Guild Wars 2

risa.1382:

The less armor and content issue is one of my favorites tbh. Once upon a time anet made their money by creating and selling large blocks of rewardingly replayable content with short production times.

Had they spent more effort and design on ensuring they could continue that model, we probably wouldn’t have the issues of small content, grind, and unsatisfying rewards that we do now as all of that is a result of their reliance on gems for revenue. I wish I could have seen that GW2.

way to over simplified. There are issues upon issues upon issues you’re not considering.

Short production time isnt magical. It came from a number of factors.

1: maps tied to a simple horizontal plane.
2: simplistic map design
3: low detailed models
etc…

Sure they could have kept the same model but in order to do that they’d have to sacrifice the awesome artistic vision they had for Gw2. What would the end result be? do you really think a game that looks like Gw1 now a days has any chance to be as successful as Gw2? sure some people might not care about graphics but the vast majority does. No gaming company switched to high graphic fidelity just because they love to spend a truckload of money. There is a lot of completion out there and the vast majority of people will pick the best looking games.

You make it sound like Arenanet actually cut costs since the time of Gw1 when in fact they doubled their workforce.

People love to assume the cash shop pushes the design agenda. Yet perhaps people should also consider the opposite. We dont know how much HoT will sell but lets assume it sells to 50% of the Gw2 comunity for arguments sake. thats 2.5m copies at at least $50 each which makes 125M. If they were able to issue an expansion every year dont you think they would do it? its not like the gem store is generating more money than that! on average it does what $80M per year? How about this scenario? The “push” on the gemshop is there to sustain income in between expansion development because expansions take to long to develop. And just in case I put “push” in quotes simply because as cash shops go this is one of the least pushy I have ever seen.

Ayrilana.1396:

Five sets:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Armor_art

If you count what each profession wears as a different set then that 41 sets. This corresponds to what was advertised.

What you’re completely missing is how they got to that 41 and how you’re unfairly not doing the same for the new armor sets from HoT. Let’s look at the HoT armor sets.

You have the bladed armor, leyline armor, and legendary armor. There’s three armor weights so that multiplies it out to 9 potential sets. But wait! Let’s not forget that it differs by race too. With 5 races, that comes out to 45 armor sets. That’s even more than EotN! That’s even on top of the HoT armor being much more detailed and complicated to develop over EotN armor.

Exactly this. people love to fixate on pure numbers without considering the whole picture not sure why. Is value for money simply judged in quantity? If you buy 100 rocks for $1000 is that more value for money then buying 10 diamonds for $1000 simply because you get 10 times the quantity? Quantity alone isnt enough of a criteria.

You want to consider value for money? why not keep it simple. in 2009 Arenanet had 163 employees: http://www.giantbomb.com/arenanet-inc/3010-306/

They probably had less in 2006 when they started work on EOTN but lets ignore that for the sake of simplicity. So essentially EoTN cost Anet the wages of 163 people for about 1 year give or take some other expenses which we dont know about.

for HoT Anet had 350 employees: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-01-14-you-thought-that-was-it-for-guild-wars-2 and took at least 2 years of work to produce. In this same article they reference working 2 big projects that we never accounted for, most likely they were stuff that went into the expansion. Adding all that up. all things being equal HoT roughly cost Arenanet 4 times as much as EoTN to produce yet they didnt charge us 4 times the price did they? they charged us only $10 more. hows that for value for money?

So how does HoT compare to EoTN in terms of value? Its way better and that saying something since EoTN was great. Everything has been improved across the board, maps arent flat now, they have verticality that you cant imagine, it needs to be experienced. Environments are also way more detailed. Same thing for mobs. Animations are so much better and the models are a lot more detailed. etc.. etc..

reading this I get one thing, people are just too obsessed with rewards. Rewards rewards rewards… How I am going to get them as quickly as possible? There is like 0 care about the gameplay itself.

Worst yet people dont even realize what they’re wishing for. Do you really want farms that give 30+g per hour to remain untouched? do you honestly believe nerfing that was so that people would by HoT (as if there is anything that gives anywhere close to 30+g / h in HoT? Nerfing things like dungeons actually keeps old content in play people not the other way round.

Think about it… so lets say they never touched dungeons rewards. Well Anet arent stupid if they take the time to develop an expansion they want it to sell.. they’re going to do what they can to ensure it sells. People like to play the most rewarding content (see first paragraph) thus for any expansion to sell it has to have content that pays more then anything else that comes before it. Slowly as new content is released that 30g/h will rise and rise and rise which gets us to something mind boggling I read.

someone in reference to another MMO said it was super easy to make 25k gold in that game, that 25k gold is nothing which is funny to me cause i did play that game for a very little while before any of its expansions and I remember when once I helped a player find a certain npc he was looking for an gave me something like 2 or 10 gold I dont remember and was crashed cause that was orders of magnitude more gold I ever had till then. I am not sure how that game changes in the years after but I dont think rewards in the core game where expanded so much that someone who never bought any of the expansions could still play the game and enjoy himself.

Our of curiousity I went youtube and checked out some farming guides based on their years…
6 years ago…. 200g/h
2 years ago – 2600g/h
1 year ago – 10000g/h
2 months ago – 75k-120k /h

so anyone can tell me whats the problem there? You think HoT is a paygate to enjoyment? If I decided to play in the core game today what items will I never be able to afford? if every expansion increased income by a factor of 10 then it would be a problem. not farming the in the latest expansion means I am pretty much cut out of the auction house.

Keeping things in check ensure you’re not forced to play specific content which is good and like the opposite of most complains in this thread!

Also can we stop comparing Gw2 expansion to Gw1 Expansions? It takes ~8 months a build a house but ~4 years to build a sky scrapper. they’re both buildings, they may both be work of art but the work required to build one is just orders of magnitude more then building the other one.

@Wanze

Its bad for the average player in several ways actually.

1. T&T Bags… yes this type of thing makes them more valueable and thus people farm them and sell them for a profit. That action though excludes them from all Halloween activities. They’re never going to make 4.2k gold to earn the halloween reward and they’re not going to get any of the lesser rewards either.

2. Seems like a lot of people arent able to split the grind into biteable chunks which is the biggest problem. If you need 5k seeds people arent going to be happy playing the game and just collecting the seeds as they play. They’ll go around targeting seeds and focusing on that. If you get an average of 2 seeds per harvest thats 2500 harvests if we say we find a flax plant every say 1min thats 40hrs of non stop harvesting.. thats going to turn people off

3. most people will not even go after the ingredients they’ll go for the TP instead and grind the gold instead. 4200 is a lot. most people are going to give up entirely on the event because they know they’ll never afford that. Those who think they can do it will spend days repeating the same content trying to earn the gold necessary while the price of this thing will likely keep going up and up as halloween draws to a close.

I honestly dont see how any of this is a good thing for the average player while it seems to me all of it is bad. It will either induce people to grind like there is no tomorrow or give up. Both are bad imho.

Also I never said rich players are bad, just problematic for the game balance when it comes to rewards, not the same thing.

Evans.6347:

My my, people are really getting batty over this Nightfury business.

well nightfury surrounds you with bats so…. ohh and its made from a potion that actually turns you into a bat lets not forget that!

Blaine Tog.8304:

Galen Grey.4709:

For me holiday rewards should be a fun thing you earn for playing halloween content… should be something that is easily earn-able during the festival with a little dedication not something who’s effort potentially dwarves a legendary!

I like the idea of each holiday giving a range of new skins: some of which are dirt cheap (see: the Wintersday weapon skins), some of which cost a few gold and/or some dedicated playthrough of the content, some of which cost 100-200 gold and/or significant dedicated playthrough, and some of which are just obscenely difficult and expensive to acquire. That way, everyone gets to participate at their level of play.

I hate it when forum login results in you loosing a long reply… grrrr so in a nutshell…

Problem here is Anet keep scaling reward requirements up… have we ever seen anything as easy as wintersday weapon skins? no. New rewards have much higher requirments.. you have stuff like Biolumen armor or Fossil weapon set that takes a good level of effort, thats the sweet spot I like that. But then you have the nice rewards… what the crossing was in the first halloween and what nightfury is this year. nightfury is like 10x bigger then what the crossing was, why is that? In essence in my opinion the issue is farming.

