Guild Wars 2

The out of lore explanation is that the asura look too child like so a-net felt uncomfortable with it. It was stated before release.

An in lore explanation may be that since the body types are basically the same, there is really no mystery so “sexy-ness” wouldn’t have strong ground to develop on.

Lostwingman.5034:

Dustfinger.9510:

All this to say an attack isn’t possible. But we know an attack was already being planned and the charr had intimate information about the layout and plans of the city. We know the charr were planning to attack. And not just attack small settlements. We already know for a fact that they were planning an attack on the capitol itself. And we know the charr have no problems waging wars and building resources that take time.

We know an attack was being planned but do we even know how serious they considered the plan? It might have just been a contingency for down the line when such an attack is feasible.

Possibly. But it seemed to be a plan that was already being geared up for. The warband that was creating and testing the engine in order to be able to compete with kryta on the water were also the ones that had scouted and mapped the capitol.

So it is entirely possible that each warband was designated to come up with some new strategy. And that those strategies were reviewed by higher command as to whether or not the charr would designate resources to them but this strategy apparently made it past the drawing board into implementation. Even if it was the beginning stages of that implementation.

edit: Here we are. It does appear it was still in the experimentation phase. .

“The Iron legion’s original goal was to create a naval unit that could challenge Kryta for controle of the Sea of Sorrows. Maybe make an assault on Lion’s Arch” SoS p 75

But it was still a solid plan that was being engaged.

Sykox looked uncomfortable. "Er….. Thought I’d mentioned this before. We studied the architectural plans of Lion’s Arch in the fahrar, when I was a child. The imperator of the Iron Legion was planning for our generation to assault and seize the city. You know….. when the charr were done conquering Ascalon. SoS p. 225

And it appears I was wrong about them planning the assault at the same time. They knew they needed to be able to focus their resources in order to do it. Also, other warbands scouted and mapped the city. This one just studied it for it’s applied purpose.

edit 2: Some interesting tidbits.

That’s my design. The Imperitor of the Iron Legion wanted us to push the boundaries so I did. Took one of the experimental engines we’ve been working on and built her into the brig. Coal-foddered pistons propel a turbine pushing us forward. With that, plus the wind in her jibs, we’ll go half again as fast as one of your human galleons. We can turn 90 degrees and not lose speed. Doesn’t matter what direction the wind is coming from-we can strike out with it or against it ans still make ground" The big charr’s smile faded. “Unfortunately, the Havoc’s the only one of her kind. We were out of harbor on a test run of the engine when the wave hit; that’s the only reason we survived at all.” p. 75-76

“See, I was raised in a fahrar-that’s like a cub training school-near the border of Kryta. We spent a lot of time studying the people who lived in Lion’s Arch” p. 83

Lostwingman.5034:

I recall that interview, I also recall there being a bit of controversy over how it went with GW1. Or maybe I’m working 60 hour weeks too much and my memory doesn’t want to exist on this plane.

You guys are remembering it right. A-net said every one is born with inherent magic ability. The controversy was that in GW1 not every one was. but the explanation is that due to the ED’s bleeding magic back into the world, everyone s born with it now.

And they equated learning a new type of magic in addition to one you already learned as forgetting everything you already know and earning another degree.

edit: “The citizens of Tyria have ready access to this flow of magic from a very young age. They are, after all, as much a natural part of the world as are the dragons. There are as many individual ways to tap into that magic as there are people in Tyria. Some follow the methods taught to them by mentors or teachers. Others devise their own special style and relationship with magic. Some use items to enhance or channel their powers, such as the Zephyrites who use their crystals to access the Aspects.”

“only the most powerful have the time and energy to do this. It’s like getting two doctorate degrees, one in medicine and one in engineering. Few have the time to do this, and usually, an individual doesn’t want to turn her back on everything she’s already learned to start a new magical discipline. She’d much rather continue advancing her knowledge in the discipline she’s invested decades in. Some, however, may dabble and experiment with specific spells. If a master elementalist can find a mesmer to teach her to produce an illusion, then she may explore ways to combine them. Most professions keep their secrets close to their chests though. And, the danger of a conflict between magical energies and thus, an explosion, is very real.”

http://esprits-dorr.fr/node/261

kasoki.5180:

How is this a reply to what I’ve said? You didn’t adress anything that I have said. I gave you alternatives to how you can integrate a player character into a community and you didn’t even acknowledge it.

Also, why are you twisting my words? I have never said that all the possible options should be given. Nor did my words even imply it. I have said that only a minimum should be given which allows your player to break out of the negative stereotypes he/she doesn’t wish to be associated with.

There are a near infinite amount of things they can do to allow your character to break steriotypes. It seems you only care about the one that is suited to your personal RP. A-net can’t cater to everyones RP and they won’t randomly decide to focus on yours.

kasoki.5180:

‘Zeitgeist’ doesn’t mean that all individuals think/behave the same on the issue. It means that there is a trend. Trend =/= everyone.

Right. A-net can’t cater to everyone’s RP. So they represent the tendancies and any one of the near infinite deviations can’t really be addressed.

Argument how it’s not easy to implement in game doesn’t work in this case. Why? Because this was a quest which already included multiple options. And you were denied one of those on the basis of race. In this particular option, you have forced me to RP as a rascist Asura

Why not skelk? Or harpies? Or any thing else that wasn’t chosen as an option?

Not to mention how this game is full of conversations that have absolutely no impact on the game. Giving you opportunity to simply say how this is not because you are an Asura, since Asuras have a tendency to dislike skritt is no large feat to acomplish.

There is nothing problematic with race lore, there is nothing problematic with showing certain trends within a certain society. Compulsory rascism and conformity is problematic and should be reserved for those who wish to roleplay it that way.

This is what I’m trying to argument here. If you force me to choose a certain behavior simply because I belong to a certain race, that is a bad writing.

When you force me into a choice, and then explain it with ‘well, you are a member of race X, so you MUST feel that way’, that is a terrible writing. That is a terrible perception of individuals and society and their relation.

Again, before you turn it into how this obviously means that they have to include every possible option, it isn’t about quantity of choices but rather about the explanation and argumentation behind them.

And any option that isn’t included will harbor the same argument.

draxynnic.3719:

To the first:

I think you’re still grossly underestimating how hard it would be to place a credible siege on Lion’s Arch from sea.
////on Lion’s Arch that would have a more decisive influence on the war than the destruction of every Krytan settlement on the coast of the Sea of Sorrows (okay, with the sole known exception of Garrenhoff, and today that’s Krytan only according to the map) is insane.

draxynnic.3719:

On self-powered ships: Yes, the charr could build more, but see my above comments about that being an undertaking. Every engine that goes in a ship is not going to power some other war machine. Every plank of timber… same. Every worker, every crewman, and so on… you get the picture. And all this takes time.

