Power creep in WvW is too high

Power creep in WvW is too high

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Posted by: Zoel.9154

Zoel.9154

Power creep in World Versus World has now reached the point that it poses a significant barrier to entry for casual players. With the implementation of orb buffs, the lack of them poses a serious liability that cannot feasibly be compensated for with player skill.

The stat increase from those two trait lines and orbs is far in excess of the bump that you would receive from upgrading from exotic to ascended; in fact, it’s about 5 times greater. Don’t believe me? It’s all in the numbers. (Reference intended.)

Guard Killer : 200 stat
defense against guards : 250 stat
Orb bonuses : 600 stat
+5% health increase: 22.5 stat + 0.05*base vital, lets call it ~55, *3 = 165ish

The total?

1,215 stats, give or take depending on vitality, almost a full 70 traits worth of stats, assuming no utility traits are taken.

For reference, my highest stat, toughness, with ascended gear except weapon, is 1,833.

You might criticize me and say hey, are you REALLY benefiting from each one of those stats? Ok, not really; as a clerics guardian I don’t really benefit from precision or condition damage very much, so forget about 250 of those stats. That’s still almost 1,000. Paradoxically, if I were a knights guardian, I’d be getting more of a benefit from the gigantic almalgamation of stats that is up for grabs through grinding and the wildcard of ruins of power.

This is simply imbalanced, and I would be very interested to hear a rationale for why it could be considered balanced. I’ve thought of everything I can think of, and I have nothing. Compare this to the upgrade from exotic to ascended, and it comes out to about 5x as potent.

To be completely ridiculous, lets tack on 250 from a stacking sigil, the ascended upgrades, and the defender buffs, for an additional 610 stats. (I’m too lazy at this point to throw in the 10% vitality, but like another 100-200 depending.)

Why will newer players enter WvW, especially upleveled, when the snowball stat difference between fully leveled and geared characters can be so incredibly vast? Are all of these static boons really intended to be worth more than a full set of trait points cumulatively?

For starters, I’d like to recommend that any percentage based boon needs to go, because there’s no diminishing returns on it; that’s silly and I don’t know why any developer would want to subject themselves to that much of a balance headache. Second, if you’re putting in orbs, you need to get rid of stacking sigils (i.e. remove stat when unequipped) and almost definitely nerf the so-powerful-as-to-be-mandatory first two trait lines.

If I had my dithers, I would get rid of all the stat bonuses in favor of some more interesting bonuses from ruins of power and the first two trait lines. Preferably, something that had to do with defense or the usage of siege. I don’t really like the war stomp, because I think it will encourage people to be nasty to those who don’t want to run in a gigantic group, but hey, at least it poses an interesting strategic choice, rather than creating a static and nearly mandatory objective. There are an almost infinite set of boons that would make more sense in the context of world versus world rather than being more boring power creep.

Reduced damage from arrow carts
Increased toughness in structures
Faster workers
Additional guards
Extra points from dolyak escorts/kills
Increased trebuchet damage
Increased supply generation
Less supply for building specific types of siege
Increased World XP

tl;dr

snowball and trait boons are worth upwards of 1k stats, and that’s too high.

Zoel – GM of [coVn]

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Posted by: Xom.9264

Xom.9264

Agree stat creep is crazy right now. Orbs will make it unplayable for some servers give it time.

Xomox ~Human Necro/Engineer ET

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Posted by: Amelia Knox.9362

Amelia Knox.9362

+1 on everything you said

[Dawn] Gandara
Guild Leader

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Posted by: Nuka Cola.8520

Nuka Cola.8520

Already proposed to remove all consumables and i would even go as far as saying to disable Bloodlust recharge on pve ads in wvw, make it so the sigil only recharges when killing another player. Boom everything is solved. Currently its insanely stupid to play with an under leveled character when people can literally 1 hit kill you with ascended weps.

Fact: every Thief tells you to “l2p” when the subject is to nerf stealth.

