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Posted by: Dawdler.8521

Dawdler.8521

So you want to design wvw to get away from zerging but due to the technical limitations of your servers and the effect they have on aoe limitations you can’t? And yes 5 player cap on aoe means it is easier to group up to reduce damage and cc.

And no AoE limitation would only mean zergs become even larger clusters of AoE ranged characters in order to be overpowering. Is that supposed to be preferable to guilds melee clashing?

Either way a commander usually run around AoE – the ball is there to ensure there is force in the attack just as much as it is a means of protection. But you dont run into ten million necro circles laughing “we’re 20 haha they can only hit 5!” just for kittens and giggles.

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Posted by: Zepher.7803

Zepher.7803

the most successful battles in the open field are always people who listen to the commander and STACK, Flank, PUSH etc.

and it helps to see how much supply the group has, which allows the commander to figure out what and how much siege can be thrown down and successfully built.

any commander knows how absolutely worthless the blue icon is if no one listens, and goes off doing their own thing. So to have a better WvW experience listen to commander and don’t freaking worry about someone touching your toons butt (really?)

Sincerly, Me.

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Posted by: Hickeroar.9734

Hickeroar.9734

Doesn’t it make us more susceptible to AOE attacks? :/

Actually it’s the opposite. Any AOE attack can affect a maximum of 5 people. The more people in one small area, the less a lot of aoe is going to affect the total health of the zerg as the attacks will be separated out between more possible players.

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Posted by: Volcanus.2756

Volcanus.2756

You put a limit on the aoe damage. The spell only does a certain amount of damage and gets divided by the number of players that get hit. Just one option that can be implemented for some spells. However we will never know how that will work due to limitations. I think the aoe cap is just one small concept that allows for balling up to work better instead more strike teams. Smaller maps would actually work more towards balling up. Only way would be to put a player limit on that map so it’s only 15 on 15 on 15. The zerg works so well because the maps are small enough for them to respond to everything in time. You would have to increase the map sizes so that the zerg has to split up to defend everything.

And if you like to zerg I’m sorry. I use the term zerg in its definition of outnumbering with weak and expendable units with no skill involved to defeat something. If that’s your meta then fine be it. It’s not mine and looking for a balance for 15-25 man groups. Arena net had stated many times in the past that they want to get away from it. But everything they do and have done makes it easier to group up everyone on the map into ball. The technical limitations on the server are just one if these flaws.

Burstz-Warrior
Damage Inc. [DI]
Isle of Janthir

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Posted by: Draygo.9473

Draygo.9473

You put a limit on the aoe damage. The spell only does a certain amount of damage and gets divided by the number of players that get hit. Just one option that can be implemented for some spells.

Just so you know, this idea is mathematically the same as the aoe target cap of 5.

Delarme
Apathy Inc [Ai]

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Posted by: Colly.4073

Colly.4073

skill lag

Now that you mentioned those 2 words in that post, Care to give us any information on where your at with a possible fix?? Or at least get Bill Friest to update the community.

PLEASE!..

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Posted by: ilr.9675

ilr.9675

So you want to design wvw to get away from zerging but due to the technical limitations of your servers and the effect they have on aoe limitations you can’t?

The right incentives would still trump this “limitation causing partial safety”.

Think about it anywhere besides a Front Door… where you’re only likely to have 10 players within a series of AOE positions at a time (b/c these aren’t Spartans… they’re still pubbers for the most part). 5 in 10 of them will be hit by the AOE’s. That means half of them could still die in the first vollies…. And 5 vollies could reduce an army of 100 to 50 and not everyone could be rallied in time. If that wasn’t how it worked, every fight would already be a Constant stalemate… But they’re not.

So if given objectives that are less of a lottery and more strategy or skill based, there will plenty of players heading to those objectives instead. This really isn’t supported yet b/c every borderland is the same…. hasn’t changed since launch… and are relatively flat, linear, & devoid of rewards compared to EB. But with the right ingenuity, drastically different approaches would start to appear and the whole format might even see populations increasing instead of slowly decreasing.

