Guild Wars 2

Exciton.8942:

Daniel Handler.4816:

This benefits condirupt. I made a build that uses these types of traits, and the immobilize on interrupt you can get in chaos.

Start of combat, scepter/pistol+X, perplexity runes, rabid or sinister gear.

1. summon duelist, 8 stacks confusion 8+ stacks bleed
2. blind with scepter 2, 2 stacks confusion
3. interrupt as they attempt to clear blind with pistol 5, 7 stacks of confusion
4. scepter 3, while interrupting with MoD, 7 stacks of confusion

This chain can then be repeated. All you need to do is lock down condi cleanse.

Also remember that maim is for shatter builds.

Combining interrupt and confusion is a little bit counter-intuitive to me. Confusion is a condition that punishes foes that activate skills while interrupted foes can’t use skills. Similar story with blind. I just don’t see the synergy there at all.

But I do get the part that it can benefit players use non-shatter-centric condie builds. However, the question is that will it still be vastly inferior to the maim shatter condie build especially after Anet wants to push mesmer to use shatter more.

Confusion damages on activation or the “cast” of the skill. This has nothing to with blind or interrupt. Both make the cast unsuccessful but confusion damage is not altered. The enemy still activated the the skill, it just didn’t work out.
Essentially your target is forced to use weaker skills or no skills at all. Which, having huge stacks of bleed and confusion on them, as well as constant immobilize, is painful either way.

@tetrodoxin
BB will put 2 stacks, on a 5 second cooldown.

What depresses me from the lore is that Malomedies was essentially tortured by Asura until they determined he was sentient. So the race no matter how old it gets will have the potential to be reminded by the dream of this cruel act. The other sad part is that he was firstborn, and this became one of his very first experiences not only of the world, but of anything.

Jelle.2807:

In defense of the humans:

Firstly afaik there aren’t many details about what sparked the first charr human conflicts. The original ascalonian settlers may well have been peaceful, while what we do know is that the charr have a history of being territorial and agressive. And even then if you look at the wall the ascalonians only took a small portion of the land, only a fraction of what lay north of the wall and east of the blazeridge. It’s only after the charr continued throwing themselves at the humans and lost their khan that they started losing land, in part due to violent infighting.

Secondly, claiming land because at some point in time some far ancestor called it home isn’t particularly good ethics. Hell, the forgotten have a greater claim on ascalon than the charr in that case. In the end land belongs to those who are born of it, which then were ascalonians and now are modern day charr. The ‘this is charr land’ justification is no more than an excuse for the glorification of their warmongering history.

Bathos.6341:

The charr didn’t attack ascalon out of malace, they attacked it to take back land taken from them, and to avenge an entire GENERATION of their people massacred by humans.

You realize the charr invasion was nearly a millenium after they were driven out? By all accounts it was ancient history by then, especially when you consider the searing was no more than three centuries ago current time.

Similar to modern day Israel. The concept of “homeland” defies time. Given the right environmental push, any culture can go to war.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

They still exist, but most of the magic is now outside of them, so using their limitations isn’t necessary. To quote a dev interview:

Esprits d’Orr : We heard that a link exists between the ancient times’ four schools of magic (Preservation, Destruction, Denial, and Aggression) and the classes of the game. However, we haven’t found any reference in game about these schools. Do they still exist, are they known to the races, and if so, to which kind of current magic are each of them related to ?

Angel McCoy : These schools aren’t as important in modern magic as they were even 250 years ago. They have fallen out of style as people have realized that magic doesn’t need these kinds of limiting factors. Only the most ancient magic users, those who based their magical constructs on this dogma, continue to pursue their knowledge in this way. Thus, you’re only likely to find reference to them in the back-most shelves at the Durmand Priory and in jokes made by young people about old people.

I think the limit exists. But only for simultaneous nature.

Esprits d’Orr : For gameplay considerations, each class can cast only a specific type of magic. However, in terms of roleplay, would it be possible for wizards to have a wider magical knowledge or potential, and therefore be able to cast spells from a variety of branches (such as an elementalist fireball coupled with a mesmer illusion) ?

Angel McCoy : I love that idea, as do many people living in Tyria. The reality, however, is that only the most powerful have the time and energy to do this. It’s like getting two doctorate degrees, one in medicine and one in engineering. Few have the time to do this, and usually, an individual doesn’t want to turn her back on everything she’s already learned to start a new magical discipline. She’d much rather continue advancing her knowledge in the discipline she’s invested decades in. Some, however, may dabble and experiment with specific spells. If a master elementalist can find a mesmer to teach her to produce an illusion, then she may explore ways to combine them. Most professions keep their secrets close to their chests though. And, the danger of a conflict between magical energies and thus, an explosion, is very real..

From this I draw that the bloodstones are a somehow limiting factor. Perhaps the magic to create an illusion, and the magic to create a fireball were once the same. And one could shatter the reality of permanent objects. Or perhaps all the bloodstones did was separate magic from its pure form into magical energies? Notice there are no fields that are fire AND ethereal.

This benefits condirupt. I made a build that uses these types of traits, and the immobilize on interrupt you can get in chaos.

Start of combat, scepter/pistol+X, perplexity runes, rabid or sinister gear.

1. summon duelist, 8 stacks confusion 8+ stacks bleed
2. blind with scepter 2, 3 stacks confusion
3. interrupt as they attempt to clear blind with pistol 5, 8 stacks of confusion
4. scepter 3, while interrupting with MoD, 12 stacks of confusion

This chain can then be repeated. All you need to do is lock down condi cleanse.

Also remember that maim is for shatter builds.

Edited to match the traits correctly. We also apply confusion on our crits.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

As far as we know, guardians are post-bloodstone era, meaning they don’t have to map to any one in particular. That said, a lot of their stuff, right up to the faith-based power source, comes straight from monks, who at a very safe guess were hooked to Preservation.

We don’t have anything specific on any other current class, including mesmer, but my educated guess is they’re powered by a mindset of “I reject your reality and substitute my own.”

Well the bloodstones still exist, so any magic post should map. It was the previous eras magic that didn’t map. Like Ranger or Ritualist.

