Guild Wars 2

Kitsune.1902:

Nothing in what I read in this thread, disputed the OP in a way I would find plausible – based on what I read on druid spec. It seems clear that everything about druid elite is about healing. Staff skills, glyphs, profession mechanic, even specialisations – it’s all geared on healing. Weapon swap isn’t going to swap your specialisations, or your utility skills, or your profession mechanic.

Yeah, because you can’t swap your utility skills or specializations in an instance…

Kitsune.1902:

Yes, you have an option to do ‘hybrid’ of some kind, by simply not using the glyphs. But then what’s the point of the elite spec? You have a full spec tree dedicated for healing, which will be basically wasted unless that’s what you focus on.

Explain how a build isn’t a hybrid unless you completely ignore that you can take 2 other spec lines and you have the option swap in whatever utilities you want, use whatever gear types you want or what weapon skills you want to use.

And the spec line does have traits that do more than heal. There is soft and hard CC in the tree. Are you intentionally ignoring that?

Kitsune.1902:

The way I see it this leads back to OP. Nothing in the current game content requires that much healing. And if that much healing isn’t needed then it’s not wanted in groups either – because it means one group member is contributing next to nothing to DPS. Taking in a druid to the group means that -everyone else- will have to alter their build and approach, and that’s not going to happen. Not to mention you can clear almost anything with a group that maximizes DPS anyway (and sometimes that’s not just possible, but pretty much required).. in which case giving up a DPS ‘slot’ for healer is simply a straight out loss.

Even -if- some of the new content required more healing power, that would still make it useless elite in more than 99% of scenarios. And having your elite spec dedicated to some almost non-existent content like that doesn’t sound very tempting.

On top of that, in all honestly the elite sounded boring. Ranger already feels like too simplistic profession, and I was kind of hoping this elite would bring something more complex on table, but it doesn’t sound like that’s going to happen.

There might be one slight saving grace in this. Part of ranger’s damage comes from the pet, and going to druid spec shouldn’t affect that overly much. So even if your own DPS goes to toilet, it doesn’t affect you quite as absolutely as it might another profession.

You should preface your argument with PvP, WvW or PvE. Obviously you’re talking from a PvE point of view and I’d agree with you about most content not needed a lot of healing but that still doesn’t invalidate the other portions of the game that may benefit from a specific specialization.

However, I can’t agree with you because your speculation is far too close-minded. You’ve obviously jumped on the “It’s a healer ONLY” bandwagon and forewent any other possible combinations of skills resulting in new approaches for the Ranger. I mean, you do realize much of the complaints about Ranger in groups was their lack of group support, yes? Not only does the spec offer a good amount of possible healing but also the amount of CC (dazes and immobilize) can offer lots of added benefit for your group and your pet.

Posters like yourself, I can almost certainly read exactly your viewpoint like an open book: The Ranger didn’t get a perma-stow pet or non-pet spec option thus it already was a strike-out for you. It’d be a lot easier if you help the entire forum out if you just admit this first and cease all this “omg healz, DOOM” nonsense.

ODB.6891:

Leo G.4501:

Gav.1425:

Torolan.5816:

That´s what I love most about this forum, people always assume the worst to happen and are never satisfied with a viable solution that is not the most efficient.

How hard can it be to tell on TS that the ranger should not use the 4 on longbow, put his tanky bear pet away for some other, totally irrelevant pet and put some healing gear on?^^

It’s hard enough to get a pug ranger to run spotter, let alone swap his entire build, gear, and playstyle for you.

Pushing trinity forces an even more strict meta.

Shall I use the advice spouted to those dirty PUG play-how-you-want players?

Try joining a guild for your group content ^^

How does that statement even apply to this situation? What makes you think players in a guild are any better than random pugs? How does being in a guild change either the need for, effectiveness of, or desirability of a particular profession/specialiation?

The point I was replying to was “It’s hard enough to get a pug ranger to run spotter, let alone swap his entire build, gear, and playstyle for you.” If you guys are in a guild, you’ve got a pool of people with a more focused goal and expectations and if the Ranger doesn’t want to do what the group wants, likely they will drop him and invite another guild member who will listen.

And this is coming from a player who tends to stay away from guilds and mostly PuG. If you have to have a druid healer and not a guardian healer or revenant healer or elementalist healer then you need to be in a guild to make finding what you “need” much simpler. In a PuG group, it’s more likely than not you will either be forced to use whatever or you’ll stupidly be waiting when you don’t really need to.

Gav.1425:

Torolan.5816:

That´s what I love most about this forum, people always assume the worst to happen and are never satisfied with a viable solution that is not the most efficient.

How hard can it be to tell on TS that the ranger should not use the 4 on longbow, put his tanky bear pet away for some other, totally irrelevant pet and put some healing gear on?^^

It’s hard enough to get a pug ranger to run spotter, let alone swap his entire build, gear, and playstyle for you.

Pushing trinity forces an even more strict meta.

Shall I use the advice spouted to those dirty PUG play-how-you-want players?

Try joining a guild for your group content ^^

Sylent.3165:

Scenario 1 – raids are truly difficult, a dedicated healer is needed. That would be a druid. So if that’s the case every one will need a druid, raids will be sitting in lfg needing a druid. Thus creating the issue anet stated this game would never have of needing a dedicated healer or tank to do things thus no queues.

There are support/heal builds on other professions. Mesmer can pump out a high stream of big healing and Elementalist can push out lots of condi cleanse + water fields and Tempest offers other options if you want to specialize in healing. Warrior can push out lots of healing actively and passively. There’s also the need for boons and defensive conditions for support. Professions like Thief and Necromancer have their own means of support as well as pushing out lots of blind and weakness.

Sylent.3165:

Scenario 2 – druid isn’t needed. A full dps team or team with minimal valkyrie or knights armor can still beat the raids making druid 100% useless and simply not needed.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Build-MAD-SEED-DRUID-a-selfish-druid/first#post5536104

Ice storm currently does have ice shards that hit multiple targets.

Argon.1563:

Why they would use an Asura, ill never know. It would be better to use a Charr or Norn, since they’re the biggest possible thing that would need to fit through a doorway.