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Posted by: Esuni.2498

Esuni.2498

Dont forget wep stacks

Anyway, they said no power creep at the start, well it’s there right now and it’s looking bad as hell

Aurora Glade – Esuni [TUP]

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Posted by: Steelo.4597

Steelo.4597

fully agree. also, upscaleds need fixed stats instead of the bad scaling to match exotic gear – i would even vote for no power differences at all like in spvp. i dont even attack upscaleds anymore if they dont attack me with others, just makes me feel lame killing them without a chance for them to kill me.

i fear we will look back to this day and remember the good old wvw as it is now – Jan 2015

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Posted by: Dark Catalyst.1028

Dark Catalyst.1028

Just wait until you have to grind out a full set of ascended gear. It’ll be even worse!

But according to the grinders who are okay with having ascended gear in WvW, imbalance is acceptable.

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Posted by: Nuka Cola.8520

Nuka Cola.8520

Just wait until you have to grind out a full set of ascended gear. It’ll be even worse!

But according to the grinders who are okay with having ascended gear in WvW, imbalance is acceptable.

im full ascended and im FAR from being okay with this but it doesn’t matter, i don’t think anet will do anything

Fact: every Thief tells you to “l2p” when the subject is to nerf stealth.

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Posted by: Dark Catalyst.1028

Dark Catalyst.1028

Just wait until you have to grind out a full set of ascended gear. It’ll be even worse!

But according to the grinders who are okay with having ascended gear in WvW, imbalance is acceptable.

im full ascended and im FAR from being okay with this but it doesn’t matter, i don’t think anet will do anything

Right, but it’s WvW so it’s not really "PvP’. It’s designed to be unfair, and making it fair would invalidate all the time and money the grinders spent on getting gear and buffs. If people want “fair” then they should go play sPvP.

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Posted by: Junkpile.7439

Junkpile.7439

Don’t worry. These people leave game before full ascended set comes because there is always more gear grinding in other games. They notice that full ascended gear doesn’t give big enough advantage. You probably can’t even one hit same level player.

Low quality trolling since launch
Seafarer’s Rest EotM grinch

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Posted by: Lord Kuru.3685

Lord Kuru.3685

It’s getting ridiculous. Get rid of Guard Leech, get rid of Applied Fortitude, rework Orb buff to be non-stat related (+300% MF?). This doesn’t even begin to solve the gear power creep.

Honestly, WvW is doomed because new players or casuals soon won’t be able to compete with veteran players. Without new players WvW dies.

(edited by Lord Kuru.3685)

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Posted by: Zoel.9154

Zoel.9154

Ascended gear doesn’t really bother me so much for a variety of reasons. The methods to obtain it aren’t nearly as onerous as when FOTM was the only game in town for that, and the stat difference between exotic and ascended is actually fairly reasonable given that you use pve gear in wvw. It’s like 200, which strikes me as pretty reasonable.

But the grant of stats five times in excess of the exotic to ascended jump does bother me. Especially since the method of acquisition is so arbitrary and the requirements for the first two trait lines are so very steep. And of course, you can only directly control (at best, if you aren’t in EB) one third of the ruins of power buffs on your own, so it essentially boils down to the luck of who you have on other maps when it comes to that.

I mean, we’re talking about an entire extra set of gear, here. If world ranks unlocked 8 additional trinket slots we would think it was pretty absurd, so why isn’t it absurd when the same stat bonus is just given?

Zoel – GM of [coVn]

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Posted by: Mattargul.9235

Mattargul.9235

Honestly, WvW is doomed because new players or casuals soon won’t be able to compete with veteran players. Without new players WvW dies.

If you think casuals can compete with veteran players if they only had the same gear…, you are going to have a bad time.

As mentioned above, WvW isn’t designed to be “fair”. If you wanted to make it fair we’d get into the whole nonsense of limiting populations, so every server would bring in the same amount of people, no siege, because the guys with 20 arrow carts have an advantage, no walls, because they give an advantage to defenders, etc, etc.

Think of WvW more as trying to beat the odds.

Dances with Leaves – Guardian – Sanctum of Rall (SoR)

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Posted by: AndrewSX.3794

AndrewSX.3794

Consumables and Weapons stacks are fine imo (even if the latter is prolly going to be “fixed” regarding unequipping the weapon with the sigil).

Wxp boons no, cause they give advantage to veterans over new players that goes beyond experience.
Bloodlust no, cause it will just cause snowballing. Orbs proved it back in the day, it’s not even speculation.

Will those 2 be tackled? Nope.

