Why do you dislike PU mesmers

Why do you dislike PU mesmers

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Posted by: sephiroth.4217

sephiroth.4217

So basically I just want to know, why the trait Prismatic Understanding is so hated.

Is it the extra 1 second stealth?
Is it the regen, protection and aegis?

I mostly play for the new Free-For-All arena in PvP lobby.
….. And Elementalist.

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Posted by: Arius.7031

Arius.7031

Both. Let’s go over it, let’s say a mesmer has sword/pistol and scepter/torch. Let’s look at the skills he has to mitigate damage:

Shatter 3, decent length daze.
Shatter 4, decent length invuln.
Sword 2, invuln on low cd + very solid damage.
Pistol 5, daze.
Scepter 2, block.
Perma vigor on most builds due to critical infusion.
Clones (confusing the player, soaking up projectiles etc…).

Now add to that stealth skills (these are with pu in mind):

The prestige – 4s
Decoy – 4s
Veil – 3s (x2, if you run through it as soon as you put it out, wait for stealth to go down, you can run back through it for a 2nd stealth)
Mass invisi – 6s

Okay now, mesmer has one of the strongest heal-per-second heals in the game (ether feast). Also note that each second of stealth is 1 boon that lasts 3 seconds… that’s 20s of stealth straight (and prestige/decoy have decent cooldowns).

Factor all those defensive things into the following bit of knowledge: phantasms do not destealth you. You can spam phantasms for very strong sustained damage. You then alternate between spamming defensive cds and stealth. Also note that mesmer has medium hp so theye’re not as glassy even as eles or thieves, even if they held still.

Jorek/Etharin/Raylus
Darkhaven Commander
Co-leader of [Sold]

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Posted by: Qaelyn.7612

Qaelyn.7612

Um, listing a pile of skills on different weapons used in different builds puts you into “30/30/30/30/30” territory.

For all of how “uber” mesmers supposedly are, I see fewer of them than almost any other class in WvW. And don’t even get me started on how useless they are in large group fights.

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Posted by: Adula.3698

Adula.3698

They’re hated because of the build around stealthcapping mesmers. A Mesmer can create clones while in stealth, and those clones won’t force the Mesmer to become “revealed.” This means that illusionary berserker that hits for 5k can be spam cloned while the Mesmer afk’s in stealth.

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Posted by: Qaelyn.7612

Qaelyn.7612

This means that illusionary berserker that hits for 5k can be spam cloned while the Mesmer afk’s in stealth.

You can’t “clone” an illusionary berserker, and mesmers have no stealths that last more than a few seconds. The only way to get two berserkers is using the horrendous signet, which leaves you with no healing for something like 40 seconds.

These sorts of comments just make it clear that people are criticizing the class without even understanding it.

A defensive mesmer can use stealth to (mostly) evade fights. And they can be great 1v1 in the hands of a skilled opponent. But they are useless except as utility bots in groups.

Let’s see, you play warrior. Which class is it that there are more of than anything else in WvW? Which class is it that people run whole “trains” of? Hint: it’s not mesmer.

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Posted by: Waffler.1257

Waffler.1257

pu builds are very weak, stop trying to get us nerfed by spreading your lies. plz l2p, k thx.

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Posted by: Junkpile.7439

Junkpile.7439

pu builds are very weak, stop trying to get us nerfed by spreading your lies. plz l2p, k thx.

Everything is weak when you don’t know how to play.

Low quality trolling since launch
Seafarer’s Rest EotM grinch

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Posted by: zen.6091

zen.6091

Having played around with it quite a bit now, I’ve seen basically three variants of the build all with 20/20/30/0/0 for cleansing conflagration, deceptive evasion, and PU of course.

There’s the original blackwater condi bunker build, but is pretty easy to run away from with little burst damage and low mesmer mobility. This got a hurt a bit by the nerf to dodge clone destruction, but it’s still exceptionally difficult to kill with an huge array of defense skills coming from stealth, PU buffs, scepter, and staff.

Then there’s a scepter / torch + sword / pistol variant I’ve played and seen a few times that can be very good in 1v1s with ok condi pressure and a considerable burst if you can land duelist, magic bullet, prestige end, blurred frenzy and maybe a shatter all into the stun window.

Lastly there is a sword / torch + GS variant that loses some of the defense and condi pressure of the previous variant, but it has the go to button for clearing thieves out of shadow refuge, which is extremely useful roaming, and it can clear camps faster if you’re solo or duo roaming.

As for why people complain about it, the high prot uptime is probably a tad ridiculous, but it’s the only non-shatter build that has real synergy between all trait lines, a grandmaster trait, and an elite skill. Very few players are going to roll a mesmer for zerging either. It’s mostly a roaming class besides glamor utility, so chances are good that people playing a roaming mesmer have more experience roaming.

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Posted by: gennyt.3428

gennyt.3428

Decoy, veil, mass invis have long CDs (if you let a slowpoke Mes get two stealths off one veil without taking serious damage for it then you’re bad). PU isn’t really the problem on its own. The whole chaos trait line is full of stuff that can make condi builds over the top when combined with certain other trait lines that are still well within reach. Not even counting the survivability of Staff weap and of course certain sigils/runes. Then the downside to clones(them being squishy) can turn into a major advantage.

Whispers with meat.

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Posted by: Eloquence.5207

Eloquence.5207

I hate it because when I 2-2-2 with Thief, I don’t get a loot bag.