Maybe because Asura and their larger heads are more simple in their proportions with just being 4 heads tall?

Hylox.9746:

my zerk longbow ranger does way more dmg than what the druid was shown on the stream. + my lb ranger has piercing arrows which lets me do a little bit of aoe consistantly. how will healing give me access to more drops?

Sometimes I wonder if posters here have any logic at all. Why would a druid that has access to a lot of group healing and support do as much damage as a longbow zerk ranger?

If you’re complaining that the devs didn’t introduce a spec that does more damage than any current ranger despite many complaints about the profession being unwanted because it can’t provide support…I’ll just let you reread that sentence out loud and maybe you’ll understand the lapse of logic here.

Not only that but that whole “Tether foes to you and deal damage to them that you suffer” is powerful as kitten. And you can still transfer damage that is reduced by boons?

mrstealth.6701:

That was about HoT and Druids, not the rest of the game’s content. It’s a given that the Druid will be pretty much useless/redundant in all existing content. because all of it was designed to be completed while relying on self-healing and limited support.

Looking at the Druid I see a spec that is likely to be required for one aspect of the game (raids), going against the core design of the game, while being useless/unwanted in the rest of pve. The only other place I see Druid shining is in wvw, where it could potentially be extremely overpowered (which looks probable from what has been said).

I’d like to be wrong here, and see the Druid as just a viable option to take a more DPS-focused party that lacks other defense/support roles. But I see it being more likely that the Druid will be too powerful a healer for the rest of the party to make up for in its absence, without sacrificing too much DPS for support.

Um, isn’t that how current specs work now? There are specs that are not optimal thus do not get played in PvE but are more useful and wanted in WvW or sPvP. I mean, do you suggest taking a trapper Ranger to dungeons or world bosses? Do you take bunker/celestial ele into Fractals?

I can’t play Scepter at this moment without ground-targeted Dragon’s Tooth. I also can’t help but just get rid of Icebow off my bar currently in disgust. They may have over-nerfed Icebow. 50% damage reduction? Ow but okay. Only 3 targets? I can accept that. Both? Well…can we get have some QoL improvements like weapon-swap being a “Conjure Storer” for ele…even if you have to trait for it!

Also, please please help the skills of Scepter:
-Make Arc Lightning a wider line or make the attack “chain” to 2 more targets + scale the damage higher toward the end of the channel.
-Make Lightning Strike a small AoE or slightly increase the damage + apply weakness.
-Increase the range of Ice Shards!
-Drastically increase the damage of Shatterstone and apply some kind of beneficial effect if you’re within it (convert conditions, extend boons, protection from boon loss, increase damage mitigation, something…) and increase the cooldown if necessary.
-Lower the cast of Stone Shards and/or make it a piercing skill and extend the bleed duration.
-Make Dust Devil a Whirl finisher on top of increasing damage.

Azzer.8137:

Also, a healing mantra mesmer can spam an almost 3000 heal every 3-4 second with no healing gear

Curious. How much does healing gear affect the healing mesmer build? Also, being able to nullify a portion of damage all the time aids in the support type build.

mrstealth.6701:

Leo G.4501

Op, you don’t find it rude to accuse someone of lying? Have you ever considered you have a bias that imposed a certain viewpoint of the game’s situation and balance? And would it be a bad thing to take in the perspectives of other players in regards to balance, previous, current and future?

It’s not just one person’s viewpoint, it’s what the devs outright stated years ago (and have continued stating through present day). That there would be no waiting for a healer to complete your party, that you could take whoever you had complete any content. We can’t say for certain whether or not that core philosophy is being abandoned, but given today’s info I think it’s reasonable to question it.

So you’re pretty much guessing yet you’ll go to the extreme to call someone a liar despite your lack of evidence or first-hand knowledge?

I wouldn’t call the devs liars for introducing healing options to the game but that’s because from my perspective, they never said an encounter wouldn’t require specific conditions be met, they said you wouldn’t have to wait for a specific profession to complete those conditions. To me, what that means is if you have a Warrior, Thief, Necromancer and Mesmer, and you needed some sort of anchor-guy or healer-guy for a battle, you wouldn’t have to wait for a Guardian or Elementalist (or Druid in this instance) to invite but just take whatever is available and change someone’s build to the desired anchor-guy or healer-guy because all professions can manage the roles in their own style.

I’m not against the devs going against the perceived philosophy because the perceived philosophy is that, so long as you have enough aegis, blind, reflect and damage, the game won’t ask you to do anything more and you’ll be able to blast through content. If the game, at some point, asks you to sustain instead? Or to keep something alive? Or to control the foes? There is nothing wrong with that.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Oh yes, Predators Onslaught. Except, everything that goes great with that trait. Literally every ranger weapon can trigger that trait. Not to mention most pets have snares plus CC as well and lets not forget all the utilities that also cripple, CC and chill.

Are you slow? Ancient Seeds is a trait not a skill. That and you can easily stack them or replace one effect (either trait, pet or skill activation) to utilize such effects not to mention it goes the other way too (many skills would trigger Ancient Seeds thus continuing to trigger other effects).

Nova Stiker.8396:

Grace of the Land + Bark Skin/Loud Whistle? LOL how do those even go great together? You got a condition duration reduction and health thresholds. It’s good because tanky? Er, what is you are pure zerker?

So every build has to 100% be aimed at pure zerk? You’ve got 4 other trait lines for that! But even then, Bark Skin lowers physical damage of pets while above 90% while Loud Whistle improves pet damage while above 90%, Grace of the Land just covers the condition damage side not to mention you can start cleansing and heal your pet with Celestial form. It synergizes with a Beastmaster build.

Lets look at Tempest shall we?

• Element Bastion – Auras you apply heal allies. Apply a frost aura to yourself and nearby allies when struck while below the health threshold.