Seafarer’s Rest EU – PvE/WvW – 8 × 80 chars.
Most used: Guard/Mes/War/Nec/Ele.
Yes, i use 5 chars at time. Because REASONS.

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Posted by: Zoel.9154

Zoel.9154

Honestly, WvW is doomed because new players or casuals soon won’t be able to compete with veteran players. Without new players WvW dies.

If you think casuals can compete with veteran players if they only had the same gear…, you are going to have a bad time.

As mentioned above, WvW isn’t designed to be “fair”. If you wanted to make it fair we’d get into the whole nonsense of limiting populations, so every server would bring in the same amount of people, no siege, because the guys with 20 arrow carts have an advantage, no walls, because they give an advantage to defenders, etc, etc.

Think of WvW more as trying to beat the odds.

It’s unfortunate people are so gloomy gus about the whole affair. WvW is not dying tomorrow.

Either way, I’ve never played a game of blackjack where the dealer could go to 31. The dealer would have to offer me pretty ridiculous odds for me to consider playing.

Really, anything more than 10% of the stat budget (which is a lot) going to boons from wxp and orbs isn’t very reasonable. At the very least, those boons should be no more than the jump between exotic and ascended.

I’m not concerned about parity in terms of result. Good players should beat bad players, which, you know, should happen because they’re better. Marginal advantages from numbers, ascended stats, etc. isn’t a huge deal; like you said, it’s a losers game to try and get perfect balance.

But, I think it’s reasonable to expect some modicum of balance to the extent it doesn’t feel like we’re on some sort of weird homebrew server with extreme settings.

Zoel – GM of [coVn]

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Posted by: Lord Kuru.3685

Lord Kuru.3685

Marginal advantages from numbers, ascended stats, etc. isn’t a huge deal; like you said, it’s a losers game to try and get perfect balance.

The problem is that we’re accumulating more and more advantages. They add up. For veteran players, it’s not a big deal, but for new players, they are being put further and further behind. It’s not good to discourage new players.

As for balance. Just because we can’t really have balance doesn’t mean we need to go and make it worse.

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Posted by: Zoel.9154

Zoel.9154

I completely agree. Like I said, there has to be some balance, but I don’t think anyone is demanding that it be perfect.

Zoel – GM of [coVn]

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Posted by: Celtus.8456

Celtus.8456

Adding power/stat creep because they dont know what else to do…it sucks.

Josre
Zulu Ox Tactics [zulu]

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Posted by: Lord Kuru.3685

Lord Kuru.3685

Adding power/stat creep because they dont know what else to do…it sucks.

Rather it’s because they don’t want to do anything, but need at least something to show they’re not completely ignoring the game.

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Posted by: Czar Peter.7961

Czar Peter.7961

WvW is a gimmick, not a serious PvP game mode.

Engineer – Thief – Warrior

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Posted by: selan.8354

selan.8354

WvW is a gimmick, not a serious PvP game mode.

it would be more serious if they would finally start balancing around group fights and not spvp.im tired of being a veilbot.

Lv 80 glamour Mesmer Triforce Mesmerpower PU mes,Lv 80 power necro
[AVTR]
Isle of Kickaspenwood

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Posted by: violentlycar.5267

violentlycar.5267

Think of WvW more as trying to beat the odds.

I hear this argument all the time, but trying to beat the odds is little more than a novelty. If the game isn’t fun after that novelty wears off, then you’re going to have a ghost town. WvW is rapidly heading this way.

Maguuma – plays Asuras with various permutations of the name “Viocar”

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Posted by: Arpheus.6918

Arpheus.6918

I think they should change the values. Guard Leech should grant max 30 power and 30 condition damage and Applied Fortitude should offer 50 vitality instead of 250. 500 more life would still be nice but be far from 2500 more life which is too much.
Imagine a pure glass cannon ele or thief with 12k life. Adding 2500 life is +20% hitpoints which is not balanced at all.
You should be very careful with buffs. They will change the balance alot in WvW and offering the already dominant server even more buffs is a really bad idea.

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Posted by: Menaka.5092

Menaka.5092

bla bla rant bla bla

you forgot the foodbuffs

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Posted by: style.6173

style.6173

None of these should have ever made it into WvW. Mastery skills should not impact the ability of players to fight each other.