Does anyone know what a forum specialist is or who I would talk to?

You asked for an experimental proof that any number less than 30,000 – 30,000 is less than 0. Pyro is saying that any mitigation to prevent such an occurrence is not conducive to PvP. Tell me what experimental proof you want for that.

MSFone.3026:

Manip cd reduction trait should be baseline.

More than that, the mantra cd reduction trait should be baseline. Mantras are such a pain to charge in combat anyways I don’t see why there should be anything like a 30 sec cd, it should be 10 max.

Did they remove mantra reduction completely? I can’t find it.

TyPin.9860:

@Daniel Handler:
Yeah, I guessed before that you were a philosopher in some sense.

But that sentence of yours is horribly misguided:
“This is unquestionable deductive logic that requires no testing because it is math.”

Math makes absolutely no statement about “real world” whatsoever, doesn’t require real world measuring and only relies on deduction. If we but discuss such things like the actual balance in a game, math might provide a tool for analysis, predictions and such, but alone does not ever provide any proof of that balance.

Also you said:
“Deductive is right until proven wrong.”
That is also not correct. You might wanna recheck what the falsification principle actually means, for you seem to confuse logic (including mathematical proof) with experimental proof (which Fay asked off me). Just having a valid theory, doesn’t mean that this theory doesn’t require poof. A deduction can be logically true (one of the criteria of a valid theory), unless one finds a flaw in that same logic. This doesn’t provide any proof though about any real world issue whatsoever, same as math.

Any theory about gravity has to actually be tested (as in experimental proof). Only if we fail to falsify the theory (aka the deduced hypotheses) then we assume that it (the theory) actually is true (as in experimentally true). It becomes an established theory, which popularly gains the attribut “proven”.

Also, please refrain from taking every word I say literally. I am responding to at least 2 ppl in this thread regularly and will not reread every post word by word to respond with the perfect correct wording (no idea how it is about you, but English is not being my mother tongue). But context is everything and just Fay didn’t use the word “everything”, doesn’t mean he didn’t imply a yet not proven superiority of Lich (as in experimental proof, same as Fay asked me to provide):

Fay.2357:

Lich autoattacks will easily deal 3.5k a pop on a target with 3000 armor. Most targets don’t have 3000 armor, meaning the attacks do significantly more. If just ‘one capable player’ focuses the lich, the lich can focus that one capable player, and I guarantee you the lich wins unless that players is a mesmer with moa or fully built for reflects.

I for once cannot help but think that this is a cheap way to try to shut me down, instead of keeping up a fruitful discussion. Especially you, complaining earlier about some of my rather trollish posts, should know better than to do so.

@Fay:
I will leave it at that. We both made our points. I think you are somewhat disconnecting the conjunctions of my argument (making them seem very ridiculous), but that judgement is up to the reader, if anyone is even interested in the topic. We are running in circles at this point.

I will try to produce the “evidence” you required of me, although no1 has shown me equal evidence of the of the superior strength of Lich.

Btw. I have been indeed on the receiving end of Lich and I never claimed it would be a cake walk to face a Lich. But well… it is as it is…

@Mogar:
Really, just as the thread became more civilized, and I am not denying that some of my posts were troll posts, you come taking stuff out of context. I literally said:

TyPin.9860:

The other issue here is about Moa itself and how it can be countered. Also this is partly brought forward as a reason that Moa should not be nerfed. I agree that I can not that easily refute this, for I have not much personal experience using Moa.

I think you are confused about what I was trying to prove. That Pyro would be correct in saying Lich has the potential to decimate. Mathematical proofs are often used in experimental proofs. Also I don’t think you know how deductive logic works. For it to be done correctly the premises have to be true. Therefore deductive logic done correctly is based on already proven premises. What theories do you think I am using in my reasoning? You seem to be thinking I am using inductive logic, rather than deductive based on mathematical principles. Mathematical principles like addition which should work in this universe 100% of the time.

“This is unquestionable deductive logic that requires no testing because it is math.”
To prove it wrong or to need testing, you would have to prove wrong the math behind the statements. The premises are based on the mathematical coefficients inherent to the skill. These are unchanging. It is based on the absolute min and max health range for players. Which changes, but not enough to invalidate the premise. It is finally based on the statement, “if it hits”, which is theoretical. As a result these things align to form an irresistible conclusion. That:

Lich can kill a player that it hits unmitigated several times in succession.

You are basing your answer on mitigation. That is why I am asking you for proof.

They shouldn’t make any more traits baseline for mesmer. We already got enough.

Does this video have anything to do with the Magic Bullet skill which is in reference to the assassination of John Fitzgerald Kennedy?

What is Mur? Also nothing should be added to baseline. We got twice as many as the other classes. And nothing else makes sense as a baseline.

Carighan.6758:

Well apart from having some issues interpreting the text (is ok though), I don’t really get what you mean by this.

How is Chronomancer “homogenizing” the class? Yes we get runspeed, but that boat sailed 2 years ago when they buffed all the other passive speed options instead of properly fixing the issue.
And we get quite a few unique things. Alacrity, time-reset, upgrades to your shatter and phantasm mechanics… how is this homogenizing?

He is actually saying the opposite. He is excited we got something unique. He didn’t want us to get some meta function like might stacking. He might be responding to an earlier post in the thread, or the spirit of the thread which is that our shield should fit snugly into the meta.

witcher.3197:

My post was deleted by a mod. TL;DR – you really want that gold too bad you don’t have anything to claim it.

The best you can do is complaining about wording in the usage, which basically isn’t even part of the build? But fine, let’s consider usage to be a part of it because you are special.

If you watch closely, the skill itself does link to Blur. The rest is called figurative speech but you probably never heard of it.

The article is refering to Sword 2 as 2nd distortion because it can be used as a panic button just like F4. What’s next, you’ll say “ha! it say stability will help me stomp enemies, I pressed stability and he did not get somped! you did not say I must press F!”?

@Sadrien – MtD is trash, whatever you add or don’t add it’ll be trash. Besides, not having extra 10 million options listed isn’t a mistake.

PS – I have better things to do than listening to unreasonable arguements of the forum cult, if anyone still has any questions PM me, but I’m done here.