Works great with:

• Unstable Conduit – Overloading an attunement grants an aura based on the element you’re attuned to when the ability is completed.
• Powerful Aura – When you apply an aura to yourself, grant that aura to all nearby allies as well.
• Soothing Ice – Gain regeneration and frost aura when critically hit.
• Elemental Shielding – Gain protection when applying an aura to yourself or an ally.
• Tempest Defense – Surround yourself with a Shocking Aura when disabled
• Conjurer – Gain fire aura when an ally picks up a conjured weapon.
• Sunspot – Inflict damage at your location when you attune to fire and gain a fire aura.
• One with Fire – Fire auras you apply last longer and grant might when applied.
• Zephyr’s Boon – Auras grant fury and swiftness when applied.

Have you even played Tempest? The only real synergy Elemental Bastion has is with a heal build and isn’t supplemented with Overload Water since you’ll be healing less by swapping from water. Powerful Auras doesn’t work properly with the various skills and abilities and practically all the other stuff is just “apply this boon when applying an aura” which is painful to sacrifice a trait for a short-lasting boon.

BUT I DON’T WANNA USE AURAS AS A TEMPEST!
No problem! Lets focus on those overcharges! Going for a glassy, damaging Tempest.

• Lucid Singularity – Remove and gain massive resistance to movement-impeding conditions while overloading your attunements.

Goes great with:

• Harmonious Conduit – Recharge from overloading an attunement is reduced
• Elemental Enchantment – Boon duration is increased, and attunements recharge faster.
• Fresh Air – Recharge air attunement on a critical hit.
• Stone Heart – You cannot be critically hit while attuned to earth.
• Pyromancer’s Puissance – Each skill you use while attuned to fire grants you might.

Hmm, I don’t believe you know what the word synergy even means…

Nova Stiker.8396:

Except, you CAN judge it. This isn’t an argument on how viable it is, no one can say that, this is an argument on how limiting it is.

It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that having an elite traitline that is healing focused and ONLY rewards healing is going to be limiting.

No it doesn’t. I wonder what that says about your argument then.

But apparently it does take a genius, who knew?

Who knew that the Ranger doesn’t have an ally to heal as an integral part of their performance and concept. Who knew indeed.

Linken.6345:

You do know what the argument is about right? its like they synergy bettwen specilisations.

An example.
Remorseless and Furious Grip or if you like Wilderness Knowledge or Windborne Notes

Thats 1 grandmaster trait working well with 3 other trait lines.

The druid dont have anything like that.

Are you serious?
Ancient Seeds + Moment of Clarity/Predator’s Onslaught
Grace of the Land + Bark Skin/Loud Whistle
Not to mention unique cool stuff like Celestial Shadow which can be utilized with other build types for additional utility such as a stealth trapper or something.

Nova Stiker.8396:

The only point you’ve made is how ignorant you are.

It possibly also has to do with the fact that we’ve only seen the trait line/skills and can’t make real judgement calls until we get our hands on it.

So the options are speak out of ignorance (because ignorance isn’t exactly a bad thing) or out of emotion (which is what you’re doing now). Your call.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Covering your incompetence by saying, “I don’t have time for you” will not save you from being terribly wrong.

I see you’re well versed in the art of irony.

Nova Stiker.8396:

There is only 1 build for the entire elite spec. It has absolutely no synergy with anything the ranger has.

Name 1 Druid trait that goes great with a Ranger trait.

If you spend more than 15sec theorycrafting, you might be able to see some synergies, such as the one with dazes. Already, I’ve seen quite a few Druid builds. Granted, they aren’t focused on Druid, but use the traits or utilities to complement a build. There’s the mad seeder build I’ve seen posted as well as the standard remorseless druid. Looking to theorycraft a support beastmaster, aimed at maximizing pet performance + personal safety.

Nemesis.6938:

Shinzan.2908:

That’s kind of the problem, druid seems so good at healing that unless other classes get a huge buff , healer druids might become required, don’t want to go back to lfg druid 8/10.

this 100%
either druid will be useless for pve or absolutely required making all other (heal)classes like guardian useless…
you cant “change the game meta” by simply doing that through one class

this seams just bad design/strategy

Patience is also required. There will likely be changes or additions so that each class can provide each aspect of group synergy (be it damage, anchor or support/CC). Like, for instance, support/CC/heal Warrior can be a great addition and can do much of its healing passively. If it must, it might be slightly improved to make it more even with Druid. But don’t get comfortable, Druid is likely going to have much of its performance curbed after the next BWE.

Op, you don’t find it rude to accuse someone of lying? Have you ever considered you have a bias that imposed a certain viewpoint of the game’s situation and balance? And would it be a bad thing to take in the perspectives of other players in regards to balance, previous, current and future?

Just because current ele can do a specific task doesn’t mean it’s unoriginal thus off the table. For instance, you mention means to stay in one attunement but just because you can sit in fire and spam skills on cooldown doesnt necessarily mean that is the desired result of such a style with little reward but holding onto power bonuses.

Granted i couldn’t say current tempest is one thing or another but it still has room to develop.

uhohhotdog.3598:

I made a thread about it already but I think the arcane line should have a focus on conjured weapons. It would change how attunements are used. It has the possibility of synergizing with the Tempest very well. It would better allow Eles to stay in attunement without penalty by swapping conjures like kits.

Acane line always focused on Arcane skills and i think it should stay that way. Fire is the conjure line and i think they should just improve its synergy in some way. Either that or they could improve the functionality of each individual conjure by the element it represents, so infuse some effects into earth line that would help earth shield.

Mirta.5029:

Leo G.4501:

Why would there be anything at this point in the story that needs to be exclusive to Norn and only Norn? What purpose does it serve? And most importantly: does it not make sense to include it in the other race branches?

because they have a different upbringing and a different worldview.

Did you notice how it was only charr that voted to be very aggressive towards all sylvari? They’re insinuating a witch hunt and it would make sense for them to branch off there.

Humans are big believers of Gods. Do you really think that they wouldn’t go off to ask for help?

Asura are machine based. You think they would branch off to try and invent something?

See? Different races, different perspectives, even if there is a sole one goal.

And? Asura’s inventions wouldn’t be exclusive to Asura, they would invent things for the Pact to use which include all races. The Human gods aren’t here so would that become a purposeful story point? The Charr may seem aggressive toward the Sylvari but they are a part of the Pact and soldiers that act without or against orders are considered insubordinate and thus punished and even if they take this route, what excludes Charr aggression from any others who feel the same?