Guard Killer : 200 stat
defense against guards : 250 stat
Orb bonuses : 600 stat

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Posted by: style.6173

style.6173

WvW is a gimmick, not a serious PvP game mode.

Actually, WvW is the serious mode. PvP is for casual players. PvP is a very simplistic version of fighting with minimal weapon choices.

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Posted by: Jski.6180

Jski.6180

The acceded weapons will not add too much to WvW because for the most part WvW meta is condition dmg and even just the +20 is not going to add enofe to make any effect in a real fight. As for the vit trate ya that is a bit too strong but even then any wvw wepon can rip ppl apart even untreated. As for other effects only one person is going to get on wvw weapons so missing some level in wvw not going to effect most of the players. The only thing that are “must have” tend to be very low level namely 10 level in Supply Master that only cost 10 points and that is mostly for quality of life effects.

Main : Jski Imaginary ELE (Necromancer)
Guild : OBEY (The Legacy) I call it Obay , TLC (WvW) , UNIV (other)
Server : FA

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Posted by: Shiren.9532

Shiren.9532

Bloodlust buff isn’t technically power creep. It was in the game at launch in the form of orbs and was removed temporarily. Technically WvW was originally designed with orb buffs as part of the baseline power level.

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Posted by: Esuni.2498

Esuni.2498

Bloodlust buff isn’t technically power creep. It was in the game at launch in the form of orbs and was removed temporarily. Technically WvW was originally designed with orb buffs as part of the baseline power level.

And it was removed because it made the stronger server stronger, do your researc
It has also been spammed like 200 times over these forums in the last 1-2 weeks

That said, Anet doesn’t care about WvW, enjoy your useless mesmers and ranger pets while they increase the powercreep and make the difference between strong and weak servers bigger.

Aurora Glade – Esuni [TUP]

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Posted by: Zoel.9154

Zoel.9154

Woe is everyone.

I’m holding out hope that this will eventually be balanced, in so far as the desire to implement “leagues” and a decision to not balance anything ever seems intensely dissonant.

Zoel – GM of [coVn]

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Posted by: Crapgame.6519

Crapgame.6519

It’s broke Jim!

Seriously, there really isn’t anything that makes a whole of sense in regards to the WvWvW play in GW2. Honestly, I think it was a afterthought and an attention getter if truth be told. They know there is this small fringe of people who played DaOC it its prime and care for open world PvP. For those of you who did play even after the PvE addition of Atlantis can see what they tried to do in WvW.

1. Keeps, towers, and Orbs – added, then removed.
2. Jump puzzle != Darkness Falls. There is no boss, there is no risk, and the reward? They removed siege and made it an instance. Zero reason to go in now and no one does. 99% of the time it is empty except for a few who want a quick and easy JP.
3. Leader boards but nothing to show for individual contributing. No daily supplies used, towers captures, number of kills, guilds, alliances, etc. There is nothing that shows anyone anything that a person, or guild did. They are, for the most part, useless.

They should treat WvW like they do T/S PvP and lock gear, problem solved. WvW should yield bonus though for playing such as faster exp, more crafting materials, more money, and equal or greater rewards compared to PvE. Everything should tie around a guild controlling a tower, keep, or castle. Guards should actually make an announcement to online guild members it is being attacked in /g. Kill mobs near x radius means more of everything because you are near a point YOU control.

This league deal, forget it. Won’t change the fact that there is no incentive at the end of the day to WvW. And…to stay on topic, stat creep kills the current solo or small group PvP aspect of WvW. Most know it is smarter to run in a zerg and condition damage flying around makes it utterly stupid.

This aspect of the game is dead or will be shortly. Only thing to be honest in keeping it alive is those who actually care for that type of game play. But we all know kitten well after being ignored for a year it is time to move on.

Main – Laaz Rocket – Guardian (Ehmry Bay)
Johnny Johnny – Ranger (Ehmry Bay)
Hárvey Wallbanger – Alt Warrior (Ehmry Bay)

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Posted by: Timelord.8190

Timelord.8190

I agree. WvW sucks more and more, patch after patch. The removal of culling was the last good patch for wvw. After that it has just gotten worse.

Far ShiverPeaks (EU)

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Posted by: Kalan.9705

Kalan.9705

The constant new grinds require more than my entire playtime, with no chance to catch up to the vertical power creep, I’m considering giving up. Players who enjoy wvw and play for that, especially those with jobs/lives, fall further behind with every patch.