“L2P” according to pr0 Thieves
http://youtu.be/k0YDuSLXcX8?t=3m16s
See, Blinding Powder is nothing.

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Posted by: Dee Jay.2460

Dee Jay.2460

PU is basically the Mesmer equivalent of other cheesy builds you find on other classes.

PU is to Mesmers what.
D/P is to Thieves.
Healing Signet is to Warriors.
Spirits are to Rangers.
etc.

Maybe not overpowered in the grand scale of things but sort of cheap and cheesy to play. But most builds have something like that available to them.

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Posted by: Fermi.2409

Fermi.2409

pu builds are very weak, stop trying to get us nerfed by spreading your lies. plz l2p, k thx.

Everything is weak when you don’t know how to play.

Warrior.

HAF 912 | i7-3770k @ 4.5 GHz | MSI GTX 1070 GAMING 8GB | Gigabyte Z77X-D3H
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Posted by: godz raiden.2631

godz raiden.2631

I think people just get angry because it’s generally harder to instagib a PU mesmer than is a zerker ele or thief or something. Some builds require you to play more cautiously or patiently, PU mesmer is one of them. Honestly, fighting a good PU mesmer is generally fun for me because it gives me a chance to see how well I can pay attention to the boons on my target and react accordingly, all while paying attention to phantasms and dodging the heavy damage that could potentially take me down within a second or two. Inexperienced players will struggle against PU mesmers, but experienced players will react more appropriately.

I think if you’re having a problem with PU mesmers then you should make one yourself, and see how it plays out. Once you get used to playing a class with a common/favorite build, you’ll understand it considerably better, and you’ll most likely find yourself losing fights to it less than you did before.

Godz Raiden (Thief)
Maguuma

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Posted by: Maskaganda.2043

Maskaganda.2043

PU builds are mostly just a crutch, makes any bad player look half-decent because it takes a while to kill him. I fear other shatter/phantasm builds alot more.

Tchuu Tchuu I’m a Train – Gandara
engie roaming vids: http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9NnXVfY4vRU1F-X7b1Oorw/videos

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Posted by: Mizu.9387

Mizu.9387

I dislike PU, not as much for the build in itself, but rather the stealth system. It’s crippling and frustrating to get someone down to 10% health and they stealth…
All of a sudden, none of skills will hit, since you need a target. You know he’s RIGHT THERE, you can fire your auto or whatever in that direction, but nothing will hit. Meanwhile, you have clones and phantasms pounding you with damage which makes stealth even worse. Theives that stealth, gives both him and you an opportunity to breath, PU’s don’t.

Anyway, as someone said above, they take a bit longer to kill. Nothing OP about them, just annoying build.

Sif Urkraft

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Posted by: Arius.7031

Arius.7031

Um, listing a pile of skills on different weapons used in different builds puts you into “30/30/30/30/30” territory.

For all of how “uber” mesmers supposedly are, I see fewer of them than almost any other class in WvW. And don’t even get me started on how useless they are in large group fights.

If you’re referring to me, I listed one of the most common weapon combos (sword/pistol, scepter/torch) for a PU Mesmer, as well as 1 trait that is super common among pretty much every Mesmer. I did list 3 utilities… that virtually every PU Mesmer takes, because to not take them would waste so much stealth potential. Everything else had nothing to do with traits, so your post makes no sense.

PU Mesmer builds are the single most overpowered builds for dueling in the entire game. OFC, there are weak PU Mesmer builds, just like there are weak p/d plex builds for thieves, if you build like an idiot of course you’re gonna have a bad build. If a moderately intelligent person players a PU Mesmer an a moderately intelligent manner, they will be able to keep up with the best members of any other class.

Jorek/Etharin/Raylus
Darkhaven Commander
Co-leader of [Sold]

(edited by Arius.7031)

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Posted by: Junkpile.7439

Junkpile.7439

Any ultimate FotM cheese condi bunker build links? Maybe i start to play mesmer again. My super dps shatterer mesmer did die whole time so i rage quited.

Low quality trolling since launch
Seafarer’s Rest EotM grinch

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Posted by: King Amadaeus.8619

King Amadaeus.8619

They are hated because people do not take the time to roll one and learn the weaknesses….And mainly because people have given up on thief nerfs/or play thieves and are tired of losing to mesmers.

Beyond that is just nubs who lost to a mesmer and want to cry.

Mag Server Leader

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Posted by: Fuzzion.2504

Fuzzion.2504

Even mesmers are now worried that PU mesmers are giving the class a bad name.

Im sure they are on the chopping board for nerfs.

Fuzzionx [SF]
Guest member of [LOVE]
JQ official Prime Minister

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Posted by: quercus.9261

quercus.9261

PU mesmers slot alot of stealth and ppl hate stealth. I don’t blame them standing there or flailing about waiting for an unseen opponent to unload on them makes for bad gameplay.

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Posted by: King Amadaeus.8619

King Amadaeus.8619

Even mesmers are now worried that PU mesmers are giving the class a bad name.

Im sure they are on the chopping board for nerfs.

Doubtful, just because people post on these forums doesn’t mean that its true or even the majority according to ANET.

Also we have all been told time and time again that WvW is balanced around PVE, and since PU doesn’t affect PVE that much (why do you think condi hasn’t been nerfed?), I would be surprised to see any relevant nerfs to PU. (READ: Not saying it won’t ever get nerfed, just saying it won’t get nerfed to make it less viable; remember when they “nerfed” perma stealth thieves?!)