FYI, I’m not against creating more unique story branches for races…on the contrary. They should even make more unique flavorisms for the profession you choose and even the crafting skills you have. But what I’m getting at is you have to make them purposeful and you can’t make them purposeful if we’re going to complain at every turn that things are exclusive to such and such.

Regarding the topic at hand, just because this ONE very specific flavorism is unique to the Sylvari story doesn’t mean there will only ever be such interesting additions for Sylvari and no one else or that this is the only instance where the choices you made for your character could have any sort of impact.

Mirta.5029:

Rhomulos.2089:

Mirta.5029:

MauricioCezar.2673:

Mirta.5029:

Ashen.2907:

So, should all of the order and race story elements have been shoehorned into my human Whispers character play through?

nah, I just believe that if you’re giving one race an exclusive quirk, others should get their own. Else only one race has a unique experience making it only worth it to play as that race and that race alone, as it’s extra lines and not changed story in general. Meaning currently sylvari is the only race with the full personal story experience. Which is wrong.

Every post you do contradicts yourself. Weren’t you saying this a few posts ago:

if I have to race switch in order to live trough the game’s full story and fully understand it then yes, it’s bad design. Your player should be treated equal no matter he is an altoholic or not.

So how you now say that it should be fair to every race have its own story specific content (What would make you obligated to roll all 5 races in order to live trough the game’s full story and fully understand it) ?

if everyone is exclusive then nobody is exclusive. Currently every race as a predefined amount of missions that are different from each other. Meaning it’s satisfying no matter which one you roll.
However if the story is the same for everyone, except for one race and the difference is more lines rather than a different story, then the only way to experience the full story line is to play that specific race.

As far as we know, the story will actually be different for Sylvari players. This means that it will benefit us to play both Sylvari and non-Sylvari throught he same instances, adding replayability.

I do hope that the story for other 4 races won’t be identical though. I mean at the last Season 2 cutscene we got to see charr going witchhunting for example. My point is that if sylvari-non sylvari stories are different, then so should be asura -norn – human – sylvari and charr.

Chimming in again here.

The thing about making unique story aspects for things like this is that, these unique portions of story has to make sense AND fulfill some purpose for the story. You then have to wonder, is having different story branches for Norn, Human, Asura and Charr, story branches that all differ from each other, of any purpose? Why would there be anything at this point in the story that needs to be exclusive to Norn and only Norn? What purpose does it serve? And most importantly: does it not make sense to include it in the other race branches?

The thing is here, it makes absolute sense for Sylvari to be the only ones to hear Mordremoth. That isn’t bad game design, that’s common sense. And one thing a good story holds strong to is common sense. If your reader begins to question things that are common sense (“So if Mordremoth has been calling to the Sylvari all this time, and my Norn can hear him in the fights in HoT, why was my Norn never able to hear Mordremoth before?”) then you’ve failed to keep a comprehensible narrative that will only get worse with more mistakes.

Mirta.5029:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Mirta.5029:

not leveling a class that’s supposed to be for cosmetic purposes only.

And that’s where you’re wrong. Different races aren’t just for different looks, they are there for different experiences. Otherwise there wouldn’t be racial skills and race specific story. If you never play a norn, you will never get to play the personal story that comes with it either. Same goes for this.

this isn’t race specific story. This is “lose out if you’re specifically not a sylvari”. Because no other races get anything special.

It’s just voice acting. If anything, a Sylvari might be around to give you the gist of what they heard. And even if they don’t, it’s another narrative angle to perceive the story from by shrouding parts of it in mystery for the player to speculate and piece together.

That said, you’re not losing out. You can still pick up a Sylvari character and hear the lines yourself.

What you’re seeing as a game design issue really isn’t because the game isn’t prohibiting you from experiencing it. It’s not really a problem from a narrative viewpoint either since it’s meant to be experienced differently but all the puzzle pieces will be filled to complete the same picture just in a different order.

The complaint brought about by the OP is the lack of being able to hear the lines spoken by the voice actor themselves to which I can just say ‘meh’. So many ways to alleviate that problem…

Mirta.5029:

MauricioCezar.2673:

First of all my friend, study design, game design, or narative design before yelling “This is bad design!!”.

Only because you heard this expression somwhere, don’t means you have what it takes to evaluate something as bad design or not.

As I see (In my 9 years of carreer as game designer), this is a a interesting narrative aspect, that brings much more in-depth to the world game lore in game itself, and not outside of it (Wiki/books/etcetera).

Another point to note, is that this is indeedly the only way to make it works. maybe we even hear him in the end of the story when we face mordremoth itself, but if the lore is fair enoguh in game, we as other races should not understand the dragon words, by the simply fact that its a non-translated language, so should not ever be understandable by any other race.

What you are asking, is basically the same as ask that the walls and graes in tyria written in new krytan to be rewritten in english for example. This game has a big way to immerse us in tyria world and lore, and I assure you my friend : This is good design.

I am finishing game design this year and it is most definitely bad design in my eyes. You’re making select players lose on the narrative for not leveling a class that’s supposed to be for cosmetic purposes only. Effectively you’re excluding 4/5ths of your audience from the narrative that you designed.

With just how much of season 2 of the LS was sylvari centric and with sylvari getting exclusive narrative lines now I am just sure that Anet favour sylvari over anything else.

Also you saying that people can’t criticize design if they don’t have a degree is the same as saying “you can’t criticize cooking if you’re not the cook!”. Your customers are always free to critique you.

I’d suggest you study harder then. This is called “replay value” and is present in a lot of games, new and classic.

NTDK.4897:

@OP: are you mad too that if u talk to Dessa in Fractal lobby as a sylvari, she has different dialogues? Or in the last fight against Scarlet, if you are an engi you would get a different dialogue when interacting with the console?

What if it’s just the OP really really REALLY likes the voice of Nolan North to the point of wanting to bottle up his excelled breath and listen to recordings of him ordering take out over the phone while he sleeps. Who cares if it’s creepy or sad? Have you ever thought maybe that’s how the OP feels, hmm?

latinkuro.7304:

Tommyknocker.6089:

Roll a sylvari, or better yet just wait a week and people will post the vids on youtube. I see nothing wrong with a race being unique, and seeing as it fits the dragon/plot in this case I say good job ANet.