The skill itself doesn’t link to blur page it links to the tool tip which has blur in the text. But none of the explanation of what that means. Distortion and blur both say evade in the tooltips you have linked. And the distortion tooltip is old and doesn’t mention it prevents point capturing. This guide has not been made modern.

Also if you wanna complain about the build part, show me where sigil of blood or rune of vampirism is a meta variant. Sure anything is viable, but is it optimal? Heck no, I have never seen in the streams of the people you list either being used. You have an out of date site. These builds are suppose to be optimal, not just viable. Sure traditional shatter hasn’t reached the level of meta by the rankings, but the intent is to be to refine existing builds to try to be as optimal as possible.

Would that mean that Mesmer magic is based in will? How does this tie into the bloodstones?

StickerHappy.8052:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Daniel Handler.4816:

witcher.3197:

Daniel Handler.4816:

(…)

If blood was added instead of leeching that’s because blood was used at tournaments or by top streamers and not leeching, as we don’t add things randomly. Leeching works best if you have a geomancy, hydromancy or an already placed AoE to proc it, otherwise it can be dodged or blinded. When you swap to sword that usually happens because you are being focused, very often by a thief in which case melee combat is unavoidable and proccing blood more than once shouldn’t be too hard. Both sigils have pros and cons but neither of them are main recommendations.

Sadrien.3470:

I think all my suggestions I pmed to witcher deserve 100gold each…. where’s my 1k gold in the mail.

Yes like adding runes that are at least 2 years outdated, sure great suggestions. Or the one where you did not realize that staff is listed on the build and were ranting about how the usage has parts about staff?

Give me my money. The part about sword and blurred frenzy is blatantly wrong. As I said in the post I don’t care how you feel about blood sigil, I have this other part as backup l want my money.

BF certainly isn’t distortion. Retal and condi procs anyone? My fav is landing a scepter 2 5 stacks torment on a Bkitten mesmer. Anyway, a bad links a bad link.

The appropriate effect is Blur, and there should be an individual wiki page for it, which unfortunately for you there’s not. Metabattle oversight; should have checked your sources.

+1 for Metabattle. Worth the 100g.

BF was Distortion before, now its just an evade or something.

Which is why I want my money. @Witcher

Yes it makes sense. Also I should not be commenting at 8 in the morning having just woken up. I’m sorry it was 90 degrees outside and I was using my phone to comment. I was outside all day and >.< commenting.

So to move the discussion forward. It seems like pve content is being designed in a way so that difficult bosses can not be moved. This makes things like stacking golems in Sorrow’s Embrace impossible now. I actually can see them fixing it so Engineers cant gain quickness from breakbar mobs. They should fix it so every time you break a bar you proc all interrupt traits.

I think your concern warrants posting it to the HoT forum though.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Daniel Handler.4816:

witcher.3197:

Daniel Handler.4816:

(…)

If blood was added instead of leeching that’s because blood was used at tournaments or by top streamers and not leeching, as we don’t add things randomly. Leeching works best if you have a geomancy, hydromancy or an already placed AoE to proc it, otherwise it can be dodged or blinded. When you swap to sword that usually happens because you are being focused, very often by a thief in which case melee combat is unavoidable and proccing blood more than once shouldn’t be too hard. Both sigils have pros and cons but neither of them are main recommendations.

Sadrien.3470:

I think all my suggestions I pmed to witcher deserve 100gold each…. where’s my 1k gold in the mail.

Yes like adding runes that are at least 2 years outdated, sure great suggestions. Or the one where you did not realize that staff is listed on the build and were ranting about how the usage has parts about staff?

Give me my money. The part about sword and blurred frenzy is blatantly wrong. As I said in the post I don’t care how you feel about blood sigil, I have this other part as backup l want my money.

BF certainly isn’t distortion. Retal and condi procs anyone? My fav is landing a scepter 2 5 stacks torment on a Bkitten mesmer. Anyway, a bad links a bad link.

The appropriate effect is Blur, and there should be an individual wiki page for it, which unfortunately for you there’s not. Metabattle oversight; should have checked your sources.

+1 for Metabattle. Worth the 100g.

I want my money.

Xaylin.1860:

Daniel Handler.4816:

…

I’m impressed by your selective reading capabilities. #shade

No, I don’t use interrupt traits in PvE right now. Because they don’t work. But they should work. The reduction in traits does matter and you shouldn’t put it off as some hypothetical babbling – especially not so since it does take the known list of reworked traits into account.

DuckDuckBOOM has gone into detail on how the new defiance bar will harm us. To be fair, not only us but probably also other classes with related traits (e.g. at least Warriors). However, Mesmers are especially affected because of the high amount of interrupt traits we got. Ontop of that we got plenty of GM shatter traits which are also rather supbar in PvE content. Go figure.

If you don’t feel like wrapping your head around some sound arguments and concerns that’s your choice. But having a high percentage of traits not working in PvE is a major issue and it won’t change just because you feel I didn’t make a valid point. I’m not concerned about existing builds. I’m conerned about the general performance of Mesmers and build diversity.

Do you use absolute build diversity? Or build diversity of viable and maybe even optimal builds? What I’m trying to say is that it for the most part people weren’t using the traits that were removed, diversity is maintained. Either way I would like a concrete example.

witcher.3197:

Daniel Handler.4816:

(…)

If blood was added instead of leeching that’s because blood was used at tournaments or by top streamers and not leeching, as we don’t add things randomly. Leeching works best if you have a geomancy, hydromancy or an already placed AoE to proc it, otherwise it can be dodged or blinded. When you swap to sword that usually happens because you are being focused, very often by a thief in which case melee combat is unavoidable and proccing blood more than once shouldn’t be too hard. Both sigils have pros and cons but neither of them are main recommendations.

Sadrien.3470:

I think all my suggestions I pmed to witcher deserve 100gold each…. where’s my 1k gold in the mail.

Yes like adding runes that are at least 2 years outdated, sure great suggestions. Or the one where you did not realize that staff is listed on the build and were ranting about how the usage has parts about staff?

