Guild Wars 2

just a minute cause somehow our message has somehow morphed from be respectful to dont critisize anything at all. Thats not what we’re saying here. No one here that I am aware of is saying people should not tell anet what they disgree with or critic any decision they made that you might not agree with.

Hey I am defending Anet but still I dont think they handled this really well. There is nothing wrong with asking for $50 if what you’re offering is worth $50 but if you’re going for the top price an expansion sells for by like everyone you need to inform the people why you deserve $10 more then the average and thats something Anet didnt do. I think thats a mistake and have no problem saying that. But thats not what we’re fighting I am sure no one is going get hurt by a comment like that, the problem is people went way beyond that an posted hurtful things, like calling for people to get fired, shotting down what was shown so far by saying it wasnt worth anything (or close to anything) or even worst urgening people to boycott the whole expansion.

Constructive ciritism is fine, its more then fine its encouraged by everyone. Thats not the problem, thats not what we want stopped. Its the rage, the hateful attacks and the desrespectful comments that are at issue here.

chemiclord.3978:

And you know what? I fully support your decision to not pre-purchase based on what you’ve seen. That’s sound consumer thinking, to not put down money until you feel the product is worth the price.

Where I start cringing and rolling my eyes at the community is the hellbent insistence to be enraged that this MMO community tends to have in spades. Everything and anything a developer does seems to be steeped in malice. Every cost is borderline fraud. Every in-game change is a spiteful attack on their players.

Why can’t we tone the vitriol down? There’s so many ways to present our reservations rationally that doesn’t make the fan base look like 12-year-olds being told we can’t get three servings of cake for dinner.

This x infinity.

A couple of posts above Test said “I think the main issue is that ArenaNet has lost the trust of part of the community, who no longer believes in the above”. he is right in that regard most likely, whats tragic is, was there really a reason for the community to stop trusting ? where I stand its actually the opposite.

The first major issue came with Ascended gear, people raged because they didnt want a great threadmill and they felt Anet betrayed them by starting one. 3 years later they kept true to their word and didnt introduce a new tier.

Then came the temporary content controversy. Season 2 Anet listened to the players and made new content permanent

then came the Gem conversion issue. Once again outrage but once again Anet fixed it.

Then we had the whole LS content updates arent enough we want expansion rage and once again Anet listened

We also had the trait unlock saga and once again Anet listened

The only source of major outrage that wasnt addressed so far is the NPE changes and lets be honest they only have a minor impact if any on veteran players unlike all the other issues. So really how did they break our trust exactly? Thing is I dont believe they did, its just that as chemiclord said people in this community seem to love to “blow up”. When that happens collective emotions rise more then they should and even when Anet addresses whatever complaints the community has all those people remember is how angry they were the next time something happens.

Case in point, like I already stated people were angry with the LS mostly because said updates were too small to work as an expansion replacement. Only now we know they were never an expansion replacement but rather something to keep us busy while they worked on an expansion. Yet people still use that as the bases of their believe that there is no way HoT will have enough content.

Think about that for a second, the only MMO company to release steady content for free while they develop an expansion has somehow become solid proof for some people that Anet is unable to develop a good quantity of content. Shouldnt it be the exact opposite ?

Cyninja.2954:

Agreed, but come on. It’s not like 2-3 people are complaining. It’s quite a few actually and the wave has become at least so big that most mainstream gaming media are reporting it.

You can’t tell me no one at arenanet(or NCSoft, whoever is responsible for the pricing implementation) at any point didn’t go:“Are we maybe taking this to far? Players are stupid, but there is a limit of shady business stuff we can pull off without it collapsing on us.”

In case this did not come up, get rid of the marketing team and replace them because they sure as * are completely out of touch with their gamer base.

Now yes naturally but like I explained in a different post: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Did-Anet-foresee-HoT-price-pandemic/5183541

it will take sometime before they can come up with anything. Its only been 2 business days. Even if they take the easy way out and simply give a character slot to everyone which hopefully would be enough to diffuse this situation, it will take sometime to get that approved by all stake holders. I dont think its something that can be decided and told to the community in as little as 2 days.

TurtleofPower.5641:

I don’t think they knew what they were doing with this expansion at all. Just being honest… it doesn’t resemble a product that’s been in development quietly for a years… It seems like they decided “how fast can we put out a full expansion” if they started last fall or something. And you see a lot of the problems with that method, a lot of things just not thought out. I think they backed themselves into a corner for some reason.

There are very strong indication that HoT has been in development since at least January 2014. In this interview they mention they’re working on some big projects in addition to LS and the Chinese release. Since then there were no big projects released which suggests they went into the expansion instead:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-01-14-you-thought-that-was-it-for-guild-wars-2

Besides we do know living story team was 20 people which leaves a lot of employees unaccounted for, they had to be working on something. There is no way the feature patch teams and pvp teams made up for the other 330 employees right?

Then there is the indicator that made people believe arenanet had to be working on an expansion, key Anet employees have essentially dissappeared since Gw2 launched. Jeff Stain and Ree Soesbee for example. We know they still work at Anet but didnt hear anything from there anymore. Something that suggests they’ve been working on an expansion is the fact there was a post once suggested Ree might be working on the Living story team and a dev replied that, that wasnt the case though he couldnt comment on what she was working on.

Thing is, and this was a mistake on Anet’s part in my opinion, so far they have only revealed guildhalls and some specializations. We dont know anything about the PvE aspect which is the bulk for the expansion and thats having people assume the expansion is really tiny. Truth is we dont know yet how big or small it is and we will not know until they finish revealing all there is to reveal.

nexxe.7081:

There isn’t even a physical box or physical items, and they want to charge the same price as the original (i meant for standard version). It’s laughable really.

I’ve seen this repeated multiple times but this is incorrect. Gw2 retailed at $60 not $50 when it launched.

Gene Archer.8560:

Galen Grey.4709:

Its not an option.

Be specific, what isn’t an option?

Galen Grey.4709:

They cant really do anything before taking a decision and they have a ton of homework before they can take that decision.

And what I’m saying is that there is initial homework they could have been doing that would have let them avoid a portion of this mess. I’m saying they didn’t put in the necessary work to begin with.

I forget which user said it, it may have been you, actually. But instead of hype for the expansion, everyone is reporting on or commenting on this negative (perceived or otherwise) thing that’s going down. Any work that ANet did at E3 has been essentially sidetracked, possibly even completely unraveled. And I’m not talking about just the forums. Media sites are reporting on this, rather than on the hype.

Regardless of any “right” or “wrong”, it can’t be denied that this was a definite moment of FUBAR. They dun goofed.

by its not an option I was referring for management to ever become agile in situations like these.

I am sure they’ve done their homework, people’s reaction are hard to predict. Sure in hindsight its always easy to say they should have known but that doesnt necessary mean it was really easy to predict.

I mean there are two main issues that got people fired up. The price for the expansion.IE $50. and bundling the core game with the expansion.

$50, that also happens to be what WoW charged for the latest expansion as well, there were some people complaining this was too much but not only there wasnt an uproar about it but you can even find threads where OP complains about the price and EVERYONE in the thread takes the opposite side and try to explain why they believe its priced okey. Lets not forget thats also with everyone paying $15 a month. Is it such a stretch to believe that when Anet though about this they concluded if the vast majority of WoW players are okey with paying $50 for an expansion every 2 years while also paying $15 subscription they’ll be okey to pay $50 for our every 3 years considering we charge no subscription? On top of that an expansion is something players overwhelming asked for. There is good chance Anet changed their strategy based on that really strong feedback. Words have consequences, people told Arenanet over and over to scrap the LS and simply focus an expansion. They did this rather passionately which again suggested to Anet people would value an expansion very highly. Turns out not highly enough but again anticipating that might not be that easy.

Same argument for the 2nd issue, adding the core game for free didnt really hurt anyone in anyway. Arenanet could have just concluded new players would be happy for the nice deal they get while old players would be happy buying the expansion they have requested so passionately. I’ll be honest but if I were the one doing prediction for Arenanet I would have fell for this too, who on earth could predict giving away something for free would have you labeled by the community as greedy?

