Guild Wars 2

I notice there’s no word on when (in the leveling process, I mean) the unlocks are happening. And, guys, it’s almost a guarantee at this point that this is going to be released with Heart of Thorns. Otherwise they’ll have to patch the world to rely on the hero points system first. Something else to note: traits are locked to tiers. So if you don’t like any of the three master tier traits, but you need a grandmaster, you can’t slot an adept trait in the master tier. (This is important to me right now as I frequently use traits that aren’t in the selected tier.)

Also, guys, this is totally something that was requested in the Living Story CDI. If anyone still thinks they’re not utilizing the CDI threads, you’re not paying attention.

Pdavis, I’m pretty sure the bad was mine. I caught it on a second read-through, I just had a reading comprehension fail. I didn’t mean to sound all, “YOU USED THE WRONG WORD!” at you.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Thats a horrifying prospect.

If the goal was to make the process MORE grind-y and less fun over all then yeah, make it a bar to fill.

If they’ve been listening though, and I do mean REALLY listening to what we’ve suggested for Trait revamp they’d know that a common theme that we’ve expressed here has been to make obtaining the traits actually meaningful.

make the things we need to do to get them have something to do with the actual traits themselves AND (this is the most important suggestion) make sure they are level appropriate. Add to this a lowered cost for purchasing the traits for those that want to buy them outright and I think most (not all), but most people that have been at these threads would be satisfied.

Am i wrong in any of those 3 key changes being the most wanted from a lot of people in here?

Here’s the thing… at this point, I honestly don’t even care about if earning traits has anything to do with what the trait does, or what profession it is, or anything.

The only thing that matters to me is that it’s not ripping me off, and it’s not grindy every single time I want to level up an alt. So my key points are that I want it to be accessible earlier in the leveling process (First point at level 15, ideally), and the cost to unlock all of them should be under 10g. Honestly, the method by which they are obtained is almost irrelevant to me, at this point, as long as it’s not something I have to grind out, over and over again.

Instead of bickering over semantics and whinging and complainers and white knights, I’d really like to have an actual conversation with people (actual people, so let’s throw out all usage of the aforementioned forum slurs that are so prevalent everywhere else) about the shift in design philosophy we’ve seen from anet in the last year.

The first thing to do is explain the design choices that I perceive to be making this shift. Then I’ll tell you why I don’t like it. Ideally, you’ll read what I’ve written and respond with your own facts, and then your opinion about why it makes for a better or more interesting or engaging game, one way or the other.

This year has seen a drastic decline in the amount of choice and flexibility offered in my chosen game mode, which is open world PvE.

Please note: I am all for more choice for the other game modes, but I do not believe it has to be at the expense of choice in any one game mode.

The recent change to dailies is a small part of a larger whole, but it is the impetus to this discussion. The April feature patch saw fewer options in the daily list, and now there are even fewer options (again, please remember that I am speaking about my preferred game mode, PvE), and those options are incredibly specific.

I think it is fantastic that PvP and WvW now have more options, though it could be argued that many PvE objectives translated over to, at least, WvW (gatherer, reviver, recycler, kill variety and others). I am merely confused about why it had to be at the expense of the selection that was previously available.

The festival meta achievements used to have a ton of options. Wintersday has absolutely no flexibility in it. You do the specific 11 achievements, or you don’t get the meta rewards.

Leveling and trait acquisition is not only narrow in scope (do specific, time intensive, buggy and/or level inappropriate tasks), but it is repetitive; utterly without variation (except for the location of a couple of the tasks on the trait tree) among the professions. Leveling has become a checklist of chores, or a grind for skillpoints and/or gold. Why take a crucial part of character building and make it so inaccessible?

Some of you will argue that the idea is to force players into other modes of gameplay. Perhaps this is true, but is it necessary? Are we really too stupid to know what we find fun and entertaining? Should ‘force’ even come into the equation when we’re talking about leisure time? Does the removal of options register as fun to anyone out there? Is doing it worthy of defending?

I feel like this has all distinctly impacted how I choose to spend my time in game and, ultimately, if I choose to spend time in game.

Thanks for taking the time to read this and respond thoughtfully.

Yes. If you WANT to. As opposed to Season 1 where, if you missed it, you didn’t have any way to see it at all.

Waypoints>mounts always and forever.

I confess that I’m genuinely happy for people when they link good drops in chat.

The thread “Communicating With You” was locked recently, and it left a lot of things unresolved. I’d summarize it, but I really don’t have the energy for doing that sort of thing anymore. Loads of questions were noted as being important and an answer was said to be forthcoming, but a month later and we’re still missing things like the promised top 10 list of things implemented from the CDI threads.