GW2 seems to have broken several of it’s core design promises: it’s a very grindy game, with pay for power items like wxp boosters, constant and unending vertical power creep, and you can’t ‘play it your way’ u have to follow the reward modes. Talk about U-turn!

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Posted by: jalmari.3906

jalmari.3906

The constant new grinds require more than my entire playtime, with no chance to catch up to the vertical power creep, I’m considering giving up. Players who enjoy wvw and play for that, especially those with jobs/lives, fall further behind with every patch.

GW2 seems to have broken several of it’s core design promises: it’s a very grindy game, with pay for power items like wxp boosters, constant and unending vertical power creep, and you can’t ‘play it your way’ u have to follow the reward modes. Talk about U-turn!

What he says.

I used to like WvW a lot and put plenty of my time into playing GW2 WvW.

But since ascended stats came into game I haven’t really been able to keep my stats up to some acceptable level so I could have fun.

I really don’t even have a single ascended backpiece yet since it needs too much FOTM grind and it’s only way to get it.. yeah you could use mystic forge but that’s way too much gold for casual pver like me.

Grind for ascended gear and RNG for legendaries are just really too much for me and I really believe it’s way too much for many other people too. And then there’s million things you need to do daily that it leaves no time for actually playing the game.

I still log in occassionally to do some pve couple of times a week, but I think I am pretty much done with any kind of daily gameplay and wvw or pvp in this game for time being. I just cannot force myself to just log in to do some daily stuff to get the gear I want. Or go grind fotm/daily bosses whatever you name it… It is just ridiculous. It’s not fun.

Guardian 80 Necromancer 80 Ranger 80 Mesmer 80 Elementalist 80 Warrior 80

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Posted by: Gathslan.1870

Gathslan.1870

Agreed, please rethink what you are doing Anet

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Posted by: Kalan.9705

Kalan.9705

I wish there was alternate version of wvw that used the gear system from the arena modes (pvp).

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Posted by: Zoel.9154

Zoel.9154

I’m not really sure why you’d be worried about ascended gear. I play WvW pretty much always, and getting applied fortitude took way way way longer than getting any of my ascended gear.

Although, if you have limited play time, ascended gear probably isn’t even remotely worth it.

I mean, ascended gear just isn’t that good. Full ascended including weapon only gets you +198 from exotic, and orb buffs alone (since they include condi and hp too, thought they didn’t in op, whoops) get you +900.

The only real advantage to ascended is that it lets you use fewer pieces to make a glass bunker when you have the buffs.

I spent yesterday getting spare gear pieces for my cleric guardian.

When life gives you bad game balance, break it. 1000 healing power, 3,500 attack, 3,100 armor, 30 percent crit chance (50 with fury), 22 percent crit damage, 20k health?

Well. Ok. I guess I’ll take all the stats since they’re there.

Zoel – GM of [coVn]

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Posted by: AgentChaos.4932

AgentChaos.4932

Can you post the build to your cleric guard? 30 critical chance Is very impressive

Roleplayer.

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Posted by: Chopps.5047

Chopps.5047

I share your concern about power creep in wvw. It seems weaker players will have to use more seige and better strategy? Let’s see how this pans out. I’m not looking forward to more 1 or 2 shots from thieves (bronze major), CC spam from warriors, or any of the other OP builds abused by so-called ‘veterans’.

Tin Foil Hat Hearer »—> Ranger Extraordinaire »—> “Be like water…”

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Posted by: EFWinters.5421

EFWinters.5421

I don’t see the stats increasing siege damage, so there can’t be a power creep. WvW is about sieging and holding objectives.

Right?

Human Guardian
Fort Aspenwood

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Posted by: Kalan.9705

Kalan.9705

I’m mainly worried that those who aren’t totally hardcore will start to give up because they cannot keep up. It’s very demoralising to know you have both less time to work on your skills, but also large stat imbalances to make the situation that much worse.

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Posted by: Spilluminati.3295

Spilluminati.3295

What are the “Orb Bonuses” for 600 stat referring to? I am new to WvW thanks for patience but I looked it up and saw that orbs of power were removed from the game some months ago for balance reasons.

Also 5% health comes from maxed PoTM bonus amiright?