PU mesmers slot alot of stealth and ppl hate stealth. I don’t blame them standing there or flailing about waiting for an unseen opponent to unload on them makes for bad gameplay.

Yes and no (Yes many hate stealth)….The single biggest problem with this game is that it isn’t really made for hardcore PvP’ers (not the best term but applicable for this explanation). There are many hardcore players that still play…However there are MANY more of, and this game is even tailor-made for the “casual”.

This game is casual in every way, it is made so that you can “pop-in” at will, play a bit and then leave, or you can grind it all day if you so choose. But make no mistake it is made for a casual player-base. Many people will even tell you that it is more of a “starter” MMO than anything else.

With ALL of that in mind, what you have here and 90% of the time when people cry nerf: Casuals who aren’t willing to learn a counter, and instead look to Mother ANET to come with the nerf wand and “fix” the situation. Stealth isn’t going away, if anything more classes will get more and more access to it.

It is just better at this point for players to take a little of the responsibility on themselves to learn to play the game and learn to beat obstacles. Like I said before even when ANET does drop the nerf-hammer it usually only ends up being something inconsequential to the trait/skill and people just move on to the next “flavor of the month” complaint.

Mag Server Leader

(edited by King Amadaeus.8619)

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Posted by: RyuDragnier.9476

RyuDragnier.9476

PU mesmers slot alot of stealth and ppl hate stealth. I don’t blame them standing there or flailing about waiting for an unseen opponent to unload on them makes for bad gameplay.

My problem with their stealth here is that it BYPASSES revealed. I know what you’re thinking, how do you know? I threw down a stealth disruptor trap on a Mesmer and pulled him into it. He could still stealth despite that. THAT is overpowered, to where something that’s supposed to stop stealth (I use it to gank thieves who have been annoying me with constant camp flipping) will not effect them.

[hS]
PvE Main – Zar Poisonclaw – Daredevil
WvW Main – Ghost Mistcaller – Herald

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Posted by: Razamatazz.9628

Razamatazz.9628

PU mesmers slot alot of stealth and ppl hate stealth. I don’t blame them standing there or flailing about waiting for an unseen opponent to unload on them makes for bad gameplay.

My problem with their stealth here is that it BYPASSES revealed. I know what you’re thinking, how do you know? I threw down a stealth disruptor trap on a Mesmer and pulled him into it. He could still stealth despite that. THAT is overpowered, to where something that’s supposed to stop stealth (I use it to gank thieves who have been annoying me with constant camp flipping) will not effect them.

I would report that, I use a PU type build when in small groups and I can say with 100% certainty that it reveals you, because it happens to me.

Lydeah – 80 Mesmer
Lorynne – 80 Guardian
[PB] – NSP

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Posted by: King Amadaeus.8619

King Amadaeus.8619

PU mesmers slot alot of stealth and ppl hate stealth. I don’t blame them standing there or flailing about waiting for an unseen opponent to unload on them makes for bad gameplay.

My problem with their stealth here is that it BYPASSES revealed. I know what you’re thinking, how do you know? I threw down a stealth disruptor trap on a Mesmer and pulled him into it. He could still stealth despite that. THAT is overpowered, to where something that’s supposed to stop stealth (I use it to gank thieves who have been annoying me with constant camp flipping) will not effect them.

Only Decoy bypasses Revealed.

Mag Server Leader

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Posted by: Fuzzion.2504

Fuzzion.2504

Interesting arguments.

At the end of the day , there will always be cheesy builds. Almost every class has it except for rangers. Eles used to have their bunker builds but we do very little damage with that cheesy builds. Then u had necros,thieves,etc.

At the end of the day, balancing is very hard. Just that some cheesy builds are Over powered and im sure Anet is watching the mesmer as we speak.

Fuzzionx [SF]
Guest member of [LOVE]
JQ official Prime Minister

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Posted by: WhiteRose.6934

WhiteRose.6934

PU builds are mostly just a crutch, makes any bad player look half-decent.

Correct.

Even mesmers are now worried that PU mesmers are giving the class a bad name.

Very Correct.

Genesis Theory [GT] – Henge of Denravi

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Posted by: Roe.3679

Roe.3679

It’s because a mesmer can float around in stealth while having defensive boons while they have phantasms still dealing damage. If you stick around and don’t play the weaknesses you’re fighting a lot of shadows.

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Posted by: King Amadaeus.8619

King Amadaeus.8619

It’s because a mesmer can float around in stealth while having defensive boons while they have phantasms still dealing damage. If you stick around and don’t play the weaknesses you’re fighting a lot of shadows.

AoE or range the phantasms (prevents you from picking up unnecessary conditions), then press the player (kiting with range is best IMO). Most of them are susceptible to conditions once they have exhausted the few condi-clears they have.

The mistake most people make is they ignore everything but the player and they try to “wait out the stealth” of the player. If you can take out the phantasms you take away a large part (varying with builds) of the Mesmer’s damage output.

If all that fails, run away, its a Mesmer it won’t catch you 90% of the time.

Mag Server Leader

(edited by King Amadaeus.8619)

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Posted by: Arius.7031

Arius.7031

AoE or range the phantasms (prevents you from picking up unnecessary conditions), then press the player (kiting with range is best IMO). Most of them are susceptible to conditions once they have exhausted the few condi-clears they have.

You’re demanding that people specifically build around fighting pu mesmers in order to counter them. A lot of builds do not incorporate much/any range/aoes. Further conditions are something you either do or do not have, a power class can’t just swap in conditions in order to beat a mesmer… you’ll do no damage. And most players are power builds.