Gene Archer.8560:

Galen Grey.4709:

In a nutshell this is a lengthy process, there is a lot to consider before taking a decision like this because it has far and wide implications for a lot of people. Pricing isnt decided based on a dice roll and cant be changed on a whim.

Here’s the thing. If a management team can’t be agile when reacting, then it either needs to be agile and fluid before the time of reacting, -or- have enough of a finger on the pulse of its community so that it doesn’t constantly find itself in situations like this. If it can’t be agile, then it needs to be smart. Sure, ANet takes things slow. It takes its time with things. But it doesn’t use that time it takes wisely.

They either need to up their reaction time, or they need to better work to not find themselves in these situations. And whether or not “people will always complain”, a lot of these messes that ANet has found itself in the past couple years could have been significantly reduced from the get go if they had simply paid better attention.

Or, you know, if they had communicated better, like O’brien said they would.

Its not an option. They cant really do anything before taking a decision and they have a ton of homework before they can take that decision. They did tell us they’re looking into it, what more can they say before they decide how they’re going to act about it?

Yargesh.4965:

Tea.7025:

I’m one of those players who bought the game recently, less than a month ago to be precise, for its full retail price of 40$ and I’m not bothered about the base game getting bundled together with the expansion. It will entice more people to give it a whirl.

However, the expansion being 50$ for even those who already have the base game makes me wait with the purchase. Most likely until it goes on sale. Not because I wish to boycott it or disagree with Arenanet’s pricing strategy but because putting down 90$ on a single game in a month is just something I can’t justify. That’s half a year worth of subscription.

I’ll continue to support the gem shop through a 10$ gem purchase each month but the expansion is a no-go for now. That being said, I wish Arenanet luck with the launch and I do hope that those who buy the expansion will enjoy it.

If you bought via ANETs site you can get a refund for your purchase and then buy the game at 50. From what I understand though you lose your current account.

No you dont loose the current account, they will refund you your purchase the account will obviously go inactive but if you buy hot on it you’ll get whatever characters you have back. People have already dont this and confirmed its how Anet are doing it.

DeadlySynz.3471:

Packaging the core game with HoT is redundant. When they announced HoT last time, did they not offer the core game for $10 (or in and around that time)?

Any new players who wanted to get in on the action would have already bought their accounts at $10 prior HoT even coming out. So this begs the question, did Anet know at that time they were going to package the core game in with HoT effectively screwing over all those new players who dropped $10?

Or is it a case of their marketing teaming having a brain fart in forgetting their company already offered the core game at $10 only a few months earlier?

It could be a billion things.

How about the dropping the game to $10 didnt get the response hoped for so they hoped a better deal would actually push the threshold. Discounts have a good effect in getting people to buy stuff but giving away something for free has a much bigger impact after all. Its why so many websites offer free shipping. There are studies that suggest implementing free shipping had sales double compared to when implementing discounts. It is also the reason why you see so many buy one, get one free or buy two get one free promotions.. strictly speaking these promotions are actually worst then then getting 50%, 33% discounts but somehow people are more likely to take a promotion if they have a state of mind where they’re thinking they’re getting something for free.

This article explains it pretty well:

http://business.time.com/2012/07/03/consumers-prefer-to-get-more-rather-than-pay-less-because-theyre-bad-at-math/

“It seems as if the psychology power of free may also make us worse at math. In another marketing experiment involving hand lotion in an actual store, researchers sold 73% more when it came in a bonus pack than when it was priced at a discount with the same exact unit price.”

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Galen Grey.4709:

The expansion is still “expanding” the core game, nothing has changed there.

I’ll be honest. I stopped reading your post after this gem.

why which part of it you found to be false exactly?

Gene Archer.8560:

Behellagh.1468:

Management isn’t agile.

Personally speaking, this strikes me as a problem rather than an excuse.

Its isnt either, its a simple fact of life. Sometimes we forget that in a big organization decisions arent taken by a single person. Or at least it would be much much worst if thats the case.

let hypothetically assume ceo decides the backlash isnt worth all this and decides to lower the price. Do you really expect all that would involve is he phoning up someone and thats it? NO WAY!

First of all you’d need to get together all the stake holders which will likely include sales, finance, marketing, legal, development and NC Soft. Then you’d need to see if making such a change will impact them and even then this is not something that can be answered on the spot. Finance will need to re-run projections, based on those projections, development will have to come up with how the smaller amount of revenue is going to impact their future plans. Based on that reply sales will have to see how the change in content is going to effect meeting their target next year. After all that is done it will likely be time to confer with NC Soft since they’re also a stake holder in this. NC Soft will have to be informed how projections would be changing based on what was previously submitted and they will also need to give the go ahead that they’re willing to incur the loss if any (well lets be honest there would most definitely be one if they lower the price by $10, doubt charging $10 will get enough extra people to buy the the expansion then the cost of loosing $10 per customer would bring)

In a nutshell this is a lengthy process, there is a lot to consider before taking a decision like this because it has far and wide implications for a lot of people. Pricing isnt decided based on a dice roll and cant be changed on a whim.

phys.7689:

no the mistake was not being too nice, the mistake was taking veteran players as a given.

they were not being nice to the people who already played the game, in fact they are being slightly mean to them. The expansion is more expensive than most other expansions, gives less over the initial copy, and they offer a free basic game to newcomers, but dont offer the same free basic game to veterans (or something of value)

nice to new players
mean to old players.

granted its $10 more expansive them most with most being 3 vs 2 as far as I can tell.
but the gives less then the original game is bogus. every expansion gives less then the initial game, how could it be otherwise, 5 years working on the initial game with the full team, 3 years MAX working on the expansion with partial team. They offer the same deal to old or new player, nothing is stopping old players from opening a second account if they wish to. Granted sacrificing HoT on your main account isnt ideal but they do have no choice there. IF they gave a key to people so they can open a 2nd account while applying hot to their main account a lot of people would resell that costing Anet millions. that would be crazy.

phys.7689:

not surprisingly the older players are the ones who are upset.

stop bringing up sub fees. sub fees are not related to box game costs.

sub fees are parrallel to gem store offerings.

people are angry saying they’re unable to enjoy the expansion properly without being given an extra slot. its a major issue with this whole story. can you enjoy the expansion with a sub? why shouldnt that be an issue ? its far bigger! and no sub fees dont parallel gem store officerings. one is manadatory the other is optional, I will not be locked out of Hot if i dont buy gems.

phys.7689:

a person who is currently playing ffxiv is paying the sub fee regardless of whether he gets heavensward or not. It doesnt figure into whether the expansion itself is worth it or not.

let me give you an analogy

its like two different clubs
both charge a cover
one has a monthly fee, but you get free drinks/pretzels
one has no monthly fee but charges you for drinks/food

the monthly fee has nothing to do with the cover. truth is more money tends to be made from the clubs that charge for drinks and food. Yes, some people go there and buy no drinks and food, but reality is the club makes more.

the monthly fee is paying for a different aspect of the service is what it boils down to. People who opt in, believe that sub fee is a greater value than non sub fee, irrespective of any expansions.

Thats not a fair parallel. Food and Drinks are the core elements for a club. It would be fairer to say they sell cloths and souvenirs. But now if said clubs start offerinf you a VIP boot for $50/$40 (they’re cheap clubs) You cannot really argue in good faith that getting a VIP boot at the free club is more expensive because they’re charging you $50 while the paid club is cheaper because they’re charging you $40. You cannot get in that vip boot without paying at least $55

MrWubzy.3587:

Communication has always been their problem. Whether or not it was NCSoft’s suits or ArenaNet’s developers who made that decision, it was still a decision made for a good reason. We’ll never know the exact reasoning.

I’ve enjoyed my $60.00 Heroic Edition. I even dropped around $40.00 in gems for some cool-as-nips skins for my wife and I. I’m not asking for special privileges or perks for playing the game for almost a year. All I’m asking for is a little respect as a consumer. Give us that upgrade option, or at least an option that doesn’t have the base game, if possible.

what difference would that make, the base game is being given away free of charge. Sure they could do a separate package with no base game but it would still cost $50 how is that respecting their customers any better?