Are you a [censored] I wanna play the story myself NOT watch some lame video about it !!!

I do NOT want to be forced to play a sylvari to hear this amazing actor’s work as mordremoth ! and NEITHER should anyone else !!!

This is bad design !

Well I want a harem of female Charr servants to answer my beck and call but we don’t all get what we want, now do we?

Khandarus.2738:

My only general problem in that, Charr don’t distinguish between female and male clothes so it makes sense for them to wear the same thing. Asura I have no clue about.

They need thigh and ankle straps to hold down their dangly bits?

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

Nephziel.6053:

I believe that_shaman already data-mined the Druid art.

Most exciting thing for me is absence of pet

That’s just the art for the background image of the trait line. It wouldn’t have a pet anyway.

I have some bad news for you…

Could always change might from a cumulatively stacking stat boost to a “your next hit/second of conditions/second of a channeled attack does [x] amount more damage” and rebalance the stack limits and durations around it. Then it doesnt matter how many stacks you can make, you’ll always need more and those that use it to maximize potential rather than wasting multiple stacks on auto attacks will win out.

Should have thrown in a line about looking like a Dredge made Windersday tree or something.

I suggested a rework to the combo effects many times, particularly to water and fire field blasts, and got so much flak for it.

The premise to why I thought it should happen is so that more varied combat approaches (things that didn’t involve huddling together and bursting down mob(s) asap) would see more use. But not only those combos, projectiles and whirls too…but that was before they started introducing so many whirls.

I think even the devs noticed how few whirl finisher skills they had in the game so introduced a whole slew of them. Now Reaper has 2 quick access whirls, Tempest has a whirl in an overload, Daredevil can whirl with a dodge, Scrapper has a “nothing but stationary whirl combo” utility…I’m sure there’s more but lots and lots of whirls now.

I think they should still improve them though. Same with projectile combos.

It’s one of the possible solutions (to give overloads bonuses to staying in an attunement) and one I personally hope they aim for.

I like your ideas but I hope some of the bonuses they intend to provide are more unique to make the spec a bit more special although the idea to provide increased attack speed is rather unique since elementalists don’t have sources of quickness readily available to them.

RebornbyFire.7913:

Honestly, though, my only real reasons for kicking the player out of the overloaded attunement were: 1) Interest — adding more fire to fire skills, for instance, is really a lot like that on-crit trait in Arcana and not necessarily interesting or different (i.e., I would still remain in water for healing, air for single-target damage, etc.);

That could be a possible avenue to deviate it from Arcane yet at the same time reflecting Arcane in another light…kind of like making Arcane’s opposite, if you will. But rather than on-crit, it utilizes other means of providing similar benefits. Just a thought.

and 2) Balance — I’m not sure how well an overload that adds more of the same type of power to skills that are already appropriately powerful in that area can be balanced (i.e., a Lightning Whip that causes a healing burst or raises water geysers or drops small ice fields for a limited time while you are locked out of water attunement might be fairly balance-able and still an interesting/powerful option; a Lightning Whip that does even more lightning damage/control while not really preventing you from accessing anything else might be almost impossible to properly balance without it being so weak as to be utterly unexciting).

I’d say, the way you’d balance that is “once you swap out of air, you don’t get those benefits anymore and require you to wait for the cooldown, ramp up and overload all over again”. Considering that the various utilities are spread through the different attunements, focusing on one at a time is already coming up with its balancing points. But beyond that, you don’t have to make the overloaded attunement do more of the same…instead of making water heal more, you can just make your spells hit more targets or something, instead of making your air hit harder you can make your air hit further, etc.

Really, though, you’re entirely right — and if the cooldown of the Overload is long enough, it should still be able to be balanced and awesome at the same time (hopefully). I also really like your idea that the on-hit effect could require the enemy to be in the persisting field to proc. That’s fantastic, and mechanically interesting. Further, I would love to see some organization of the Overloads to all have some sort of general common theme while also offering something powerful and at least a little unique — or at least not always easily available; right now they are sort of all over the place and bland.

Right, there are a lot of interesting and fun ideas being thrown around. I’d enjoy playing with a lot of them but we’ll just have to wait and see. I really do enjoy playing Tempest and channeling the overloads so I hope that part remains and they’ll be sure to make them worthwhile to use.

Orpheal.8263:

Nike.2631:

Orpheal.8263:

Forge is just an other word for Smith … rolleyes

Not in this language it isn’t.That’s like saying garage is another word for mechanic, clinic is another word for veterinarian, and post office is another word for mailman.

And if you think ‘forger’ means “a person who works hot metal” I have a surprise for you… but its a fake. A forgery, even.

And Ii have a surprise for you too, because it just means BOTH as its one of many english words with multiple meanings.
And yes, thats thats what a Forger with a hammer does, he works hot metal to create that way all kinds of things out of metal, like gyro technical drones and it would also fit with the fiery theme we saw from the introduction trailer.
However, as it looks Anet made a backdoor class design change here and changed the theme fterwards fro mfire theme to electro theme, but just kept the rocket rammer, because it was already shown in the trailer and it surely would have disappointed many people, if Anet would have told us, that they removed that skill due to design change reasons, so it was easier to keep it than to redesign that skill more to a steampunkish electrical alternative that doesn’t involve fiery rocket blasts, while working all the same.

Don’t missunderstabnd me wrong, personally I’d prefer it also, if Anet woudl have named it “Smith”, because thats for me also the proper profession term per se and not “Forger”, but its an existing word, that gets translated for the job of a smith, one who works hot metal with a hammer to create with it and his ressources all kinds of things out of metal and personally i’d always prefer a cool battlesmith over some silly junk collectors, that do that even for one of the player races as a kind of “punishment work”

A forge is not a Smith. A forge is a smithy, which is the work place for the Smith.