I know Chris Whiteside has had some family emergency of some sort and my thoughts go out to him, but is he really the only one at ANET who is motivated to communicate with people? Is there really nobody else who could pick up the slack while he deals with his hardship? I don’t expect the same level of commitment, but at least answer SOME of the questions? Maybe try to group up with the five people slated to run through the NPE with Mr. Whiteside? Perhaps an update on how that discussion of the trait system is going?

Communication doesn’t need to be feast or famine. Feast is a good way to burn out employees and famine is a good way to alienate players. Figure out some kind of happy medium. Please. Thanks for reading.

EDIT: (3/9/14)
Here are some things this thread is NOT:
-A commentary on the effectiveness of the CDI.
-A catch-all of grievances against ANET.
-A demand (not even a polite one) that ANET compensate people who lost fractal levels.
-A debate about if reaching 50+ in fractals before the reset was an exploit, because it is against terms of use to openly accuse (rather than report) other players of cheating.

What it is:
-A discussion of a topic that was deemed off-topic in another thread (linked below).
-A notice to the community of how the events described below happened.
-A plea to Chris to carefully consider if this decision sets a good precedent.

Please think carefully before you hit “submit” on your response to this thread, and make sure it’s really relevant. If you’d like to discuss something else, please start your own topic. Thank you for your courtesy.

/EDIT

So…. this happened.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Romo.3709:

Also, Chris.
I’ve been trying to avoid the question for a while now, trying my hardest to contribute to this CDI as much as the time lets me, while trying to push this question to the back of my mind. It never seem to be a good time to ask it, but then again I don’t think it’ll ever be a good time to. But you once said that you will give your opinion on fractal reset after you gave it some thoughts. I was wondering if you got anything for us. Will we ever be compensated for levels we lost and those over multiple toons? Just stating if it’s not even a viable thing for discussion anymore would suffice.

I am pretty sure Izzy responded to this question a few months ago. I will check with him.

Chris

Estriella Faerie.4029:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

I am pretty sure Izzy responded to this question a few months ago. I will check with him.

Chris

After his response, the subject was still talked a lot. And you then told us you would think about how we felt and get back to us.

Source (response from Romo to Izzy): https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Vertical/page/3#post3369056

Your response to Romo after this: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Vertical/page/3#post3369091

This post and Chris Whiteside’s follow-up (here ) is also of particular interest in this discussion.

Since it’s considered off-topic in the Fractal Evolution CDI, I thought I’d start its own topic.

1. The change in the trait system.
11. The NPE. Level-gating things in order to make leveling seem more rewarding.
12. Putting precursor crafting into the game as a feature of the expansion.
13. Putting a muzzle on Josh Foreman.
14. Selling the infinite continue coin in the gemstore, then failing to work on that content at all for at least a year.
15. Introducing the watchwork pick at the same price point as the other infinite gathering tools.
16. Three months since the announcement of the expansion, and we still don’t have any information about what the other specializations will be, aside from Ranger-Druid/Staff, and Necro-Greatsword.
17. Selling the SAB minis on the SAB anniversary, with no intention of bringing it back right now.
18. Turning townclothes into tonics, not outfits.
19. Fractal reset.
20. Adding currencies to the game, but not to the wallet.
21. Narrowing dailies to be overly specific and complete removal of monthlies.

(I could make an equally long list of good design choices, as well, but that’s not the topic of this thread.)

I think it’s offensive to stand there and wag your finger in an attempt to “correct” the “negativity” in the forum. As if you and your positive feedback are more worthy than the people posting negative feedback.

There are plenty of forms of communication I disapprove of personally, but it’s not my job to set guidelines on this forum, nor is it yours.

This patch has been overwhelmingly positive in accordance with the way I play. There are plenty of issues that are very real and quite negative for a number of people. Those people have a right to be heard. Their dissatisfaction is costing ANET money. I don’t think saying “Shame on you” is a tactic that will help ANET.

It’s fine that you like the patch. It’s not fine that you think you’re entitled to dictate how people post. I’m sure there’s a place to apply for a job as a moderator, if you’re interested in making sure the forum guidelines are upheld.

Edit:

Will.6210:

Will.6210:

Players who are satisfied rarely post about how satisfied they are. Forums generally represent a vocal minority.

Actually…. that’s a myth.

The people who post on the forums are the most passionate about the game. Good companies understand how customer feedback works and pay attention. Bad companies believe the myth and wonder why their customer base is shrinking.

Quoted for truth! +1

Filaha.1678:

Technically, before, you could only unlock your traits to use by paying gold to the trainer. Now, you can unlock them by either paying gold/SP or doing a task that costs you nothing but time.