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Posted by: Parthis.2091

Parthis.2091

Just wanted to hop in and mention, again, that the AoE cap on player skills is a technical limitation. Were we to increase that, skill lag would get considerably worse.

So, once the fix to skill lag is in (and I assume a fix is in progress?) will we see changes to the AoE cap if it’s limited purely for technical reasons?

Or are you happy with the AoE cap?

Commander Amayasu Gerani, Guardian.
Leader of [JDGE] on Gandara EU.
A GW2 API for Objective-C – http://tinyurl.com/durmandpriory

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Posted by: Parthis.2091

Parthis.2091

So you want to design wvw to get away from zerging but due to the technical limitations of your servers and the effect they have on aoe limitations you can’t? And yes 5 player cap on aoe means it is easier to group up to reduce damage and cc.

One thing to remember. A lot of us LIKE zerging. Changing the gameplay away from that would lose a lot of players. Instead, there need to be some newer smaller maps that cater to people such as yourself who want smaller scale combat.

I think many of us have no problem with zerging, it’s just that the balance and mechanics of WvW are massively tilted towards zerging and that’s wrong.

Commander Amayasu Gerani, Guardian.
Leader of [JDGE] on Gandara EU.
A GW2 API for Objective-C – http://tinyurl.com/durmandpriory

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Posted by: Parktou.4263

Parktou.4263

So you want to design wvw to get away from zerging but due to the technical limitations of your servers and the effect they have on aoe limitations you can’t? And yes 5 player cap on aoe means it is easier to group up to reduce damage and cc.

One thing to remember. A lot of us LIKE zerging. Changing the gameplay away from that would lose a lot of players. Instead, there need to be some newer smaller maps that cater to people such as yourself who want smaller scale combat.

This is gonna get deleted but, what kind of person do you have to be to LIKE zerging????

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Posted by: Katz.5143

Katz.5143

When I’m running with a group that stacks and stays together perfectly, we can wipe an opposing group that is double our size or more. When we don’t stack and run every which way separately, we die to much smaller groups if they are doing what we should have been doing (stacking and sticking together).

Our skills, boons, shouts, condition removers, aoe heals, and so forth work well together but we must be together for maximum benefit.

It’s a kitten conspiracy. Kittens gonna be kittens. All is vain!

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Posted by: Ross Biddle.2367

Ross Biddle.2367

Sadly yes its zerg vs zerg vs zerg, I would love to see 30 teams of 10 people running around doing different stuff and roaming. But the mechanics and mainly the general populace are stuck in a zerg mode of 1 team of 300. :/

Like in the movie, it effectively countered the mindless Persian ocean.

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Posted by: Ross Biddle.2367

Ross Biddle.2367

Let’s be fair here. Yes there are main forces- “zergs”, but for every successful server running its zergs there are scouts in tower/keeps, field havok squads denying supply, and leading scouts putting eyes ahead of the zerg.

If you’re real cleaver your zerg might also be broken down into melee and ranged. And, pre zerg clash, if you’ve got the right players with the right builds and skills, sappers able to mess with the enemy zergs formations/plans.

There’s tons going on within any given map. All you have to decide is where you’re going to be.

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Posted by: Xsorus.2507

Xsorus.2507

Just wanted to hop in and mention, again, that the AoE cap on player skills is a technical limitation. Were we to increase that, skill lag would get considerably worse.

Really….Worse…?

So instead of just taking 30 seconds to use an ability like now…the Anet servers would leave the building, get in the car, drive to my house, punt kick my dog, and punch me in the nuts?

Because i really can’t see how it can get much worse

http://www.youtube.com/user/Xsorus/videos?view=0
Natures Ninja and Pain Inverter – Ranger PvP movies
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Posted by: dusanyu.4057

dusanyu.4057

Problem with commander is the it is bought and not earned (huge mistake) I trust most of them as far as I can toss em

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Posted by: DeadlySynz.3471

DeadlySynz.3471

Just wanted to hop in and mention, again, that the AoE cap on player skills is a technical limitation. Were we to increase that, skill lag would get considerably worse.