The mistake most people make is they ignore everything but the player and they try to “wait out the stealth” of the player. If you can take out the phantasms you take away a large part (varying with builds) of the Mesmer’s damage output.

That helps but that takes some pressure off the enemy player, allowing him to dps you until you switch focus to him and then stealth away. You’re taking a situation where the PU mesmer basically sits there and does nothing while you kill his phantasms… But most pu mesmers either have strong condi or hybrid damage on their own beside their phantasms.

If all that fails, run away, its a Mesmer it won’t catch you 90% of the time.

So you’re arguing that we shouldn’t dislike PU mesmers because we can run away from them? Also, Mesmer has good burst movement capability (most mesmers use blink and sword thus giving them some decent mobility and ability to immob enemies). The only classes that are basically guaranteed to escape are wars/thieves.

P.S. I’ve played a PU mesmer for hundreds of hours in solo roaming/havoc so don’t pretend that I’m just another person who couldn’t be bothered to learn how to fight PU mesmer.

Jorek/Etharin/Raylus
Darkhaven Commander
Co-leader of [Sold]

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Posted by: King Amadaeus.8619

King Amadaeus.8619

1.
You’re demanding that people specifically build around fighting pu mesmers in order to counter them. A lot of builds do not incorporate much/any range/aoes. Further conditions are something you either do or do not have, a power class can’t just swap in conditions in order to beat a mesmer… you’ll do no damage. And most players are power builds.

2.
That helps but that takes some pressure off the enemy player, allowing him to dps you until you switch focus to him and then stealth away. You’re taking a situation where the PU mesmer basically sits there and does nothing while you kill his phantasms… But most pu mesmers either have strong condi or hybrid damage on their own beside their phantasms.

3.
So you’re arguing that we shouldn’t dislike PU mesmers because we can run away from them? Also, Mesmer has good burst movement capability (most mesmers use blink and sword thus giving them some decent mobility and ability to immob enemies). The only classes that are basically guaranteed to escape are wars/thieves.

4.
P.S. I’ve played a PU mesmer for hundreds of hours in solo roaming/havoc so don’t pretend that I’m just another person who couldn’t be bothered to learn how to fight PU mesmer.

1.
-not demanding anything just telling you what I have seen to be EZmode on winning. When you make your build, do you not contemplate at all what kind of enemies you might face whilst roaming???? Or do you just throw something together and then get mad when it doesn’t “PWN”? I also find it ironic you point out “not many people run this setup”, but then still think PU is overpowered I guess?
-Who does not incorporate any range or AoE? Bad players, or players who have forced themselves into rock/paper/scissors.
-No idea why you’re on about conditions here…I said range them to not pick up conditions…DID NOT say anything about using condi…Also ironic you think most people are power based.

2.
-Every class has some kind of damage output illustrating what types PU mesmers have doesn’t really make a point beyond “every class has some kind of damage output”…yes if you are full glass (IE: low survivability) you will probably die to a PU mesmer before you can kill the clones (AKA: Attrition) assuming you do not have the aforementioned skillset from point 1. If you have enough range/rangeAoE/burst AoE then you have a fine shot at killing the mesmer.

3.
-I frankly do not care what you like or dislike, I am saying that I would treat a PU mesmer I couldn’t beat the same I would treat a thief…I would walk away. I wouldn’t wait until I had 500 health and then run for my pixally life….Learn to judge a fight, learn to know when its winnable or not, make an exit strategy if you need to. Me personally I rarely run, but that is more because I like to see how things play out.

PS I like how you mold the Mesmer into which ever situation suits your argument. In one instance its condi dmg that is the prob, then in another the mesmer now has sword to immoblock you….

4.
Gratz? But I probably won’t be the last to tell you that doing something for _ amount of time does not an expert make. Sure that means you understand the mechanics of the class, but you could be godawful at playing the toon and just have enough gumption to keep slamming your proverbial flat forehead into the wall over and over…..

I would invite you to try something, the next time you are dueling some kid, and they start the “QQ PU NUB”, just flip the trait off. Then reduel. I promise you, if you are half decent at playing your toon the difference in the outcome will be negligible.

9/10’s the outcome was rock/paper/scissors to begin with and predetermined. PU is a crutch, its not a crutch for bad mesmers for the most part, it is a crutch for bad players to point a finger at when asked “why did you lose”.

Now I will not sit here and act like I enjoy fighting PU mesmers, but I lump them in with the P/D thieves, Hambow Warrs, etc of the world….Sure they take a little work to kill, but still VERY killable given the right setup.

Mag Server Leader

(edited by King Amadaeus.8619)

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Posted by: Simonoly.4352

Simonoly.4352

In the context of Mesmer build repertoire, PU is very very strong. Compared to shatter, lockdown and even traditional phantasm builds, PU builds are easy to master and are very effective (especially power variants).

However, compared to other classes and builds that exist in the game, the relative strength of PU is grossly over-exaggerated. PU condi Mesmers in particular are weak sauce compared to perplex Engis, S/S Warrior and P/D Thief. Condi PU Mesmer is so easy to ignore that its just kind of sad when they keep chasing you.

Gandara

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Posted by: Arius.7031

Arius.7031

1.
-Yes I do contemplate said things, but that’s the problem… I shouldn’t have to build a specific way just to beat a PU Mesmer. In fact, on power builds with ranged weapons, you have almost a 0 chance of beating a PU Mesmer. Condi builds, granted, have a fair chance.
-This isn’t true in the slightest, at all. It’s just an assertion with no supporting evidence whatsoever.
-Lol, let’s see what PAST king has to say on the matter:

Most of them are susceptible to conditions once they have exhausted the few condi-clears they have.