Now people keep saying that forger only means someone who creates fraudulent imitations but that isn’t the only definition. Forger means also someone who operates a forge. Nouns like that function under the basic rules of suffixes and prefixes where you can put an -er at the end and result in the desired meaning within your context just like made up words such as Chronomany can replace the end with -er to make the meaning refer to someone who uses Chronomancy.

That all being said, I don’t feel Smith or any related words fit the new spec because those professions imply working metal into tools and weapons but the scrapper works with more than just metal. There’s got to be some strong mechanical expertise at work to craft gyros that hover and fly and programming that allows for advanced actions such as rezzing downed allies or remote detonating. Tinkerer would be closer but lacks that in your face tone that the scrapper provides.

smekras.8203:

My only objection to the name is that I am not clear about how it should be treated by charr, both the Scrappers themselves (who may or may not be scrappers in the charr sense) and the rest of charr society.

Beyond that, however, it is perfect for what the elite specialisation is supposed to be. Both (or all three, if the above objection is resolved) meanings of it work nicely.

Well what would the other races say to the Charr or the Charr Scrappers who mention their definition of the term to them? And what do you think a Charr would say to an Engineer Charr with the Scrapper spec?

Language and culture is a lot more malleable than you think.

To answer my own questions: Likely, the other races will speak of their definitions and then the term will have a different meaning in the context of the other races interacting with the Charr. If said Charr Scrapper finds the term insulting coming from some they will likely make that fact known and warn them not to address them as such. In regards to Charr speaking with other Charr, they aren’t strangers to jabbing each other with words or outright insulting other Charr of other Legions. However, if that Charr Engineer outranks them, they may never attempt to address them as a Scrapper but by their rank only. As a sign of respect, any Charr refers to another by their rank so whether Scrapper has a negative tone is moot…they wouldn’t be addressed in such a way, just as you wouldn’t refer to a Charr as a Thief or a Necromancer, but as a Soldier, a Legionnaire or whatever.

Does it change the fact that what a Charr Engineer with the Scrapper spec is doing is Scrapper’s work (picking up scraps from the Pact Fleet and recycling them)?

Hvaran.6327:

TsukuZankaze.6951:

Did some looking at the POI, bulwark gyro has about 13k hp. im assuming the rest have about 8-9k. A little weak yeah, but the only 2 i see myself using are stealth and bulwark anyways. Maybe blast gyro for daze/knockback.

had same numbers by my watching. It’s kind of really makes them useless. Unless gyro has 50k hp with their mechanics in team fights of any kind it becomes uber bad.

liking the mechanics arround gyro, but health….not even 30k makes it just useless minion. taking in account that this mechanism is not even constantly attacking like other minions has it cds and follows it’s own ideas what to do mostly.

it may be balanced with it’s strong utility use and pretty short cd etc…but we should try it to say smth at least close to truth

choovanski.5462:

it’s not like engineer had problems vs thieves anyhow.

HP on gyros… can’t wait to see them die after flying thru ring of fire.

Walking in and out of Ring of Fire stacks too much (and too long) burn stacks.
Stop walking in and out of it. -Grouch©
https://docs.google.com/document/d/18XFYTY8MKQZRVDKhNvCKXDWKmVggj0JbQH25WBIIboM/pub#h.3qbvrg7fq7kg

30k!? You can’t be serious…

Eirdyne.9843:

WoodenPotatoes did a lore explanation of the Scrapper recently. Basically Scrappers are the dirty and bottom of Charr Society (or those cast into it). They are considered workers to be tossed at the worst jobs.

Worse is a subjective term. What other job could be worse than practically leaping into the jaws of an elder dragon to face down their minions on an unpredictable battleground?

Now before you go jumping to shove motivation down my Charr’s throat, work is work. Some jobs have to be done and whether it’s a task “below you” isn’t relevant when your expertise is building combat tools and weapons out of junk, which is what Engineers in GW2 do. I’d find it less dignifying for an Engineer not to jump at this task of pulling together the shambles that is the Pact one scrap at a time just because they value a useless title over getting the job done efficiently.

And let’s not forget the influence of other races. All 5 are working together now which means a blend of culture as well. I can see it now:

Norn Engineer: This pile of mess will take weeks to sift through.
Asura Engineer: If I had more golems, we can divide the work more efficiently.
Charr Engineer: Can’t we just make some golems then? Just use these parts…
Norn Engineer: …and this part and…~sigh~ my beard, we’ve only got 1 gyroscopic stabilizer…
Asura Engineer: Just keep picking through this junk and we’ll find more.
Charr Engineer: ~growl~ like scrapper’s work smashes a totaled airship engine with a sledge hammer
Asura Engineer: Scrapper?
Charr Engineer: Yeah, they’re the lowest rung on the military ladder. Practically on permanent junk detail.
Norn Engineer: …scrapper…I like it! Makes me want to swing a hammer too!
Asura Engineer: Perhaps, but even my scraps will result in technological masterpieces to marvel imagination.
Norn Engineer: Hey Scrapper, throw me that hammer!
Charr Engineer: ~growls~

Basically, what the term means to a Charr and what it means to the Pact can be two things. That’s isn’t necessarily a bad thing as normal language does that! What you’re pointing out is just an interesting quirk that likely brings more lore to light than it does dismantle it.

Wolfric.9380:

Stacking auras on the other side would be bad. I now it hurts and i would realy like to see fire auras stack, but this can get out of hands by stacking eles.
An the new rebound instant on 45 second cooldown would make it great. Not for its effect, just for the combinations possible.

I’m actually hoping more people latch onto the idea of a trait for tempest that boost auras by giving them additional effects instead of stacking them for perma application. It’s easier to balance and a more fun and meaningful change. I remember someone mentioning the idea earlier in the thread but can’t find it. But I had the same idea.

Karl! It’s a good idea! Auras you apply have additional effects! Just have to think what those effects would be (outside of applying boons/conditions on hit)

RebornbyFire.7913:

Suggestion

The idea seems to have been (and I believe was stated in the PoI to be) to offer eles a more frontline brawler (seems to have been a common theme with almost all the E-Specs, really) role (although daggers already fill that fairly well) that offers some allied support and uses a more deliberate and thoughtful attunement-swapping pace. So I suggest that overloads do the following:

Overloading an attunement should continue to be a channel (although perhaps somewhat shorter than currently) which pulses some kind of supporting effect to you and nearby allies (and some damage/negative effect to enemies) while channeling, which when completed kicks you out of that attunement into the next one but imbues your next several attacks (say, ten or fifteen) with an appropriately powerful effect from the overloaded element, and possibly also generates an appropriate field that follows you around.