Can’t our AoE be designed to mimic an arrow cart? lol.

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Posted by: nirvana.8245

nirvana.8245

Increasing the AoE cap would have no effect on zerging, it would only change the meta. That said, id totally be in favour of reducing the map cap to both reduce the number of players the server has to deal with in order to give it some hamster power to bump the AoE cap up a bit.

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Posted by: Omnitek.3876

Omnitek.3876

Problem with commander is the it is bought and not earned (huge mistake) I trust most of them as far as I can toss em

Why don’t you get a tag and show them how to command?

A L T S
Skritt Happens

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Posted by: Clockradio.3257

Clockradio.3257

Problem with commander is the it is bought and not earned (huge mistake) I trust most of them as far as I can toss em

Why don’t you get a tag and show them how to command?

That, and why exactly does it matter if you trust them? If you think they’re just going to wipe their group over and over, then don’t follow them…

Clockradio | [TSYM] | Sanctum of Rall
tsym.enjin.com

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Posted by: PariahX.6970

PariahX.6970

Just wanted to hop in and mention, again, that the AoE cap on player skills is a technical limitation. Were we to increase that, skill lag would get considerably worse.

Really….Worse…?

So instead of just taking 30 seconds to use an ability like now…the Anet servers would leave the building, get in the car, drive to my house, punt kick my dog, and punch me in the nuts?

Because i really can’t see how it can get much worse

quoted for truth, if skill lag could be worse I think it might break some time space continuum and actually get so bad it was better. o.O Lets give it a try! Come on, the gate is straight, Deep and wide, Break on through to the other side!

~Xylla~ [oG] on Ehmry Bay [PiXi]
Xyleia Luxuria / Sweet Little Agony / Morning Glory Wine / Precious Illusionz /
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Posted by: violentlycar.5267

violentlycar.5267

It probably wouldn’t get worse so much as it would be more common. Skill lag is fairly rare outside of tier 1, but if it indeed would cause more load to remove or increase the AoE cap, we’d probably see it pretty consistently in lower tiers as well.

Maguuma – plays Asuras with various permutations of the name “Viocar”

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Posted by: Dutchares.6084

Dutchares.6084

Organized groups loves zergs that stack up in a small group.
I can show you lots of videos where our guild or another organized guild group kills a zerg within seconds only because they stand all at the same spot.
Focus damage/CC on 1 spot > then damage migration of the aoe limit.

Also do people really think that increasing the AOE cap people will stop zerging??
The AOE cap will also works for zergs.. The only thing zergers stop zerging is making it more rewarding to run in smaller groups.(or less to run in zergs)
But at the moment the game is all about who has the biggest population in wvw most of the time.
And it looks like most of the people playing wvw love to zerg, even so much they don’t mind the skill lag.. and only playing with the 1 auto-attack.
I really would like to know why people would like it so much.

Our guild is in a medium/low tier. We don’t like zerging(hate skill lag) and like to run on our own. This means yeah we loose from time to time (dropping tiers) and we will never end up being in tier1. But we still love it.
So how many of you zergers will still like to zerg if it isn’t that powerfull.. if you only drop tiers if you do it?? Will you still run in zergs?