Give me my money. The part about sword and blurred frenzy is blatantly wrong. As I said in the post I don’t care how you feel about blood sigil, I have this other part as backup l want my money.

EremiteAngel.9765:

what is mtd?

/15necros

Trolling, yes? No? I wrote about it in the edit to the original post. Oh well. Maim the Disillusioned is a Grandmaster trait in Illusions. Each illusion that shatters and hits, including yourself for when you have IP, will apply two stacks of torment.

JustTrogdor.7892:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Bump. Kinda gonna keep bumping it until ANET addresses it or the forum mods tell me to stop.

While I think your cause is decent, if you are familiar with this forum you will notice that Anet very rarely responds to posts and suggestions. Bumping your thread like this will more than likely end up with it being closed instead of getting the response your are looking for.

Perhaps you should contact the forum specialist and see if they are willing to include your suggestion in their weekly report.

Can you explain more. I am not very familiar with this forum. What is a forum specialist?

witcher.3197:

Sadrien.3470:

witcher.3197:

Why am I even trying. Ok, MtD is the best build universe. It can even 1v5 teams. /thread

I offered a reasonable argument you are the one who is being unreasonable right now. I never said MtD was better just that it has the strengths listed above and you outright refuse to admit it can be any good, don’t even read my posts or respond as if you haven’t, and insult guilds as if they are a single entity of which all members are identical.

That comment wasn’t only meant for you, but the direction this thread was taking. I’ve had one too many conversations about MtD on this forum and I do not want to turn this thread inot another one that’s why I do not want to elaborate. Your points are wrong btw, but I know that I will never be able to convince you.

Edit: nvm, very brief response: it doesn’t “force” any cleansing, a warrior/ele doing simple roations and healing can negate you as a side effect, your attacks are mostly unrelyable and only strong in theory, your weapon skills and shatters are clunky, power shatter destroys MtD in a duel, and is just as dependent on stealth if not more as you don’t have access to instant defensive mehcanics granted by IP or the distortion from sword 2.

switcher please go back to being a highly biased admin for metabattle.com( which is an acceptable resource but only recruits closed-minded admins )

We are where we are because we value quality over quantity and aren’t biased. Last month I’ve archived 2 of my favorite builds (which means removing it from the working category/frontpage), how is that biased? I think we are open minded, but that doesn’t mean we worship everything you can kill an enemy with in very specific situations.

Fay.2357:

Metabattle.com, at least for mesmer, is just about as close to a complete joke as is possible to achieve.

100g if you find a mistake in a shatter build for Pvp that we have. If you can’t, you owe me 100g. Deal?

Deal

Perhaps you can assist me then with some quality assurance. In november of 2014 the build for traditional shatter was edited so that instead of sigil of battle, sigil of blood became the default sigil for offhand torch. That change remained until April of the following year. Both changes were performed by a user named Hanz. This user has performed ~80% of the revisions. Now to the present date sigil of blood has remained as a possible sigil variant.

This is and cannot ever be correct for sword torch on shatter.

Here why

• sigil of blood does half the damage of sigil of air, and this is only if blood crits. As air cannot crit you are looking at 50% chance per blood proc to do 50% damage of an air sigil. (ignoring the 5 second Icd on blood vs the 3 second Icd on air)

• in this build blood cannot heal more than 906 health per 9 second weapon swap cool down. This is outperformed by the sigil of leeching which will heal 973 and requires one proc.

• the sigil of blood only out damages leeching at 2 procs of the sigil by about 500 damage (and if both procs crit) and it only out heals after three proc. One immediately at at the start of the weapon swap, one five seconds in, and another five seconds later, assuming you didn’t swap the second the set came off of cool down.

Why is this such an erroneous addition to the build?

Sword torch is a melee set. Weapon sigils can only proc off of shatters and our own weapon/utility skill. So this means you have to be shattering or in melee range every five seconds you are in the set. The nature of sword torch does not allow you to consistently perform such an action so that use of the sigil would be considered useful. Don’t tell me you want tankiness, the armor section only uses berserker, and the sigil of leeching is a far better variant for this build.

But I want my 100 gold. And I know you might argue with my reasoning. So a simpler example of how metabattle.com has messed up even shatter builds. In that same build, in the section explaining sword. The author explains blurred frenzy as a second shorter cool down distortion. They even link to the distortion tool tip….

I want my money.

edit: This has been screenshotted. Don;t try to delete the post or tell me you were talking to Pyro only. You asking another commenter why they weren’t going for the prize is also screenshotted. You have my account name. And my in game name is Kentigem.

MailMail.6534:

I definitely think MtD would do exceedingly well using Chronomancer. The biggest loss I see here is that of shattered concentration. That being said, using Chrono instead of domination/inspiration/chaos will give the highest dps possible for a condi shatter build. Why? Simple:
Illusionary Reversion & Chronophantasm synergizes extremely well with Sharper Images & Confusing Combatants.

These skills are so “revolutionary” because it helps us to shatter without losing out on 50%+ of our overall dps. The ability to give a full shatter AND keep clones busting out bleeds/confusion is not to be underestimated.

Now, going into Chrono for this dps boost obviously means you take a concession somewhere else. Whether that be team/self sustain (Inspiration), self-defense (Chaos) or boon rip (Domination). It’s hard to say which is best. In fact, I think arguing over which is a pretty fruitless task, but it is my opinion that even with Domination being the “dps” line, you will get more mileage out of Chrono in this regard based simply on those two traits.

I’ll definitely be trying out Chrono/Illusions/Dueling, but I think giving up shattered concentration might be a hard pill to swallow for me.

I know what you mean. Especially with resistance being added.

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Oh my sweet sweet Pyro. Sweet darling Pyro. Viable and optimal are not the same word. Please stop confusing them. That goes for all of you.

• Learn what words mean.
• Stop assuming without valid textual evidence.
• Stop responding to singular untruths if you won’t comment also on the whole of the argument. (it stagnates the debate)

Is running shatter in pve viable: yes it will just be harder.
Is it optimal: no it is not, but why would you need to care about optimal in non competitive environments.

Really not that hard people.

Meh, I was responding in general to the spirit of the original question, not the letter.