Back in the crossing days most people didnt earn like 15g an hour so getting the crossing was for most people an effort for a few months. Now a days people can run one of the 15g/h farms and get the crossing in a couple of days so Anet have no choice if they want to keep rewards like that in play for months but to increase the requirements. Problem is not everyone enjoys farming the most profitable content. Not everyone enjoys just buying the stuff of TP and get it over with. Some of us like to earn our rewards the old fashion way bit by bit. it may take years. (finished the crossing yesterday, map bonus rewards sped that up a bit) finishing nightfury on the other hand will literally take decades using the same method.

And here lies my concern. Even if Anet will release some medium effort items and some big effort items the nice things will by nature fall into the hard to get basket which essentially puts them out of reach of players who dont go the 15g/h route.

Now there is no easy solution to the problem, at least none that will not damage the game and thats something none of us want. I personally see only 2 ways this can be solved. either all farms are nerfed so that the profit people make is more inline with playing regular content (will make farmers very angry) or these rewards could include some form of time gating that will make sure that keeping a reward in play for x months is not the result of gargantuan effort and thus Anet can once again scale requirements down so earning these rewards will be enjoyable for everyone.

Of course timegating makes a lot of people angry too so like I said cant see an easy solution to the problem.

I agree with OP that requirements for the holiday items are generally too extreme but like always no need to rush it. I’d say the only thing you must get during halloween is the 4x tattered bat wings .. ideally also the tonic… the rest you can farm little by little.

Took me 3 years to build the crossing (will finish it this weekend actually) but spread over 3 years it didnt feel painful.

Then again if the crossing took 3 years, this shoulder piece is going to take a decade… so yeah, dont mind long term goals but I do think Anet is making these holiday rewards a bit too painful.

For me holiday rewards should be a fun thing you earn for playing halloween content… should be something that is easily earn-able during the festival with a little dedication not something who’s effort potentially dwarves a legendary!

Really hope Anet reviews their strategy for holiday rewards in the future.. as it is it does leave a bit of a sour taste in my opinion rather then a sense of happiness.

Kraggy.4169:

Carighan.6758:

Thagyr.4136:

Blame the TP flippers for the price. They have been pouncing on everything desirable in the past 2 weeks and jacking the price up. Endless bat tonic went from 80 to 278 gold.

You mean the people removing gold from the economy are responsible? For inflation? Really? o.o

Er, how does TP flipping REMOVE gold from the economy .. TP flipping is a gold TRANSFER mechanism from a player to a greedy player leeching off the hard work of others.

It transfers gold from one person to the next true but it also removes gold from the game while doing it.

lets assume there are just 2 players that have 100 gold each… so total gold in the game is 200 gold.

one of the two players puts an item for sale for 10g. to do that he need to pay 5% listing fee so he pays 50s Now there is 199.50g in the game world.

The other player buys the item. The seller gets his 10g from the actionhouse but that carries a 10% fee so he gets 9g back.

so now buyer has 90g, seller has the previous 99.5 + 9 = 108.5
total gold in the game is now 198.5
TP ate 1g 50s out of the game

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

So, it completely sounds like those of us that have..well.. lives/jobs/families/etc, are totally kittened when it comes to making this holiday item. Great, thanks Anet.

I know how you feel. At least This year I am fairly confident I will get the crossing done!

Pandaman.4758:

LOLinator.1340:

Let’s also not forget that the policy is “if it’s a fraudulent key then your account gets shut off until you buy a real one.” The fact that my account still stands 2 days after this whole affair means that this policy wasn’t upheld and therefore I didn’t invoke need for this policy. AKA they don’t think I have a bad key.

EDIT: I will say this again, someone BOUGHT this with 50 bucks, from arenanet, then gave it to me for 30. That’s not fraudulent, not in the slightest.

Actually, doing a quick search of Kinguin suggests someone didn’t buy this for $50. It’s likely the seller bought a copy in a country where the exchange rate is enough that they can profit from reselling it for $30 (after some exchange/commodity juggling, that is), so while the key itself may be legit you likely ran into another problem.

Namely selling accounts is against the rules of conduct.

So your account isn’t fully disabled because the key is legit, but it may be partially disabled due to some other issue. You’ll have to submit a ticket to CS to find out exactly what.

Next time just buy from official retailers if you don’t want to risk this kind of headache.

I very much doubt Anet would block any account based on reselling accounts. Problem with sites like kingwin is you are doing some gambling.
see Kingwin is a market place not a shop, its kinda ebay if you will. You find different kinds of sellers. some are able to offer cheap prices because of grey markets (a game might sell cheaper in countries with low wages for example) sometimes they’re cheap because they leverage exchange rates (though I doubt that will translate to over $20 difference)

But sometimes you get the short end of the stick… People buy keys using stolen credit cards and resell them. Eventually legitimate owners of those credit cards realize that their card has been used fraudulently, report to their bank which triggers a charge-back. When that happens the key associated with that charge back is naturally going to be disabled. Think this is a much more likely scenario then OP having his account disabled because of account reselling.

IEatCabbage.1907:

1. Complaints on elite specialization being locked and “…requires too much effort” is a valid complaint, because when you compare it to other specializations, which cost no more than 60, it cost way too much and can be considered unfair and grindy. Anet really need to address this issue as I personally believe if they scale down the cost to 60, most people will be satisfied

2. This is funny because there are people complaining there are “…too many vets all over the map..” and they die constantly, try to change your build (stop using zerker) and change up your specialization and trust me you will survive longer. Combat in HoT is about who survive longer, not who kills who faster. Then there are people complaining all the zones are “..huge but empty zones with minimal content..”, I personally believe these people managed to glitch out all the mobs and events that appears every 5 seconds when you try to move

3. “Masteries are only there for grind and personal stories shouldn’t need these to continue.”
We have to compare this to the core game personal story which is gated every 10 levels. You only need to unlock each basic masteries to continue the personal story (for now at least). This actually seems fair when compared to the core game personal story.

I’m addressing all these complaints based on the core game and I personally believe is as unbiased as possible

There is just 1 thing I dont fully agree with…

1. It may be true that it requires too much effort I dont know its too early to say. But if thats the case its not because of the points required… yes old traitlines could be unlocked by 60, but anet could never do that for masteries or most people would have unlocked them fully immediately. 400 may seem a lot, but keep in mind doing just skill challenges required 60 skill challenges to fully unlock a trait. in HoT skill challenges give 10 points each not 1 thus it requires just 40 to of them to fully unlock an elite specialization. However unlike core you need masteries to do all skill challenges so thats where you may be right… that being said masteries is a one time thing so its hard to judge.

Halcyon.5340:

How Rytlock became a Herald:

One day, he fell into a dimensional fissure. This fissure is filled with air containing mist energy. After inhaling the air, Rytlock begin to fart mist energy. Rytlock is now a Herald.

No, really. He went into the mists to collect 400 Hero Points. That’s why he was gone for so long.

Elite Specializations have no story or lore. They are just there for the sake of offering players more build options. After all, our character were born with talents and magical powers that can’t be explained.

Instead of just collecting 400 Hero Points, Elite Specializations should have taken us, the players, on a journey enriched in lore that pertain to each of the Elite Specializations.

Now see this I agree with 100%, I love how they did precursor crafting, would have been great if unlocking elite specialization had a similar method of unlock. Perhaps collecting teachings or constructing a weapon and imbuding it with energies that unlock your hidden potential or something.

Of course such a system would still have ended up locked behind masteries so not sure this would have made many people any happier but it would have been a much more exciting system imho.

Rupture.7683:

Grey,

You and all who are opposing the complaints of others on this thread are in the minority yet your concerns are also valid. Finding common ground by recognizing what aspects of the complaints are legitimate is the only way this will be settled. It will not be settled by reframing the statements of others, or trying to tell people how their complaint is unjustified. Doing so is just as selfish as everyone else who wants their way (i.e. getting something for nothing). Instead seek common ground where the legitimate concerns of both the whiners and the satisfied players matter. Doing this would be more respectful; however, if you do not care about being respectful then you are doing nothing, but stirring the pot, which degrades your own credibility.