And yes, you’re right in that there seems to be only one djinn – but experience from building that ship could have gone to others. If Kryta had remained a naval power, maybe they would have figured out the same magic that powered the xebecs, or found a way to power a ship with conventional elementals (a dime a dozen) rather than sapient djinn. Maybe once they get notice that the charr are active on the Sea of Sorrows they’ll start posting elementalists on every warship to gain the same advantage by controlling the winds and currents to their advantage.

Even if we assume that Kryta only ever has one magic ship and the charr do build a fleet of powered ships before launching their invasion… you’re still going to need to get enough charr soldiers over there to lay an effective siege. You’re probably fitting about 200 charr soldiers per ship, by historical figures (not including crew, but while crew might join in on raids, you’re probably not going to want them to abandon their ship for the duration of a siege). Factor in losses along the way (the Krytan navy is certainly going to inflict some by contesting the landing at least unless caught napping entirely, and if you think they will be, then I’m going to counterpropose a surprise siege over the Shiverpeaks again) and you’re going to need a LOT of ships. My suspicion is that while the Legions thought it was worth sending a scout out, they were never going to look at the intel and decide “Oh, how about we throw a massive gamble into besieging the Krytan capital!”. They’re more likely to go “how about we raid the flow of trade with Cantha, possibly hit a few of the smaller, less-defended settlements, and force the Krytans to spread out their forces to defend their sea lanes and ports. With five ships, including solders and crew that’ll be two thousand charr – thanks to the engines, if they can avoid engaging the Krytan navy and keep raiding, that will force the Krytans to post three or four thousand soldiers at every settlement along the coast to protect them, which means we’ll reduce their available manpower to send to Ebonhawke by a lot more than it costs us.”

All this to say an attack isn’t possible. But we know an attack was already being planned and the charr had intimate information about the layout and plans of the city. We know the charr were planning to attack. And not just attack small settlements. We already know for a fact that they were planning an attack on the capitol itself. And we know the charr have no problems waging wars and building resources that take time.

At the bottom line, though, some very simple logic is against you.

Kryta devastated by the Great Tsunami, losing all trade with Cantha as well most of the magical knowledge contained within Lion’s Arch, and Risen destroying the southern half of Kryta -> Ebonhawke holds.

Kryta not devastated by the Great Tsunami and remaining at full strength -> ?

If you honestly think the latter is more likely to lead to “Ebonhawke falls”, you’re dreaming.

As was already stated, krytas navy was hurt by the tsunami. krytas land forces remained intact. But let’s look at your logic. Krya sacrifices wave after wave of troops into the meat grinder simply to repel the charr from EH. But somehow, without that kind of support, EH would have faired no worse. That sounds more like a dream than anything. What was the purpose of kryta helping at all?

draxynnic.3719:

Sure, they had no decisive victories, but they were able to push the charr away from the walls of Ebonhawke at the time, which they largely weren’t able to later. (Incidentally, I’d also point out that I’ve seen no evidence that charr tactics were really much better – the charr victories after the Searing basically boiled down to the charr having more meat to throw into the grinder.)

On the other hand, Ebonhawke continued to hold until the truce, despite Kryta’s land area, and likely overall power as well, being cut in half.

The balancing factor is that the charr were likely able to be more focused on fighting humans at the time. They had the ghosts to deal with, yes, but the Flame Legion behaved itself at least for a time before launching a counter-revolution, and the ogre and harpy migrations are a relatively recent thing. Now, I’m not saying that this would necessarily have lead to humanity winning that war rather than it ending in a stalemate – however, in a hypothetical Zhatan-less scenario, I really don’t see any way humanity could have been worse off short of a lucky decapitation strike. After all, between the tsunami and Risen assaults, Kryta lost basically everything that was practical to attack by sea – I don’t think it’s reasonable to think that even if the charr dispatched a fleet of WW1 dreadnoughts that they could have done significantly more damage to Kryta than Zhaitan did.

That was essentially krytas tactics in supporting EH as well. They threw krytan soldiers into the meant grinder simply to repel the charr. kryta lost much of it’s naval resources in zaitains attack. But they were supporting EH largely with their land based resources, so those wouldn’t have changed …….. unless the charr did something like attack the capitol of kryta and lay siege to the royal family, causing krytas land based resources to pull abandon EH and defend their own crown.

They wouldn’t have needed to have done more damage than zaitan. Simply by beginning an assault on kryta, they would have changed the game board. No longer would EH have been supported by a fully functioning land based army with all of krytas resources at it’s disposal, the way it had been.

granted we don’t know how much the harpies and ogres and FL were really a big factor. maybe they built their strength up and finally migrated at the right time or maybe they moved in once peace was reached due to the fact that there was a power vacuum left by the lack of a military machine moving through the area.

Possibly the FL was only able to make this kind of a comeback once peace was reached and a lot of charr in favor of the war decided to join them. I don’t see how we could draw any conclusions about x-factors like that. So, while not a guaranteed overwhelming victory for the charr, the hard facts we do know have them looking pretty good.

They simply had more resources, to spread out and were in a better position to wage war. EH only held because they had two kingdoms entire resources focused focused on one front. The charr were able to plan an attack on Krtya and that would have dramatically stunted a whole kingdoms support to EH. Which needed that support to survive. While the charr could afford to wage a constant offensive war for centuries and claim all major victories.

draxynnic.3719:

That would be a logistical nightmare to pull off.

The charr weren’t winning a siege against Ebonhawke when they controlled all the land around it. In your scenario, they’d be trying to lay siege against an enemy city in the heart of the enemy nation, where a relieving army could come from any direction to lift the siege or ///

That’s the sort of thing you need naval superiority to even have a chance of pulling off. A few self-powered ships – particularly since the Krytans had their own self-powered ship under construction, albeit powered by magic – just aren’t going to make the difference.