Is shatter viable? Yes. Is it optimal? No. Was the original poster asking whether shatter is possible to run in PvE? No, they were asking about whether it’ll ever be a good and proper choice to do.

Ahgghhghhghhhhhhhhh. That is an explanation of what those words mean. I should have labeled it as an example. Regardless the title has an incorrect conception of the word viable. And you clearly still do.

Stop applying adjectives like good and proper to viable. You are talking about optimal use the word optimal. The poster uses the phrase “more viable”. More viable does not definitely mean optimal, they could just be asking if it’s easier to do in a future patch. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Oh my sweet sweet Pyro. Sweet darling Pyro. Viable and optimal are not the same word. Please stop confusing them. That goes for all of you.

• Learn what words mean.
• Stop assuming without valid textual evidence.
• Stop responding to singular untruths if you won’t comment also on the whole of the argument. (it stagnates the debate)

Edit: here is an example of correct uses of viable and optimal.
Is running shatter in pve viable: yes it will just be harder.
Is it optimal: no it is not, but why would you need to care about optimal in non competitive environments.

Really not that hard people.

You are a MtD build, pick two trait lines to pair with the Illusions line. Will you use Chronomancer? Why or why not?

Pros are faster shattering rate. Access to f5. Access to non traveler runes. Basically utility.

Cons are synergizes poorly with confusion. You lose access to any defensive tree. Being able to shatter many times in a row does not mean you will survive being visible that long.

How about the other trees?

Domination gives boon removal and the possibility for hybrid sinister build.

Dueling gives clone on dodge and extra bleed and confusion, as well as some defensive utility.

Chaos gives us the majority of our damage mitigation traits and PU.

Inspiration gives us the majority of our healing and condition removal.

What do you guys think? What combo will your MtD be and how do you compensate for not having another line?

Edit: MtD means maim the disillusioned, it is a grandmaster in Illusions. Therefore all answers should assume they can only select two trait lines because the third has to be Illusions.

I was a graduate of the shift in wvw to PU builds, and I already adored staff. Now I play it because it fits my playstyle.

Xaylin.1860:

Err… I didn’t think this would be that hard to understand…

Regardless of how many defiance bars we will see in HoT Mesmers will be more reliant on interrupt traits because there are fewer alternatives after the rework. Therefore, making interrupt traits work against defiance bars is an even more pressing issue for Mesmers unless we don’t want to see build diversity being harshly limited in PvE.

Not sure how to say it any differently.

Ohhh, I see, you use interrupt traits in pve? That’s why your statement was making no sense. Having more uninterruptable enemies is not a problem if the general pve builds don’t use interrupt traits to begin with. As I see with the change you had a lot of traits you wouldn’t use, and now you have a lot you can’t use.

No real difference.

And you gain access to four more trait points. Perhaps you could use real examples rather than hypotheticals, we have the full list of traits. Because not being able to use interrupt and having clone death disappear does not seem a pressing issue. Also fewer alternatives is a very cheap way of saying that some traits have been combined and some have been removed. So what who cares, unless important builds can’t translate over to HoT, why does it matter to the average player who isn’t trying to make a artisan build.

Please come up with a real example, because I think you are looking at the trait changes as literal +-

Chaos Archangel.5071:

You know, Silv sorta has a point.

Mesmers are pretty good in low-mid tier PvP. It’s not the class, but the cele meta and thieves that keep us down.

If you wanna see a class with lousy skills/mechanics go take a gander at Necro.

@Silv: your opinion may change if you go play a thief though =P

Kitten it Chaos you had me and then you had to add that part in at the end about necros. What necros have/had was lousy traits. I don’t see anything wrong with their skills or mechanics.

Xaylin.1860:

Because there is a) a higher number of traits plus b) a lower percentage of interrupt traits and c) the option to pick traits of lower tiers?

Domination and Duelling would have rather unappealling option on certain tiers if interrupt traits were not working in PvE. I mean… what are you going to pick in those lines? Shatter traits? Yey.

Arent you under the impression that the defiance bar will be added to creatures in HoT that would not have the defiant buff if they were in Gw2 now? I don’t see how that makes any sense. Interrupts don’t work on bosses now and they wont in HoT. I don’t see the change.

Mogar.9216:

Just stop replying to this thread. The guy is a troll nothing more. How can you have a rational debate with someone who uses this as argument for moa doesn’t miss often, and I quote :

“I remember 2 times, where Moa failed. One was on a ranger, who just avoided it with a random dodge. The other one was on a necromancer, when a guardian had blinded me.”

Really …your limited play with moa is a good enough argument to counter the experience of the whole mesmer community , eye roll….

Here I will make this sound nicer.

Inductive reasoning requires the use of empirical data to confirm. This is because it is based in observation and it forms the creation of theories. Deductive does not require empirical data to confirm, it is based on theories. Inductive is wrong until enough empirical data has been gathered to make it theoretically right. Deductive is right until proven wrong. Good example is the theory of gravity. It cannot be proven but we operate under the premise that it is true. Because we are under a premise all valid conclusions we make from gravity are also true.

Where do you fit in TyPin? Well you aren’t trying to gives us reasonable veracity for gravity or evolution. You just want to talk about Lich. Well unfortunately until you provide enough statistical data, your observations are not enough, you would have to poll a statistically significant part of the player base.

TyPin.9860:

Fay said:

Fay.2357:

Typin, all the proof I need of lich being able to decimate things in a 1v1 is that it does 3.5k-6k on its autoattacks.

What he says here is, that only because it can do high damage proves that he decimates things 1v1. You can argue as you want, but that is no proof. It is, as I have already said, a deduction. One can even argue if it is actually valid. The premise might be true, I am not arguing that, but the conjunction of premises and conclusion is not complete simply due to the existence of what you call “damage control”.

Kiting and dodging AAs reduces the dealt damage to 0… This is also true and is something Fay did not take into consideration in his “proof”. With his statement he reacted to what I said:

TyPin.9860:

However, the opposite claim, that Lich just defeats everything 1v1 when not Moa’d is also a claim I have seen no prove of yet.