You misunderstand me, I am not trying to reframe no ones statement. My issue is people have got so used to throwing the word grind around that merely playing the game is being called grind just because there is a goal involved.

You want common ground, fine, I’d love that too but first step towards that is to cut the huge level of hyperbole people seem to love using so much.

Respect goes both ways… people defend things they love. If you got to a fan of a sports team and tell them the player they’re a fun of is a thief just because you think tickets should be cheaper isnt going to create any common ground you’re going to get a retort of how that statment is false.

I assume what the guy wanted to say is how it takes too long in his opinion to unlock elite specialization… fine I could work with that but thats not what he said he essentially said playing the game is a grind and I just dont agree with that statement, a statement thats not only untrue but does great damage to the game i love. First step is correct that statement. When said person feels respectful enough to tackle the proper issues at hand I will be happy to discuss that too.

Nemesis.6938:

Galen Grey.4709:

Brownies.2901:

400 hero points is a lot of points to get when you completed world exploration years ago and had been using the points for crafting since then. I’m not sure how this idea got through QA testing but the pacing is just awful.

Why so many? On top of that exp gain from dungeons and other things seem to be so much lower now =’(

its not a lot of point, its just 40 challenges in the new area… though to be fair there is the issue that some of those challenges require you to unlock certain masteries before you can reach them… that however needs only be done once since its account wide.

what is frustrating tough is a) to find the points b) you dont find out if you have the requirements until you get there c) you have to do the same process for all alts as well

imo the grind would be less awful if you’d only had to do it once for your account and not for every char but even then its just not fun and you know, thats kinda what a game is supposed to be…it shouldnt be work – thats what you get money for, not pay for

while you do need to do the challenges on each alt thats not where the “issue” itself lies.. I mean i hope no one finds doing 40 challenges to fully unlock an elite profession excessive. The issue lies with masteries and thats something you just need to do once as its account bound. once you get that is no more requirements issue.

Why is it work? I mean lets assume you have all your elite professions unlocked, what would you be doing right now? Let me guess playing exactly the same content!

Kayberz.5346:

Rofl wow. “People are disagreeing with my opinion. must be a conspiracy”

that doesnt bother me personally so much as… someone likes the game.. ohh must be a dev in disguise!

come on do people really believe no one can appreciate any of the awesome stuff packed in the HoT?

and just for historical reasons… been using Galen Grey far before I ever knew of Gaile Gray! Been using this nick since before I started playing Gw1. just saying.

I am not Gaile Gray, for crying out loud… if someone wanted to trick people with a fake account would they pick a name thats so close to the original ?

Yes cause naturally only Arenanet employees out of the 7 million players they have like the game.

still quite early in but id say 8-9..

Ragnarox.9601:

Heart of Thorns:
- If you want elite spec = grind
- If you want masteries = grind
- If you want to do story = grind
- If you want heropoints you need 20 ppl to kill champion
- Did I mention grind?

So where’s the fun gone? Doing things 100 times in a row is not fun.

or you know…. you could say

- if you want elite spec = earn Hero points
- if you want masteries = do any content that awards XP
- if you want to do story = unlock masteries
- if you want hero points = do challenges
- why do people keep calling this grind? I mean if arenanet did like you’re suggesting and remove all that you’re calling grind which would be events, adventures, challenges, raids, and anything else in the jungle that gives XP / Hero points… Exactly what will you be using your Elite specialization for?

Brownies.2901:

400 hero points is a lot of points to get when you completed world exploration years ago and had been using the points for crafting since then. I’m not sure how this idea got through QA testing but the pacing is just awful.

Why so many? On top of that exp gain from dungeons and other things seem to be so much lower now =’(

its not a lot of point, its just 40 challenges in the new area… though to be fair there is the issue that some of those challenges require you to unlock certain masteries before you can reach them… that however needs only be done once since its account wide.

Keneth.6490:

Galen Grey.4709:

They cant all be wrong!

Actually, yes. Yes, they can. That’s a typical argumentum ad populum fallacy. Just because “everyone is doing it”, doesn’t mean it’s the right way or even a good way to do things.

I agree with OP, locking things behind XP is not fun at all, and it’s off-putting to just about everyone I know, especially when there’s no quick way to progress things for those who can’t invest hours upon hours of doing unrewarding stuff on maps full of confused people. Well, I say full because you see them talking in map chat, but in truth you hardly ever see anyone because the maps are huge and the player limit is too small. Also, now I see why they destroyed any chance of using tomes and writs of experience prior to the expansion.

This is why we can’t have nice things.

One problem with your argumentum ad populum fallacy statement… saying that absolutely (and keep in mind here we mean 100% not some number close to 100%) all MMOs implememnt some form of gating doesnt make the statement right, you’re right about that… but the definition of argumentum ad populum fallacy simply states that the argumentum ad populum fallacy proves popularity not validity. Now people play what they like… plenty of games that are P2W but just cause they exist doesnt mean people flock to play them. Yet an incredible number of people play MMOs and each and every one implements gating. Which brings us for circle….
All MMOs implement some form of gating : Fact
Countless millions of People play them : Fact
Why would something that implements a mechanic that people hate be popular if it is not doing it right?

also be careful of the argumentum ad populum fallacy, it also works in reverse. Thinking a statement is false simply because someone states everyone is doing is an argumentum ad populum fallacy in itself.

Ashen.2907:

Galen Grey.4709:

Also please be objective… this statement “Overall, having to unlock stuff through hours of grinding to just be able to play the game I paid for is ridiculous at best.” is wrong on so many level…..

1. you’re playing the game you paid for while unlocking stuff.
2. stuff is locked behind game play not grind (there is nothing specific you have to repeat to unlock any mastery as far as i know)
3. “locking” is not ridiculous, every mmo does it, its actually essential! imagine if you could finish off everything today what exactly will you be doing for the next 3 years while they work on the next expansion?
4. you make it sound like Anet are doing this for the first time in HoT when this same thing existed in the core game. You finished the whole game in the core game before you fully unlocked your character (got all skills/traits/equipment) . You had to play open world content to gain access to the next part of the story.

1) Not necessarily. He may be working toward the unlock without any play involved.
2) See the response to number 1.
3) I disagree.
4) This is incorrect. I, for example, fully unlocked my character within a few weeks (perhaps a couple months) of launch but have yet to finish the game. Still plenty to do.

1. Not sure what you mean, are you trying to imply some semantic where grinding isnt playing or anything of the sort? cause even if that were true it would be his choice, the game certainly allows people to play the new content to unlock stuff
2. see 1
3. You may disagree and you’re certainly free to do so but the whole industry has always implemented some kind of gating be it level gating, progression gating or other variations there off. They cant all be wrong!
4. You can unlock elite spec 1second after you start playing HoT on many of your characters, we arent talking about unlocking here we are talking about fully progressing them (including vertically) IE get every skill, every trait, etc… And there is no way you did that in the first 2 months because new skills/traits were released far later then that does it mean you never played the game until Anet fully released every skill/trait?

so for a little change of scenery how about we list a bit what our favorite thing is in HoT at the moment. Now this might be a bit spoilery so I suggest people who want to discover every single small bit of HoT themselves might do well to stir away… We are discussing activity so technically there should be no story spoilers but there might be some spoilers on what activities one can find in HoT ( I will be discussing an activity myself)

Dashingsteel.3410:

Character progression is about improvement. Unlocking an elite doesn’t improve your character or it least it is not supposed to because of pvp balancing. That is why I say elites have nothing to do with character progression. The mastery system on the other hand actually gives you advantages once you achieve them over players who don’t have them.

sure, overall they might not be more powerful, its horizontal progression but when you start out you’re underpowered and you need to progress to unlock your full potential. Horizontal progression is progression none the less. I may not get overall more poweful but fully progressing my elite specialization will allow me to deal with situation in a way I could not before all the while still retaining the ability to deal with situations the old way. There is power in that and it makes sense that you have to work for it.