The difference here is that EH was being supported by a big kingdom with all it’s resources in tact. When you start besieging the castle, the machine that was Kryta support suddenly isn’t as effective. By taking LA you take the port. That means you are able to blockade human navel fleets from LA and it forces kryta to need a supply chain themselves. And defense is always easier than offense. So taking LA allows the charr to take up a defensive position against the rrest of Kryta while the ktyta leadership is holed up and cut off from the rest of krytas forces. We can say that the siege of EH wasn’t successful but it ignores the fact that all major victories in the entire war were accomplished by the charr. With facts like that, a prolonged war with the charr means that a human loss is eventually inevitable. because no matter how long the humans hold the charr off, anther major victory is going to come sometime. And then again some time later. Until peace is reached or humans lose. Or some dues ex machine saves humanity.

Yes, the allied legions recognise that magic is useful/// Flame Legion magic is highly focused and while Flame Legion shamans may be useful for burning other ships to the waterline, I don’t think they’d be much use for keeping a ship mobile. Without them, though, all the sources point to humans having the advantage when it comes to magic – an advantage that charr developed technology to counter.

Your saying humans use more magic. That’s absolutely true. What I’m saying is that charr also have their own majic. Just not as much as humans do. So while humans have an advantage, it isn’t as huge an advanatage as was made out to be.

Except at the time, there was only one. There was also one ship under construction in Kryta that was powered by magic. Sure, if it wasn’t for Zhaitan’s rise, the charr could have built more engine-powered ships… but the Krytans might also have continued work on magic-powered ships if Kryta had remained a naval power. Furthermore, see my point above about how if you’re trying to supply a besieging force by sea, you lose the advantage of unpredictability.

There was only one test engine. And it’s purpose was to allow charr to compete in naval affairs The charr create technology to distribute throughout charr society. That was the purpose of the test engine. Now do we know that the test engine had anything to do with the plans to invade LA? No. But we do know that the same warband was working on both projects at the same time so it’s a pretty good chance that the two are related. The plan may very well have been to attack the capitol of kryta only after the chrr had an engine powered fleet to do it.

Now in order for kryta to make more magic ships they need some sort of steady supply of djinn willing to be bound to a whole fleet of ships. We don’t know if a resource like that was even available in any large supply. Kryta had a magic ship but it was a very specialized ship. It followed the theme of humans artisan trend while the charr had an option that was definitely mass producible.

The games lore makes it so that both guardian and thief are equally fit for both races. Charr has Ash legion which focusses it’s tactics by using thieves more but all Legions use all classes. And all societies have their rogues and scoundrels including the sylvari. And guardian is one of the few classes that really has any lore but in that lore it is stated that it fits both humans and charr equally so sylvari would have no problems at all with the guardian class.

The only lore issue (if it can be called an issue) is with any class is that engineer technology came from the charr. But the lore of it is that since everyone has seen it’s effectiveness, all major races have adopted the class to some degree.

Story wise, the classes don’t affect our story.

CureForLiving.5360:

Dustfinger.9510:

There’s an asura that has no interest in ‘science’.

“There is no profit in the eternal alchemy” – basically every Asura merchant.
So I’d say there is a lot more than just an Asura not interested in science.

I think what those merchants are saying is that according to the EA, there is ultimately no concept of profit. Like the laws of energy transference. There is a distinct pause in between the words ‘profit’ and ‘in’. And they accentuate the word ‘is’. So what they are actually saying is, “There IS no profit… in the Eternal Alchemy”. They aren’t saying that there is no profit in subscribing to the Eternal Alchemy because they are basically quoting scripture as a way to justify their prices.

Dustfinger.9510:

Their a lot of variety in the NPC’s through out tyria. all we have to do is explore a little to find it.

Ah but that’s where the problem comes in. Most players don’t really explore and only get exposed to the most-in-your-face examples which also happen to be the most stereotypical.

I don’t see that as a problem. It’s no different than RL People who don’ bother to learn about the real world only see general trends and steriotypes. If they have no interest in learning about the world, we can’t force them. But they also aren’t qualified to complain. They’re certainly free to do so (and often do) but baseless complaints are easily dismissable.

kasoki.5180:

It doesn’t matter how many scenarios there are since it is not about quantity, rather, it is about explanation behind them.

Also, lore and integration can be given through history of the race, or by showing you the society of that race, their everyday live. Showing you accomplishments of the race, and including you, the protagonist, as one of the actors of that race glorious moments. Integration should not be given via compulsory racism. That should be optional for those who wish to roleplay that way.

Also, let me just ask, what is general lore of a certain race and why is it the determining factor of individual’s action?

because a-net can’t program every possible option that someone can imagine their individual character taking. That’s what RP is for. In fact, what you are doing by saying that your asura likes skritt is RPing. But what you are asking A-net to do is change the mechanics to tailor to your individual RP. But there is too many different RP characters for them to do it to tailor the gam to everybodies own vision of their character.

It seems to me that you’ve missed my entire point if you think that giving option to ‘rebel’ against current social trends breaks the general lore of the race. Because the general lore of any race is not, nor will ever be that they will ALL act the same in same situations. Lore of the race is related to their history, trends in their society, relations with others and their surroundings. And that is how it should be presented, not by forced conformity. (Or maybe I misunderstood your last paragraph)

It seems you’ve missed my entire point. Race lore is also the flavor and zeitgeist of a society. Those trends and zeitgeist will have tendancies that are so much easier and practical to represent than every other possible option that someone may want.

And also, I would really like you to show me those Asura outsiders, I have never seen them in game and that would really improve my general opinion of GW narrative when it comes to races.

Cheers

Yeah, they’re smattered throughout the game. There’s asura that work with skritt. There’s an asura that has no interest in ‘science’. There’s asura devoted to the charr technology of engineering class over the racial preference of magitech. There’s very peasant asura when most tend to be egotistical and overbearing. there a notable asura in the PS that is portrayed as not to bright. There’s asura that care strongly against the inquest using sentient being in their experiements while there is also asura working with the charr who expresses his surprise that the charr inventor doesn’t keep disposable assistants around. Their a lot of variety in the NPC’s through out tyria. all we have to do is explore a little to find it.

kasoki.5180:

Dustfinger.9510:

kasoki.5180:

Dustfinger.9510:

Every every possibility of every individual can’t be accounted for. Some things just have to be represented by the general tendancies of the race.

‘Every possibility’ is one extreme while acting like a generic stereotype is another. Those are two extremes, and there can be a middle ground. Especially in a quest involving choices

You don’t have to put many choices in order to avoid the whole race to seem as if they have the same personality and prejudices

Without a-net putting ‘every possibility’ in the game, there is always going to be something that falls back on the race generalization.