So, technically, you have more choice now than before, as far as unlocking traits goes.

As well, there were 12 dailies to choose from before, and 12 dailies to choose from now. Same amount of choice on what dailies to do. As well, one can choose to get their 10 AP by never leaving PVP or WVW, while before they couldn’t always choose to do so.

There’s a difference between “less choice” and “making different choices”.

I’m going to assume that you are posting in good faith, and are not being disingenuous.

Previously, the way to unlock traits was to level up, and spend under 3g. Now the choice is between spending up to 43g and 360 skillpoints or doing 65 specific tasks that are the exact same on each profession. So, if we’re splitting hairs, you’re right. There are two choices for unlocking traits instead of one. But, for me personally, the 65 tasks have diminished the choices I can make while leveling, and it paints a very narrow, cookie-cutter path to unlocking builds. So, no, I don’t find that to be a step toward more choice, I see it as being a step toward less diversity and less character development.

I tried very hard to be polite in my original post, and I thought I covered my points about the dailies that you seem to have ignored. So I’m going to continue to be polite:
I am aware that the total number of daily quests has not changed. Thanks for the head’s up. My point is that choice has been removed twice this year from my preferred game mode, and there’s no real reason for it.

I’m over the moon that PvP and WvW have options now, too. Imagine me, right now, dancing a jig. It’s great. It’s better than great! But it did not have to come at the cost of variety in the pve daily.

I sincerely hope that is clear, and that you’re not seriously going to try to argue that you’d rather have fewer choices in whatever your preferred game mode is.

Regardless of if you liked SAB or not, this was a pretty terrible way to handle the news. Vague statements after a year of silence wherein it was assumed the next worlds were being worked on. Does Anet even have a PR department? I’ll be very interested to see how they handle the infinite continue coin refunds.

Then again, this is a company who decided to reset progression in fractals for a leaderboard that still doesn’t exist.

I’m going to have to disagree. Levels in GW2 are much less important than in most other RPG systems. GW2 does an excellent job with scaling, as well, in most areas.

Shademehr.1397:

I’m in a small guild. Anywhere from 5-10 players on consistantly. We’re up to GH Level 17. A fully built Guild Hall is going to take some time and effort and that’s just the way life is. This isn’t about instant gratification. In fact most of the things in HoT aren’t instant gratification. However, lots of people seem to want everything NOW NOW NOW and not have to work for them.

I can’t expect to own a Ferarri if my bank account is only big enough for a Civic.

This is SO FAR from what is being discussed in this thread that the wrongness is making my head hurt.

Here’s what happened: I owned a ferrari, but then the city said that my garage was only suitable for a civic, and that I could earn back the ferrari if I jumped through a bunch of hoops.

Now everyone is saying that I should be happy there’s a Civic in my garage, because there’s no way one person deserves to own a Ferrari, and that I shouldn’t feel entitled to my Ferrari. And I’m like, “Yo, this Civic doesn’t even have a motor in it.”

And you’re like, “So greedy, wanting everything NOW NOW NOW. GO EARN YOUR MOTOR.”

And I have no idea why people think that’s even appropriate.

Fiery Greatsword is an inferior utility? In what universe?

Jeffrey Vaughn.1793:

It will unlock at L60. No progress has been lost. The L48 step used to be the start of a storyline that ran from L48-L59, but they’re all now part of the L60 chapter unlock, so you don’t have to level up between every step.

You never had to level up between every step. With the new gates, you have to level up before you can see the next part of the story. This is a step forward?

The ability to filter by armor weight in the trading post.

JonPeters.5630:

At the end of the day this system has helped spread out the teaching of the system and the feeling of accomplishment through acquisition, but it has done it in ways that are sometimes counterproductive and still not nearly visible enough to impact as many players as it could.

Guild Wars 2 is a game that is going to continue to evolve and it will be because of your feedback and our efforts so do not get discouraged from posting feedback and be patient with change and I hope we will reward that patience.

TLDR;
We added this system as a direct result from the horizontal progression CDI. We are always reading your feedback, however, we don’t always have time to respond right away or action it quickly. We updated some trait unlocks in the past but we can do more. How can you help?
1) Give us a list of the most offensive trait unlock locations.
2) Keep giving feedback and be patient as this is a big ship and it takes time to steer it.

I was an active participant in that CDI, Mr. Peters, and this system doesn’t resemble anything that was suggested there. It obviously draws on some of the ideas, but if you really think this is more user-friendly than your old system was, I’d like to suggest you roll a new character and actually unlock a build this way.