I think instead of increasing the AOE cap. They should make the commanders and squad better
For example:
-max size of squad = 30 people
-commanders can activate banners on people in his/her squad
- all banners have a cool-down of 1 hour and need to be charged up by killing people or guards(killing 50 people/100 guards for each banner) .
- there are 5 different kind of banners
—— healing banner (heal allies(not yourself) around you for 400 every x seconds (Radius: 120 )
—— freeze banner (freeze enemies around you for 10 seconds (radius 120))
——shield banner (create a dome around you.. enemies can enter the dome.. but you cant hit people inside the dome with range (count for enemies and allies) .. ground targets don’t work inside the dome(size like mesmers Feedback bubble))
—- siege defense (create a dome around you.. enemies can enter the dome.. siege cant be use inside the dome. People inside the dome cant get hit by siege(size like mesmers Feedback bubble))
—- suicide banner (explode after 10 seconds killing every thing(carrier + allies + enemies) around it instantly (radius 120) )
-The banner ability will stop working when the person who carries it dies. Or when the banner is picked up by an enemy. A carrier of a banner can also plant the banner so another ally can pick it up.
Or when their are more then 35 allies in range of the banner carrier(1200)
Or after 5 minutes (so max 5 minutes)
- Banners can only be cast if their are more then 20 allies inside the squad. And if their are less then 35 allies in range (1200)
- charges for banners will only increase if their are less then 35 allies in range(1200)
- the commander has also an ability to teleport allies home if an ally, who is not in his/her squad.. stays for longer then a minute in range(1200) , cool-down 3 minutes

You will still have the large keep fights.. but a good 30 people group who have their squad abilities charged up can kill even a +100 people blob if played right.

Ares
The Unlikely Plan(TUP)

(edited by Dutchares.6084)

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Posted by: Dawdler.8521

Dawdler.8521

The suicide banner would be a passive effect on everyone around you right? It woukd be a great way to clear pugs out of a guild group

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Posted by: TheGreatA.4192

TheGreatA.4192

Turtle zergs make for a nice farmable group. If you aren’t organized, don’t try to play organized, in my opinion.

You will have a better chance against a guild group by being spread out since they won’t be able to kill more than a few people with their pushes, which you can immediately res afterwards. Eventually they will start melting against larger numbers.

Metsän Suojelija (guard)/Puun Halaaja (engi)/Pieni Musta Rotta (warrior)/Viher Rauha (necro)

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Posted by: Nikola.3841

Nikola.3841

Just wanted to hop in and mention, again, that the AoE cap on player skills is a technical limitation. Were we to increase that, skill lag would get considerably worse.

Bad programming? DAOC had much more server calculations 11 years ago, on supposedly much crappier servers

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Posted by: Leo Paul.1659

Leo Paul.1659

I really wouldn’t mind if my team of 30 gets defeated by a much smaller group due to aoe.. If we got wiped by a smaller group, we probably deserved it.

Also, does the aoe limit apply to pve as well? I wonder why they don’t increase the limit for pve..

Queen Of The Moors (Blackgate)
Deaths Fear [Fear] / The Hardcore Caravan [HC]
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Posted by: Niim.9260

Niim.9260

One thing to remember. A lot of us LIKE zerging. Changing the gameplay away from that would lose a lot of players. Instead, there need to be some newer smaller maps that cater to people such as yourself who want smaller scale combat.

The game doesn’t reward small play, the size of maps has nothing at all to do with it.

Zerging is part of the game, and it should be for a variety of reasons. The issue is that zerging is so easy and heavily rewarded that the zergs in this game are horrible and boring.

~ AoN ~

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Posted by: Niim.9260

Niim.9260

Just wanted to hop in and mention, again, that the AoE cap on player skills is a technical limitation. Were we to increase that, skill lag would get considerably worse.

How many times have you used that excuse?

~ AoN ~

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Posted by: Faranox.4217

Faranox.4217

Just wanted to hop in and mention, again, that the AoE cap on player skills is a technical limitation. Were we to increase that, skill lag would get considerably worse.

This is sad to hear. Is it something that may change in the future?

Chops Mcgee, of Anvil Rock

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Posted by: Thrashbarg.9820

Thrashbarg.9820

Also, does the aoe limit apply to pve as well? I wonder why they don’t increase the limit for pve..

Because the server knows exactly where all the mobs are and what they are doing all the time.

In PvE there are 2 factors, your computer/connection and the server. In PvP the amount of information requiring processing is exponentially higher due to the server needing constant input about the positions and actions of each player character in relation to every other.

The AoE cap being raised would require a serious reworking of retaliation. Removing it entirely would probably result in Bright Wizards 2.0.

Hats off to all the ones who stood before me, and taught a fool to ride.