There is no need to differentiate between inductive and deductive reasoning, when both statements aren’t proof. I knew that my “kiting proof” wasn’t actually a proof at all. And that it is inductive doesn’t change the fact, that deductive reasoning is no proof either (although generally accepted as the more valid/usefull reasoning).

@Topic:
First, I did not suggest Lich form to be an exception from other transforms. My suggestion was for all transforms. The peg on which to hang the topic simply was Lich Form. The only issue on top of my head I know, where elites can completely be nullified, is Moa and Moa in interaction with other Transforms. First, by a simple dodge/block/blind or whatever Moa can be completely nullified, seconds by Moa any Transform can be completely nullified. Yes anyone can be Moa’d, but in the current situation of the game, Moa is reserved by most players for Lich and other transforms. Lich, as has been told by several Mesmers, is often the only reason they even slot Moa.

The Necromancer currently is better of taking less useful elites like Flesh Golem or even just let the elite slot empty. Then he might get Moa’d less, for less Mesmers will slot Moa, if Lich wasn’t commonly used, or the slotted Moa might be even better used on that pesky Shoutbow Warrior^^. With Lich in most situations Necromancers in matches involving Mesmers (an any match I had so far as Powermancer, when the enemy team had a Mesmer, they used Moa) are a liability to their team. My idea was to reduce this liability factor.This was at least my initial thought process, which was actually just a casual thought I had and on which I asked for input… I am actually not that convinced any more myself.

The discussion although developed very unfriendly with the first post already calling out for me to “stop thinking”. It generally didn’t get better. And I honestly was shocked how Lich form is perceived by Mesmers, because I as main Mesmer never perceived Lich that threatening.

Also reminder to everyone “decimate” can refer to lowering by a factor of 10, find a better word.

Okay, philosophy student here. Hoping I wouldn’t have to do this.

1. If Lich hits it does 3.5-6 k damage.
2. If the general health of a player is less than 30k
3. Then Lich will seriously damage or kill players it hits at least 5 times unmitigated.

This is unquestionable deductive logic that requires no testing because it is math.

You seem to think that Pyro is arguing in the face of possible damage mitigation. He is not. He clearly says “being able to.” Perhaps this is just a simple misunderstanding of English. Ability does potential, but not reality. I have the ability to hug every tree I see.

1. If Kentigem has a functioning healthy body.
2. If the tree is publicly and safely accessible, and is physically huggable.
3. Then Kentigem has the ability to hug public and safely accessible trees.

You would not then argue in the the face of this logic that the tree could fall on me preventing the hug. Because then my body is no longer healthy. And when you include scenarios as counterexamples I can easily modify the conclusion and premise.
The only true counterexample is one that makes the conclusion irrevocably false even with modification. And nothing about this argument means that I hug every tree I see.

Remember, can and will are two different things. But we base many actions in society on the potential for cans to turn into wills.

Also fun game. At no point does Pyro use the word everything in the context of “destroying everything.” Your entire argument about needing proof for his comment is based around a comment he did not make.

I got the whole worllllld in my hannnnnnd.

Xaylin.1860:

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

1) Any time a CC reduces the blue bar and the enemy is currently using a skill, this should count as an interrupt for traits.
2) Any time a CC is used while an enemy is using a skill (regardless of break bar status) this counts as an interrupt.

This should really happen for PvE since otherwise at least 1/4 of the available traits would be useless after the rework. Right now, those traits might also not work but you got more alternatives.

If ANet doesn’t get it done… meh.

How do we have more alternatives now?

SPNKr.6208:

It is definitely still possible. However as others have said there is now a delay between portal usages. This means you pretty much need to place your portal immediately as you start the stomp, or you won’t be able to make it back in time. I will try to put up a video later.

Nooooo. Don’t do this. You must place the exit before not after you start the stomp. Portal has a delayed activation.

TyPin.9860:

Daniel Handler.4816:

The argument about 1v1 arose because people are using how weak Lich is or isn’t for why it does or does not deserve a hard counter. Those in favour of full counters generally find it to be formidable, and those against find it weak. I am generally in the line of thinking that equality in skills is based on their base CD (initiative and energy are not comparable to CD at the moment). Therefore Moa and Lich being equal in CD are equal in effect.

Uh well, with my suggestion Moa still would hard counter Lich itself. The suggestion of keenlam wouldn’t counter Lich completely. Yet it got more sympathizers.

My actual argument why Moa Morph should not transform a Lich to a Moa but only back to being Necromancer is neither based on the strengths of nor on other counter measures to Lich. When the Mesmer/ the Mesmer’s team is capable, the Moa’d Lich (as any Moa’d target) would basically be dead. This not only counters Lich Form, it also renders the Necromancer, if he uses his elite, a liability to his team. But the only useful elites of Necros are transforms.

I do not actually base my argument on the premise that Lich could be countered by other means. It was an argument that came up against my suggestion: Because Lich could not be countered by other means, Moa should remain the same. Although the effect to Lich would not even be change by my suggestion. It would only effect what happens, after Lich was already countered.

So logical arguments based on a mathematical proof require no experimentation.I also think you are confusing inductive vs deductive reasoning..

deductive:
Lich form does enough damage to kill a player in 1-5 attacks
That is the conclusion and its based on premises that are all mathematically true, e.g how how much damage it does and how much health a player can have. It will always be correct because all its premises are correct, and the conclusion follows from the premises.

inductive:
Lich form can be dodged or countered
That is the conclusion and its based on circumstantial evidence. Just like the claim that you can die from a heart attack, one should not assume that ALL Lich’s can be dodged or countered, just as you would not assume all people with heart attacks will die.

That is why we complained about your lack of proof. Inductive reasoning requires statistical analysis, deductive does not.

As for what your “point” really is. I must remind you that anyone Moaed is rendered useless to the team. Absolutely no reason to give Necro special treatment, they aren’t the only classes with Transform.

Basandra Skye.4031:

The reason I suggested moving the minimap is because that’s really the ONLY thing that excessive boons would impact.

Well actually that isn’t true. If you have quest data in that region from having all your dailies listed, you cant read the data on a boon. Anything that goes into that region is impacted by excessive boons.