The one legitimately good piece of advice you gave was to use condis… which many builds either don’t have significant access to or have access to weak condis.

2.
-I hear you’re a good player, so I’m going to presume that’s true for a moment. Have you ever considered that you’re not just way better than everyone else, and that in reality your suggestions mostly work because YOU’RE skilled enough to pull them off? I’m approaching this from a “these two people are close to evenly skilled” standpoint. If you’re honestly telling me that an average power based build player has a good shot at being a PU Mesmer, you’re literally so good that you’re clueless.

There’s a reason Mesmer (and PU Mesmer in particular) is the go to 1vx class/build. I know many people (including myself), who routinely win 1v3+ without even being that good (when I seriously played my mesmer maybe 2 months ago, I wasn’t a very good player but still won a boat load of outnumbered fights).

3.
-Okay then why are you in this thread? We’re all discussing why we like/dislike PU Mesmer. If you’re not arguing against a position, then what exactly ARE you doing? Just giving tips on how to beat PU Mesmers because you’re an altruistic kind of guy?

I never mentioned condis being OP from Mesmers that I can recall, I’ve been discussing condi/hybrid PU Mesmers (the most common kind of PU Mesmers). Sword (as you well know), has so much utility that even a lot of condi builds take it, and it’s massively powerful on hybrid builds.

4.
-Right, that would be because PU only makes an already broken segment of Mesmer builds (phantasms) even more broken. It’s a huge deal in and of itself, but it’s more about how it interacts with other already broken aspects of the class that makes it especially OP.

-I can agree. PU Mesmers have too few counters (condis), and even those counters are not as hopeless as say a condi engi Vs. a condi necro. They also require much less skill to be super powerful with, which as you know is what people really mean when they say something is “OP”. They mean it’s either too good period or too good for how easy it is.

Jorek/Etharin/Raylus
Darkhaven Commander
Co-leader of [Sold]

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Posted by: Samhayn.2385

Samhayn.2385

PU is annoying because it gave mesmers a true escape mechanism that works with a shatter build. Its use with condition build has more to do with the current condition meta more then anything else really.


It was 2 vs 20 but its ok we got’em both!

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Posted by: King Amadaeus.8619

King Amadaeus.8619

In the context of Mesmer build repertoire, PU is very very strong. Compared to shatter, lockdown and even traditional phantasm builds, PU builds are easy to master and are very effective (especially power variants).

However, compared to other classes and builds that exist in the game, the relative strength of PU is grossly over-exaggerated. PU condi Mesmers in particular are weak sauce compared to perplex Engis, S/S Warrior and P/D Thief. Condi PU Mesmer is so easy to ignore its kind of sad when they keep chasing you.

Ugh…Words are hard…I should have just said this…This is really a great summation of the situation.

Well said, and 150% agreed.

Mag Server Leader

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Posted by: Ross Biddle.2367

Ross Biddle.2367

I hate PU Mesmers because I always hear people complaining about PU Mesmers, so naturally I hate on, and complain about them too. Any time I see a Mesmer use stealth I know he’s running PU, and since there are conditions on me he’s got to be some sort of bunker condition guy. What’s crazy is how his sword 2 hits for like 5k damage on top of that. It’s insane! I just dont get how they can have it all and get away with it! Unbeatable, and no one should have to put in that much effort to overcome something that’s so cheezy eazy.

Someone once posted this in regards to Warriors, but I think the devs have been buffing mesmers so much since launch that now the warrior blood has flowed right into Mesmers. Like a Dev blood transfusion or something.

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Why do you dislike PU mesmers

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Posted by: LightningBlaze.4913

LightningBlaze.4913

I think people just get angry because it’s generally harder to instagib a PU mesmer than is a zerker ele or thief or something. Some builds require you to play more cautiously or patiently, PU mesmer is one of them. Honestly, fighting a good PU mesmer is generally fun for me because it gives me a chance to see how well I can pay attention to the boons on my target and react accordingly, all while paying attention to phantasms and dodging the heavy damage that could potentially take me down within a second or two. Inexperienced players will struggle against PU mesmers, but experienced players will react more appropriately.

I think if you’re having a problem with PU mesmers then you should make one yourself, and see how it plays out. Once you get used to playing a class with a common/favorite build, you’ll understand it considerably better, and you’ll most likely find yourself losing fights to it less than you did before.

Coming from a thief that also abuse the broken stealth mechanic. There is no skill involved in your described gameplay. You just have stealth to recover.

Heidia- The elementalist is the #1 most OP profession in this game since beta!

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Posted by: King Amadaeus.8619

King Amadaeus.8619

1.

2.
-I hear you’re a good player, so I’m going to presume that’s true for a moment. Have you ever considered that you’re not just way better than everyone else

Every single day.

In all seriousness, the stuff I am saying is what was done to me while playing PU mesmer…And I was like: “WTF, that guy just wrecked me” or sometimes I would be able to stealth long enough to get my bearings and restart the engagement. Then I applied the same concepts while playing my other toons against PU mesmers, because IMO it was very effective.

Mag Server Leader

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Posted by: Arius.7031

Arius.7031

You added some to your post, I’ll reply to your additions here.

Gratz? But I probably won’t be the last to tell you that doing something for _ amount of time does not an expert make. Sure that means you understand the mechanics of the class, but you could be godawful at playing the toon and just have enough gumption to keep slamming your proverbial flat forehead into the wall over and over….."