So picking one instance (this one) where they didn’t put a whole lot of choices and saying that causes the entire race to have the same personality means that the would need to put every possibility because any one instance that doesn’t have those choices can make it seem like the entire race is the same things.

So, unless they put in “every possibility”, there will always be something.

No it won’t. Only thing needed to break this notion how they all think alike is to simply put one opposite option. That’s it. You need exactly two options on any matter and you can break what currently happens with some races in GW : they all think alike.

For example
Situation 1 —> The one in game if I understood correctly
Can player pick Skritts?
Player choice A: No

Argumentation : No they can not because player race is Asura, and they ALL dislike Skritts

Situation 2
Can player pick Skritts?
Player choice A: Yes
Player choice B: NO
Argumentation : Even though there is a trend of Asuras disliking Skritts, player is not necessarily one of those people.

It takes literally two choices, Yes or No, to fix this sociological horror in GW narrative

Asura already have outliers represented in the game. The only way we can claim that the asura all seem to be the same is by ignoring all the outliers that already exist and only focusing on the scenarios where the outliers aren’t represented. But as long as there are scenarios where the outliers aren’t represented, you can just claim that all asura are the same simply by focusing on that one issue. So how many near infinite scenarios does a-net need to address in order to give the option to be an outlier in all things?

The fact is, in games where the lore is told through the game, often times, the general options and attitudes of the races is set in the mechanics. Giving too many options for an outlier only fades to general lore of the race into non existence because the general lore of the race is told in part by these limited options.

draxynnic.3719:

An assassination attempt is a possibility, but the royal family had a fortress to live in that probably had suitable guards. Not saying that that would have been a guaranteed failure, but assassination is enough of a gamble that I don’t think it’s reasonable to factor it in to calculations. It’s one thing to know the layout of the civilian areas of the city, quite another to infiltrate it successfully and get into the castle when you’re clearly of a different race to the inhabitants.

Oooh. I got ya. No, I wasn’t thinking of an assassination attempt. if I was the charr, my attack would have been planned to invade LA with the sole intent of laying siege to the castle. Not just raiding the coast or gambling everything on an assassination. So even if the siege never ended, it would have prevented kryta from supporting EH the way it had been. And yeah, the prince was claiming victories but those victories weren’t counted as “major” victories.

Regarding the engine… like I said, it’s an advantage, but the charr weren’t experienced seafarers while, prior to Zhaitan’s rise, Kryta was a major seafaring nation that had ports on all three landbound sides of the Sea of Sorrows. Any ships they put out onto the Sea of Sorrows would be at the end of a long supply chain (their port was on that inlet that runs south of the Shiverpeaks, and even that is putting it in a fairly remote location overland compared to the main charr settlements) – and that’s something that matters quite a bit more to powered shipping than sailships. It’d also take the charr time and resources to build a credible fleet – time and resources they’re not putting onto other fronts – and the powered ship didn’t have a huge advantage in ship-to-ship combat in the book. Especially since, in a pinch, humans can put elementalists on ships to give their sailing ships some of those mobility advantages (as well as possibly building more of those djinn-powered vessels or other magically propelled ships) – remember, part of the impetus for charr developing technology was as a substitute for magic.

While humans certainly have a great navy, they don’t hold the monopoly on magic. A-net has stated the charr appreciate a timely meteor shower and they despise the Flame Legion more for the god worship than the propensity for fireballs.

I doubt the humans could have many magic propelled ships since the engine that cobiah had offered his crew such an advantage multiple times over. It allowed him to come and go reguardless of daily tide, to turn on a dime much faster than a wind powered ship and it allowed him to travel independent of the currents or wind. that’s a pretty big equalizer against a better navy with inferior technology and tactics. it’s the reason the ragtag groups of American colonists did so well against the super power at the time. Rifled barrels changed the game and the experience of the seasoned generals actually worked against Britain. Same with the Titanic. The captains experience worked against him because he didn’t have a strong grasp of how the rules were changed due to the new technology

One thing I think you’re underestimating is how devastating the tidal wave and following invasions was to Kryta. // then regardless of the charr opening a new front, I expect the result would be that the overall balance of power would be more in Kryta’s favour than it is now.

I’m not theory crafting about this part though. before the tidal wave, kryta had all of that available. And it was stated that humanity had no major victories. So we can only assume that kryta was utilizing what was available. it’s not really an issue of what kryta would have done if the tidal wave never happened because we saw that whatever they were doing wasn’t effective enough to claim major victories. So much so that victories were counted by sacrificing countless soldiers simply to repel charr offenses. So even at there full strength they still had no major victories.

kasoki.5180:

Dustfinger.9510:

Every every possibility of every individual can’t be accounted for. Some things just have to be represented by the general tendancies of the race.

‘Every possibility’ is one extreme while acting like a generic stereotype is another. Those are two extremes, and there can be a middle ground. Especially in a quest involving choices

You don’t have to put many choices in order to avoid the whole race to seem as if they have the same personality and prejudices

Without a-net putting ‘every possibility’ in the game, there is always going to be something that falls back on the race generalization.

So picking one instance (this one) where they didn’t put a whole lot of choices and saying that causes the entire race to have the same personality means that the would need to put every possibility because any one instance that doesn’t have those choices can make it seem like the entire race is the same things.

So, unless they put in “every possibility”, there will always be something.

draxynnic.3719:

To the second: That’s not the impression I had. Sea of Sorrows referred to Krytan forces achieving gains in the lands around Ebonhawke at least at one point – but neither side achieved anything decisive.

It’s interesting to speculate what might have come of that scouting mission if Zhaitan hadn’t risen – but it’s worth keeping in mind that Zhaitan’s rise did a lot more damage to Kryta than the Dragonbrand did to the charr. The charr could possibly have gotten some mileage out of raiding the coast, but a navy that represented a significant threat would be noticed and responded to, and a few primitive engines probably would not have been decisive back then.

I just remember the little asura saying humans had no major victories. So any land gains around EH were probably just considered a buffer that kept the charr at bay. or at the very least, not a major victory.

The princes strategy when dealing with the charr was to send masses of troops to their death in order to drive the charr back. He tried it against the risen until Cobiah let him know that what works on the charr won’t work on the risen because all of your casualties get back up and strengthen the enemy.

On the scouting mission: If the charr wanted to get the most out of their scouting I don’t think they should have limited themselves to raiding the coast. The charr seemed to know the layout and architecture of the city pretty good and it wasn’t just any city, it was the capitol. I would have used that knowledge to try to strike directly at the royal family. remember, the only reason they survived Zaitans attack was because they happened to be away from LA at the time of the tidal wave. Success in that would have been a huge blow to kryta.