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Posted by: Xsorus.2507

Xsorus.2507

Also, does the aoe limit apply to pve as well? I wonder why they don’t increase the limit for pve..

Because the server knows exactly where all the mobs are and what they are doing all the time.

In PvE there are 2 factors, your computer/connection and the server. In PvP the amount of information requiring processing is exponentially higher due to the server needing constant input about the positions and actions of each player character in relation to every other.

The AoE cap being raised would require a serious reworking of retaliation. Removing it entirely would probably result in Bright Wizards 2.0.

At this point, this game needs Bright Wizards 2.0…

The game simply rewards zerging far to much…

Also just to clear things up, The only reason Bright Wizards worked in Warhammer very well was the fact that you could make large stack of Tanks who were incredibly hard to kill..block off the one exit up into the keep and just Face tank the zerg while they aoe in one spot…You simply cannot do that in this game very well…

What removing the AOE cap would do is allow a couple AOEers to bomb the hell out of larger groups and possibly wipe them…Though at this point i don’t think its really worth changing..

Since A. Anet has stated their game programming doesn’t allow this for some odd reason, and B. Anet has decided this game is just going to reward Zerging Mouth Breather’s and they have no intentions of changing their game for the better

Thankfully we have CU coming in a few years…Which maybe will get MMO backs to the non suckfest status it was before WoW and games like GW2 came along and crapped on the genre..

Who knows..Maybe ESO might be good as well.. Hopefully they don’t copy the joke this game has turned out to be…

http://www.youtube.com/user/Xsorus/videos?view=0
Natures Ninja and Pain Inverter – Ranger PvP movies
http://www.twitch.tv/xsorovos

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Posted by: XII.9401

XII.9401

So you want to design wvw to get away from zerging but due to the technical limitations of your servers and the effect they have on aoe limitations you can’t? And yes 5 player cap on aoe means it is easier to group up to reduce damage and cc.

One thing to remember. A lot of us LIKE zerging. Changing the gameplay away from that would lose a lot of players. Instead, there need to be some newer smaller maps that cater to people such as yourself who want smaller scale combat.

I think many of us have no problem with zerging, it’s just that the balance and mechanics of WvW are massively tilted towards zerging and that’s wrong.

Ooo a zergling guild leader knows how to use the forums!

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Posted by: XII.9401

XII.9401

Just wanted to hop in and mention, again, that the AoE cap on player skills is a technical limitation. Were we to increase that, skill lag would get considerably worse.

Really….Worse…?

So instead of just taking 30 seconds to use an ability like now…the Anet servers would leave the building, get in the car, drive to my house, punt kick my dog, and punch me in the nuts?

Because i really can’t see how it can get much worse

quoted for truth, if skill lag could be worse I think it might break some time space continuum and actually get so bad it was better. o.O Lets give it a try! Come on, the gate is straight, Deep and wide, Break on through to the other side!

If they can’t fix the orbs..why makes you think they can deal with AOE on more than 5 targets?

Remember the culling? Remember how long it took to fix it?

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Posted by: Terrahero.9358

Terrahero.9358

Just wanted to hop in and mention, again, that the AoE cap on player skills is a technical limitation. Were we to increase that, skill lag would get considerably worse.

Then maybe you can do something about stacking Retaliation, and how rediculous the damage is people take for AoEing into a zerg.

Thats a rather big crutch a zergblob does not need.

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Posted by: Iruwen.3164

Iruwen.3164

You put a limit on the aoe damage. The spell only does a certain amount of damage and gets divided by the number of players that get hit. Just one option that can be implemented for some spells.

Just so you know, this idea is mathematically the same as the aoe target cap of 5.

Just the maximum amount of damage is the same, it’s a whole different story though. There has to be cap to keep the balancing between direct damage and AE damage abilities intact. Like this:
http://www.wowwiki.com/Area_damage_caps#3.3_Mechanics

Iruwen Evillan, Human Mesmer on Drakkar Lake

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Posted by: Leo Paul.1659

Leo Paul.1659

Can someone explain to me why people think it’s still gonna be the same (balling up tightly) even if the aoe cap is raised?