Thanks guys I’m just trying to figure out the mechanics right now not really qualified to post on the debate.

(edited by Spilluminati.3295)

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Posted by: Thrumdi.9216

Thrumdi.9216

What are the “Orb Bonuses” for 600 stat referring to? I am new to WvW thanks for patience but I looked it up and saw that orbs of power were removed from the game some months ago for balance reasons.

Also 5% health comes from maxed PoTM bonus amiright?

Thanks guys I’m just trying to figure out the mechanics right now not really qualified to post on the debate.

In today’s patch, the BL lakes become “ruins of power” where, if you control 3/5 cap points, you get one of the old Orb buffs (called “Bloodlust”).

Thrumdi, Captain of The Tarnished Coastguard

The ultimate GW2 troll.

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Posted by: Kalan.9705

Kalan.9705

It’s getting ridiculous. Get rid of Guard Leech, get rid of Applied Fortitude, rework Orb buff to be non-stat related (+300% MF?). This doesn’t even begin to solve the gear power creep.

Honestly, WvW is doomed because new players or casuals soon won’t be able to compete with veteran players. Without new players WvW dies.

Is the imbalance and snowballing deliberate? Do unhappy players buy more gems for transfers ,wxp, trying to catch grinders spend power on the trade post?

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Posted by: Zenguy.6421

Zenguy.6421

Power creep in World Versus World has now reached the point that it poses a significant barrier to entry for casual players.

+1

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Posted by: Aberrant.6749

Aberrant.6749

Power creep in World Versus World has now reached the point that it poses a significant barrier to entry for casual players.

+1

+2

I would also include alts in this.

Tarnished Coast
Salvage 4 Profit + MF Guide – http://tinyurl.com/l8ff6pa

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Posted by: Zenguy.6421

Zenguy.6421

Power creep in World Versus World has now reached the point that it poses a significant barrier to entry for casual players.

+1

+2

I would also include alts in this.

This too

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Posted by: daydream.2938

daydream.2938

Orbs would be better if they gave a non combat -yet important -bonus. Like + magic find %, or + drop rate on currency tokens.

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Posted by: Gathslan.1870

Gathslan.1870

Orbs would be better if they gave a non combat -yet important -bonus. Like + magic find %, or + drop rate on currency tokens.

Agreed 100%
Anet please make WvW fun again and get rid off the orb buff the wvw xp buffs are already bad enough D :

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Posted by: Shiren.9532

Shiren.9532

Bloodlust buff isn’t technically power creep. It was in the game at launch in the form of orbs and was removed temporarily. Technically WvW was originally designed with orb buffs as part of the baseline power level.

And it was removed because it made the stronger server stronger, do your researc
It has also been spammed like 200 times over these forums in the last 1-2 weeks

That said, Anet doesn’t care about WvW, enjoy your useless mesmers and ranger pets while they increase the powercreep and make the difference between strong and weak servers bigger.

It was removed because every WvW thread was full of “Server x hacked our orb!” and videos of the orb being hacked were popping up all over youtube. The devs were unable to deal with the hacking problem (it was just too easy to hack the orb) and balance issues (this does not mean making the strong server stronger – originaly orbs could snowball because they can sit in fully upgraded keeps which was too much of an uphill battle -the bloodlust buff which has nothing to do with upgraded keeps). I don’t need to “do my research” I was around when the orb was in the game, I read the explanation of why it was removed. As far as spamming something 200 times over the last few weeks goes – saying something loudly, ignorantly and often does not make it true.

Here is the exact patch note: Orbs of power have been removed from WvW to address hacking and balance issues. They tended to strengthen teams already in the lead and were irresistible targets for hackers and cheaters, both of which could have an unfortunately large impact on any given WvW game. Orbs or some similar mechanic may return in the future, but only if we’re confident that they won’t create similar issues.

The bloodlust buff has nothing to do with power creep – it replaces a mechanic that was in the game at launch. It replaces old content, it doesn’t add new power. It would like taking DPS away from a pet and giving it to the ranger – overall the ranger does the same amount of damage, just the source of the damage is different (rangers should be happy because this is one the first buff mechanics in the game that actually benefits the pet as well as the ranger). Technically the bloodlust buff is less powerful than the orb buff because it doesn’t give a 5% boost to health.