True, but I brought it up specifically to say I understand the mechanics, nothing more. I wasn’t saying I was good, I was saying that I have enough experience with Mesmer that I know their weaknesses, not that I’m so good with Mesmer that I can beat them on any class or something.

Now I will not sit here and act like I enjoy fighting PU mesmers, but I lump them in with the P/D thieves, Hambow Warrs, etc of the world….Sure they take a little work to kill, but still VERY killable given the right setup.

P/D thieves I agree on vehemently. They’re just as bad, and in many ways worse than PU Mesmers (I still think overall PU Mesmer is worse, because at least P/D thieves wreck themselves if they’re reflected and are just very glassy in general, whereas PU is fairly tanky due to boon spam, defensive abilities, and higher HP of Mesmer). Saying that there are other imbalanced parts of this game does not combat the notion that PU Mesmers are also imbalanced. further, Hambow Warrs aren’t exactly great in duels/roaming anymore. Most builds can easily beat them due to the telegraphed nature of hammer attacks and the 1-trick-pony nature of LB (watch for the arcing arrow, stay out of the fire).

Jorek/Etharin/Raylus
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Posted by: King Amadaeus.8619

King Amadaeus.8619

You added some to your post, I’ll reply to your additions here.

Gratz? But I probably won’t be the last to tell you that doing something for _ amount of time does not an expert make. Sure that means you understand the mechanics of the class, but you could be godawful at playing the toon and just have enough gumption to keep slamming your proverbial flat forehead into the wall over and over….."

True, but I brought it up specifically to say I understand the mechanics, nothing more. I wasn’t saying I was good, I was saying that I have enough experience with Mesmer that I know their weaknesses, not that I’m so good with Mesmer that I can beat them on any class or something.

Now I will not sit here and act like I enjoy fighting PU mesmers, but I lump them in with the P/D thieves, Hambow Warrs, etc of the world….Sure they take a little work to kill, but still VERY killable given the right setup.

P/D thieves I agree on vehemently. They’re just as bad, and in many ways worse than PU Mesmers (I still think overall PU Mesmer is worse, because at least P/D thieves wreck themselves if they’re reflected and are just very glassy in general, whereas PU is fairly tanky due to boon spam, defensive abilities, and higher HP of Mesmer). Saying that there are other imbalanced parts of this game does not combat the notion that PU Mesmers are also imbalanced. further, Hambow Warrs aren’t exactly great in duels/roaming anymore. Most builds can easily beat them due to the telegraphed nature of hammer attacks and the 1-trick-pony nature of LB (watch for the arcing arrow, stay out of the fire).

I defer my reply to the great Simonoly and his sage wisdom:

In the context of Mesmer build repertoire, PU is very very strong. Compared to shatter, lockdown and even traditional phantasm builds, PU builds are easy to master and are very effective (especially power variants).

However, compared to other classes and builds that exist in the game, the relative strength of PU is grossly over-exaggerated. PU condi Mesmers in particular are weak sauce compared to perplex Engis, S/S Warrior and P/D Thief. Condi PU Mesmer is so easy to ignore that its just kind of sad when they keep chasing you.

I will also add I would trade my PU and mesmer defensive line traits for my thieves defensive line traits….THEN THERE WOULD BE CRYING, of that I have no doubt.

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Posted by: Handin.4032

Handin.4032

Even mesmers are now worried that PU mesmers are giving the class a bad name.

Im sure they are on the chopping board for nerfs.

I fully agree with this. I’ve been playing mesmer as my main since the game came out, and since they changed PU to its current form, I noticed one main thing: So many new mesmers suddenly started blindly using 20/20/30 just for PU. I’ve had to explain so many times why a phantasm build doesn’t work well with 20/20/30, and have had that mesmer say stuff like “but how do you live without PU!” PU is mostly used as a crutch, and they all tend to use the SAME 3 utilities (at least they use blink/decoy+MI). It makes it very easy to predict, and they tend to not delve deeper into knowing the class. The reason, imo, that it is starting to give the profession a bad name is because there are plenty of mesmers who say stuff like “But we NEED PU to survive!” Which is entirely not true.

In the end, I don’t dislike the trait itself, however the fact it is fairly unbalanced makes newer mesmers just blindly use one trait set and then claim they need it to survive and depend entirely on using PU to be competitive. It makes mesmer seem like a shallow class. However, there are still many great mesmers (some who use PU, some who don’t) despite this who endure the nerfs mesmer takes and adapt.

TC Golden Dolyak – [DOLY]
Mesmer – FURY
Rank 55 – Bunker Engi, Top 300

Why do you dislike PU mesmers

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Posted by: Arius.7031

Arius.7031

I’ll have to disagree with your friend. I don’t think it’s overexaggerated, and I don’t think the examples he lists are particularly good either (save for P/D thief). Engi is hard countered by condis, easily controlled by CC spam (lack of stability/stun breaks in general), and has exceedingly weak condi application outside of grenades/bombs/toolkit.

Putting that aside, even if they were as OP, they’re really hard to play (I dare say, engi is the 2nd hardest class in this game to play effectively, perhaps 1st due to 0 cooldown for kit swaps). PU Mesmer cannot say the same, it’s relatively quite easy to play as you don’t have to worry about shatters as much, and it’s naturally tanky and thus much more room for error. It’s more about skill→strength, if something is super OP but you have to be like the best player on the planet to realize that potential, it’s not so bad compared to something that’s really op and really easy to use.