The most offensive trait unlocks are map completions, dungeons that are more than 10 levels higher than the trait tier, and traits tied to bugged events.

Vayne.8563:

I don’t know, most people who play MMOs are probably used to have one skill for the first five minutes of the game. What are the other popular MMOs right now? They seem to do it.

Sure it’s not what the game was at launch, I agree with that, but it is the big deal people are making it out to be.

The trait system thing did a lot more damage to the game than the NPE ever did.

Yeah, because if there’s anything I want GW2 to start doing, it’s adopting all the terrible habits that make other MMOs not be fun to play, right from the start. That whole bit about how you shouldn’t have to spend 80 levels getting ready to have fun and play the game was obviously a bad idea, and we, as customers, shouldn’t speak up when the best defense that can be given is, “It’s not as good as it was at launch, but it’s better than the rest of the stuff out there, so eh- what’re you gonna do?”

Why couldn’t they have used the 2012 version of the festivals??

Jana.6831:

Gregori.5807:

snip

No offense but anet collects all data of us: They know how many new players have what traits unlocked, maybe they even know how long it took them. They know how many veterans have unlocked/or bought traits – they know of all the problems we’re discussing. It wouldn’t make any change if they were to try the system themselves because they already know. And well, we know less than them as most of us writing here are veterans, we can only assume how new players feel about it.

They may have numbers, but they don’t know how it feels to go through the process. There’s a difference. And I’m not convinced they actually pay attention to the metrics involving traits, personally.

Hamfast.8719:

As soon as you introduce player-to-player direct trades, chat fills up with trade spam. And no matter what safeguards are applied, there will still be scammers and suckers. It isn’t worth the added annoyance of constant door-to-door salesmen and the pitiful crying of marks who get cheated.

EDIT:

Blegh. All y’alls are haters! If every other MMO allows this and a trading post system why can’t we?

If everyone jumped off a cliff, would “all y’alls” follow?

According to what I’ve witnessed in wvw, the answer to that is almost always “yes.”

Here’s what it boils down to for me: Before April’s feature patch, I played how I wanted and got stuff I wanted for it. After April’s feature patch, I could do some of the play how I wanted stuff that I could do before, and I could do some new stuff that I couldn’t do before, but my personal favorite part was deeply affected. Then the September patch made the thing I used to enjoy the most even less fun.

So, I don’t want to fly, or have precursors rain down from the sky, or wear capes or any of the other straw man arguments that are being constructed. The point is that the game is moving away from a design philosophy that clearly allowed people more choice and freedom than the present system encourages.

What is in the gem store that’s giving an advantage, exactly?

Talindra.4958:

woaaaah…. you want more legendaries ? if you ask me to choose. content or legendary skin? I say. content plsssssssssssssss

Here’s the biggest straw man of this entire discussion. Bottom line is that we shouldn’t have to choose. As Mr. O’Brien said, one of the major selling points of this game was its focus on a living, breathing world. The only story we’ve gotten since the end of S2 was from HoT. The world has been stale. And yet, their expansion promised a new generation of legendary weapons, and people bought it.

If they didn’t have any plan set up for the living world after the xpac, and they didn’t have a plan for the legendary journeys, what exactly did they spend all that prep work on? How is this not seen as a colossal failure on both counts?

It’s the same old cycle. They give us bad news, claim to be more invested than ever in communication, and people rush to congratulate them for making the hard choice to communicate. This is not new. It is dang close to being a slapstick routine, at this point.

And people are buying that it’s totally fine to neglect the thing that’s been bought and paid for (Heart of Thorns) in order for them to work on another thing they want to sell us (Season 3 and HoT2.0). This totally baffles me.

Wow. I feel it is completely disingenuous to act like this thread is about wanting spoilers for the story. Yeah. I’m going on hiatus from GW2 for a while, in a few days, I think. I’ll log in to get the update unlocked, but I’m going to need a break after the last couple of days of communication.

Just…. wow.

It doesn’t actually pertain to the current CDI discussion, which is why I’m making a separate thread. I also hope it will be more widely read than if I added to the 40+ pages of current discussion anyway.

My hypothesis is that the current set up for the Collaborative Development Initiative is not conducive to its intended purpose.