Remember that that engine allowed cobiahs ship to come and go as he pleased without depending on the tide to launch ships. And it allowed the charr ship to be crewed with far fewer deck hands. if the charr started producing multiple engines before peace was finally made, it could have been big factor. Even against human ships being as well built as they are.

Q: There is one norn that likes to count snow flakes to make his legend. Why can’t we have a snowflake counter class?

A: ………Because. The race is generally about such and such.

R: That’s nonsense! My norn likes snowflakes better than magic or fighting.

A: ……..

OO, just remembered something that may effect the discussion on the norn. In Sea of Sorrows, when LA was about surrounded by Kryta, Cobiah Marriner was weighing his options and one of them was getting norn sell-swords to fight for LA.

The problem with that was whether he would be able to get enough in time. So while the norn may not realistically be able to beat everybody, whoever decides to go against them is going to be in a severely weakened position. If they even beat them. Since it has only been confirmed that the charr could have done it. Keep in mind that any two we pit against each other are also going to be getting attacked by the others. And attacking others.

BlackGhostz.2483:

But in reality in this game Skritt and Asura warriors can go toe to toe with enemies much larger than them.

This is really an issue of game mechanics. In the lore, size matters.

BlackGhostz.2483:

Look at the map and I’m not trying to sound like I have too much bias.

Ebonhawke is in Charr territory and it has a portal that is directly connected to the human capital city. The humans have a way to attack the Charr in Ascalon but if the Charr wanted to attack the humans they would have to cross major ground. And this would be impossible without attacking Ebonhawke first which for obvious reasons would not go down without major losses. At that point the Charr army would hardly even be handle internal threats.

And then something else is that people forget that Lions Arch and the Vigil Keep sit in human lands. The Charr would not be able to just march into the GF and attack the Ascalonian settlement without intervention from Lions Arch especially.

The Charr have an impressive army but right now they lack the power to do much besides defense and support.

There are a few things worth noting here.

-The only reason Ebonhawke survived the first war is because Krytas strategy was to send waves of it’s own troops into the meat grinder, simply to keep the charr at bay. And that was without winning any major battles, as described in Sea of sorrows. And even then, the charr had already scouted and were planning an attack on the capitol of kryta, which happened to be in LA at the time.

-LA and Vigils keep aren’t human fortifications. It would be interesting what would happen with them.

-A lot would depend on what the asura decide to do with the gates, since in this scenario, they are also contenders for dominance.

As described in the ecology, the Flame Legion ruled the other legions. The ones in charge of the other Legions were the shaman of those Legions. And the shaman of the other Legions answered to the Flame Legion. Though, they were still seperate Legions.

As Konig said, it would be on an individual basis. The classes on GW2 lore are a lot looser than in other games. There is so much diversity among races and even individuals that the hard class lore is few and far between.

Every every possibility of every individual can’t be accounted for. Some things just have to be represented by the general tendancies of the race.

BlackGhostz.2483:

Just looking at tactical situations the Humans have the best chance to actually win any war based on current land holdings. The Charr have no viable way to attack DR they would literally have to march through mountains and other armies just to even reach the outlying human territories. And it’s not like the Charr could go around the mountains because it would because they would have to cross even more dangerous territory.

But once again and you even hear this in game. The moment the majority of the Charr army leaves Ascalon the ghosts will sack that territory if the branded, orges, or human bandits don’t beat them to it.

How would the humans attack if the charr can’t?

if the ausra could band together and put aside their difrences they would have a chance. I don’t see it only requiring them to only momentarily happen though. They would need to drastically alter their society to continuously rule other races across the continent through a constant show of force.

Humans have shown they can be extremely resilient turtled up in prolonged defensive positions. Beyond the war machine that is charr society, they have been shown to be able to hold a grudge for a thousand years or more. And their nature is such that anyone they bow down to needs to maintain their strength over them. Norn only see challenges, even after they’ve been beaten. And the sylvari will always be an x-factor as long as the Pale Tree lives. Since we know so little of her actual nature.

Lostwingman.5034:

I think the biggest separation between the Asura and everyone else is that Asura have mandatory education. A thousand engineers will let you develop more breakthroughs than a dozen.

To me this seems to make it a contest between the charr and the asura. They both focus on engineering. The advantage I see the charr have though is that their projects are almost uniformly geared toward war while the asura can have a practicle application .. or not. And when the charr make something that works, it is generally actively distributed through charr society and altered to different situations. while asura inventions can get lost in archive or they are jealously guarded secrets kept from other krewes. And the strength of the charr isn’t limited to their inventions.

of course, so much would actually depend on who attacked who first, and what the responses to those initial movements would be.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I think you’ve seen my posts long enough to know my stance on the matter and, knowing that, can infer when I have a few implied phrases which are a common English usage.

I’ve seen a lot of things, many of which are common in English usage but don’t translate well into written word. As such I’m not in the habit of making a whole lot of assumptions. Especially implied phrases that can vary widely from the same person based on their mood.

The Nightmare Court are called twisted and corrupted, but nothing really says this “corruption” is the same kind of corruption as Elder Dragon corruption and twisting. Just like how Abaddon’s “corruption” of the Margonites is in no way made related.

Agreed. Nothing is confirmed either way. So I merely point out the existence of possibility.

I’m not taking assumptions as facts either, but apparently this discussion has gone on so long that you’ve forgotten what it was originally about – despite it not being that long at all. Let me try again:

Just because the Nightmare Court is altered and twisted, does not make them minions of Mordremoth; it can be little different than situations like Flame Legion shamans whom are altered physically and seemingly mentally. To outright claim that the Nightmare Court are minions of Mordremoth – as many do – is like outright claiming that the Flame Legion shamans are minions of Primordus (just as outright claiming the sylvari as a whole are minions of Mordremoth are like saying Embers are minions of Primordus).

In short, the common comparison is:
Nightmare Court is to Mordremoth as Sons of Svanir are to Jormag.

However, for all we can tell, the actual comparison is no different from:
Nightmare Court is to Mordremoth as Flame Legion are to Primordus.

That is to say, there are alterations that occur in the group, but they may or may not be tied to an Elder Dragon.

I make nor take no assumption – I am merely denying the assumptions made by others of a sure-fire Mordremoth connection.

Right you are. Nothing is confirmed. The possibilities remain.