Jorek/Etharin/Raylus
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Posted by: Xavi.6591

Xavi.6591

A PU Mesmer can’t kill you if you don’t fight him.

Fantasme Bloodwen [R.I.P. Mesmer] | Andi Runi [Warrior] | Bonedoggle [Necro] | Zooerasty [Ranger]
Angry Intent [AI] | Yak’s Bend |

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Posted by: Simonoly.4352

Simonoly.4352

I will also add I would trade my PU and mesmer defensive line traits for my thieves defensive line traits….THEN THERE WOULD BE CRYING, of that I have no doubt.

Could you imagine if Mesmers could remove a condition for every second in stealth? Oh god the horror! Makes me feel all queazy just thinking about it.

Gandara

Why do you dislike PU mesmers

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Posted by: King Amadaeus.8619

King Amadaeus.8619

I’ll have to disagree with your friend. I don’t think it’s overexaggerated, and I don’t think the examples he lists are particularly good either (save for P/D thief). Engi is hard countered by condis, easily controlled by CC spam (lack of stability/stun breaks in general), and has exceedingly weak condi application outside of grenades/bombs/toolkit.

But what if I do not have any condis or CC spam??? Are you telling me I have to build for that to beat the engis?

And if you run the right runes (no not perplexity) and trait engis can pretty much spam condis and that is just running tool kit with P/S. I would take my engi over my PU burst mes any day in a 1v1.

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Why do you dislike PU mesmers

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Posted by: King Amadaeus.8619

King Amadaeus.8619

Even mesmers are now worried that PU mesmers are giving the class a bad name.

Im sure they are on the chopping board for nerfs.

I fully agree with this. I’ve been playing mesmer as my main since the game came out, and since they changed PU to its current form, I noticed one main thing: So many new mesmers suddenly started blindly using 20/20/30 just for PU. I’ve had to explain so many times why a phantasm build doesn’t work well with 20/20/30, and have had that mesmer say stuff like “but how do you live without PU!” PU is mostly used as a crutch, and they all tend to use the SAME 3 utilities (at least they use blink/decoy+MI). It makes it very easy to predict, and they tend to not delve deeper into knowing the class. The reason, imo, that it is starting to give the profession a bad name is because there are plenty of mesmers who say stuff like “But we NEED PU to survive!” Which is entirely not true.

In the end, I don’t dislike the trait itself, however the fact it is fairly unbalanced makes newer mesmers just blindly use one trait set and then claim they need it to survive and depend entirely on using PU to be competitive. It makes mesmer seem like a shallow class. However, there are still many great mesmers (some who use PU, some who don’t) despite this who endure the nerfs mesmer takes and adapt.

Well if we start throwing out nerfs everytime noobs say noobish things, then warrior and thief are absolutely kittenED.

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Posted by: Arius.7031

Arius.7031

I’ll have to disagree with your friend. I don’t think it’s overexaggerated, and I don’t think the examples he lists are particularly good either (save for P/D thief). Engi is hard countered by condis, easily controlled by CC spam (lack of stability/stun breaks in general), and has exceedingly weak condi application outside of grenades/bombs/toolkit.

But what if I do not have any condis or CC spam??? Are you telling me I have to build for that to beat the engis?

And if you run the right runes (no not perplexity) and trait engis can pretty much spam condis and that is just running tool kit with P/S. I would take my engi over my PU burst mes any day in a 1v1.

I didn’t say my list was exhaustive, but virtually every class/build has access to SOME cc via their utilities. Condi damage that’s a correct point, I’m was merely listing some counters to plex condi engi, not all counters.

As to spamming condis with p/s and tool kit, you have access to only a few condis… poison on pistol 2, confusion/blind of pistol 3, bleed/cripple (that’s exceedingly hard to land I might add, unless you lure people into it with tool kit 5) on tool kit 2, and tool kit 3 confusion. Most engis will passively proc burning from a master trait in explosives, and lots use rune of torment. Even then, that is exceedingly WEAK condi application for a condi applying class. The auto attack bleed from scepter lasts 3 seconds longer at base (2 vs 5 seconds) and isn’t a projectile that can be intercepted… a condi necro will literally apply more damage condis by auto attack/signet of spite.

Jorek/Etharin/Raylus
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Posted by: Straegen.2938

Straegen.2938

The reasons are very obvious… they are incredibly strong in small fight situations. Unlike thieves they don’t have to get in melee range to drop a rip ton of damage. In 1v1 situations it is like fighting two players. A player cannot ignore the phantasms nor can they ignore the mesmer. Good ones are nearly impossible to burst with more escape than D/P thieves.

I will also add I would trade my PU and mesmer defensive line traits for my thieves defensive line traits….THEN THERE WOULD BE CRYING, of that I have no doubt.

Could you imagine if Mesmers could remove a condition for every second in stealth? Oh god the horror! Makes me feel all queazy just thinking about it.

If only thieves had that ability! They can remove 1 every 3 seconds but under any kind of control pressure that does not keep up.

Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”

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Posted by: King Amadaeus.8619

King Amadaeus.8619

I’ll have to disagree with your friend. I don’t think it’s overexaggerated, and I don’t think the examples he lists are particularly good either (save for P/D thief). Engi is hard countered by condis, easily controlled by CC spam (lack of stability/stun breaks in general), and has exceedingly weak condi application outside of grenades/bombs/toolkit.