Queen Of The Moors (Blackgate)
Deaths Fear [Fear] / The Hardcore Caravan [HC]
Forum Warrior: Black Belt in Ninja Edits

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Posted by: Zosk.5609

Zosk.5609

They still have to go through a relatively small door or wall…. and they still only get buffs from each other if they stick close…and there is no collision in this game….

An AoE cap of 10 or so makes a lot more sense, but it is not going to stop large groups doing things and the large groups might stop purposely standing on top of each other but they’re still going to be together because they’re all trying to do the same things at the same time.

Since every attack in the game is basically AoE…it’s questionable how much effect raising the cap will really have, honestly. It’s pretty much dumbing things down and the concept in many/most MMOs of higher damage single target attacks vs lower damage AoE attacks only exists in a watered down way.

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Posted by: Xsorus.2507

Xsorus.2507

Until an actual threat to large zergs is in the game, Zerging will always be the best strategy for PvP in WvW…Simply put, the high population server is always going to win…

Its why no one on SBI seriously takes defending our borderlands anymore..Cause unless we’re they high population server, It serves zero purpose in trying to win the matchup… We’re better off just having all our forces sit in EB and run around in a bloody circle zerging..

Its also why no one seriously takes this game as a PvP game anymore, Be it SPvP for its many reasons, or WvW

Right now everyone is pretty much going through the motions till something else comes along…When ESO comes out, it’s absolutely going to take a dump on the PvP population of this game even if it turns out to be bad….

http://www.youtube.com/user/Xsorus/videos?view=0
Natures Ninja and Pain Inverter – Ranger PvP movies
http://www.twitch.tv/xsorovos

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Posted by: defrule.7236

defrule.7236

The benefit of stacking is distributed damage. If I keep AoEing in an area with only 5 people in it, the same 5 people will take the damage. If there was more than 5 people in the area, I still hit 5 people but it won’t be the same 5 each time. So instead of 5 people taking heavy damage, it because many people taking light damage which isn’t life-threatening.

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Posted by: joshisanonymous.5270

joshisanonymous.5270

GW2 is anti small man, pro zerg..

Anet talks about how they wanted to emulate DAOC, but it becomes pretty obvious when playing that they have ZERO idea how DAOC really was…and I question that any of them ever played the game to begin with.

Uh, multiple lead designers for GW2 worked on DAoC. Pretty sure they’ve played it.

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Posted by: morrolan.9608

morrolan.9608

Uh, multiple lead designers for GW2 worked on DAoC.

Who? From what I understand they’re either on Camelot Unchained or TESO.

Jade Quarry [SoX]
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro

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Posted by: stratosphere.9401

stratosphere.9401

Removing the AOE cap wont remove zerging and grouping up.

But stacking…it’s so effective, yet it’s shallow and stale in terms of strategy.

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Posted by: Monoman.2068

Monoman.2068

I say “complete victory” because in WvW anything short of a 100% wipe is nearly pointless as well, with everyone being able quickly resurrect downed allies. So even if your well-coordinated 5-man group manages to kill 10 people in a 20-man zerg, you really didn’t stop them at all.

Agreed. Today I just came out of a 1v5 today (1 was my original opponent losing the fight, 3 or so was definitely glassy, 1 was up leveled, and the 4 late comers were terrible) and at one point I had 3 of my 5 opponents down and I couldn’t do anything. I had more than enough skills to put up a good fight against my last two opponents if the other two were dead, but instead I had to attempt to run with my remaining skills out of fear for the 3 that I downed getting back up with full skills to blow. I didn’t get far before they caught up and stomped me.

This pack mentality isn’t going anywhere as long the down state (and a few other issues) exists. The bigger and more compact the group is, the faster you can take out key targets without dedicating time to stomping. Just looking at a few of the offensive perks to stacking without looking at anything else explains it all.

Laviere – Hybrid Wellomancer
Makonne – Hybrid Regen Ranger

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Posted by: Bushido.2184

Bushido.2184

Can someone explain to me why people think it’s still gonna be the same (balling up tightly) even if the aoe cap is raised?