Dashingsteel.3410:

Here is the solution. Have the elite trait line cost the same as the regular trait lines. Have the elite utitlities cost the same as regular utilities. Have the traits and utilities on separate completion wheels just like the regular builds. Don’t throw in skins as part of the price of unlocking the specialization. Getting this specialization is not about character progression it is just getting another playstyle. The mastery system is actually the character progression and that is the system that should take a lot of time to achieve.

It is also about progression, why not? if they did what you suggested a lot of people who have unlocked it all on day one. dont feel that would be a good thing. Having stuff to look forward to while you play is good not bad.

I agree, Expansion is actually really fun. Environment is really beautiful and feels so open its breath taking. Content is actually challenging and makes your profession really shine.

Story is really well presented, Love the new Living story season 2 style.

Music is top notch as expected.

Verdant brink (havent visited the other zones yet) feels alive there is so much movement everywhere…. foliage, vines, fires/smoke, cloth, falling sand/rubble etc..

Mobs, ohh there are SOOOOO many mobs I just cant believe it and they’re all beautifully animated! If this keeps up in the other maps too I have no clue how they managed to make so many!

As for the Hero Point rage,my advice as always is to take things slow. For those of us who do I bet this isnt a problem. Like I am already playing my reaver, yes I only have 1 skill unlocked and no traits, so? As I play I will unlock more slowly. I will get more powerful as I go along, still can use my sword, still can go into reaper shroud so mechanically its nearly all there, I will just get better and better as I master it (pun intended) its a mastery after all, what mastery would it be if you get to your full potential by just pressing a button?

Cactus Brawler.7415:

Requires 40 new hero challenges to complete, several of which require masteries that require as much EXP to unlock as leveling to 80 several times over.

Yeah, that is grind.

masteries are account bound what do you expect? people need to really understand what they wish for. This is an MMO, an MMO requires content and goals.

When you ask for something to be account bound you (in generally) may think ohh I will cheat the developers into allowing me to finish something xtimes faster only they’re professionals, they understand they’ll not be able to pump out something new until 2-3 more years so whatever change they make they need to make it in such a way to provide incentive to people.

Now grind is a problem sure but grind does not mean playing the game for a long time. To beat grind developers dont have to make everything achievable quickly all they have to do is give you variety. Yes maxing out Masteries is the same like leveling to 80 several characters (which many of us did in the past 3 years and thats excluding how many times we leveled characters past 80 either) but hey guess what, you can do that playing any character you want and any content you want in the correct area all the while unlocking new stuff to enjoy. Thats exactly what makes this a long term goal not a grind.

DaShi.1368:

I also want to play the elite specializations.

all you need it 60hp to start playing an elite specialization, is it possible you dont have 60hp on your main?

Zalavaaris.5329:

Galen Grey.4709:

Seriously people. Elite spec is kinda like a new class, which MMO has ever released a new class that you get fully unlocked from the get go?

Like a new class you start playing it bare and you build on it as you play, you dont get full access to everything the class offers on day 1. Seriously this community can be perplexing at times

This is a bunch of crap. In other games you level up a new class in old content. When you hit the NEW content you have most of what you need to actually PLAY with it. There might be a new skill or ability available at max level but not the entire class… when legion comes out you can bet a new demon hunter will be able to enjoy the new content with a new toy which is what elite specs were supposed to be.

Right, so let me get this straight…. you have an issue with playing the new content with the new elite specialization and unlocking every of aspect it little by little but see no point in playing it again because once finished you’d have played it all but are perfectly fine playing the old content over and over again for ever new class? It exactly the same issue only you dont get to enjoy the new content for months after release while you level up the new class! thats far worst certainly not better!

pfanne.9783:

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Galen Grey.4709:

MrH.2591:

So much of the new content is gated behind massive amounts of grinding, it makes you wonder what we actually paid for. I really don’t know why they changed their game philosophy so drastically with HoT.

Or you know, its not them who changed their philospohy but us who changed the definition of grind.

Elite specs cost more hero points than all your other traits and skills combined, I’m pretty sure we’re not the problem here.

And you get like 10 hero points per challange. So you only need to do 1 or 2 challanges to unlock something new. On top of that you probably had a bunch of hero points banked, because it’s not a new character.

Exactly, reason for that is pretty simple. It was needed to make up for the fact a lot of people had a ton of hero points stored up. If they didnt do it a large amount everyone who unlock it for their main immediately on launch. Like this with 10 points per challenge even with alts who might not have any stored points you can still play and enjoy something new every 1 or at least 2 challenges.

HenleyLegoMan.4987:

I also totally agree with the OP. Original storylines were doable even if you were not the recommended level, but that changed so you had to be the correct level before progressing story. This was a bad enough gate.

Living world stories also were doable without any gate stopping you, you simply got past each story chapter and opened the rest.

What living world did do, was upon story completion had plenty of grind to get ascended gear and lumi armour etc. But this was after completing story.

HoT however is completely different and has completely ruined doing the story for me. Why can it not be like every other past story?

Personally I think it maybe because you might need to have all gliding mastery done as you may need it for one part of the story. I could be wrong as I came out of HoT at 68% of glider mastery.

Overall, having to unlock stuff through hours of grinding to just be able to play the game I paid for is ridiculous at best. Even more so without there being a starter area in HoT to help assist you and explain what you need to do. Maybe this expansion was rushed?

As for myself I will not be going back to HoT. The knock on effect is that specialisms will make pvp and wvw unplayable for me as I won’t have the same skills etc but I will not let that force me to do this horrid expansion.

Bad show anet, bad show.

ohh please that was only true to a degree, at level 2 there was no way to do a level 80 story mission, yes you could tackle that at level 77 if you wanted but it still took quite a bit of time to get to level 77.

Also please be objective… this statement “Overall, having to unlock stuff through hours of grinding to just be able to play the game I paid for is ridiculous at best.” is wrong on so many level…..

1. you’re playing the game you paid for while unlocking stuff.
2. stuff is locked behind game play not grind (there is nothing specific you have to repeat to unlock any mastery as far as i know)
3. “locking” is not ridiculous, every mmo does it, its actually essential! imagine if you could finish off everything today what exactly will you be doing for the next 3 years while they work on the next expansion?
4. you make it sound like Anet are doing this for the first time in HoT when this same thing existed in the core game. You finished the whole game in the core game before you fully unlocked your character (got all skills/traits/equipment) . You had to play open world content to gain access to the next part of the story.

MrH.2591:

So much of the new content is gated behind massive amounts of grinding, it makes you wonder what we actually paid for. I really don’t know why they changed their game philosophy so drastically with HoT.

Or you know, its not them who changed their philospohy but us who changed the definition of grind.

Okey… point 1. pacing the story…. core game did that with levels. HoT cant do that with levels because there is no level cap increase… what do you expect to finish the story in a couple of days and then what? Have Arenanet get to work on monday check their email/forum and see the following? “hey arenanet we’re done, any ETA for the next Expansion?”

point 2 which is like in my opinion the most important point of all…. can we make a distinction between playing the game and grinding please? Because unless your strategy to level up masteries is to find the first mob you see and stay there killing it over and over again than what you’re talking about is playing the game no grinding.

Seriously people. Elite spec is kinda like a new class, which MMO has ever released a new class that you get fully unlocked from the get go?

Like a new class you start playing it bare and you build on it as you play, you dont get full access to everything the class offers on day 1. Seriously this community can be perplexing at times

I am not sure what your question is…. You mean you installed base game, then you bought HoT and if that means downloading a new client? if thats your question then the answer is no, it will simply update.

IF your question is, had you not bought HoT would you have saved yourself having to download the HoT content? the answer to that would be no, everyone’s client updated even those who didnt buy it.

You can play your specialization it takes only 60hp to unlock… that shouldnt be too hard to get. Why is that a problem? is it because you dont have your entire mastery line unlocked? Cant you just play it an augment it as you win skill challenge? why is that a problem? when we started a new profession in the core game we had 0 trait lines unlocked its not like that meant we were not playing our chosen class did it?