But what if I do not have any condis or CC spam??? Are you telling me I have to build for that to beat the engis?

And if you run the right runes (no not perplexity) and trait engis can pretty much spam condis and that is just running tool kit with P/S. I would take my engi over my PU burst mes any day in a 1v1.

I didn’t say my list was exhaustive, but virtually every class/build has access to SOME cc via their utilities. Condi damage that’s a correct point, I’m was merely listing some counters to plex condi engi, not all counters.

As to spamming condis with p/s and tool kit, you have access to only a few condis… poison on pistol 2, confusion/blind of pistol 3, bleed/cripple (that’s exceedingly hard to land I might add, unless you lure people into it with tool kit 5) on tool kit 2, and tool kit 3 confusion. Most engis will passively proc burning from a master trait in explosives, and lots use rune of torment. Even then, that is exceedingly WEAK condi application for a condi applying class. The auto attack bleed from scepter lasts 3 seconds longer at base (2 vs 5 seconds) and isn’t a projectile that can be intercepted… a condi necro will literally apply more damage condis by auto attack/signet of spite.

You came close to naming everything but missed a few key items. And yeah Necros are King of conditions no disputing that. My engi melts people by the second rotation usually.

The thing about it is that mesmers do have inherit access to more condis, but the engi can strangely enough spam them faster (again if built/traited/runed/sigiled correctly). Also with mesmer you are counting on block to trigger your torment, RNG (Chaos storm) and clones to build condis, a channel skill (Confusing Images) with a huge tell, and probably the worst skill in the game: Phantasmal Mage which hits probably 30% of the time.

Let me be clear about one thing for sure, this is in no way saying condi mesmer isn’t viable…It is full of cheese and effective, however it is just to say that condi engis seem to drop conditions on enemies in a much faster burst than Mesmers with fewer restrictions on which conditions get placed in what order. (Which is VERY important when you are trying to burn up an enemy’s cleanse).

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Posted by: Arius.7031

Arius.7031

I’ll have to disagree with your friend. I don’t think it’s overexaggerated, and I don’t think the examples he lists are particularly good either (save for P/D thief). Engi is hard countered by condis, easily controlled by CC spam (lack of stability/stun breaks in general), and has exceedingly weak condi application outside of grenades/bombs/toolkit.

But what if I do not have any condis or CC spam??? Are you telling me I have to build for that to beat the engis?

And if you run the right runes (no not perplexity) and trait engis can pretty much spam condis and that is just running tool kit with P/S. I would take my engi over my PU burst mes any day in a 1v1.

I didn’t say my list was exhaustive, but virtually every class/build has access to SOME cc via their utilities. Condi damage that’s a correct point, I’m was merely listing some counters to plex condi engi, not all counters.

As to spamming condis with p/s and tool kit, you have access to only a few condis… poison on pistol 2, confusion/blind of pistol 3, bleed/cripple (that’s exceedingly hard to land I might add, unless you lure people into it with tool kit 5) on tool kit 2, and tool kit 3 confusion. Most engis will passively proc burning from a master trait in explosives, and lots use rune of torment. Even then, that is exceedingly WEAK condi application for a condi applying class. The auto attack bleed from scepter lasts 3 seconds longer at base (2 vs 5 seconds) and isn’t a projectile that can be intercepted… a condi necro will literally apply more damage condis by auto attack/signet of spite.

You came close to naming everything but missed a few key items. And yeah Necros are King of conditions no disputing that. My engi melts people by the second rotation usually.

The thing about it is that mesmers do have inherit access to more condis, but the engi can strangely enough spam them faster (again if built/traited/runed/sigiled correctly). Also with mesmer you are counting on block to trigger your torment, RNG (Chaos storm) and clones to build condis, a channel skill (Confusing Images) with a huge tell, and probably the worst skill in the game: Phantasmal Mage which hits probably 30% of the time.

Let me be clear about one thing for sure, this is in no way saying condi mesmer isn’t viable…It is full of cheese and effective, however it is just to say that condi engis seem to drop conditions on enemies in a much faster burst than Mesmers with fewer restrictions on which conditions get placed in what order. (Which is VERY important when you are trying to burn up an enemy’s cleanse).

Well engi can definitely apply a lot of condis if rng is kind, especially with grenades (grenade skill 2, if traited properly, can apply 9 bleeds if all grenades hit with grenadier) but I don’t really see how they can apply more condis than a phantasm pu mesmer. If you’re looking at standard sword/pistol and scepter/torch, that is a LOT of bleeds from iduelists, torment from scepter 2 obv, confusion from scepter 3, burning from prestige, and confusion from phantasmal mage.

The main weakness of non-grenade engis is lack of bleed (imo). Bleed is the bread and butter of 90% of condi builds, but with non-grenade engi, bleed just isn’t even a serious consideration, it’s more of a “oh look that’s nice, I have 3 bleeds yay” thing (as opposed to the utterly ridiculous stacks of bleeds that necros/rangers and phantasm mesmers can put out).

Anyways the main reason why I think plex engi < pu mesmer is stealth. Stealth is a very, very powerful things for just about any task (cept zerging unless you can apply it to the zerg, which mesmers can with veil obv). Stealth is incredibely powerful in 1v1 and 1vx situations, ridiculously powerful. It’s how Mesmer can do everything engi can do (- the blocks of course), but can also stealth (and boonspam but that’s incidental).

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Why do you dislike PU mesmers

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Posted by: roamzero.9486

roamzero.9486

12k of (easy to apply) Torment damage on an 8s CD.