Yet my response to your post had nothing to do with what the topic has delved into – the Nightmare Court being minions or not – but instead was an extrapolation of pointing out that claiming all sylvari to be Mordrem is foolhardy, and I cited appearance as an example (which, in all honesty, can be extended to the Nightmare Court as well).

Yes, conversations do tend to evolve. However, I didn’t claim that all sylvari are mordrem. I merely pointed out how the possibility does exist. As well as a great many other possibilities that could tie sylvari to mordy. Nothing in lore confirms a definite relation or a definite non-relation. Possibilities abound. We seem to be agreed here.

Seems to solve all problems with having a grenade auto attack. I see no problem with this idea.

She was a ships Captain which was the main requirement (besides money) to be on the Captains council. She was known for feats of strength around LA but that combined with her body type means she may not have gotten much cardio in LA or on her ship. So the bulk of her exercisemay have been limited to heavy lifting wherever the need happened to arise.

Konig Des Todes.2086

I’m not talking about infinite unknowns.

I’m talking about finite unknowns. There’s a limited number of possible forms that magic can become – however, this limited number is incredibly high. That high – but finite – number makes the probability low.

Just look at all the skills of GW1 – both player and NPC-only – and then look at all the skills of GW2 – both player and NPC-only – and then all the massive magical disasters and all those magical devices. That’s the minimal number of possibilities for the form of magic. And that’s a huge amount still!

Right. And what’s the other finite known that we have to measure that first finite known against? Because one relatively large amount of anything doesn’t mean low possibility if the other finite known is also relatively high. That’s how probability is measured.

Since you want to nitpick every single syllable of my posts and take them as absolute literal with no implied words (a common practice in English), let me try once more:

The connection by all supporting evidences is no different than the connection between destroyer and ember.

If we can’t take your posts at the face value they are given, they greatly lose relevance because you can always say something and anything else was implied.

Flame Legion shaman who underwent the self-mutilating ritual to become fire-imbued and a Primordus-corrupted charr, then, if you must be so kitten ed literal.

Great. How does this relate to what we know of the sylvari? Everything I’m talking about relates to the topic at hand.

The Nightmare Court are called twisted and corrupted, but nothing really says this “corruption” is the same kind of corruption as Elder Dragon corruption and twisting. Just like how Abaddon’s “corruption” of the Margonites is in no way made related.

Exactlly my point. We don’t know. I’m not the one taking assumptions as fact here. I’m simply acknowledging actual possibilities.

Well, why are you disagreeing with me in the first place?

Again, you’re taking my posts at a nitpickery literal interpretation it seems, as I was talking about the theory that the OP made – the dead horse theory of sylvari being Mordremoth’s MINIONS.

I wasn’t talking about no connection at all. Though I think that connection is about as much as there’d be if Primordus went around looking for Embers and Earth Elementals to corrupt. The sylvari seem to be primary target for the Elder Dragon, and little more. Maybe Mordremoth recognizes them as a threat, or maybe he knows that they’re made as an anti-Elder Dragon weapon, or maybe because they’re just plants and we’ll be seeing him going on a crusade to corrupt Druids and standard treants next.

I’m disagreeing with your response to my post. Nothing else.

I like veewee’s posts. They aren’t ful of venom like a lot of the posters here. And they brighten my day. Not to mention the advice is knowlegable and usually pretty valuable and on topic. keep it up Veewee

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Nah, what I’m saying is more of "the possibility of every detail of your own life happening in just such an order of events is so near impossible that even just one thing changing would alter that life into being a slightly different life which may or may not hold the same outcome.

Using the same sentence structure for the topic at hand:

“the possibility of every detail of natural magic happening in just such an order to result in the ritual’s effects is so near impossible that even just one thing changing would alter that magic into being a slightly different form of magic which may or may not hold the same outcome.”

Knowing how both work would certainly allow one to mimic it, which is what your comparison of scuba gear, body armor, etc. works, but for your comparison it would be more akin to humanity evolving to naturally have the things we’ve created stuff to function as (e.g., naturally evolving gills).

The problem, of course, being that we don’t calculate probability based on the unknown infinities that can be applied to every situation otherwise nothing would be likely at all. We calculate probability based of finite knowns measured against other finite knowns. Bolded shows that the possibility of a good possibility even exists in this unknown comparison. Because the unkowns may well allow for multiple paths to the same outcome. If we knew that there was only one single way for it to happen then it could be unlikely, but there may be multiple natural ways with one of many key ingediant that just happens to have been fulfilled by the Pale Tree, or Ronin, or ventari or any combination of all. We have absolutely no idea.

In the same way that both Mordrem and sylvari are plants. That was the hidden message – which you apparently missed entirely. Let me try aiming lower:

“Yes, there is a connection, but that connection is no different from Destroyers and Embers.”

Ouch. You seem cranky. So. now that you’ve aimed lower, you demonstrate how you make suppositions and take it as fact. You have no idea if the connection is no different than destroyers and embers because there is no confirmation one way or another when it comes to the sylvari and mordy.

Is a charr a minion of Kralkatorrik due to the existence of Branded charr? No.

Saying that the Overgrown Hounds and Husks may be minions of Mordremoth because they are corrupted Nightmare Hounds and Summoned Husks is no different than saying a branded charr may be a minion of Kralkatorrik because they’re corrupted charr.

Just like how a Nightmare Hound is not the same as a Sylvan Hound – because the Nightmare Hounds are twisted forms of the Sylvan Hounds.

Charr are not confirmed corrupted like the nightmare court is so…. little different situation here.

The possibility of the Nightmare Court being Mordremoth’s corruption is not unlikely at this stage. However, that does not mean that all sylvari are Mordremoth’s minions – which is what I’m saying is unlikely.

I’m not even saying that all sylvari are mordremoths minions. What I am saying is that there may actually be some sort of connection between them/Pale Tree and mordy whether they are minions or not. Because we have absolutely no idea about their origins before Ronin found the seeds. Why you find that possibility so offensive is beyond me.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Aside from a recent interview with the Spanish community explaining that dragon corruption and the magics countering such are so ancient that no one has a grasp of them, and then taking into consideration:

1. The chances of ambient magic holding an actual effect without being altered by individuals.
2. Every single type of effect that magic can have.

You end up getting a very small number for the possibility of ambient magic doing what the Forgotten ritual did (or something similar), simply due to the unknown of the first point, and the immensely high number of the second point.

The logic here is flawed. What you’re doing is looking at all the possible outcomes and saying that it is unlikely that one exact instance can fulfill all criteria. That’s like saying the possibility of every detail of your own life happening in just such an order od events is so near impossible that your life most likely hasn’t even happened.