Ohoni.6057:

i’m not going to sit here and advocate gw2 as a grind-free game, but to label it grindy? did you just start playing mmos this year? gw2 is a vacation on a beach compared to silkroad

The measure is not of how it compared to the competition, but rather in how it compares to the ideal. Other games might do things worse, that does not mean that GW2 always does it as well as it could.

whats the ideal? is the ideal to beat a champion and you get a guaranteed drop of a box that lets you choose the legendary you want? that would kill the game. If it takes Anet 2 – 3 years to create an expansion, they need to keep us 2 – 3 years busy. What makes something grindy or not isnt the length of time it takes to earn it, its the gameplay necessary to earn it.

So okey lets say we need to earn all maguuma masteries to get to the legendaries. Thats 68m xp, fine. Some one said thats 4000 events.. No.. This is Gw2 everything gives you XP.. Events, adventures, Raids, Personal Story, Living story episodes, dailies whatever. Think about it, how many levels do you earn everytime you play the game… 2? 3? It doesnt take 4000 events to earn full masteries on all your characters it takes about 135 days – 90 days (well more like play sessions to be fair, not everyone can play every day) But guess what? its not like everything to craft your legendary will be locked behind those masteries, you can work towards them at the same time you’re unlocking your masteries too. Thats the beauty of this system, whatever you feel like doing will most likely get you closer to your target. Yes its a long term target and that puts off some people but hey everything has a cost. We didnt want a vertical progression system where they can keep us busy by giving us items with better stats that we’ll always be needing? the price for that is they have to keep us busy some other way or in this case by providing us long term items.

So back to your statement… what is ideal? In my opinion ideal is exactly what they did. It takes a big effort to get a legendary but I can go about it any way I feel. I want to raid.. cool that gets you closer. I want to do events sure go for it. I want to try the personal story on a different alt, an evil sylvari perhaps… Sure you’re now that much closer. Its not grindy because there is nothing I have to repeat over and over again. I can mix and match and do what I feel like doing. All you need to do is not rush it. it takes 1 year to earn nevermore, no problem I am not loosing anything in between and nevermore or no nevermore I would still be spending that year playing exactly the same content so its all good.

Derenek.8931:

We got 2 living chapter stories over 3 years. 500 million isn’t necessary to tell a good story. Nor is it necessary for decent balancing between grind and gameplay. It’s true, there are some peole who will never be happy no matter how much a game company gives. However that isn’t the majority of gamers. I and many of Anet’s customers I am sure would be happy if they gave an equivalent value for 50 dollars as we received for the core game. As there are no new races, a much smaller set of maps, a shorter campaign, and only one new profession, Anet should ackowledge this lak of comparable product by offering people more. Give them gems, enhanced benefits, etc… It costs them nothing as they are virtual goods, and would assuage those of us who know that they are being shortchanged.

What is the equivalent value of 50 dollars though? Is it having 5 playable races? is it 8 professions? is it 25 maps?

The witcher 3 has 1 playable race, 1 playable profession and 4 maps. does that mean its worth about $8?

its not that straight forward to judge the value of a digital product. Sure witcher 3 has just 4 maps but those 4 maps may have taken more work to create then the 25 core maps we have. But back to heart of torns, there are 4 PvE maps that are huge much bigger then old maps. Did it take engine changes to make that possible? If so how much man hours did it take? The map itself is only part of the equation, what about dynamic events? how many are there? these maps have far more surface areas and changes based on time of day, they could potentially require a lot more time to develop. What about modelling? didnt see any of the other maps but the ammount of stuff in verdant brink is incredible, if anything the map is in places too busy.

But anyway I digressed, what I am trying to say is the value of something isnt just an exercise of simply comparing quantity. A game with 256 maps like pacman doesnt necessary cost more then a game with 25 maps or 4 maps. There is a ton we players dont get to see that goes on in the backend. I dont know if you watched the last episode of guild chat. They explained it takes them 1 entire month to fully develop one legendary weapon. One complained I heard a lot was ohh we only get 3 legendaries in HoT. Yeah sure but thats ignoring the other 21 legendaries they still had to work on 1 month each to get into the new precursor crafting system. We see it just 3 legendaries but in truth its about 24 months for them or nearly 2 years of work.

We should be so hasty in judging how much HoT is worth.

Ohoni.6057:

The answer is simple, it’s by design more exclusive. Like my mini Mr. Sparkles. Just because virtual data CAN be copied endlessly doesn’t mean it should. Like technically money can be printed multiple times as well. But for obvious reasons they don’t do so.

Yes, but money is inherently worthless. It only has value because it represents a share of a government’s backing. The more you print, the less of a share it represents. If you print enough $100 bills, they will eventually become worth less than the paper they’re printed on.

An armor or weapon skin has inherent worth, however. It is worth however much the person who has it likes it, so you can replicate it infinitely and it retains the same inherent value. Even a skin players start with can have worth if people like how it looks, even though every player in the game can get it for free. Almost all of my characters currently wear at least one piece of armor that they started with (the skin, at least).

Plus I disagree with the materialistic viewpoint that having more stuff equals happiness. Maybe true for some people, but definitely not a fact for everyone.

True, but shouldn’t those for whom it IS true have the stuff that they want?

This is an MMO and as such you cannot give everything to everyone. You may be fine with getting stuff with little to no effort but to others that stuff will be meaningless. How many people do you know that are happy with getting blue/green drops? they got skins too but who cares, if one of those skins fits my character I’ll just buy it off TP I am not going to wait till I get the drop will I? So if everything was as easy to get as a blue Item what do you think will happen to the game? Ultimately its about getting the look we want but if playing a single dungeon run we’d have the money necessary to get all the awesome skins for all our characters (cause in our example they’re as easy to get as blues) what do you think that will do to the game? what will I log on for tomorrow? You who are in favor of such as system what would you log in for tomorrow if you had anything you needed already with enough left over to buy dozens of new skins Anet might release in the future?

Countless people shoot Gw2 down because they think its pointless to keep playing a game where you dont progress, you can see that on a lot of MMO forums. For these people cosmetic rewards just are not enough. Thats a pretty clear indication for these people playing content just for the fun of it is not enough, they need a reward, a purpose if you will to play.

You said locking skins behind effort is bad but locking titles is fine. Once again this is an MMO, different people value different things, what about those who care about titles more then they do about skins? They naturally think it should be the opposite, titles should be easy to get, skins should require an effort and who is Anet going to cater for?

Anet simply did the only thing they could do and they did it well. Skins are cosmetic if it takes you 6 months or a year to earn it, its not a big deal. All they can do and it is something they did is make sure those 6 months to a year involve as much varied gameplay as possible. But like people already stated if there is nothing you enjoy playing in the game there is no much anyone can do. Its not like giving you those skins easily will suddenly make any of the content you dont enjoy enjoyable anyway!

displacedTitan.6897:

Spurnshadow.3678:

sicsempertyrannis.3510:

In this new age of MMOs, when the cash shop has replaced monthly subscriptions, you should assume that matters of the in-game economy, gold sales, etc. should take priority over player content.

Incentivizing HoT-exclusive content and encouraging gem purchases to acquire gold (as a means of circumventing increased grind requirements) are necessary measures to keep this product profitable.

This. Amazing how so many of you don’t get it.

Its amazing how some of you don’t understand the basic economics of reducing liquid gold from a single part of the game world. He made it very clear that overall player income isn’t going down but they needed to make slack so that new content can be rewarding without massive inflation….

Also, if you think for a second about the lack of sub you realize that it leads to people taking a break and coming back to the game so you have to KEEP INFLATION LOW so that when these players return THEIR GOLD STILL HAS VALUE.

Exactly this. Think about it for a second. Dungeons generate an insane amount of gold. Some people run multiple paths daily for income. You can find posts of people saying they make 80g a day. Quick search uncovered this: “i usually do: AC 1&3, CM 1&3, TA up&fw, SE 1&3 and it takes ~1 Hour and 30 Minutes” Thats about 12g just in pure liquid rewards. Do that every day and thats 81.2g per week or 324g per month.