• So, for instance, overloading Fire would, upon completion, kick you out of Fire into Air (and put Fire on an appropriately long recharge), but you would then be followed by a burning fire field for several seconds and your next (say, ten) attacks would be imbued with a powerful fire effect — like causing a firey AoE explosion on the target, or dropping a flaming meteor on the target/target area, or creating a lava font on any struck targets, or… you get the idea. Use your imagination!
• One of the Grandmaster Major traits should cause this next-several-hits buff to also apply in some form to nearby allies.
• Bonus Points: Let each overload have a flip skill that removes the field/weapon charges from you in exchange for area casting (say, 600 range) the overloaded effect in the form of an appropriate elemental tornado that persists for however long the effect was going to remain on you for.

No comment on the actual idea but one issue that will likely occur with such a suggestion is the complaint (and rightly so) that such would take control of skill usage away from the player. Having the game auto-kick you from an attunement into another will come with more problems such as Air pushing you into water attunement when you might not need to swap into it and thus putting you in a situation where you need to swap again and put water on cooldown which will then leave you in a troubling predictable state.

Commenting more on the idea now, why do you feel it is better to push you out of an attunement and give you an attunement-specific effect for X amount of spells vs just making that attunement’s spells have greater attunement effect? I.e., taking your flame burst for fire overload as an example, just give your fire skills a chance to flame burst or give your next X attacks flame burst or any foe touched by your flame tornado will explode in a flame burst if hit by a fire spell. Doing so retains control for the player and gives a specific new style of utilizing your attunements.

Reasoning

While this would require a considerable amount of thought for each of the particular weapon effects, I think it would make for a highly desirable and interesting choice for elementalists. It would, at least, fulfill the purpose of creating a somewhat new style of play, while also making overloads powerful and meaningful but still fairly balanceable (between numbers of charges, damage numbers, cooldowns, and duration of effect). But they would be interesting because they would offer players a chance to get a particular element’s effect while using a different one — but at the cost of being temporarily locked out of the first element. So one’s water attacks could temporarily call down lightning bolts, or one’s fireballs could heal nearby allies or chill or cause vulnerability or some combination of those. It’s at least an improvement in mechanics and interest and possibility from what we have right now, I think.

Thoughts?

I suppose but it’s not that different from what we have now. Currently, I can burn foes with my water skills, I can call down lightning bolts with my earth and water skills, I can heal allies with my fire balls, etc. Just taking traits (Burning Precision and Lightning Rod) and sigils do that. Is it amazing? Well, in some cases and in other cases, not so much. And is it new? I can’t say it is.

My personal opinion on Overloading Attunements is that, it’s like overflowing a container or overclocking a computer. Doing so doesn’t dump the whole container or shut down the computer (in some cases), it just pushes the limits. That’s what I’d like Overloading should work, pushing the limits of what you can do inside the attunement. Swapping attunements should be the “dumping” because I doubt the overload effects would really be ramped up to “dumping” the strength of the attunement’s capabilities out there all at once.

Ohoni.6057:

Wow, those are awesome changes, but maybe instead of a “dust-nado”, sandstorm or whatever the name, why not leave behind a crumbling ground like the elementalist down state skill “Grasping Earth”. Elementalist has a lot tornados already. XD

True, but it’s very thematic to the spec, and people were already complaining that “Tempest” was not being literal enough for them yet.

I agree with Akath. Dust devils and such have a precedence for causing blind and bleed, not not cripple, protection and bleed. Besides having nice variety, its more clarity of effect because it’s not a vfx thats taking up a lot of air space as well as being distinct from other tornado effects.

I’m rather surprised i didn’t think of the stunbreaker overload idea. Kudos, Nike! Very thematic and i hope it makes it into bwe3.

Regarding the changes, i like it. Im assuming the lightning jolt is a daze? Can we have said daze and damage use the tempest as the source so it can proc lightning rod?

Every attunement should have a kind of “proc on condition” trait like that just like lightning strike on interrupt and blind on burn…like weakness when you apply cripple for earth or icy burst when you remove conditions.

But back on topic, can fire overload also have added team utility? If you’re lowering its damage, can you think about some projectile destruction for it?

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

Maybe Anet have been spending too much time on Urban Dictionary, given that it’s an Asura shown too..

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=scrapper

Someone who looks small but is really wired and can kick some major kitten even though he doesn’t look like it.
“They started pickin on that guy over there and the little scrapper took ’em all. "

Thats just a reference to Scrappy Doo.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Xyonon.3987:

So I’m not native english and “scrapper” sounds like somone who tries to scrap a bit iron together and hopes to be able to build something with it :< Or what does “scrapper” mean? I mean “forge” was so epic, like “his mind is a forge for good ideas” and the scrapper is like the stupid brother of the forge :<

It refers to a mechanical/electrical intellectual, who can create devices out of what others would perceive, as very limited parts, salvaged from other objects.

There are multiple meanings to the title Scrapper.

The obvious one being “one who scraps things” so like a dismantler or who uses scraps for things such as a tinkerer who also specializes in dismantling things as well as building things.

The other definition is a fighter or competitor. Because “to scrap” also means to fight. In the late City of Heroes mmo, one of the base hero archetypes was the Scrapper who takes that definition completely and had powers that revolved around melee damage and survival. Think of the word “scrappy” in this term which relates to one who angers quickly and prone to engaging in fights or arguments.

There are also special forces in the military who go by the title of scrapper. I belive the deal with engineering and explosives.

Hmm, why is his face so flat?