IF your issue if $50 is way too much thats a different story that has nothing to do with the fact they’re giving away the base game for free.

Ohoni.6057:

subs have nothing to do with anything

the sub is a different aspect of the monetary policy.

what you pay a sub for, is not having an intrusive gem store, or a game designed around having a gem store.

Subs definitely do have everything to do with it IF you insist on comparing a subscription game to a B2P one. With FF14, they could charge very little on the expansion, because they know that they will definitely make $50 off of each current player off sub fees alone. .

to be honest I think sub games make a huge mistake charging a sub at all, I am sure they always loose a few players due to that barrier. Eve online has the better idea there giving content updates free of charge perhaps thats one reason why its the only mmo who doesnt really suffer dips in subs?

phys.7689:

Ohoni.6057:

but the upgrade for ffxiv is 40.00 not 50 dollars
if the expansion followed the same model, GW2 would not be in this mess at all.

But then the following month you have to pay them $10 more dollars, so it’s back up to $50. Then the next month it’s $60, and so on. Honestly, trying to say that GW2 should have the same price for their expansion as a game with a monthly fee is just complete nonsense. At this point I kind of wish that they were offering a $40 version, BUT it comes with the same monthly fee attached as FF14, so if you buy that version, and stop paying them $10 each month, you’re locked out of the HoT content.

also, not to get distracted, but its irrelevant.
the fact is if they had priced it like FFXIV

• they still would have a package that is marketable and a good deal for newbies
• they would have not been giving different customers different service based on who they are
• they would not have had to refund players, or seem like they made a money grab
• would have less people complaining about content vs cost
• would not have this negative press and controversy

sub or not, they should have used a similar marketing strategy

but seriously this really makes me said, you’re probably absolutely right, not disagreeing with you but that doesnt change the fact on every single aspect (provided the content is there of course) Anets deal is better!

cheaper to get into, A LOT cheaper to play for years to come, cheaper for new players.

Even the core issue that Anet arent giving away a free slot with the basic version, thats less of a deal then not giving away a free month on all levels (its cheaper to buy the slot, slot is a one time cost, not everyone needs a slot absolutely everyone needs a sub)

yet time and time again people are saying we wish thats what Anet did? Super sad

phys.7689:

Galen Grey.4709:

Elorna.5329:

At the time of my pre purchase I was still under the impression I’m buying the expansion, and everyone else regardless if new or old player, is doing the same. Their FAQ that I read around the time they released the initial HoT info had me believe that. The original game losing value is a given and I wasn’t at all worried or offended about the sales of it. But adding that product for “free” at the same price value with another product to people that are complete strangers to the series while charging the same to old veterans just for an upgrade, especially when it was a last moment decision, is a shady business practice, and makes me lose trust in Anet as a company. And as I said in my original post this is mainly on me for not reading up carefully, but I didn’t read up carefully because I never had a reason to not trust Anet so far. So yes, you’re right in the fact that it’s a perception issue, but customer care and trust is based exactly on that.

Why? Its quite normal not just for MMOs to offer the original game at a discount when they release an expansion. Like say FFXIV which is launching an expansion right now has a bundle too. $50 for the expansion, $60 expansion + core game. Is arenanet’s decision to instead of discounting the game to $10, they discounted it to $0 that makes this shady for you?

Everyone is simply buying the expansion, if the account you apply that expansion too doesnt have the game, it unlocks the core game for you. I dont really see whats shady about that! No one is being cheated out of anything.

incorrect information presented

ffxiv presents a 60 dollar new player option

but the upgrade for ffxiv is 40.00 not 50 dollars
if the expansion followed the same model, GW2 would not be in this mess at all.

1)people would have felt the price was better
2) they would not have had to change the faq or give refunds based on it
3) they would not be selling two different products to the same players based on if they played the game or not.
4)many of the people who want charachter slot for 50 would have been getting the same value.

so yeah your snafu in what FFXIV offers basically covers how a small difference in marketing makes a big difference in how your product is percieved. It also shows what is accepted when practice when it comes to expansions.

I stand corrected you’re right expansion alone is $39.99 For some wierd reason square enix decided putting the sound track first, then heavensward bundle and I mistakenly took the soundtrack price as the actual standard edition. my mistake.

but seriously you know we’re essentially arguing here that the mistake Anet did was being too nice, that they should have charged more for the core game rather then giving it away?

We’re also arguing the expansion should be $10 less though I’d also point out that with FXIV buying the expansion alone is not going to get you anything since it doesnt include any free subscription time so just to play it a single month you need to actually paying $55 so in truth it isnt really cheaper and thats without arguing all the other sub fees you’re going to have to pay.

Aidenwolf.5964:

Galen Grey.4709:

Aidenwolf.5964:

Galen Grey.4709:

Aidenwolf.5964:

@Galen Grey hello and welcome to the game. Your experience is not universal as the game generates revenue from the store.

Sorry I dont follow but thanks for the welcome even though its kinda 3 years later.

I meant the Vayne vs. Everyone game.

yeah sorry figured out your reply later… here is the proper reply:
.
Ok I follow now… what I linked is not something I said, its something another player said.
but even so Vayne didnt say everyone has said its possible to play the game without ever spending a single Gem, he said some have said so, you called it anecdotal I found you someone who made that claim. Even if he is the only person to ever refuse to pay a single gem and he’s not: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/How-much-have-you-spent-on-Gems/first
that still makes Vayne’s statement factual.
Edit: woke up and understood the post so edited to reply properly

Actually that’s not how proof works but I admire your spirit!

why do i even bother. everything anyone says or presents will always get dismissed.

yes I am sure people who claim they never bought a single gem in fact bought truck loads

and beyond that even though there is absolutely not a single piece of content in the game that requires a single gem to enjoy (and thats a fact) it is absolutely impossible to play the game without ever spending money on gems because that is not how proof works. as if you even need poof or there should be any debate whats so ever if it is possible to play Gw2 without spending a single cent.

I am sure you can provide so much proof to the contrary after all right?

nesh.7234:

Galen Grey.4709:

but now get to throw all that away because some people seem to have issue with other people saving a little bit of money.

(I know that talking to white knights is as usual in vain but …)

$50 for HoT is just too much for the expansion which is in best just small content update compared to the others on the market. Especially so as I’m pretty sure that we will see a price drop (or real upgrade pack) soon after real release. This is just kitten whale money grab move, simple as that.

I know that talking to people who call those who dont agree with them names is generally in vain but

We have no clue how big or small HoT is. We just dont know how big or small it is compared to anything else. All we know is an overview of what features there. Case in point up until last week all we know is there are going to be guild halls in the last 3 days they explained that and they needed 8 blog posts to do it.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Isn’t that funny? By definition, expansion means to expand on the original. Yet, adding the core game to the ‘expansion’ has muddied the water like nobody’s business.

The expansion is still “expanding” the core game, nothing has changed there. What did this muddy exactly?

Lets say they never did any of this

- Veterans would pay $50 and get the expansion added to the core game
- New players who bought the game recently would pay $50 and get the expansion added to the core game they bought recently most likely for $10
- Players who don’t own will likely pass or wait until there is another discount and buy the game + expansion together or seperately.

With what Arenanet did now we get
- Veterans will pay $50 and get the expansion added to the core game
- New players who bought the game recently would pay $50 and get the expansion added to the core game and have the amount they paid for the game refunded
- Players who don’t own either will likely pass but a few might be persuaded this is actually a good deal, but the expansion apply it to their account which will unlock the core game and expand it to include HoT

Esentially with this move everyone is technically better off, yes everyone… New players get to save money. Veteran players get more players to play with + more money arenanet makes is more money they can re-invest in the game which in turns means more / better content.

but now get to throw all that away because some people seem to have issue with other people saving a little bit of money.

Alvagon.8710:

Galen Grey.4709:

what different will it make if they create two packages
1 Gw2+Hot and another standalone HoT?

They will both cost $50 (Gw2 is free for the billionth an 1 time) and they will work exactly the existant package does.