That creates a lot of problems.

1 raids. Naturally raids being the hardest content in the game need to have the best rewards. If 1hr 30 mins of dungeoneering gives you 12g+ how much should a 2 hr raid give? 15g? well then what happens when you have 3 active wings… does that mean players who are good enough to finish them get 45g a week on top of the 81g a week they get dungeoneering? which means a massive 125g a month? what happens when we get 6 wings? (171g) or 12 wings down the line (261g a month) do we keep going up?

Thing is people mistakenly think that earning less means they have to work more to get the same rewards but it doesnt work that way. (well not in the long term) Its basic supply and demand. If I am selling item X that took 1 hr to harvest I am going to sell it for as much as anyone is willing to pay. for the 261g a month player that means probably around 5g-6g because thats how much they make in an hour. If that same player makes a more modest 50g a month they’ll be willing to pay 1g instead. Either way if you’re a hardcore player who earns as much as it is humanly possible per hour you’ll always have to put in the same amount of time.

More then that however is the average player / the new player. Those who dont farm every single second of their game time. They dont do a comprehensive dungeon run per day and will not win every raid every week. These guys will never make that monstrous 260g per month, they’ll hardly make the 50g a month yet still need to pay the same prices as anyone else. If we let inflation in the game will become less and less enjoyable as it will be increasingly difficult for them to afford anything.

In my opinion syncronizing rewards between different activities is always a good thing even if something that means nerfing.

I have to agree, Bw3 is way too easy. I can understand why it was made easier, the first time I played the first personal story instance, right at the first encounter I was killed and I image so did a lot of other players and that may have been perceived like a bad thing (what impression will players have where the first thing they fight kills them?) the answer to that is A great impression. Personally I was like awesome, its true, HoT will truly be challenging content.

A lot of people I spoke too were of the same opinion too. Even some people who left cause they felt the game was too easy were considering returning after I explained that veterans in HoT are something to fear. You need to be careful on what you’re doing since a mistake or two will mean you get downed. Alas now it doesnt feel that way anymore.

I personally think its a mistake. Dead penalty is really light, dieng doesn’t have big consequences as such I dont feel its a bad thing having content that you need to learn how to beat. It will force people to learn how to play their builds which is a great added bonus too!

wait you have 100% map completion in queen’s dale and kessex hills and you’re level 21?

You really need to slow down. Thats only possible if you’re only been doing stuff required for map completion (ie Hearts, vista’s etc..) you must have been missing most if not all of the dynamic events which is the heart and soul of the game. These are the most of the map story take place and in terms of leveling they’re worth 7% of your level thats compared to defeating foes that only gives 0.125% + bonus. IE 1 event (excluding mobs you kill in it) is worth 56 mobs. Dont also forget personal story that gives a massive 27% of your level in XP.

doing dailies is also a good way to earn XP.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

There’s more than just Kellach and Rissa. You also have some hearts in Sparkfly and Bloodtide – such as the aforementioned Help Ayomichi slow the spread of Risen corruption. In most cases, meaning via the hearts, Zhaitan’s corruption on the living takes the shape of disease that slowly kills them. Which is the same as the amulets that Rissa had used.

That doesnt disprove the theory though. Pretty much like with Kellach if you’re living corruption works more like a poison. It slowly kills you/drives you insane but you do not fall under Zaithans influence until you’re dead because unlike other Dragons Zaithan doesnt seem able to control the living.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It suggests that they can corrupt the same things, and aside from element their corruption takes the same ultimate form, but how they go about corrupting differs slightly.

I guess part of the crux of the matter is what you consider corruption is. there are different forms of corruptions. You have Taking control of creatures, Creating Creatures, Killing Stuff, changing stuff as well as imbuing objects to transfer corruption around.

Primordus for example seems to create creatures just like modremoth. Destroyers arent living beings that have been corrupted like modrem/sylvari they have been created too. Now granted we’ve never seen a destroyer thats not under Primordus influence but its also true we’ve never seen destroyers with a high mental capacity like Sylvari so that may simply be Primordus likes to play it safe and doesnt create minions with a high enough brain capacity that they me able to resist imprinting so to speak.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You likely speak of Almorra’s backstory. But according to interviews, she was just outside the path of corruption – just on the edge of what would become the Dragonbrand, while her warband was inside (though this doesn’t fit up with her retelling in GoA).

All those within the Dragonbrand as Kralkatorrik flew past were corrupted.

I think you may be right, you’re lore knowledge is phenomenal, its awesome you knew just like that what I was referring too. I reread the backstory again and there are some interesting bits there on the subject. 1. Doesnt seem like Almorra was outside the corruption infact at the time she was shaking her second in command who had succumbed to fear. The story also states that after the fighting was finished “The curse the dragon laid upon the land stretched for untold miles in the direction of the flight” Now granted that doesnt necessarily mean she was in the middle of it. But perhaps more importantly is that Almorra states all her warband was twisted in some way but they were fighting each other. Now thats interesting because that may suggest they all got "infected’ but that not all fell under Kralkatorrik’s control which wouldnt be that different from what sylvari are going through in a way.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Why does Zhaitan focus on corrupting corpses?

Why does Primordus focus on corrupting rock?

Because thats what they’re able to influence but there is a difference between what you can influence and how you go about it. Jormag can influence Norn but choses to focus on having them seek the corruption rather then forcing it on them. nothing in the lore suggests he can only corrupt willing subjects though does it?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

There’s a very clear case of personal preference in the subjects that the dragons corrupt. He clearly doesn’t care about his army. Not only does he not refuse forced converts, but he doesn’t care that Sons of Svanir hunt down icebrood – and they do, as indicated in the dialogue at The Barrowstead as well as the lore for why we see no female norn icebrood (sons of svanir kill them). To use Jeff Grubb’s explanation, Jormag just goes “oh look, the black ants are killing the red ants, who cares.”

I am not suggesting Jormag is all empathy and such only that he may feel willing subjects will be more motivated so to speak than though forcefully converted. Why throw away an edge no matter how small that may be?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

1. Why don’t sylvari eat magic.
2. Why don’t sylvari have a hive mind.
3. Why don’t sylvari come from unaltered materials.
4. Why aren’t sylvari mostly mindless.

etc. etc. etc.

1. They may not have had a chance to yet. Currently in game timeline is a bit wacky Its hard to say how much time has passed between Modremoth waking up and the pact fleet attack. Also Modremoth is miles away deep in the jungle. When the pact attacked thats when Modremoth actually took the sylvari over and at that point … this point? (we dont know how long ago pact fleet attack was. When we get to verdant blink, the ships are still burning so it cant be that long) Its main target isnt to consume magic its to defend itself for a potential threat. IE Magic consumption might still be coming.

2. The Sylvari do have a hive mind but it doesnt seem to click until they’re under the dragon’s influence. Personal story episode 1 of HoT (spoiler alert for those who didnt play the beta yet)

There is also Scarlet, she could also hear modremoth. Infact the whole Modremoth taking over sylvari seems to happen inside a hive mind. It may just be that the hive mind is simply centered on Modremoth itself. We dont know if this is the case with other dragons too.

3. They may, I mean at their core they’re plant material.

4. same reason why jormag may prefer willing subjects, Modremoth might feel it will get an edge with more intelligent minions.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Supposedly Heart of Thorns takes place approximately 24 hours after the Pact Fleet crashes.

True but we do not know if there were sylvari already in the area before the pact arrived. We do know from Malyck that sylvari arent just exclusive to the magumma region it could be that Modremoth created clusters all around including in the heart of the magumma. Though its far fetched, we should have come across unchanged sylvari under modremoths influence if this was the case and I dont believe we did in either beta weekend. Of course its also possible most of the pact’s turned sylvari were killed by the pact when they turned. They were hugely outnumbered after all.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And you just stated my point – Mordremoth’s a plant-corrupting dragon. So why come to the conclusion “sylvari are dragon minions” and not “sylvari are corruptible by Mordremoth”.