I’m honestly rather confused. These changes aren’t half bad but it still feels like you’re kind of fumbling to get Tempest in the right direction. Many people have mentioned how awkward utilizing the Overloads in a standard Ele rotation is, partially because of the 5sec in-attunement wait and the other being the 20sec lock-out afterwards and the solution seems to be take out the option of a 15sec lock-out? Not that I think the 15sec option was a game changer for the problem but it looks like with the standard 20sec Overload/Attunement recharge and the whole “10% damage for completing an overload” you’re aiming for a intra-attunement rotation vs extra-attunement rotation style. But 10% damage bonus for 5sec is hardly an incentive not to mention that bonus isn’t really linked to staying in the attunement.

Would it really be asking too much to give that bonus a full 20sec while you remain in that attunement? Or some other attunement-specific bonus such as more endurance or boon duration for water overload, more armor or condition or combos with earth, more crit with air and more power with fire? Doing such gives options for multiple styles of Tempest such as condition specs would overload earth or something or running a precision-less glass build by overloading air, or support builds would keep overloading water, etc. A 10% bonus to damage only supports 1 spec.

And if this elite is more aimed at overloading an attunement and thus fewer attunement swaps, shouldn’kittens traits reflect such a style similar to how the Arcane line reflects the style of swapping attunements more often?

Not bad changes. There are specifics I’d like cleared up, like the changes to Speedy Conduit (what about Hardy Conduit?), does Rebound wear off once you take the lethal damage? How does this interact with damaging conditions? Also, are you looking into giving Warhorn Air 5 some usefulness?

Wolfric.9380:

I would do balace by simplification. Tempest is diffrent an for less ele swaping.
To take that route you can just substitute ele swaps with a weapon swap on 6-5 s CD.

Or you take mysugestion of the dormalt element trait. That removes untraited elements from swaping but permanently give their passive abilities.
This lowers the skill floor, is not OP and fits the current tempest. Must not be admitted by old ele´s but will give a good feeling for a lot of players. It would be largly diffrent. If its underpowed numbers is all it would need…

Not that it’s a bad idea, just unlikely.

I think they could make “attunement specialization” possible without needing to take the other attunements away and introducing weapon swap. Just give the Tempest more ways to utilize the various trait line minors. Examples as follows:

Tempest minor master [Speedy Conduit] Grants swiftness while overloading and trigger enhanced master minor traits you have.

• Fire = Cast Sunspot at the start of overload
• Air = Pulse Electric Discharge while overloading.
• Earth = Earthen Blast at then end of an overload, range boosted to 300 even when swapping.
• Water = Cast Healing ripple at the start of overload, heal 8 targets instead of 5.

Tempest minor grandmaster [Hardy Conduit] Grants protection while overloading and triggers enhances adept and grandmaster traits you have.

• Fire = Overload stacks Empowering flame 3 times for 10sec, Burning Rage also reduces damage you receive from burning foes.
• Air = Cast Zephyr’s Speed at the end of an overload. Zephyr’s Speed grants quickness and superspeed. Weakspot boosts critical hit chance vs vulnerable foes.
• Earth = Overload stacks Stone Flesh 3 times for 10sec, Geomancer’s Defense applies to all allies within 300 range (5 targets; does not stack with multiple applications)
• Water = Aquatic Benevolence applies to self as well as 2x to allies; Soothing Mist last for 2x as long.

LeviQuiteQuirky.6892:

Malchior.5732:

That’s the problem though, there’s nothing encouraging you to do this.
Most of your weapon skills are designed with Attunement Swapping in mind, hence the large cooldowns and the crappy auto-attacks.
Then we go into the traits and well, the Tempest is a mess that doesn’t work very well with the base Ele.

I understand what you mean. I honestly feel like this is more of a step back and feels like an introductory noob-friendly trait line, just to give people more support in getting used to each individual attunement. The fact that it’s “Elite” baffles me a little as I feel it would be more useful before level 80

Is that a bad thing though? Even if it seems a more “introductory noob-friendly” set-up, there are also the more vet players that have played and learned current Ele but simply want the ability to “specialize one attunement”, be it for visual or for roleplay purposes or simply because they think it’s a fun diversion. If they really did make it so that Tempest supported a more “attunement lock” style of playing it or a “specialize in bolstering an attunement” style, it would actually be a large variant of what can be accomplished currently via multiple swapping.

Yeah, there would be conflict between swap sigils or the arcane line, but you know what else conflicts with swaps and arcane? Any trait that requires you to remain in a specific attunement to benefit from them. There are ways you could make Tempest aim to focus on such traits as well as benefit new styles of build. We just haven’t gotten that far and it’s unsure if the devs actually want to take it that direction.

I’m of the opinion the trait line can only benefit if it takes a completely different approach than arcane or even the base ele style. Even if some vets wouldn’t play such a spec, at least it’d be hugely different and you can decide to utilize it when you’re get bored of the multi-swap style.

Tzozef.9841:

Jski.6180:

Malchior.5732:

Jski.6180:

Tzozef.9841:

What the Tempest should have been
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/What-the-Tempest-should-have-been/first#post5485180

No.

“I’m not gonna say why, just no, because I have no counter-arguments.”

It’s funny because Jski is constantly arguing against Tempest changes, but here he didn’t even try. That being said, I think his idea for the Tempest would have been infinitely cooler than what we have now; OP? Oh yes. 4x Healing Rain + Geyser? 4x Phoenix? 4x Obsidian Flesh? Crazy, but at least it’s a million times better than what we have now and doesn’t go against all of our trait lines.

If it becomes stronger then the ele class then yes. This is about tempest being a support class not being an support dps tank that simply is a power creep version of ele. If you truly like the ele class then you too would see the danger of making the elite spec to powerful just so you can play something “new.”

Keep in mind too, when I wrote that post, you gain access to Four of the same element for all Attunements, but you lose out on the other three. So even though you can use meteor shower three extra times, you lose out on Static field, Shockwave, and Healing Rain.

So it comes across OP when you look at it from a specific angle, however in reality, it doesn’t because of the trade-off and loss of versatility.

Basically my idea was to trade-off versatility for extremity, allowing the Ele as a Tempest, to go EXTREME into one attunement.

Well what happens when you just swap to the 2nd fire attunement then right back out to something else? Now you aren’t locked out of water and you still have 3 more fire attunements.