When they sold Guild Wars 2: they said you can buy this House and some time later you can add a pool to it, but still you will need this House that costs 50$.

Now they are selling Gw2:HoT: if you buy the pool we will throw in a House for free and it will cost you only 50$ you dont need to own a house anymore.

The question is : IF you allready own a house do you need the pool? what has the pool to offer? Maybe it isnt even a pool, just a puddle!!

They said no such thing, up until january this year we didnt even know there was going to be a pool.

Since people bought their $50 house, that same house has been selling for much lower, even as low as $10.

now yes in january, 2 1/2 years since people bought their house they said surprise we’ll soon start selling a pool you can add to your house and yes they did say you will need a house for your pool (naturally)

now a couple of days ago they said you know what we really want you to buy our nifty pool so if you dont own a house we’re going to give it to you for free. If you bought the house recently we’re going to refund you the price you paid and all you need to do is pay for the pool.

I dont see where the problem lies exactly!

if you bought the house long long ago you had plenty of time to enjoy your house.

if you bought the house recently you get the price you paid for the house refunded provided you buy the pool

I dont see why people who bought the house long ago should be angry people who buy the pool right now get the house for free when they never had a problem with people getting the house for $10. how is it any different beyond they’re getting a larger discount?

Caedmon.6798:

They are,i will not be getting another gw2 account so i won’t be getting any gw2 for free,i’m astonished how you think you get gw2 for free while in reality existing players only pay for hot,im not forcing myself to see it this way because It Is this way.Only new players will get the gw2 + Hot while existing payers simply pay for Hot.
And that’s the mistake…if you realize that existing players do not get another gw2 account so they don’t get gw2 for free and have to pay the same price for Hot alone,while new players get gw2 + Hot. They needed to seperate these 2 into a Gw2 + Hot package for new players and a Standalone Hot for existing players,simple.

everyone pays just for hot like its been stated a billion times you get Gw2 for free so you’re not paying for it.

what different will it make if they create two packages
1 Gw2+Hot and another standalone HoT?

They will both cost $50 (Gw2 is free for the billionth an 1 time) and they will work exactly the existant package does.

Elorna.5329:

Galen Grey.4709:

Elorna.5329:

At the time of my pre purchase I was still under the impression I’m buying the expansion, and everyone else regardless if new or old player, is doing the same. Their FAQ that I read around the time they released the initial HoT info had me believe that. The original game losing value is a given and I wasn’t at all worried or offended about the sales of it. But adding that product for “free” at the same price value with another product to people that are complete strangers to the series while charging the same to old veterans just for an upgrade, especially when it was a last moment decision, is a shady business practice, and makes me lose trust in Anet as a company. And as I said in my original post this is mainly on me for not reading up carefully, but I didn’t read up carefully because I never had a reason to not trust Anet so far. So yes, you’re right in the fact that it’s a perception issue, but customer care and trust is based exactly on that.

Why? Its quite normal not just for MMOs to offer the original game at a discount when they release an expansion. Like say FFXIV which is launching an expansion right now has a bundle too. $50 for the expansion, $60 expansion + core game. Is arenanet’s decision to instead of discounting the game to $10, they discounted it to $0 that makes this shady for you?

Everyone is simply buying the expansion, if the account you apply that expansion too doesnt have the game, it unlocks the core game for you. I dont really see whats shady about that! No one is being cheated out of anything.

Something having value and that value dropping over time as exhibited through various GW2 sales is different from that same product suddenly having no value at all and only being a bonus to some other product. Especially since there was no indication of that happening until it actually happened (the whole FAQ editing as previously mentioned). If I were to compare to another game, I’d compare to Team Fortress 2 – that game has been losing value over time, going on sale multiple times and eventually becoming free. But even when it went completely f2p old customers still got a silly hat as a recognition of their support. Treating old customers exactly the same or worse as newcomers is what has me upset. But luckily for Anet not actually upset enough to quit/ask for my money back, just wary for any future purchase.

we dont get a silly hate but we do get beta access / a title + god knows how many free updates between now and the next expansion.

Selene.9415:

Galen Grey.4709:

Elorna.5329:

At the time of my pre purchase I was still under the impression I’m buying the expansion, and everyone else regardless if new or old player, is doing the same. Their FAQ that I read around the time they released the initial HoT info had me believe that. The original game losing value is a given and I wasn’t at all worried or offended about the sales of it. But adding that product for “free” at the same price value with another product to people that are complete strangers to the series while charging the same to old veterans just for an upgrade, especially when it was a last moment decision, is a shady business practice, and makes me lose trust in Anet as a company. And as I said in my original post this is mainly on me for not reading up carefully, but I didn’t read up carefully because I never had a reason to not trust Anet so far. So yes, you’re right in the fact that it’s a perception issue, but customer care and trust is based exactly on that.

Why? Its quite normal not just for MMOs to offer the original game at a discount when they release an expansion. Like say FFXIV which is launching an expansion right now has a bundle too. $50 for the expansion, $60 expansion + core game. Is arenanet’s decision to instead of discounting the game to $10, they discounted it to $0 that makes this shady for you?

Everyone is simply buying the expansion, if the account you apply that expansion too doesnt have the game, it unlocks the core game for you. I dont really see whats shady about that! No one is being cheated out of anything.

It’s the premise. They say $50 for the expansion, and that you get the core game free when you purchase the expansion. Small print: except if you already have the game. So why can’t I also get the core game if it comes free with purchase? Because I already have an account that I’ve paid for. How does that seem in any way fair? Just because I’ve already paid for my account and the content, someone else who hasn’t gets more from purchasing Heart of Thorns.

Like, I have nothing against getting the core game free with HoT purchase, it’s a great way to get new players in which is good. What’s not good is making your veterans feel as if they’re getting the short end of the stick, just because they’ve already happened to purchase your game/support your company.

There is no small print, you can have a free account too, just apply it to a new account and you get the core game for free like everyone else. They dont seperate the two (and its a good idea) because if they how many people do you think would apply hot to their main account and sell the free account at a discount ?

Gray.9041:

Galen Grey.4709:

Elorna.5329:

I prepurchased the expansion without noticing the whole “core game included” clause. I did it because in the 10 years I’ve been Anet’s customer I never once felt like I’m getting a bad deal, and I just flat out trusted the company.

But for the first time in those 10 years I kinda feel cheated now (even though I’m fully aware it was my own fault for not reading through the offer carefully), not because new players are getting more value for their money, but because veteran players are getting treated differently, like we’re something that is a given, instead of a precious resource they should be building upon. I won’t look for a refund, because I doubt I’d even get one, nor will I stop playing, but I’ll definitely look closer next time I buy anything, since Anet stopped being the company I can just trust with my money without a second thought.

This is just false perception. You get exactly the same thing new players get with the only difference they get the core game cheaper cause well its 3 years old now. That has been happening for quite a while now, they had multiple discounts promotions.

nonononono.

no.

that’s NOT what this is.

games get old, prices go down, that’s life.

saying that previous owners of the game CAN’T buy the game at the sale price is a whole different fandango.

every time GW2 was on sale, there was nothing stopping an existing player buying again at the sale price. many did.

but this time, the price decrease is applied only to new players. it’s not the price drop. it’s that the price drop is only on offer to some players, and not others.

no its not, old players are free to buy it an open a new account too just like they could buy the game on a discount and open a new account. Its exactly the same thing.

Naturally people dont want to do that because obviously they want HoT on their main account but that doesnt mean that ability has been taken away from them. After all when the game was on discount I couldnt buy it and apply it to my main account and get 5 new slots, ability to join 10 guilds etc..

Elorna.5329:

At the time of my pre purchase I was still under the impression I’m buying the expansion, and everyone else regardless if new or old player, is doing the same. Their FAQ that I read around the time they released the initial HoT info had me believe that. The original game losing value is a given and I wasn’t at all worried or offended about the sales of it. But adding that product for “free” at the same price value with another product to people that are complete strangers to the series while charging the same to old veterans just for an upgrade, especially when it was a last moment decision, is a shady business practice, and makes me lose trust in Anet as a company. And as I said in my original post this is mainly on me for not reading up carefully, but I didn’t read up carefully because I never had a reason to not trust Anet so far. So yes, you’re right in the fact that it’s a perception issue, but customer care and trust is based exactly on that.