There’s Too Much To Discuss In One Thread

• Right now, the CDI is one massive, meandering, beast of a discussion.
• This is problematic in the sense that people cannot keep up with threads of this size.
• Summaries are quickly buried (special thanks to Lost Witch for making her summary threads, which was a huge help in this!) and they are extremely time-consuming, even when splitting the workload. I’ve spent a great deal of time doing the partial summaries instead of participating, and avoiding the thread when I wasn’t summarizing, for the most part.
• So many voices crying out to be heard! It can often be hard for the developers to keep up with so many ideas, and this results in frustration on both sides (I think).
• Swept along by the current of the thread- I think many people abandon ideas that seem less popular in order to try to be heard discussing ideas the developers show interest in. Because, ultimately, the point is to interact with the developers to effect change. (Or is it affect? I cannot keep those two straight in my head, but I’m pretty sure it’s effect.)
  Along this line, many of these very generalized threads have been taken over by one or two ideas, leaving others feeling “steam-rolled” or ignored.

Proposed Solutions

• Make a CDI forum. Please. It’s time. Only developers (maybe community moderators?) can start topics in this forum. A subforum will be a generalized idea, like what we’ve been doing thus far with the threads themselves. So, for example, we’d have an open subforum called CDI: Character Progression- Horizontal Discussion, and one discussion created with the same title, more or less. That’s where we start from. Maybe sticky the master thread, if necessary.
• When you (meaning developers) see a more specific topic being discussed at length or a developed idea that you find interesting and potentially doable in GW2, start a new topic for discussion on that.
  It would look something like this, on the top of the forum:

Guild Wars 2>Forums>Collaborative Development Initiative>CDI: Character Progression- Horizontal>CDI: Skill Acquisition Methods (Horizontal)

• Edit the first post in the master thread with a link to the topic “CDI: Skill Acquisition Methods” (or “CDI: Sub-Classes”) and your first post of the master thread becomes the summary, like magic.
• The master thread becomes the place for people to go, “Hey, is there any interest in this and do the developers think it is worth discussing, or is this something that doesn’t have potential to go anywhere?” or “Is this something that applies to this general topic?”
• Eventually the sub-forum becomes read-only, like the living story.

In conclusion:

• The meaty discussion can take place in appropriate topics, and developers can see for themselves which ideas the community feels strongly about at a glance.
• Focused discussions can emerge and evolve more naturally.
• Developers can go to topics that apply to their areas of expertise and more easily get a feel for what is being suggested and how they might shape those discussions.
• The community has a more distinct image of what is and is not possible, and so we know where to focus our energy. (I don’t know about anyone else, but it does take me some time and energy to formulate, edit, format and finalize my contributions to the thread. I would rather not be chasing fairy tales, personally.)

And voila! Everyone is happier- at least in theory.

I’d love to hear back from my fellow CDI-ers, good or bad, so long as it’s constructive.

You are wrong in your thinking. People help because there’s literally no such thing as “stealing” a kill.

Azzer.8137:

I for one like the new trait system a lot, it’s like in Gw1 where you had to go out in the world and use a signet of capture, but i guess most people today are entitled little idiots who don’t like to work for anything at all.

Also this is insane i know, but i know a way to get a traid withouth doing the event/boss/veteran/whatever.

ok here it comes…..

you can BUY it straight of a trainer! OMG!!!!! so insane!!! whaaaat so you are saying that i can actually just buy them instead of crying like a little kitten ?

Yes that is correct.

“Entitled little idiots”
“crying like a little kitten”
I’m sorry, but you think this is an okay way to talk to people?

It costs 43g and 360 skillpoints to buy all the traits from the vendor. Prior to April of this year, it was 2g70s for all 60 traits.

Yes. I want the game that I originally purchased. Maybe that makes me “entitled,” I don’t know. But if the new trait system is so wonderful, then it shouldn’t be a problem to set the price back to what it was originally. If the new trait system is so engaging and fun and easy-to-use, most people won’t bother spending that 3g, right?

Reason for edit: Temper got the better of me.

I mean this in all seriousness: Get help. Stop playing the game. Talk to somebody. What you are doing is not normal, adult behavior, and I don’t mean that as an insult, I mean it as an alarm. If you are prone to depression and obsessive behavior, this is not the place for you to be, and you should be getting more sleep. I wish you all the best.

Those guidelines are great to have! I’m way excited to get started on this thread. Here’s what I’ve been working on so far:

Make the Personality System Matter:

Emotes should vary based on your personality.

• The downside is that there are ten personality types. This would require a distinct effort at expanding the emotes system, because each one presently in the game would require nine variations.
• Solution: Hold a contest. List the ten personality types (or link to the wiki) and the emotes available, then ask for email submissions. Have a community leader type person select the best, then all you have to do is submit it to the proper editors to make sure there’s nothing inappropriate or misspelt in the final batch, so you don’t have to slog through all the entries. Winning IS the reward. Immortalize the winners somewhere on the website and they get to see their emote go in-game.