Because it fits, it may not be the only conclusion but its a pretty good one. Sylvari appeared right around the time dragons started awaking. While not conclusive sylvari are created by a different entity (tree -> sylvari rather then Sylvari->Sylvari) Unlike other races sylvari share the same element with the their dragon. I mean if you think about it Sylvari share a lot more like destroyers then other corrupted creates and no one is going to conclude destroyers are corrupted rather then dragon minions. Perhaps more importantly Modremoth might have told them when he called them to him and if he did, one of the sylvari might have told the others.

Galen Grey.4709:

If dragons need life every 10k to consume they may very well have designed sterile minions to give life the chance it would need to recover.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

So why is Mordremoth different?

That’s the crux of my point. Mordremoth is different. Vastly different than all other dragons.

Why?

To me, the answer is “cuz rule of cool” and that’s just sad.

How is Modremoth different in this respect? Because he didnt yet start consuming magic that we know off? I mean vines attacked waypoints (could it be modremoth absorbing the magic?) Vines also grow towards laylines… again going after magic? Its important to note we’re technically in the prologue of the story. The story hasnt even began yet its a bit premature to judge whats its all about.

If you’re right, it would be really sad I agree but looking at the story there is a lot of love there. I mean they’ve been building towards this since before launch and its not like the story cannot be cool unless it breaks free from the existing lore. Though what worries me isnt the pursuit of cool but rather player feedback. A lot of feedback shoots down the story because it isnt grandiose enough so to speak if they had to break from lore I fear that may be more the reason then anything else. But personally I think they’re doing a good job. I mean we can discuss so many threats with regards to a single subject its just prove there is a lot of depth and it would be a pity to throw all that away.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

For me it’s the opposite. It makes no sense how a dragon minion could reproduce, asexually, yet create sterile creatures.

Why are Blighting Trees capable of being minion factories via more ‘natural’ (albeit twisted) methods, when no other dragon minion – mordrem or otherwise – is?

This may actually be by design. We know Dragons come up from nap time once every 10k years, reset the world by consuming all magic then go sleepy sleepy again. We know every single time this cycle happened, dragons were victorious (else there would be no more dragons naturally)

This all implies that for some unknown reason, perhaps because dragons need to actually feed on magic every once in a while to stay alive? Now I am fully aware that the magic that rebuilds is actually seeping out of the dragons themselves but 1. that may not matter, they still may need to consume it again. 2. maybe the whole theory is inaccurate. I mean as far as I know we know of the whole dragon magic swipping through in game lore and the lore itself states that lore is flacky. Its essentially theories groups like the priory came up with through observation. Its entirely possible that for realism Anet elected to make it so some theories are wrong which is to be expected in such a situation.

But anyway I am going out of point. Dragons may need life to replenish itself while they slumber but if thats the case what happens if dragon minions could reproduce? Dragons leave world devastated, with some survivors surrounded with millions of minions that can reproduce. World would simply never recover. If minions dont reproduce though in a generation they’ll die out and whatever is left of each race can start to rebuild and prosper until its 10k years o’clock again at least.

If dragons need life every 10k to consume they may very well have designed sterile minions to give life the chance it would need to recover.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You’re not entirely true. Throughout the game, while corpses are the “main” thing that Zhaitan corrupts we see him corrupting living beings, plants, ground, air, and water.

I cant be 100% sure but that may not be 100% the case.
You did point out in other replies living characters that got corrupted like Necromancer Risa and Corporal Kellach. Risa doesnt seem to really be corrupted himself as such. Its more like she is using Zaithans corruption to transform people into risen (after they die, see howl the brazen storyline) and then take control perhaps using necromancy more then anything else.

Corporal Kellach seems to have been affected by the corruption himself before he died but only to a limited degree, in the sense he was not a minion of Zaithan the corruption seems to have merely drove him mad. So much so his actual goal was primarily to cure the corruption, not something zaithan would be interested in. Seems like its more of a zombie epidemic in a way. being exposed to it while you’re alive makes you sick and it may eventually kill you but only once you’re dead it can truely take hold. Of course this is just a theory I could be wrong

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Kralkatorrik is similar in that he corrupted the land, air, and living beings. Jormag’s been shown to corrupt ice, living beings, and even corpses. Primordus has been known to corrupt land and fire, but is told to be capable of corrupting living beings too.

By all indication, all dragons are capable of corrupting the same ‘materials’ or ‘subjects’, but their corruption takes a different form, and they corrupt a specific type of subject more than others (e.g., Zhaitan with corpses).

Doesnt this suggest that dragon corruption works differently between different dragons though? That they all have their own uniqueish approach to minion creation?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

As for trees untouched giving birth to plant creature – maybe not in that specific context, but we do have non-mordrem plant creatures seen throughout GW1 of various kinds and sizes, and in GW2 we have the treants (which are mobile trees).

I am not sure how treants and other plant like creatures are born and it kinda seems crazy to say this about something thats fictitious anyway but if you take the slyvari as an example they really seem unnatural. In that they seem to have skipped a lot of evolutionary steps and progressed a lot in so little time. There had to be dragon influence there for sure but there still had to be a spark so to speak. something all dragons have in common is none of them seem to create minions out of nothing, they all twist something thats already there. Jormag, people/ice etc.. Doesnt that suggest Mordermoth likely corrupted nature for that?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Jormag’s been stated as unique by a few NPCs such as Khrigar Ripjaw in that Jormag and icebrood do not forcibly corrupt but ‘convince’ people to join him willingly and corrupts those willing converts – this is an indirect explanation for why Jora was able to avoid corruption, but excluding Mordremoth, Jormag is the only dragon to do such. In the case of the Dragonspawn, he was a mesmer that used mental manipulation to trick people via compulsion to accept the gift (that compulsion being the ‘temptation’).

Then again to be fair when Khrigar made his statement, timeline speaking We didnt even know Mordermoth Existed much less could anyone state how s/he would operate. But thats not what I meant either. I meant to check this but completely forget, I seem to recall that somewhere, perhaps in the books there is a scene describing Karkatorrik flight when he created the brand (could also have been a flashback, some part of the personal story… just cant recall) Warbands got corrupted but they didnt all get corrupted and charr fought fallen warband members as they were trying to figure out what happened. That suggested (unless for some weird reason I imagined it) that corruption can be fought of somehow.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It should be noted that the Sons of Svanir who channel Jormag’s powers into other break Jormag’s rule of ‘willing converts only’ and even that rule, as shown by the Dragonspawn, is flimsy at best.

I think you may taking things a bit too extreme. Why would Jormag having a rule that he only turns willing converts? it makes sense if its a chosen approach but there is no reason to stick to it. At the end of the day what jormag wants is an army to do its bidding. He may feel willing soldiers make better soldiers and it makes sense to focus on that but why refuse extra power, based on principle? that doesnt seem to fit really.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

But sylvari refusing Mordremoth’s call isn’t a case of concern here. It’s everyone’s reaction to this sudden revelation that by all logical reasoning shouldn’t be known to anyone but a handful.

I am not so sure about this. Lets assume elder dragons exist in our world. One wakes up and we send a global army force to deal with it. Only for some weird reason most Males with black hair suddenly turn on their fellow soldiers. Now granted having black hair is probably not as distinct as an entire race but how long would it take for the army to realize this dragon can control guys with black hair? now keep in mind guys with black hair that didnt attack their fellow soldiers still felt the call, they just fought it off. They can explain to their fellow soldiers what happened and how not all guys with black hair are a threat. How long do you think it will take for 1 guy with black hair to spill the beans if not for mutal protection (after all controlled black hair guys attack uncontrolled black hair guys) out of avoiding a possible preventative action by other soldiers with different hair colour? and once 1 black haired soldier spills the beans how long do you think it will be until all the army knows? They couldnt have known before the attack but I dont think its out of character to say they all knew within days of the attack.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Galen Grey.4709:

So its not like Sylvari are dragon minions that dont behave like dragon minions but rather they’re just not imprinted yet.

I think you misunderstood me. It’s not sylvari behavior. It’s sylvari function.

Their biological function, not their personality behavior.