Why? Its quite normal not just for MMOs to offer the original game at a discount when they release an expansion. Like say FFXIV which is launching an expansion right now has a bundle too. $50 for the expansion, $60 expansion + core game. Is arenanet’s decision to instead of discounting the game to $10, they discounted it to $0 that makes this shady for you?

Everyone is simply buying the expansion, if the account you apply that expansion too doesnt have the game, it unlocks the core game for you. I dont really see whats shady about that! No one is being cheated out of anything.

Selene.9415:

Galen Grey.4709:

Selene.9415:

Galen Grey.4709:

ITs actually better then that not only people got refunds but also were allowed to keep their account progress.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3aege1/a_follow_up_to_my_post_that_blew_up_out_of/

It is not better than that.

That reddit thread was one person who had to be tenacious and keep persuading support that he shouldn’t be punished through account termination.

Their standard response to people looking for an upgrade is the typical “30day, account will be terminated, blah, blah” and some people have already taken it.

Anet should have been doing that from the start, but they haven’t.

care to link these? cause I am pretty sure those are nothing but people quoting the standard refund request response. Which according to other people who also succesfully got the account refunded without loosing progress has now changed:

“Actually the code that you are requesting a refund will be permanently disabled. If you registered the code, all features, including game access, will be removed. If you haven’t used the code, the code cannot be registered.If you wish to repurchase the game or the expansion at a later date you will be able to pick up where you last left off by applying a new serial code. Your existing account will not be banned.”

So even if before you had to convince them not to do it (havent seen a single person say they actually lost progress) its definitely not needed anymore.

Hm. Hadn’t read that thread since a few hours after it first came out, guess CS changed their response. Which is good.

http://i.imgur.com/zPywVMI.png

That was their initial response to people.

yes I am aware they had a different response. I am just no aware if they actually applied it to anyone. (IE that someone requested this change and actual got his progress deleted)

That would have been pretty evil thing to do and a bad idea on their part. I mean I get it that they want to deter people from refunding and it makes sense but why deter them from rebuying in the future, that part doesnt make sense

Elorna.5329:

I prepurchased the expansion without noticing the whole “core game included” clause. I did it because in the 10 years I’ve been Anet’s customer I never once felt like I’m getting a bad deal, and I just flat out trusted the company.

But for the first time in those 10 years I kinda feel cheated now (even though I’m fully aware it was my own fault for not reading through the offer carefully), not because new players are getting more value for their money, but because veteran players are getting treated differently, like we’re something that is a given, instead of a precious resource they should be building upon. I won’t look for a refund, because I doubt I’d even get one, nor will I stop playing, but I’ll definitely look closer next time I buy anything, since Anet stopped being the company I can just trust with my money without a second thought.

This is just false perception. You get exactly the same thing new players get with the only difference they get the core game cheaper cause well its 3 years old now. That has been happening for quite a while now, they had multiple discounts promotions.

Selene.9415:

Galen Grey.4709:

ITs actually better then that not only people got refunds but also were allowed to keep their account progress.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3aege1/a_follow_up_to_my_post_that_blew_up_out_of/

It is not better than that.

That reddit thread was one person who had to be tenacious and keep persuading support that he shouldn’t be punished through account termination.

Their standard response to people looking for an upgrade is the typical “30day, account will be terminated, blah, blah” and some people have already taken it.

Anet should have been doing that from the start, but they haven’t.

care to link these? cause I am pretty sure those are nothing but people quoting the standard refund request response. Which according to other people who also succesfully got the account refunded without loosing progress has now changed:

“Actually the code that you are requesting a refund will be permanently disabled. If you registered the code, all features, including game access, will be removed. If you haven’t used the code, the code cannot be registered.If you wish to repurchase the game or the expansion at a later date you will be able to pick up where you last left off by applying a new serial code. Your existing account will not be banned.”

So even if before you had to convince them not to do it (havent seen a single person say they actually lost progress) its definitely not needed anymore.

Caedmon.6798:

Trajan.4953:

What “community”?

All these forums have become is a cesspool of complaints with obvious agendas. “Bring back Cantha and Elona”, “Why should I have to buy this cool thing with gems” “Nerf this class because it rolled me in WvW” and on and on and on.

A-Net is a company, pure and simple. They have to make money in order to maintain the game, bring you new content, fix bugs and generally keep us amused. Gem store items are a staple of that as well as Character slots, Transfers, and Bank slots.

They gave you 3 seasons of Living World FOR FREE (some bad, some good, some great) as well as a host of QOL things.

$50 is not unreasonable to pay for a game that will guarantee at least 50 hours of content, in a day when the average console game is $60 and gives you 8 hours at best.

Just settle down:)

Why do you compare an mmo to a console game ? If so compare it to an RPG like the witcher which also has 100 – 200h worth of playing if not more with the FREE Dlc being released.Stop acting like anet is constantly giving you kitten for free,everything released is gemstore gemstore gemstore,they didnt release a proper set of gear since day one,Only Gemstore outfits cus they wanna earn money right.

this isnt true. Gear released after day 1 not tied to the cash shop: Asended gear, , truck load of back pieces, mutliple shoulder, gloves, boots and helmets. Glorious + Glorious hero armor set, Radiant Armor set, hellfire armor set, Hexed outfit, Carapace / Bio luminescent armor set, A lot of Champion weapon skins, amberite weapon set, Sunless weapon set, twilight assault weapon set, guild commendation weapon set, Ascended weapon skins, sab and winter weapon skins

to that there are also the Sovereign, aetherized weapons, dragon jade and sclerite weapon set. While they are now exclusively cash shop you could earn them in game through game play for a month or so.

So no Arenanet were never exclusively about the gem shop, they strike a balance. Not a perfect balance mind you but its definitely unfair to state they always only released new skins in the cash shop cause it is far from true.

Caedmon.6798:

You forget the fact that loads of ppl has spend a ton of money on the gemstore making these LS Possible,you thinking you get that kitten for free is you being ignorant.That Free is made possible due to our purchases.I feel betrayed for owning gw2,and anet forcing me to pay again for gw2 + Hot.. yes i truly see it like this.Instead of giving me the chance to buy Hot Stand-alone,if so i would have nothing to complain about.Im not the kind of guy that bends over like that.Greed gets them all in the end.

Just cause people buy stuff from the cash shop it doesnt mean the content was not free. You paid for whatever you bought not the content, simply speaking people who chose never to spend a single cent still got the same content for free which in itself makes it free.

And no arenanet didnt force you to buy the game again together with Hot, Arenanet gave it to you for free, its you who are forcing yourself to see it that way.

Aidenwolf.5964:

Galen Grey.4709:

Aidenwolf.5964:

@Galen Grey hello and welcome to the game. Your experience is not universal as the game generates revenue from the store.

Sorry I dont follow but thanks for the welcome even though its kinda 3 years later.

I meant the Vayne vs. Everyone game.

yeah sorry figured out your reply later… here is the proper reply:
.
Ok I follow now… what I linked is not something I said, its something another player said.
but even so Vayne didnt say everyone has said its possible to play the game without ever spending a single Gem, he said some have said so, you called it anecdotal I found you someone who made that claim. Even if he is the only person to ever refuse to pay a single gem and he’s not: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/How-much-have-you-spent-on-Gems/first
that still makes Vayne’s statement factual.
Edit: woke up and understood the post so edited to reply properly

Ashen.2907:

Worth is always “to me” as there is no such thing as objective worth.

of course there is. That is something whoever made the product determines for they are the only ones who know what went into the product cost wise as well as a fair markup. What worth is to you is simply an opinion not real worth.

Things dont suddenly become worthless just cause you’re not interested in them, if that were the case anyone who isnt interest in something would be able to get it for free.

Aidenwolf.5964:

@Galen Grey hello and welcome to the game. Your experience is not universal as the game generates revenue from the store.