Personality-bound titles

• Maybe temporary based on current personality or maybe permanent. I can see arguments both ways. I think it would be a great starter title, and my preference would be for one that changes based on a character’s current personality.
• This might be hard to implement, since titles are account bound and I don’t know if there would be a simple way to introduce either version of this. Certainly achieving a permanent title seems like the easier option to implement.

Personality influenced drops

• I would lean toward this impacting cosmetic drops only, and only when multiple versions of one item may drop- notably like the three elemental back pieces in Zephyr Sanctum. This would work if the primary personality trait made a slight difference in which one dropped, and not in actual drop rates. I think this would need to be included in the patch notes when it does happen, so that people may plan accordingly.
• This would not exclude the chance at (in my example) any of the three back pieces dropping, it would just be a slightly higher chance that one of the three could drop. So it wouldn’t be like “Oh, I’ll play on my character who has Charm as the primary stat and be guaranteed the Wind Catcher.” Your Charm-based character could still get any of the three.

Make the Order Decision Matter:

Ranks within Orders

• Ranks could grant new titles. (Titles are such an inexpensive way to show progress, in my opinion!) Again, you could offer a contest for naming these ranks.
• Ranks could be obtained by doing extended quests for their Order- I’m thinking something on par with the monthly quests, but not linked to it. Maybe have a daily and monthly Order quest. This would need to be character-based, which would then motivate people to log in on more characters. Or maybe it could be account bound and characters in each Order would contribute to those quests. (Higher ranking characters could earn more “points” for these quests, maybe.)
• Order rank should be long-term, not something that can happen in a week.

Add tiered Order-based progression

• Armor skins, based on obtaining ranks within the Orders. Maybe even just back pieces and/or gloves.
• If this is too costly, new weapon skins for progressing through the Order ranks shouldn’t be out of the question.
• Add access to soulbound or account bound Order exclusive dyes at the top rank.
• Maybe the top rank should award access to a full set of armor skins. Again, I can see how this might not be cost-efficient, but the upside is that it could be a pretty major gold sink.

Wow. I’m embarrassed for ANET that a forum-user is aggregating their official news for them.

Yeah. I’m just out of words on this.

ZaidDyan.3057:

There are a lot of calls for “revert” here – but I don’t think people realise how hard that is to do from a software development perspective.

GW2 is an extremely complex game with many interdependent systems. It’s inevitable that there will be other systems in the game which now depend on code in the new Traits system. Rolling back to the “old” system would break things elsewhere.

This practically means that a roll-back or revert might take nearly as much development resource as building Traits 3.0. Thus the desire to “hotfix” as much as possible and then use the learnings from Traits 2.0 (current) to make a really good next iteration. This learning comes from data analysis of actual players (e.g. how many are really getting stuck due to traitlock at level 40, 60 etc. vs getting to 80 and playing regularly) – as well as forum members and other feedback points.

Of course, implementing Traits 3.0 means adjusting all of the parts of the system that depend on the current system. As a result, this can’t just happen any time. It needs to be part of a “whole-of-system” review. So maybe we’ll see this in Feature Pack 3, 4 or 5…

In the meanwhile, the best thing readers of this thread can do is give them info to implement hotfixes within the current system. If we can help them get 60% of the way there with hotfixes then they can focus Feature Pack 3 or 4 effort on making new stuff vs. fixing existing stuff.

Well, if they were willing to actually read the thread, there are plenty of ideas for new iterations and hotfixes both. But since they went for almost 5 months without responding to the feedback, there are nearly 50 pages to read, and they don’t want to expend the energy.

I know what Jon Peters wants from us, I just find it insulting.

runeblade.7514:

dlonie.6547:

Why did you have to wait for HoT to just pop on and say “We recognize that this is a problem and are working to fix it.”

Do you realize how much nicer it would be if we were to receive timely information? Is that asking too much?

I realize that there was a hint about this given a couple of weeks ago by Gaile, but that was still 70-some odd pages into this thread — about 8 months since this thread started.

That’s eight months widening the gap of distrust between ArenaNet and it’s players. Eight months of rage that could have been avoided from the start by just engaging with us in a timely manner. Seriously, ask yourselves — is this how you want your company to present itself to its players?

I hope that post-HoT, the need to wait for every meaningful communication to require hype and theatrics is gone.

Because it was never a problem.

Uh, this 80-page thread and my drastically diminished time in-game would like to have a word with you. You can say that it’s not a problem all you want, but even the devs have said that it’s a problem that is going to be fixed.