When there was no AoE cap, people still did not spread out; it was just range wars. This may partly be due to the fact that there is just so little plain, open field.

Also, almost all targeted or controlled support / heals were traded for support that affects only people close to you.

This would mean that Warriors running shouts would indeed heal the whole entire zerg each shout, and each Shake It Off may heal 60+ conditions per shout, per war. That scaling is ridiculous.

The trinity was removed and attempted to create more positional support and awareness, but in the end this positional support was just less control given to the players and have “4 closest allies” targets, requiring sticking close for max potential. With this lack of control also comes less tactical reasons to position yourself strategically and more spread out such as in DAoC and GW1 GvG.

Leet Hacker (War) | Linüx (Necro) | Linúx (Ele)
Quit to play my 2 favorite competitive fps and moba games ported to my favorite OS.

(edited by Bushido.2184)

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Posted by: Parthis.2091

Parthis.2091

So you want to design wvw to get away from zerging but due to the technical limitations of your servers and the effect they have on aoe limitations you can’t? And yes 5 player cap on aoe means it is easier to group up to reduce damage and cc.

One thing to remember. A lot of us LIKE zerging. Changing the gameplay away from that would lose a lot of players. Instead, there need to be some newer smaller maps that cater to people such as yourself who want smaller scale combat.

I think many of us have no problem with zerging, it’s just that the balance and mechanics of WvW are massively tilted towards zerging and that’s wrong.

Ooo a zergling guild leader knows how to use the forums!

Ooo, a misinformed troll clearly knows how to use the forums, but then it is the only place he excels.

Or, put another way; not having a problem with zerging isn’t the same as being part of the zerg. I’m fine with players who want to zerg – I don’t zerg at all, and my massive zerg guild of 12 people runs independently, always.

My point was this; players wanting to zerg isn’t the issue. The game mechanics that make it the optimal way to play is the issue (both in a reward sense and in an effective strategy sense). Zerging should be viable for those who enjoy it, not optimal, and certainly not impossible to those that don’t.

So big man, perhaps stop being so quick to overreact, perhaps read a little more, think a little less (you’re ill-equipped) and accept that there are many, many different people who play this game, and all playstyles should be catered for.

Devon; you’ve still not addressed any of the follow on questions posted in this or any other thread. The Anet WvW Wall Of Silence is becoming a problem.

Commander Amayasu Gerani, Guardian.
Leader of [JDGE] on Gandara EU.
A GW2 API for Objective-C – http://tinyurl.com/durmandpriory

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Posted by: Chorazin.4107

Chorazin.4107

I say “complete victory” because in WvW anything short of a 100% wipe is nearly pointless as well, with everyone being able quickly resurrect downed allies. So even if your well-coordinated 5-man group manages to kill 10 people in a 20-man zerg, you really didn’t stop them at all.

Agreed. Today I just came out of a 1v5 today (1 was my original opponent losing the fight, 3 or so was definitely glassy, 1 was up leveled, and the 4 late comers were terrible) and at one point I had 3 of my 5 opponents down and I couldn’t do anything. I had more than enough skills to put up a good fight against my last two opponents if the other two were dead, but instead I had to attempt to run with my remaining skills out of fear for the 3 that I downed getting back up with full skills to blow. I didn’t get far before they caught up and stomped me.

This pack mentality isn’t going anywhere as long the down state (and a few other issues) exists. The bigger and more compact the group is, the faster you can take out key targets without dedicating time to stomping. Just looking at a few of the offensive perks to stacking without looking at anything else explains it all.

Dont get me started on the downed state in this game and how its got ‘lets zerg’ written all over it. U just cant finish people off reliably against larger numbers, pushing in to try a stake will get u killed as you stand still for 3 seconds staking, and they can just pile 3-4 ppl on a target and bam hes up in a couple seconds and the only drawback …. a couple hp’s less, access to all his skills, full dps, the drawback needs to be much harsher or it needs to be a lot harder to accomplish(but still have everyone able to perform the action thus eliminating the need for specific classes that can rez).