Instead, we would have to actually have a grasp on the magic ritual and have a near complete grasp on natural magic and how often it’s exact rules occur to know how likely it is that the one can imitate the other. Otherwise the near impossibility of human technology imitating the natural animal kingdom would mean we would almost never do it. But we do it all the time with things like scuba gear, body armor, and every other thing that isn’t compleltey original. (Of which there are few)

Ignore the humanoid appearance, and look at the fundamentals of their physiology, the downright appearance of the planty appearance, and they look nothing alike.

To claim that a Mordrem and a sylvari look alike, is to say a human and chimpanzee look alike, in all honesty.

That’s ironic that you would use the human/chimp example because there is actually a connection there.

“The closest connection in the minions we see and of sylvari comes from the husks and the more basic Overgrown seen in Brisban Wildlands and Cornered – which may just be corrupted Nightmare Court pets, and not original creations of Mordremoth.”

You’ve already pointed out similarities yourself. The only difference is you dismiss them by saying they MAY not be creations of Mordy. But that inherently means that they also may. That is even aside from the fact that corruption can drastically alter a being.

So if we look at how plants get corrupted we can look at the Nightmare Court as a base. They are definitely corrupted. If we see a corrupting dragons minions start looking real similar that may well be a clue. As I said, the possibility is there. It isn’t confirmed but you also can’t say that it isn’t a decent possibility.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Dustfinger.9510:

priory NPC’s say that we use rituals in magic because we don’t have a complete grasp of the natural laws of magic. So it is possible for the effects of the ritual to be completed somewhere else without the actual ritual.

Possible but the likelihood is immensely unlikely.

Maybe, maybe not. We can’t really say how likely it is because we as players don’t even have an understanding of the magic either.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I am utterly amazed that people keep the Mordremoth-Sylvari theory going. Look at all of the minions of Mordremoth. Does any of them look like sylvari (beyond Aerin and Scarlet because they’re corrupted sylvari, obviously)? Does any of them look like a white oak tree?

No. Mordremoth’s corruption is in the form of vines, or briars and thorns, and of flamboyant flowers. The closest connection in the minions we see and of sylvari comes from the husks and the more basic Overgrown seen in Brisban Wildlands and Cornered – which may just be corrupted Nightmare Court pets, and not original creations of Mordremoth.

Think about it. That Mysterious Vine backpiece is a red herring for this theory.

The Pale Tree based them off of humans. So how they look can’t be counted as evidence either way. Now you may be right that there is no connection but the possibility is definitly there and it should be okay to speculate on that possibility.

To add to what Argon said, the reason each Legion uses all professions is because each High Legion is it’s own separate nation. So as Argon said, which one you go to isn’t dependant on ability or profession. It isn’t even dependant on personality.

priory NPC’s say that we use rituals in magic because we don’t have a complete grasp of the natural laws of magic. So it is possible for the effects of the ritual to be completed somewhere else without the actual ritual.

Complex attacks could be right up Mordies alley as well. We saw that Scarlet definitly displayed that behavior. It may have just been her own individual style but then the zephyrites that were stabbed may have been precision targets rather than an uncalculated murder spree. If that is the case, it begins to create a pattern of subterfuge which is a new strategy for a new dragon.

It would also fit with the obvious and unmistakle vine attack. It would be sleight of hand. “look at my right hand that is waving about frantically causing alot of wanton destruction and you miss what the left hand is doing in the shadows.”

“…leader will die. The rest will fall in line. We will not fail.”

If I was going to play fill-in-the-blank (which I am), I would guess that it makes sense if the plan is for Every leader will die. {so that} the rest will fall in line.

it may not be just a single leader that’s targeted.

edit: And those leaders don’t all need to be heads of nations. They can be leaders of just about any group for the general plan to work. e.g.: If the aetherblade leader wasn’t in agreement to working with scarlet, perhaps his second in command was more eager to play ball if the leader meets a gruesome end. especially if that second in command is promised whetever it is eatherblades are motivated by. (lootz).

Just to clear things up a bit, having the Claw is only one prerequisite to being Khan-Ur. More important than that Smodur needs to be able to display the power to keep all the Legions together and he needs to be able to maintain that power if he is to be considered anything close to the Khan-ur. Right now he is an equal amongst the other Imperitors but at least he is an equal on his own land. so that would be a reason he represents the charr in this case.

Other Impertitors have joined the Legions together but it was never for very long so they weren’t considered Khan-Ur. That means that any would-be Khan-Ur can expect to face constant opposition and challenges to his authority. Smodur needs to make sure he has the kind of strength to maintain Alpha status before he can make a play for the throne. Otherwise, he’d just be starting needlessly counterproductive wars within the charr nations. And we know he is more forward thinking than that.

It seems like a sound strategy for immensely powerful beings. Reach out and take as much as you can easily then recoup, look at your new resources and start a systematic assault.

sleight.9638:

Dustfinger.9510:

Alchohol doesn’t need to be produced from plants. The Mongolians got theirs from fermented milk.

sleight.9638:

Norn however have plenty of alcohol ( which is probably the reason why they are resistant to cold) in their homeland meaning they must have at least some overstock of crop of any kind.

sleight.9638:

Then as you said they overheat sometimes: this is where booze comes into play, so they can cool off.

The reason they are resistant to the cold is because alcohol allows them to cool off. …. O.o

taking things out of context usually makes them lose their sense in fact.
I changed my mind after what shinreigari said.
It is our responsibility to be updating our position on as many subjects as possible.
If you don’t contradict yourself every once in a while then you are not thinking.

Also yea. You called it: Milk , another alternative source of food. leave them baby bears alone :<

I don’t think I took anything out of context at all. I just took them at the face value they were given. I didn’t see anything in your follow up posts that indicated that your mind was changed. The way the posts were quoted and responded to gave the impression that you continued in a steady course. The secret to updating our own information without contradicting ourselves is by acknowleging that the old position is wrong. But if you say you now stand corrected then that’s what it is and we can leave it at that.

But yeah, after some research it appears that there are actually a lot of fermented milk alcohol drinks out there: busa (Turkestan), cieddu (Italy), dadhi (India), kefir (Balkans), kumiss (Steppes), laban Zabadi (Egypt), mazun (Armenia), taette (N. Europe), skyr (Iceland), masl (Iran), crowdies (Scotland),

I wasn’t aware it was so prevalent but I suppose if it has alcohol then people will drink it.