As an active participant in the “Horizontal Progression: CDI” thread, I can confirm that many of the top requested things were addressed in the April 15th patch, and one of those things was a more interactive method of gaining traits. Many people suggested a system similar to GW’s skill-hunting. So this is clearly in response to that, and kudos to Anet for listening, and starting to make adjustments based on the feedback from players in the new system.

However.

This new system can’t be good for your new player retention rates. Seriously, the old system used to cost… what, 2g70s to unlock all the traits? And 40g + 340 skillpoints is seen as a reasonable increase?

Some of the arguments here in favor of the current trait system are mind boggling. It imparts a sense of progression? It is busywork preventing you from actually learning how to play your character fully. It takes away a system that was handed out for less than 3g for almost 2 full years and says that each character you make must now complete 65 unrelated, specific, and tedious tasks or pay 43g and 360 skill points to allow the same level of access.

The announcement for it focused on the fact that you no longer have to buy the tier unlocks- now you can just dive right in and start playing with the system immediately once you reach the appropriate level.

This is a game that I purchased because I was enamoured of the reasoning that the whole game should be fun to play, not just the part of the game after you reach level 80. Leveling in guild wars 2 was a refreshing and enjoyable experience because it largely wasn’t level-gated. And gaining levels didn’t render areas obsolete! I could still go to a starter zone with friends new to the game and get substantial experience out of it, and it was still challenging! I frequently forgot I even had level 20 scrolls, and I thought tomes of knowledge would never be for me.

If you’re trying to argue that having access to traits isn’t “game changing” you’re either using traits wrong, flat out lying, or traits are superfluous and Anet needs to be paying close attention to why that is.

$50 is the price. I’d advise waiting for a sale sometime after launch.

And here are some of my favourite posts from the first 4 pages.

Marcus Greythorne.6843
Scavenger hunt
Utility minipets
LS NPCs in home instance

ArtemusHunter.9521
Legendary dyes

VOLKON.1290
Crafting with more flavor
Tinkering

Gulesave.5073
Traits rework

Soeki.9643
Customize skills

The Lost Witch.7601
Challenge Missions

Shanaeri Rynale.6897
Commentary w/solutions

Astral Projections.7320
book system, etc

Nike.2631
Runes/sigils

Karizee.8076
Commander tags reflect WvW rank/Achievements, etkitten

hril Ashwalker.6230
Why have 5 guilds but only the ability to help 1 at a time

Knaifhogg.5964
Dungeon Tokens

DanteZero.9736
modular gear customization
Follow-up

DiogoSilva.7089
Racial skills granted more power at home
dyes/skins
Armor pass

Dominus.2360
Item appearance levels

Sykper.6583
Enhanced cultural armor

Shunsui Jiraiya.9103
Multiple ideas

Louveepine.7630
Multiple

D I V A.6018
Build Diversity

Shockwave.1230
General ideas

Mixchimmer.7230
Sub-classes, etc

Tyops.5894
Weapon/elite skills
Single-use skins don’t feel like progression

Lheimroo.2947
Dyes

Wasbunny.6531
Feasible dual spec

Finnway.2183
Separate PvE skills from PvP and WvW

roflcopter airlines.7125
Titles with color, and more

Odd Magnet.3970
Account-wide bag slot, bring back the arena challenge, etc

butch.8136:

Guhracie.3419:

Colin, can you comment on a general time frame for this change? It sounds like you’re saying it won’t be until HoT is released, and that seems like a mistake.

Also, thank you very much for this update. This is extremely welcome news.

‘mistake’….

A mistake would be making no change. Don’t get too greedy.

No. You don’t get to tell me what my expectations should be. It’s been almost ten months now. I’m not being greedy, I’m being incredibly polite.

The removal of nodes in the early parts of starter zones, level-gating downed and underwater skills… level-gating is just bad, but downed skills in particular. It’s like, “Oh, hey, there’s this totally useless mechanic and now it just takes me slightly longer to die.”

I just don’t understand how this can be seen as an improvement. Maybe with traits fixed, the leveling experience will become less cumbersome, but… wow. I cannot overstate how much this whole thing has destroyed my desire to level alts in the open world. It’s just… why?

There are some really good additions- the compass, for example. The optional compass. And I like the bunny heart’s new location in Wayfarer. But as things currently stand, leveling has turned into the worst kind of tedium.

Jana.6831:

Guhracie.3419:

They may have numbers, but they don’t know how it feels to go through the process. There’s a difference. And I’m not convinced they actually pay attention to the metrics involving traits, personally.