Ok I follow now… what I linked is not something I said, its something another player said.
but even so Vayne didnt say everyone has said its possible to play the game without ever spending a single Gem, he said some have said so, you called it anecdotal I found you someone who made that claim. Even if he is the only person to ever refuse to pay a single gem and he’s not: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/How-much-have-you-spent-on-Gems/first

that still makes Vayne’s statement factual.

Edit: woke up and understood the post so edited to reply properly

Ashen.2907:

Vayne said that not a single person could honestly say that HoT was not worth $50. I replied to that. Now worth is subjective so we are talking about worth $50 to a given player.

A given player can very readily, accurately, and honestly, say that a game that does not provide me with X is not worth $50 to me. It does not matter what it includes if it does not include the only thing(s) the consumer is willing to pay top dollar for.

As an example, HoT could include hundreds of maps, gvg, dozens of fully customizeable guild halls, a free pizza, a thousand gold, a dozen character slots, one of every dye, a thousand gems, every minipet…and it would not be worth $50 to me if I dont have ascended gear on my main without having to craft. Not worth $5.

okey I see what happened here, its actually a language problem.

Vayne said as you said: “Vayne said that not a single person could honestly say that HoT was not worth $50.”

That is not the same as saying Its not worth $50 to me. Example I may not like Game X so I would never pay $50 for it like you said but if game X inlcudes include hundreds of maps, gvg, dozens of fully customizeable guild halls, a free pizza, a thousand gold, a dozen character slots, one of every dye, a thousand gems, every minipet I couldn’t objectively say its not worth the $50 asking price.

Even so Gw2 didnt have any of the things you mentioned yet people bought it how can any of them claim none of the features Gw2 has are worth a single cent? which brings us back to your statement. Even for someone who has paid just $10 for the core game they cant say what HoT will be worth to them based on what they know isnt going to be included because clearly they value other things too (whatever was included in the core game) which in turn we still dont know what and how much is going to be included in HoT

Aidenwolf.5964:

Vayne.8563:

Aidenwolf.5964:

Vayne.8563:

Aidenwolf.5964:

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Agreed. I came to the same conclusion as Kill. It’s unfortunate, but facts are a funny thing.

Yes and the facts I provided were actually facts, even though you claimed they weren’t. Funny thing that.

Not all of your facts are factual. If you choose to mix misinformation in with your facts in a thread dont be surprised when people have trouble sorting them out.

The facts I labeled facts in the post in question were indeed facts. Everyone gets stuff wrong sometimes, but when I say something is a fact, it is.

You don’t define what is and is not fact. You’re stating things as fact that you could only know are fact if in fact you work for Anet. When I state fact I provide proof, which you never do.

Every fact in my post was a fact. It’s a fact that Guild Wars 2 is sold as a buy to play game. How is that not a fact.

Nothing I said required inside information for it to be a fact.

Actually GW2 is a hybrid B2P cash shop game. GW1 was a far different model and though it has a cash shop it’s nearly a pure B2P. If it can be argued it isn’t fact.

It being B2P is a fact. You buy it, you can play it, you don’t have to spend a dime in the store and most people probably don’t. Some have said so.

“Some have said so” anecdotal

Let me help you there:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Don-t-Pre-Purchase-HoT-100-000-Loss/5163045

“Btw, I did always vote against gems by never buying any of those in-game. If you want to vote against anything that I would suggest voting against that.”

not anecdotal anymore

Dave.6819:

to people that think devs deserve respect and we arent treatin em well, i say this :

http://i.imgur.com/1h0wSaL.png

for now its not about money. hell, not even about lack of content or whatever. its just about greed and having no respect for players. thats the main reason.

picture above should tell you to buy HoT or not if you are a decent person. and overall.. im just afraid Anet will become same like NCsoft. that company totally ruined Aion. greed greed greed. thats what destroyed that game. so i just honestly hope Anet wont become the same as those guys. i feel bad for those devs that truly worked their kitten off on the update.. and now some guy just tagged the prices and caused all this drama. :/ gl devs. you are still great and we love you. just not those that set the prices and do all these dirty things.

PS – enjoy again

http://i.imgur.com/1h0wSaL.png

and to that I say this:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3a95r8/to_those_who_said_anet_will_support_people_who/

if that was really about greed why are they converting people for free?
and if you try to play the because of the uproar card think again they said they’d do that over 2 days ago before this upoar actually started:

[–]ProHealsMichael Henninger 70 points 2 days ago
We’ll most certainly help anyone out who just bought the core game and would like to make the change to a HoT pre-purchase.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3a46s4/preorders_for_heart_of_thorns_are_now_live/cs96lfu

Ashen.2907:

You are completely wrong about whether or not someone can honestly say HoT is worth $50 at this point.

We know enough for someone to potentially make that judgement for them-self.

Someone enjoying GW2 for what it is but not enough to spend more money without the addition of an additional tier of gear to work towards.

Or someone who isnt willing to spend more money without getting open world dueling.

Or open world PvP.

Or an increased stat benefit on ascnded gear compared to exotic

Or the removal of ascended gear.

Or the removal of the gem-gold market.

Or the addition of Cantha.

Or a change to ascended so that all characters get BiS by max level.

Or a change in content design removing vertical map design.

There are plenty of things that we know arent going to happen or are that could be sufficient for someone to find HoT not worth $50 to them.

Heck all it would take is for someone to not care for the region its set in.

Value isnt decided by whats not there, its decided by what is offered.

I wouldnt dream of say argueing with a restaurant owner that the steak they just gave me isnt worth the $50 they’re asking for it because it didnt include chocolate icecream, massaman curry and every other dish I love! No obviously I can only judge if the steam is worth $50 by what I am given in the plate. Now if on the menu all it states is steak naturally I have no way of saying weather $50 is justified. on the other hand if the menu lists the size of the steak, what sauces it comes with, what sides are included etc.. then I can make an informed decision. But until I am provided with that information I will no know the value, knowing whats not include doesnt help in that regard.

maddoctor.2738:

Kill.3458:

For the final time the price isnt the issue, the issue resides in the value of the purchase. If ANet feels that the expansion is worth $50 id like to see what exactly makes it worth $50 before making an investment.

Exactly. We need to know:
a) what “Challenging Group Content” means (something instanced for guilds I hope)
b) how many maps will HoT have (I think we need at least 10 new maps, more if they are all SW sized)
c) how lengthy will the story of HoT be (at least the same as the entire LS2, hopefully longer)
d) obviously the rest of the specializations

People call HoT “just LS3”, I disagree, I call it an expanded Feature Pack, because we don’t know much about the length of the actual story yet.

This I totally agree with and is super sensible. I dont think its something worth getting mad over (no pun intended) because one can simply hold off pre-purchasing until they get the information they’re after. Its not like per-purchasing today gives you any advantages over pre-purchasing later or even not pre-purchasing at all.

maddoctor.2738:

The second fault in value being that clearly existing players are getting the short end of the stick, not to mention that if you purchased in the days before the FAQ change on 05/16/15 you were basically lied to. No matter what way you look at it we are being FORCED to repurchase the base game without getting an extra copy of the core game (HoT has essentially replaced the core game as its the only offering of GW2 being marketed by ANet on their site).

Correct me if I’m wrong but I think they are already giving refunds for those who purchased the game during the sales? At least, they’ve done it in the past, people who bought the game just before a sale got refunds so it makes sense to do it now too.

ITs actually better then that not only people got refunds but also were allowed to keep their account progress.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3aege1/a_follow_up_to_my_post_that_blew_up_out_of/

maddoctor.2738:

A. Something was added to the standard edition (*cough*Char. Slot/800 gems) to make up for the fact that existing players will not be getting a second copy of the core game.

There is a slight problem with adding new things to the standard edition. Players who already pre-purchased did so without knowing the extra character slot will be in the standard edition, which will make the Deluxe pointless. Those few extras it gives aren’t worth 25$. I believe they didn’t add an extra character slot to the Standard edition in order to have 3 packages. They could’ve easily had 2 packages only, Standard (with a char slot) and a Deluxe with the extras and 2000 gems at 75$. They added the “extra” package in the middle and increased gems to 4000 to create a third package, a package that shouldn’t exist.