They made a one second CD between portal use as a nerf. But portal stomping can still be achieved 100%.

1. have Portal Entre set
2. stand next to downed
3. set Portal Exeunt
4. wait 1/2 second
5. press f or whatever button interact is set to
6. spam the button until the stomp is completed

The argument about 1v1 arose because people are using how weak Lich is or isn’t for why it does or does not deserve a hard counter. Those in favour of full counters generally find it to be formidable, and those against find it weak. I am generally in the line of thinking that equality in skills is based on their base CD (initiative and energy are not comparable to CD at the moment). Therefore Moa and Lich being equal in CD are equal in effect.

TyPin.9860:

Fay.2357:

TyPin.9860:

Fay.2357:

Typin, all the proof I need of lich being able to decimate things in a 1v1 is that it does 3.5k-6k on its autoattacks.

That’s no proof. You are being hypocritical in your criteria if you mean that seriously. Than I say: Proof of not being able to decimate everything in 1v1 is that you can kite the AAs. When you judge the things I say very critically, then do it with your own assumptions too please. At best what you do is a deduction. Necro in DS can do similar damage and it’s projectiles even have homing. So does DS Necro now also decimate everything in 1v1?

Death shroud necro has less hp, the projectile moves slower, the casting time for the projectile is enormous, and has no stability. The two are not comparable.

That being said…DS necro can do similar things to lich. I’ve been 1shot on my ele by a single life blast from a DS necro. The life blast did 5k, air + fire did 4kish, and then chill of death procced for the remaining 4k of my health. The difference is that DS has counters due to the slow windup, no stability, and less health.

I do know all of that. You seemed to have missed my point (probably intentionally…).

Except that isn’t comparable proof. One is objective and mathematical and uses the coefficients of the skill, it requires no video. The other is subjective. You can’t always dodge the AA, but a Lich blast will always inflict damage in a high mathematical range if it hits. If you respond “but it doesn’t always hit”, you need to show me the probabilities of how often it hits. Again requiring a video.

Silv.9207:

Fay.2357:

Silv.9207:

With a Slow skill, you don’t need ever a high defensive build.

Uhm.

Silv.9207:

If the enemy is afflicted by slow you can evade easy it’s attack with dodge, and in some cases just by move away.

…you do realize dodges are limited, right? Having the reaction to dodge something doesn’t mean you’re actually able to dodge it.

Silv.9207:

(more than actually is. And actually is one of the best classes in spvp, with a good dps build).

all of my wat

I know you’re not, but please say you’re just trolling…

Actually I play mesmer only a little, but I don’t need a defensive build because I’ve already clone swaps, hide, high range weapons, blur and teleport. Why I need more defence than that if the enemy hit me 50% slower? It’s dps is reduced by 50%!

We can not have always a dodge or vigor, but we have a lot of skills that interrupt the enemy, granting us the chance to do it even better, adding slow to the enemy that we interrupt, making it really suffer of slow for all the duration of the figth, while we can have quickness up very often.

And about the thing that Mesmer is one of the powerful classes in spvp, it’s true. You can not belive that, but I can deal 15k of damage to a single enemy before he can hit me, more or less in 5 seconds. (and more damage against a light user with berserker like a necro). Then I hide or clone swap (depending on the weapon I chose to use, if staff or sword/torch), or active blur with Sword, dealing damage, or Distortion with F4 (with the right build I’ve 4 sec of distortion and always 1 if I’ve no active clones) or simply active Moa Form.

Yes, mesmer is really a bad class. Never play mesmer. It’s a total failure. We need more buffs like constant projectile reflection, easy quickness and slow all the time on the enemy to survive because actually we can’t even kill a necro!

There’s some classes that can kill a mesmer “easy” but, ehy, you can’t pretend to be unkillable! And I’ve seen mesmers kill 2 enemy at the same time. There’s a video of a mesmer killing 4 enemy in spvp. They’re 100% noobs, but ehi, they’re in 4 vs 1. I’ve lost the link but if I find it I will post it here.

Seriously, if you think that the mesmer isn’t one of the best classes in spvp you have to learn to play.

And with that specializzation I hope that also nther classes obtain something like that because if not I really will make it my main tspvp class.

Pyro go get a compress, I can help with this. If we rank the best classes based on their frequency of use in tournament play we get a top four. Elementalist, Guardian, Thief, Warrior, you decide the number one. So whatever class is the fifth best class is at a 60 percent, (assuming each class on a five person team is unique). Any class that ranks 6-8 is failing.

Calliope.8675:

Excuse me… raises hand I would like to reiterate that I have successfully survived a Lich attack once. I did have three clones up to pop for distortion. I did have decoy off cool down. I had mass invis off cool down for use as well. I had chaos storm ready for use and blurred frenzy… Everything was ready for me to use to save myself and I burnt practically all of them to do it. I can’t say fighting a Lich will go in the mesmer’s favor every time. It won’t. I’m pretty sure at the point that the necro popped Lich I was at 75% HP. I popped my heals to make sure I was at full HP after the first hit and I was kiting on point. Granted, if the necro’s team had been there and I wasn’t 1v1’ing the necro, I probably would have had to peel or just die. In matches, everything is situational. Yeah, if I’m caught at 25% hp (with no defenses) and the necro pops Lich with the intent to focus me down first I am probably going to die.

So, in ideal circumstances, I think a mesmer could hold their own in a 1v1 with a Lich’d necro. With the same sentiment as the thieves, if I don’t see you coming and you get the drop on me…

That sounds absolutely awful. I wouldn’t call it surviving if you have to cut off your leg to escape the bear trap. This is a perfect example of why damage mitigation is not as good as countering. It expends far more resources and only makes you safer in the short term.

TyPin.9860:

However, the opposite claim, that Lich just defeats everything 1v1 when not Moa’d is also a claim I have seen no prove of yet.

I am casually interested how you document something fighting “everything” 1v1.

Apparently there is an ability in the graphic section of settings to increase the size of the entire interface. This may be a temporary fix. And this was not a remark from ANET but advice from another player.

ASP.8093:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Remember that with Chronomancer Moa can have a double decrease in CD and you end up with two Moa every 90 seconds.