They do, that was why they changed the trait system in the first place. It was discussed during the marionette event and they said they were astonished how many people paid that little attention to their traits and changing skills to different situations.
So: You say that they should learn how it feels, but do you know how it feels to all those who don’t write in this thread? Do you know whether or not they like it? The one time someone came into this thread and said he was a new player who liked a),b) and c) but not d) about the system he was met with some rather harsh words. I guess having a look into the data makes more sense than just listening to what we 5 people here have to say. AND it goes faster than making anet try their system themselves.

Oh, I guess that’s why most games don’t have playtesters, because metrics are all that matter. Oh, wait……

Additionally, there are more than 5 people talking in this thread. It has dwindled over the course of six months, of course, as other people have probably either decided it wasn’t worth it to post, or have moved on to other games.

Once more, the lack of any real centralized information about what the devs say rears its head. I’ve never heard that Marionette was the reason they changed the trait system. I’ve only heard what they’ve said in their blog posts about it, which was that it was to encourage build diversity.

I, Guhracie.3419, do pledge that I will not make use of the petty and demeaning go-to forum slurs. I also pledge that I will immediately disregard the entirety of any post making active use of these slurs, even if the overall opinion is in keeping with my own views. Henceforth, the following ad hominim attacks (and any variation thereof) will be ignored (and not used) by me:
White knight
fanboy
troll
shill
haters
whiners
complainers
entitled
toxic
QQ

Please feel free to add to this list, and I will keep it updated with my own personal pledge. Feel free to modify the pledge in any way you’d like, as long as it’s in keeping with the whole theme of making the forum a more positive place to be. Let’s do a little self moderation, folks.

EDIT: To add a few I agree with. I’m also not saying that these words are ignored without context, I’m saying that when they’re slung around as slurs, I’m not going to engage with that post.

Rich Fuel.7253:

almost every single post here is about how no 1 likes Anet,
you payed once! and played for 2 years and all you do is complain, you dont have rights to complain!
new pvp rewards
class balance (so u wont cry that warrior is op)
more “traits” for wvw
commander color, not a big change but can have a big effect if used right
megaserver maybe this time it will be right, if no the heck so ull miss tequatl or just need to be ready 20 min ahead
u dont get kicked from dungeon wen the leader leaves
a small but nice improvment for crafting + new back pieces
fresh start, eaither a new member or a 2 years members starts a new class and will have easier life lvling
finishers and minis im not fan of that but i know alot of people who are
new collection achivment, more ap more loot, even if u dont get profit for it, its an extra goal.
Anet i paid once for the game but you keep adding staff every now and then, even if its a mere dagger or gs skin
Thank you! 2 years and im still enjoying
all you 12 year old cry babys are ungreatfull

You don’t know me, therefore you have no right to complain about my posts. You’ve never paid me for anything.

Because the game doesn’t have a trinity system. Your support build is supposed to do damage as well. There’s no dedicated healing, just like there’s no dedicated tanking.

Rangelost.4857:

Oh. So, could ArenaNet please start taking action to make PvP a better place for players who actually want to PvP?

Yeah, taking action against custom arenas designated specifically in the name as being a place for people who don’t want to PvP seems like a great way to make actual PvP matches a better place for players who want to PvP.

Because shoving people who hate PvP and don’t want to be doing it in with people who actually want to PvP, that’s bound to make things better.

Or maybe having those specifically designated custom arenas is putting people who don’t want to PvP in their own arenas so that people who actually want to PvP … I dunno, can.

Welcome to month 11, folks! Eleven months is apparently not enough time to do something like reduce the cost of buying traits while they figure out how to “fix” it, whatever that means. It’s now been almost a month since we were told that the system would be fixed. I’m wondering if it’ll be another six months of silence, like last time.

I really don’t understand the people who are literally (in their actual descriptions) crying about not getting an invite to the stress test. It’s two 2-hour events. It’s like having your feelings hurt because your lottery numbers weren’t chosen for a $10 prize. This is nothing personal. (I also was not selected, by the way.) Seriously, if not getting chosen for a single stress test is causing actual depression, you might want to take a step back and get some perspective. I get that it’s disappointing, but it’s not the end of the world. And it’s certainly not a slap in the face.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

cesmode.4257:

Doggie.3184:

Can we delete the month of June so I can see this sooner?

You want more temporary content with poor story telling and more cash shop grabs in the form of dresses and mini pets? Wrapped in a nice big zerg sandwhich garnished with zero skill and mutliplayer accountability?

Coming right up!

Do you think the Dev is not telling the truth, then? I think if they state it is permanent, it will be permanent. Otherwise, there will be a rough road ahead.

But, that’s just me. =)

I think that a random person with an ANET tag discussing unreleased information could be misinformed. I’ll wait for official word on the release.