I think a good way to reward loyalty is to give an extra character slot to all veteran players on their 3rd birthday (maybe only if they pre-purchased HoT?). I suspect HoT will be released either close to the 3rd birthday of the game, or at least after it, I don’t think it will be released sooner, so adding an extra character slot to veteran players will be in time for HoT and won’t change any of the current packages

It will be a bit expensive for arenanet but probably the only way to fix this and hopefully make most happy is to give an extra slot to all tiers.

IE standard gets 1 free slot, deluxe+ get 2 free slots.

Savior.5783:

There are people claiming Anet are innocent as an attempt to downplay what they’ve done. So you’re wrong there, look at the forums.

Woooo hold your horse there. Correlation does not imply causation.
I am one who think most of the claims are actually wrong not because people are being rude but because their arguments are flawed. Example people claiming they are being cheated by being made to pay for the core game again.

Savior.5783:

Saying a certain attitude is not acceptable, depending on the attitude, when the actions of the attitude do not exist in the first place is wrong.

How the *&^$ are you silenced by other peoples’ rudeness? Can you not still post? Are you being physically restricted? Garbage.

I didnt say we are being silenced by rudeness I am saying asking for politeness is not silencing you like you’re claiming (I here means those who are requesting respect, you being people who feel they can act as emotionally as they feel like)

Savior.5783:

Also I never implied or even said that I was being victimized. Did you even read my post?

And you’re implying being rude and calling people names is unjustified in any case, when that’s simply wrong.

I don’t think you even read or responded to my post at all. You’re all over the place and make no sense.

yes certainly implied it. Your whole argument is people shouldnt try to silence you by expecting you to be polite doing that is and I quote you “disgusting” because essentially and I quote again “the person, in pretending to be a victim, is attempting to shut down said criticism and thus is a “liar” who opposes attempt at truth. They also use the severity and nature of actual victims and thus downplay true victim’s suffering, and this especially is what makes such people immoral and shameless in their delusion because they are purposefully ignorant or careless towards the suffering of real victims and to the validity of criticisms”

and thats not mentioning prior posts like “the people who are using this on behalf of Anet seem to be the type to genuinely believe that they are the victims in this whole debacle” doesnt this imply you’re (as a group) the real victims here?

sorrychief.2563:

more importantly who cares about reddit?

Employees who use it as part of their job?

Savior.5783:

Galen Grey.4709:

Ashen.2907:

I still haven’t seen harassment of a dev.

I am not saying that all of the criticism of the handling of the pre-purchase announcements has been civil, but that is no more a harassment of an employee than would be a sign saying Exxon sucks after a preventable oilspill.

quote some from various posts
“The marketing department for Anet should be fired. No reprimand, no unpaid leave… Clean out your desk by the end of business hours.”

How about GaileGray being downvoted into oblivion to the point her account has now negative karma on reddit? and btw thats for posting this “Hey all. As I mentioned on another thread, we are really happy to be launching pre-purchase of Heart of Thorns! We just want to let you know that $50 is the price of the expansion. We included the core game as a free bonus to make it easier for new players to get into it. FYI: There won’t be any other HoT editions, just so you know.”

Reddit rules are clear you only downvote when posts arent related to the subject at hands not because you dont like what one is saying hence the down voting is clearly retaliatory which is harassment.

name calling is also considered harrasment and I dont know how you managed to miss the sea of that going on right now. Plenty of examples in this thread itself.

So downvoting comments on a website called reddit is harassment?

Lmao

Back then harassment used to mean being thrown garbage at, being ridiculed, continually abused and disrespected, and treated like trash for no good reason. I didn’t know having a red thumbs down is a part of that definition now. How respectful towards people that have faced actual harassment in their lives. Harassment is something perpetual.

no down voting comments is not harassment, down voting as a form of an attack is yes.

as with everything else there are degrees of severity.

Ashen.2907:

Galen Grey.4709:

Ashen.2907:

I still haven’t seen harassment of a dev.

I am not saying that all of the criticism of the handling of the pre-purchase announcements has been civil, but that is no more a harassment of an employee than would be a sign saying Exxon sucks after a preventable oilspill.

quote some from various posts
1) “The marketing department for Anet should be fired. No reprimand, no unpaid leave… Clean out your desk by the end of business hours.”

2) How about GaileGray being downvoted into oblivion to the point her account has now negative karma on reddit? and btw thats for posting this “Hey all. As I mentioned on another thread, we are really happy to be launching pre-purchase of Heart of Thorns! We just want to let you know that $50 is the price of the expansion. We included the core game as a free bonus to make it easier for new players to get into it. FYI: There won’t be any other HoT editions, just so you know.”

Reddit rules are clear you only downvote when posts arent related to the subject at hands not because you dont like what one is saying hence the down voting is clearly retaliatory which is harassment.

3) name calling is also considered harrasment and I dont know how you managed to miss the sea of that going on right now. Plenty of examples in this thread itself.

Numbering mine to aid in response.

1) Not harassment.

2) Not harassment but, if your description of reddit rules is correct, certainly actionable by the reddit staff.

3) For example ?

2. I really think you need to brush up on the definition of harassment. In a nutshell it is behavior that makes one feel distressed, humiliated or threatened. Being called incompetent and that you should be fired actually manages to hit all three at once.

as for 2. what reason was she down voted as not as an attempt to cause her distress?

3. seriously? fine “immoral and shameless people”

Savior.5783:

Galen Grey.4709:

thing is them being immoral and shameless is your own personal opinion. You may be right but you may also be wrong. If you’re wrong what happens to your justifications then? Even if you’re right do you believe all 350 people working at Arenanet are guilty? do they deserve your rude / hurtful comments too?

Playing the victim card when being criticized by reasonable and logical points is immoral because the person, in pretending to be a victim, is attempting to shut down said criticism and thus is a “liar” who opposes attempt at truth. They also use the severity and nature of actual victims and thus downplay true victim’s suffering, and this especially is what makes such people immoral and shameless in their delusion because they are purposefully ignorant or careless towards the suffering of real victims and to the validity of criticisms (thus they are opposing the desire for uncovering truth, which we should all agree is a good thing to uncover truth no matter what it is)

lets start with the basic fact no one is playing the victim card. Saying certain attitude is not acceptable is not the same as saying you’re being victimize. Besides the coin has two faces. Wouldnt what you’re saying equaly apply to those claiming they’re being unfairly silenced by the other party because of the rudeness?

I mean just to prove the point you yourself used the term “real victims” just to drive in the point you feel victimized!

so wouldnt it be better to express your critizism politely so that no one feels victimize and uses that as a weapon to get out of seeking the truth?

since when reasonable and logical points can only be expressed through attacks, name calling and rudeness?

Ashen.2907:

I still haven’t seen harassment of a dev.

I am not saying that all of the criticism of the handling of the pre-purchase announcements has been civil, but that is no more a harassment of an employee than would be a sign saying Exxon sucks after a preventable oilspill.

quote some from various posts
“The marketing department for Anet should be fired. No reprimand, no unpaid leave… Clean out your desk by the end of business hours.”

How about GaileGray being downvoted into oblivion to the point her account has now negative karma on reddit? and btw thats for posting this “Hey all. As I mentioned on another thread, we are really happy to be launching pre-purchase of Heart of Thorns! We just want to let you know that $50 is the price of the expansion. We included the core game as a free bonus to make it easier for new players to get into it. FYI: There won’t be any other HoT editions, just so you know.”

Reddit rules are clear you only downvote when posts arent related to the subject at hands not because you dont like what one is saying hence the down voting is clearly retaliatory which is harassment.

name calling is also considered harrasment and I dont know how you managed to miss the sea of that going on right now. Plenty of examples in this thread itself.

Savior.5783:

Galen Grey.4709:

Savior.5783:

I like how there’s no actual substance or argument in that and it appealed solely to emotion, acting one-sided as if Anet is this poor, delicate little flower who get’s easily hurt by criticism.