Okey I am a bit at aloss here now can you explain more? you mean why they’re not trying to spread the corruption like other corrupted minions do? that may be because up until this point (pact attack and downfall) they were focusing on defense. I mean Modremoth activated them (for lack of a better word) to repel the pact assault. and besides once we’re all death Modremoth can like clone us I guess. If thats what you mean.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

So there was a mass spread of corruption. But that wouldn’t explain why everyone is going “they belong to the dragon now, they cannot be trusted!”

see above

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Instead they should be going “they can be easily corrupted by Mordremoth, but their physical appearance does change over time (into the Mordrem Guard appearance) when this happens!”

We dont know that such a change happens immideately following corruption. If it takes time or if not all those corrupted are changed into Mordrem Guard than the reaction is understandable.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It would be as if a whole number of norn suddenly go berserk and a week later those berserked norn have ice coating their skin. They got corrupted into icebrood. Does this mean that every norn was created by Jormag and will turn into an icebrood at any moment? kitten NO!

Jormag as far as I know cant corrupt remotely though like Modremoth seems to be able to. That makes a huge difference. Add to that dont forget its quite possible the pact didnt come on its own to the conclusion slyvari belong to modremoth but that rather some slyvari stated it. Also there is the little problem that slyvari are plants and modremoth is also a plant like dragon… If norn were ice elementals would it be a stretch for charr / humans to conclude norn were created by Jormag?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Precisely. So until sylvari start yapping “oh, hey, buddy I’ve been with in the Pact for a couple years, apparently my race are born dragon minions… yeah” no non-sylvari would know that they can understand Mordremoth. They’d just assume Mordremoth’s the only ED to be capable of corrupting sylvari and that the Mordrem Guard who shout “sylvari are born dragon minions!” are liars just like the risen who shouted “Zhaitan will reunite you with your lost loved ones!”

To non-sylvari, it’s the same situation as before.

Sure I agree but how long would it take for a sylvari to explain all that once sylvari attacked the pact?

Lets simplify things. Lets say the pact had 10 of each race. 6 sylvari attack everyone else but are beaten back by the other 44. Lets assume 2 of each race died in the onslaught. What happens next? the remaining 32 soldiers turn to the remaining 2 sylvari and go “What the baby cat just happened here?” what would the 2 sylvari say really? is there an excuse they can come up with or will they explain exactly what just happened?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It’s not exactly clear with icebrood either… Sometimes they’re encased in ice, other times they’re hearing whispers in their head by champions such as Drakkar and the Dragonspawn.

Yeah but even then it doesnt happen as sudden as it did here.

Thing we maybe jumping to a few conclusions here.

Like there is nothing that suggests “corruption” works the same way between dragons. In fact I’d say it doesnt really seem to be the case. Like Zaithan corrupts the dead, while kralkatorrik corrupted the living. Seems more like each dragon does its thing to corrupt and create minions. Modremoth being the dragon of nature and by extension life it seems to like it make sense it would birth its minions. As for whats actually being corrupted, it may as well be nature itself. Its not like trees in a untouch, natural state would birth sylvari or other modrem creates. That they’re now doing this may very well be the result of the dragon corruption.

Now why dont they all serve him? well dragon influence doesnt seem to be absolute, you need to kinda let that influence in before it takes over. That how it was described in the latest POI but it isnt completely new either.
In: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragonspawn it is stated that: His power infused them, tempted them. which against seems to indicate that dragon corruption is kinda like the dark side. Its alluring and it may be hard to avoid it but ultimately you need to be the one to accept it.

Now you have a variety of lifeforms. With basic life forms like animals and husks they probably dont have enough reasoning to refuse the temptation while high life forms like the sylvari possess the reason necessary to refuse. So its not like Sylvari are dragon minions that dont behave like dragon minions but rather they’re just not imprinted yet.

as for how does everyone know that the sylvari are dragon minions, it may not have happened on screen but people talk. I mean consider you’re in a fleet and suddenly a large number of a certain group of people start sabotaging everything. Naturally you’ll distrust even the one who didnt take part in the sabotage but who belong to that group. Also naturally I’d imagine is some of those people will try to explain whats going and its not the kind of situation you can talk yourself out of by lieing. (ohh those guys, they were just having a bad day you know, they just went balastic, all 100k of them, there is really nothing more to it, all other Slyvari are perfectly trust worthy) it just wouldn’t work.

Now is everyone freaking out… well like you said other dragons corrupted differently, Branded required direct dragon action, same with the icebrood. Modremoth seems to be the only one who can corrupt remotely so to speak. It seems to have a sort of telepathic hive mind. Non sylvari hear it as screeching and other animalistic noises but the slyvari hear it and understand it. Essentially whats understandably freaky is a slyvari might turn at anytime and you’d only realize once their dagger as a few inches embedded in you… if thats not nerve wrecking not sure what is.

well fighting family and friends is never fun but once again its different in that in other cases we had closure so to speak… my friend died before being bought back to life and i have to fight him. My friend got engulfed in crystal before he turning against me. In each case you’re seeing them fall and you know they’re lost before you need to raise your arms against them. No such luck with turned slyvari, its like if your best friend suddenly tries to kill you, it takes a while before you can process that and I can see it as a little more freaky than what we had before.

havent played in 3d in a while so I dont know if any recent patch broke anything all I can tell you is when I played a while ago it was an amazing experience.

Reason being Anet actually fixed a lot of issue generally games have with stereoscopic.

Things like mob names. In other games they’re generally 2d elements which in 3d would render on top of everything else, in Gw2 these are rendered at characters depth. Even the mouse cursor (which again generally is rendered on a 2d plan) is rendered in 3d at the depth of the terrain thats under it.

3d is really top notch .. would be a bummer if a patch broke it.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Galen Grey.4709:

I would have imagined making the core game free for everyone would have laid to rest the (I dont want to pay extra for the core game I already paid for) argument to rest.

Think about it people, if they can afford to give the game for free to everyone why on earth cant they afford to give the game for free to people buying the expansion. It makes no sense!

I really dont understand why people are having such a hard time believing the core game is included at no charge. Its not like No one ever had a promotion were something was included for free with a purchase. It happens with physical products that have a cost for the company providing the promotion why on earth isnt it in your opinion impossible for a company to do the same with a digital product that essentially has no cost price to give away?

Giving the core game free to everyone would have killed the T6 market. Every single veteran player getting a separate alt account for free would be getting up to 165 T6 mats a month, about 2150 T6 mats a year, just for logging in. At $50, some might have thought it would be a good idea to get more than one. That part of the market would have crashed and burned.

Thats not what I am talking about. Every person who never bought gw2 can still open an account for free and enjoy every single piece of content. Sure they may not get 2150 T6 mats a year just for logging in but somehow I doubt anyone who didnt own the game, bought it for that reason.

Besides strictly speaking Anet did that anyway. Nothing is stopping any veteran from applying HoT key to a new account and getting a 2nd, fully enabled account for free. The reason why they didnt give everyone an extra free key in my opinion isnt to safeguard the market. Increasing supply would have brought down prices sure but wouldnt be enough on its own to crash the market not to mention they could easily mitigate that by introducing new stuff that required larger quantities of T6. I think they didnt do it to prevent people from reselling their “free” key. Anyway just a theory.

I would have imagined making the core game free for everyone would have laid to rest the (I dont want to pay extra for the core game I already paid for) argument to rest.

Think about it people, if they can afford to give the game for free to everyone why on earth cant they afford to give the game for free to people buying the expansion. It makes no sense!

I really dont understand why people are having such a hard time believing the core game is included at no charge. Its not like No one ever had a promotion were something was included for free with a purchase. It happens with physical products that have a cost for the company providing the promotion why on earth isnt it in your opinion impossible for a company to do the same with a digital product that essentially has no cost price to give away?

I’ve been thinking about that myself. why just 3 days. The only thing that made sense to me is this is maybe the first step in a greater event? Or may the rewards will be so good that letting the event run for a long time could potentially destabilize the economy? Or maybe because of changes to heart of thorns they can only afford to have changes running over the weekend when not many code changes are to be expected? (dont imagine they’re editing the life game while working on HoT though so this is unlikely)

cant think of anything else.