I have some good fraps of our 5 man vs about 15 people, we would have dropped about 5-7 over the course of the fight we did get 1 or 2 stakes off but its just too easy to get rezzed(from the downed state) and run straight back into the fight blasting away again.

It’s noticeable in all aspects of this game you have 3 vs 5 and drop a target or 2 usually those targets will get rezzed( if the 5 have any kind of cohesive play), 1 vs 3, same deal. Numbers mean far too much and seems reward for co-ordinated small group play is underwhelming.

Chorazin
[lion]~ riperonis
[tRex]

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Posted by: Dedlaw.9130

Dedlaw.9130

Another question, is it really better to rally all of the people in a map and take territories one by one? I was thinking maybe it’s good to make like 3 groups or something then coordinate into taking several points at once since the NPCs get Righteous Indignation for a while anyway..

Funny story over the weekend -

Was tagging along with a zerg on one of the borderlands, an there was another large SoR zerg also roaming about. What made it funny was when we attacked Bay, they attacked Hills. We’d zerg over and take back Hills, then they’d take back Bay. It was all about capping and never once did anyone defend on either side. Just back and forth, over and over.

So no, all in one big group is not the way to go

Dedlaw – Fresh 80 Zerker Warrior
DODGE!!! – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvS6zMThiZU

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Posted by: plegnic.8324

plegnic.8324

Also, does the aoe limit apply to pve as well? I wonder why they don’t increase the limit for pve..

Because the server knows exactly where all the mobs are and what they are doing all the time.

In PvE there are 2 factors, your computer/connection and the server. In PvP the amount of information requiring processing is exponentially higher due to the server needing constant input about the positions and actions of each player character in relation to every other.

The AoE cap being raised would require a serious reworking of retaliation. Removing it entirely would probably result in Bright Wizards 2.0.

From what I understand, the biggest reason for AoE cap is the calculation cost. It’s easy to think, “But there’s only 12 conditions.. how hard can that be to compute?!” The problem comes in when you look at how conditions are implemented and how many people there are. ANet needs to consider the absolute worst case because it could potentially happen: each player has 25 stacks of 12 conditions which is 300 stacks. Each of those stacks has an individual timer that updates every tick(one second). Suppose a total of 600 people are in the map (is 200/team a decent estimate?) that’s 180,000 condition stacks updating every second. Not to mention player positions, chat, camp/tower/keep statuses, siege has health, doors/walls have health, and npcs/monsters can receive conditions too… Then each and every client has to be updated constantly with the new information. This is a close to worst-case scenario but you can see how it can get out of hand very quickly even with smaller battles.

P.S. This is way over-simplified. I know not all conditions are implemented like this but they still take additional calculations when new stacks are added.

(edited by plegnic.8324)

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Posted by: PariahX.6970

PariahX.6970

Suppose a total of 600 people are in the map (is 200/team a decent estimate?) that’s 180,000 condition stacks updating every second.

Goodness no try half that, maybe 300 per map but either way, still a decent number and point well made. I think for many simply not knowing the numbers they are dealing with compounds the frustration and we are left to guess how many of us are out there running around. IMO they should just lower the WvW map population caps to whatever they can do the calcs for in that worst case scenario, find a happy friendly way to rebalanced the world populations and then start doing the behind the scenes work get those numbers higher.

~Xylla~ [oG] on Ehmry Bay [PiXi]
Xyleia Luxuria / Sweet Little Agony / Morning Glory Wine / Precious Illusionz /
Near Fanstastica /Ocean at the End / Blue Eyed Hexe / Andro Queen / Indie Cindee . . .

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Posted by: Grimwolf.7163

Grimwolf.7163

If removing the AoE cap isn’t an option, maybe add back body blocking.
I thought it was full blown kittened when they announced that wouldn’t be in GW2.
Then it would be literally impossible to stack on top of each other. Even trying to stay excessively close would make it too difficult to move.