This is actually a disgusting attempt to shut down any criticism people are giving against HoT by claiming that Anet has been so terribly hurt. And who are the people acting this way? The people defending HoT. It really is pathetic. Show some respect to Anet, they’re not pathetic enough to be crushed by mean wittle words

You guys are very good at using the “innocent victim” guise.

yes you got us, its a clever way to shut down criticism in disguise because naturally there is no way to criticism something without attacking and being hurtful to the people creating that something. Ergo if we get our way and people start simply being polite all criticism will seize.

dont try to justify being rude and hurtful with freedom of speech please. Being respectful doesn’t diminish communication in anyway in fact generally is quite the opposite. After all the saying goes “you catch more bees with honey” it doesnt say “you catch more bees with poison”

Lol what? I justify being rude and hurtful towards people who are knowingly being immoral and shameless people. Claiming victimhood is just that- it’s disgusting.

thing is them being immoral and shameless is your own personal opinion. You may be right but you may also be wrong. If you’re wrong what happens to your justifications then? Even if you’re right do you believe all 350 people working at Arenanet are guilty? do they deserve your rude / hurtful comments too?

Xenon.4537:

Galen Grey.4709:

Xenon.4537:

Citation needed. Where is the harassment? Or is this Gamergate all over again with Anita Sarkeesian?

lol citation needed? do you think all the journalists currently perplexed by the over reaction of fans is all fantasy?

Just because a bunch of journalists are perplexed means nothing. That is argumentum ad populum.

But of course as usual these things are always one side. The side you dont agree with is always the one with the fallacy. A bunch of journalist say the community is over reacting then it must be argumentum ad populum. There is no way the complaints of the community itself being argumentum ad populum. I dont know considering the complaint I’ve seen repeated the most is people feel they shouldnt pay for the core game again I am not quite sure I agree which side is guilty of that fallacy really.

Xenon.4537:

Galen Grey.4709:

or Ruby who posted on her twitter how she got angry in game mail about the whole pre-purchase thing.

Would you kindly provide a link to that hate mail?

She didnt specifically share the hate mail but she did point out it was and I quote “yelling at her” doubt she said that about a respectful mail. She also added another tweet saying she sometimes regrets sharing her accounts with the world for this reason. which is sad

Savior.5783:

I like how there’s no actual substance or argument in that and it appealed solely to emotion, acting one-sided as if Anet is this poor, delicate little flower who get’s easily hurt by criticism.

This is actually a disgusting attempt to shut down any criticism people are giving against HoT by claiming that Anet has been so terribly hurt. And who are the people acting this way? The people defending HoT. It really is pathetic. Show some respect to Anet, they’re not pathetic enough to be crushed by mean wittle words

You guys are very good at using the “innocent victim” guise.

yes you got us, its a clever way to shut down criticism in disguise because naturally there is no way to criticism something without attacking and being hurtful to the people creating that something. Ergo if we get our way and people start simply being polite all criticism will seize.

dont try to justify being rude and hurtful with freedom of speech please. Being respectful doesn’t diminish communication in anyway in fact generally is quite the opposite. After all the saying goes “you catch more bees with honey” it doesnt say “you catch more bees with poison”

Xenon.4537:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3aamx8/gw2_lash_and_love/csbep7t

^^^^^^^^^

This was posted in response to a reddit thread in which a blog post took tweets from Anet devs out of context and attempted to paint the GW2 community as a violent hate mob. I just wanted to dispel some of the fog clouding this aspect of the recent controversy.

Obviously personal attacks on devs who have nothing to do with marketing is deplorable. However, there is no real evidence that this has occurred. So far, it’s just a lot of upset customers voicing their opinions on marketing. In my humble opinion, guilt-tripping people with a false narrative is just as deplorable as actual harassment.

Please folks, lets stick to the facts and evidence.

The article you’re referring to didnt paint the community as a"violent hate mob" at all. It only stated some are insensitive and use hurtful words.

and for clarity in the link you posted doesnt say the author of that article took tweets out of context. It actually says readers might take that tweet and other tweets he made out of context and conclude he’s complaining that he is being harassed when he is not.

Harassment takes many forms calling people liars, cheats and worst hurts especially when its not true. Urging others to boycott their works threatens their livelihood and that too is a form of harassment. There were even attempts to dehumanize the devs by making refusing to see anything beyond the corporate entity. Asking for certain teams to be removed / fired is also a form of harassment

Yes that article is perfectly right things have gone way to far. I dont expect everyone to agree with every decision Arenanet makes but hey just cause one does not agree with a specific promotion they’re running does that mean they should call a boycott, ask for people to get fired. Could people simply calmly explain their issue and what they expect without any form of attacks? Its not like doing that never led anywhere either! pointing at Trait unlocking as an example.

Ashen.2907:

Galen Grey.4709:

Ashen.2907:

Galen Grey.4709:

Xenon.4537:

Citation needed. Where is the harassment? Or is this Gamergate all over again with Anita Sarkeesian?

lol citation needed? do you think all the journalists currently perplexed by the over reaction of fans is all fantasy? OP’s post is all fantasy which also includes comments by the devs themselves! or Ruby who posted on her twitter how she got angry in game mail about the whole pre-purchase thing.

The writer of the article quoted devs in a manner to support the article’s position. At least one of those devs has since stated that they were not so targeted/affected and that the writer used the quote out of context.

When the, “journalists,” have to lie to make their point they arent really journalists and dont really have a point.

I just personally checked each and every one of the quoted twitters. Not one of them claims to have been quoted out of context, the closest message there is one saying they dont feel personally attacked but later on clarifies that some comments are indeed hurtful.

so unless the quote you mentioned was posted outside of twitter the journalist didnt lie to make his point.

It was posted in the reddit thread linked in this thread.

Okey found it, its alot closer to your claims but still doesnt say the author quoted the dev out of context, it says that people might take the quote in context with other tweets they made and incorrectly understand the dev implied the community has been harassing when they dont feel they were.

Author of the Article OP posted didnt remove any context of what was said and didnt twist what was being said either ergo they didnt lie to get across a false point.

Lets not forget the article didnt quote 1 person but multiple too.

Anyhow you dont need the devs to tell you the community is going too far. Should be pretty clear that devs are passionate about their job and were expecting a positive reaction. Bet some couldnt wait to start seeing reactions coming in so they could rejoice together with the community. Instead a move of good will (giving away the game for free) backfired and instead they found themselves being essentially called a number of things that naturally hurt, especially in context of yourself having the best of intentions.

Ashen.2907:

Galen Grey.4709:

Xenon.4537:

Citation needed. Where is the harassment? Or is this Gamergate all over again with Anita Sarkeesian?

lol citation needed? do you think all the journalists currently perplexed by the over reaction of fans is all fantasy? OP’s post is all fantasy which also includes comments by the devs themselves! or Ruby who posted on her twitter how she got angry in game mail about the whole pre-purchase thing.

The writer of the article quoted devs in a manner to support the article’s position. At least one of those devs has since stated that they were not so targeted/affected and that the writer used the quote out of context.

When the, “journalists,” have to lie to make their point they arent really journalists and dont really have a point.

I just personally checked each and every one of the quoted twitters. Not one of them claims to have been quoted out of context, the closest message there is one saying they dont feel personally attacked but later on clarifies that some comments are indeed hurtful.

so unless the quote you mentioned was posted outside of twitter the journalist didnt lie to make his point.

Ironically the most common complaint about this whole saga is people complaining they feel they should not be paying for the core game cause they already own it which is clearly the real lie after its been explained over and over again that the core game is being given away for free not against payment.

Still I dont think anyones opinion should be disregarded even if they exaggerate a bit to make their point. They might be behaving unfairly but there is still a reason behind their actions / statements.

Xenon.4537:

Citation needed. Where is the harassment? Or is this Gamergate all over again with Anita Sarkeesian?

lol citation needed? do you think all the journalists currently perplexed by the over reaction of fans is all fantasy? OP’s post is all fantasy which also includes comments by the devs themselves! or Ruby who posted on her twitter how she got angry in game mail about the whole pre-purchase thing.