Absolutely. I just like to caution all those who think that we already have all the answers when we historically learned men have found out just how much they don’t know as they start to find out what we do know. We can’t really appreciate science unless we acknowledge it’s (current) limitations. But the persuit and method is definitely noble and worthwhile.

saventis.1485:

the thing u speak to is the avatar of the pale tree… i dont think u can really kill the pale tree…

You are right that we only speak to an piece of her but the sylvari think that the entire Pale Tree is vulnerable to being killed. That is why Myleck is kept a secret because if the Nightmare Court found out about another Tree, they might just kill this one and go after an easier unsuspecting target.

Rym.1469:

I’m curious about the other Imperators of Charr.

Are they out of the story? Smodur can speak for the Iron, but I believe he’s not decisive. By our mother Logic, he’s only able to manage the forces of Iron Legion.

He can be kind of emissary, but I seriously doubt that Blood Legion, especially, would let Smodur decide about their troops.

If we’re trying to gather all the leaders, shouldn’t we invite Blood and Ash Legions’ leaders to the summit?

Putting Smodur as the decisive of Charr would be a serious step for him in a way of becoming Khan-Ur. If I were a Charr leader, I would never let him do so.

This is a good point. Though in the Ash and Blood intros it states that they serve the Black Citidel because it is in the own Legions current interests. Perhaps the leaders of the other Legions give Smodur leeway because the problem is so close to his territory. If worst comes to worst they can always just recall their own troops. But so far, they have been comfortable allowing the Iron Legion to call the shots while they stay on Iron Legion territory.

Alchohol doesn’t need to be produced from plants. The Mongolians got theirs from fermented milk.

sleight.9638:

Norn however have plenty of alcohol ( which is probably the reason why they are resistant to cold) in their homeland meaning they must have at least some overstock of crop of any kind.

sleight.9638:

Then as you said they overheat sometimes: this is where booze comes into play, so they can cool off.

The reason they are resistant to the cold is because alcohol allows them to cool off. …. O.o

Ilien.5302:

At the time of GW2, a Charr is, lorewise, armed with melee weapons as well as ranged weapons such as rifles, I think. In this case, a shot through the head of a Norn works just as well as a knife to their belly, difference being it’s much easier to shoot him in the head.

A shot to the head will kill just about anybody. But that fact doesn’t eliminate a norns inherent advantage.

Professor Jonathan Butterworth is careful to specify that ‘The Higgs particle’ isn’t actually confirmed yet. The evidence looks hopeful but it is incomplete for what is all supposed to be there according to the theory. So “a higgs-like” particle is confirmed but “The higgs particle" is not yet confirmed. http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1112667830/higgs-boson-080112/

Kalavier.1097:

Native Americans respected and/or honored animals, yet they hunted them as well.

It’s not like they are murdering EVERY SINGLE BEAR. But yes, it’s explicitly stated they wear fur as means of honor/respecting the animal, not to keep warm.

Infact, the player norn comment on it to the Asura gate mechanic in hoelbrek “We wear fur to honor the spirits, not to keep warm.”
His comment? “Yes, I’ve seen what passes for clothing around here. The spirits do not require modesty! Or hygiene. Or manners. No offense.”

Which ties into what Anmida said, Likely Norn don’t care about being naked or not when around the house.

There’s just so much in this post to agree with.

perhaps a god can change it’s size at will. The greek gods were known to do it for those same purposes.

arthurobenzi.2619:

Yes, but what I meant is that a warrior of the blood legion is a frontline warrior who need more strenght than a ash warrior who act more like a commando.

I can see that. The Blood Legion culture revolves around warriors so they might have more options in training and testing one self than Ash. It seems we’re all agreed that neither one is really in the same league (strength wise) as the norn warriors.

arthurobenzi.2619:

What ? I never talk about top tier warband, but top tier charr of blood legion. By this I mean like a centurion or a tribune. But even, a warband who just left the fahrar is far less experienced than a warband of veteran. The important point was the fact it was an ash warband, not a warband of tall/big musculate charr of the blood legion ( And more, an ash charr is not trained like a blood charr for close fight)

All Legions utilize all classes. Ash has warrior just like Blood legion does. The only difference is that Blood Has more warriors than Ash does and Ash’s strategy isn’t to send waves of warriors to a front line. Blood is known for their warriors because they have more of them and have proven effective by utilizing a general strategy that depends on their warriors but a Blood Legion warrior isn’t guaranteed to be larger or stronger than an Ash warrior. or even a better one on one fighter. They are however more likely to have more experience fighting multiple opponents since Blood’s strategy is to meet it’s enemies, en mass on the field of battle. Ash’s strategy means an Ash warrior may actually have more experience fighting individuals since Ash is more covert.

edit: I can see what you mean about there probably being more experienced warbands out there with more heroic charr. The odds are in that favour. But we really have no big idea about the history of that Ash warband. it could have been fresh or it could have been veterans. We don’t know. It’s like assuming each member of the warband is a bunch of weaklings in the Ash Legion. Why would we assume that? We might as well assume they are the best of the best. it makes no sense to make either of those assumptions. (Btw, where is this norn ambushing an Ash warband from? Im unfamiliar with it)

This is why all of this evidence in norn favor is really only generalized to say that norn have the clear advantage one on one. It is in no way meant to signify that a norn will always win no matter what. But general advantages indicates general outcomes.

Trehearne is the Pale Trees first born.

arthurobenzi.2619:

Kalavier.1097:

when they physically equal an entire Charr warband?

They don’t . One top norn hero defeated an little ash warband in close fight, attacking them by surprise. Already the balance is false, to have a comparaison, it would be vs a blood warband, or even a top tier charr of Blood legion . The end would be pretty different.

Where does this idea of “top tier” come from? All warbands from all legions are generally battlehardened soldiers who grew up working together since childhood. And all norn generally aim for heroism. How do we know the Ash warband wasn’t top tier of the Ash Legion? The answers are that we really have no idea how any other warband would have faired but we do know that individual norn strength allows a single norn to atleast compete with warbands.

Also, that lone incident is not the entirety of the evidence. We have Sea of Sorrows where a hardened warband surprises the captains council including an unarmed norn who uses a bench to subdue 3 armed and battle hardened charr.

Either one works because asura can all be mad sciencey no matter the profession. The light aetherblade skin (especially helmet) is good for the ele. The cooks outfit minus the hat makes a good lab coat. Slickpack and anti-toxin injector would be good back items depending on your specific look.