, now that would be awesome. (Without the NPC’s and automatic siege.)

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Fractals_Urban.png

Or a Free-For-All in the Ebonhawke city!!

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Stronghold_of_Ebonhawke_map.jpg

So much potential going to waste. :-(

Recycled cards? Look RIFT, seriouly……..

Need a real “new” map. Need a “great” map, a “huge” map. With castle and real “great” openfield. (field, forest, swamp, mountain, and others…)
Good luck, BDO is coming.

style.6173:

Be careful what you guys wish for. We don’t need more EotM karma train maps.

karma trains exists because of the game mechanisms and not from the design of the map.

i will explain why .

karma trains exist because the defenders have nothing to win if they defend the objective. the rewards from defending are far less than the rewards from captures.

also , the claims in www and eotm have not any real meaning ( like fame ) and rewards ( like influence ) for guilds and most of the wvw and pve guilds , simple don’t care about objectives in wvw. this is a big mistake and makes the farming from massive zerg fights the only real option for all , and ofc they blob as hell.

also , there are many players ( most of them they are spending tons of gold for upgrades and sieges ) that are not satisfied at all with the logic of the home borders defense, because the north towers / garrison have the same defense as all objectives and anet made them easy for capturing .

be smart anet and redesign the map to satisfy ALL the types of players. if i was game designer , i will give waypoint in garrison all the times and i will change this upgrade with a night patrol upgrade … tons of 84 level NPC and a Real boss like lyssa ( that scales as hell against the blobs ) at night times ( and only ) of the server ….. if attackers fail to capture the gar and defeat lyssa, she will respawn in the middle of ruins area available for all available for one hour and respawn time 12 hours if nobody kills her to be killed in prime time of the server…. i think all can imagine what will happen when this boss appears and 3 servers meet each other in the middle of the map !!!

how long need this change ? less than month for sure and it will satisfy a lot of players , old and new , attackers and defenders . all love big chests loots .

ofc there are a lot of other changes that WvW community asked ( like better commander tag functionality , real gvg system , alliance system … ) but some small changes with great positive impact is that WvW needs now , even it is just big pve change . i prefer great pve and positive change than a bad pvp change right now in wvw.

WvW is your baby anet and it is the reason for a lot of people staying in game . carrying about it you will benefit in the future.

DevonCarver.5370:

….

All of those things being true, we absolutely want to make new maps for WvW and when we have them ready to talk about and show off, believe me we will. It’s very important to us that when we do release a new WvW map it is a clear example of what we think the ideal WvW map would be. That means we will test the heck out of it and do everything we can to make sure it is even more awesome than the current maps. I realize this isn’t a timeline or an answer to where are more maps, but it’s as much as we can give you right now and it hopefully gives some insight to the size of the task. As I said, as soon as we have more to talk about or show, you will hear it.

change the game mechanisms Mr Carver please and most of the players will return or stay to continue playing WvW … or at least give some infos of what you really want to do .

most of people that i am speaking every day thinking to stop or have already stopped because of the NO news and of no real changes in WvW …..

ofc , maps WvW needs major changes , but i don’t think should be your first priority now if it needs too much time.