…. Are you sure that chrono can stack even remotely close to this much CD reduction?

Very. 20 percent traited reduction from whatever category it becomes, and then permanent alacrity. Means that maintaining a good rhythm for a fight lasting two minutes leads to two Moa at start and two Moa 1min30 in.

Also really important is what the difference between counter and damage control is.

With a counter:

• no part of the desired effect of the skill occurs
• ex. with feedback from the instance the skill is cast I own the projectile and all its effects and the caster does not benefit in any way.

With damage control

• parts of the skill occur but damage is prevented
• ex. with black powder/whatever I perma blind a Mesmer as they are shattering. I am not harmed but the mesmer still gets the benefits of having shattered.

What this means is that reflects are not counters for Lich. They can still do other stuff.

Basandra Skye.4031:

Daniel Handler.4816:

One of my Mesmer comrades has poor eyesight. It makes it difficult for them to tell what charge their Mantra is on. The request was that an additional charge number could be placed on the skill icon itself so it would be easier to see. There would be no confusion because a cooldown ticks, and colours the skill icon black until the cd finishes.

That was their request.

My request is that this is not going far enough to just change one skill. The entire UI should have some option for resizing or changing to accommodate not only those with visual disabilities, but also the players who simply find some aspects intrusive. For instance when I have too many buffs I have to decrease the size of my map in order to see them all.

So the questions for this thread are both for anet and for the player base.

1. (For anet) Is there anything in development to assist players with visual disabilities?
2. (For both) What about your gaming experience has been affected because you were unable to resize or move aspects of the UI?

Graphic options gives you interface size options. Setting “interface size” to “larger” makes it pretty kitten gigantic. Have them give that a try. Out of curiosity, do they not wear eyeglasses? Sometimes that can make all the difference. Personally, I cant focus on anything beyond roughly 12 inches beyond my face, which means without glasses, I’m functionally blind.

As for your own UI issues, drag the minimap to the top corner of the screen, and try that for a while. I’ve done that, and not gone back. Frankly it’d be nice if we could hide the minimap.

I’m not sure setting the size for the entire UI is the best solution. You yourself said it makes the UI kitten gigantic, which would be super unwelcome to someone who only has problems with the size of a specific part of the UI.
I’ll ask them about how severe their disability is and recommend that temporary fix. But a reminder that
not all visual disabilities can be fixed with glasses
and not all people can afford correct prescriptions, I am fortunate to have insurance but my lenses still cost me around 200 to 300 dollars. I can maintain 20/20 easily, others may be less fortunate. Also remember the issue isn’t the minimap, the issue is that boons and buffs can extend from the health circle to the right edge of the screen interfering with whatever is there.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

I think there is a slight difference in our definitions that make it hard to implement.
The engineer trait is on knockback. An ele trait (lightning rod) is on CC. Mesmer traits are specifically on interrupts. (Also 1 warrior and ranger trait) This makes timing an important component. This isn’t “wanted to see how it works on Engi.” These are mechanically different things where the engineer/ele don’t require timing but most mesmer traits do. It’s why the domination minor trait still works for mesmers but the rest don’t.

The easy fix would be to make all mesmer traits on CC instead of interrupt but that would make things brain-dead easy and ruin PvP balance. The blue bar alone doesn’t guarantee the enemy is doing anything (see guarded vs unguarded above). Furthermore, breaking the bar won’t count for an interrupt because the stun seems to be self inflicted so it won’t proc mesmer traits. A few ways to implement better changes;
1) Any time a CC reduces the blue bar and the enemy is currently using a skill, this should count as an interrupt for traits.
2) Any time a CC is used while an enemy is using a skill (regardless of break bar status) this counts as an interrupt.

Thanks for testing this. Also aren’t they giving a breakbar to one of the classes as their specialization? I think it defeats the purpose of the breakbar if interrupt traits can proc through it. Our interrupts are stronger than the other classes. Fully traited we slow, immobilize, weaken, damage, gain might, gain quickness. Others classes can’t compete with that, they have less precise CC available to them, so some of their traits become on CC application to avoid being worthless.

Calliope.8675:

Please, no more argumentative replies. More thoughts on Moa vs Lich, of course, are welcome as well as feedback.

Personally, I like keenlam’s idea, however I’d want a duration increase of Moa to 15 seconds as well as a partial cool down decrease, maybe to 120 seconds, since we added time to the Moa duration.

Remember that with Chronomancer Moa can have a double decrease in CD and you end up with two Moa every 90 seconds. If we lowered the base to 120 and increased duration to 15, you could Moa someone two times every 60 second. This would make it possible to have someone Moaed for 50% of any fight. I think necro would like that even less.

TyPin.9860:

WARNING
There is sarcasm hidden in this post
Finder deserves a cooky

Windwalker.7421:

No contradiction at all. I didn’t even entertain your suggestion to change it, because it is based on the completely false premise that Moa is even close to comparable in effectiveness as Lich. If either of the two needs a nerf, it sure ain’t Moa.

So none of my statements are addressing your suggestions, but rather are a response to the ridiculous notion of nerfing Moa in order to help Lich, which is clearly the far better of the two Elites.

Why do you take my trolling so serious, when I even say I trolled? Rofl. Someone feels to overly justify himself. Afraid your point isn’t valid enough so you have to even respond to troll posts?

Nonetheless. Since you feed me: My original suggestion completely counters Lich. And it helps the Mesmer, being protected from the ultra strong Moa, which for some reason turns at 50% Mesmer health into a killer machine. Or if the Mesmer is, for some impossible reason after casting Moa from stealth, still over 50% health, the lack of Moa helps the Mesmer kill the Necro. Cuz without Moa he cannot simply charge in unspeakable distances with #5.

I only wanna help the poor Mesmers and protect them from the repercussions of Moa. When infact they have no other means to counter the total OPness of unbeatable Lich.

This post makes me sad and annoyed. If you want to broadcast your opinions perhaps a bulletin board will be more useful, it will talk back to you less and doesn’t mind any vitriol. I understand that this is the Internet and you think this is fun, but what does it do for all the people who just want to have casual conversations without crap like this.