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Healers exist, they just do all their healing by pressing F on downed players and being tanky enough to live while reviving. Other than that they just throw around aoe buffs and condition removal while waiting for people to die.
Ultimately this is a lot less fun and interesting than using a range of targeted support/healing skills to keep allies alive as you would in other games. It also limits the variety of targets in a team fight, since the ‘healer’ is also an unkillable tank and not a viable alternative to attacking the squishy dps.
I pretty much agree with this.
The removal of the “holy trinity” is, IMO, mostly a joke because it only offers an illusion of versatility. While professions can technically fill any role, there will always be some profession which can perform any given role better than some other profession – and this is unavoidable unless you homogenize the entire game into a single class or have a classless progression system akin to Ultima Online or other sandbox MMO’s.
You end up with a system where necessity is marginalized but efficiency is exaggerated – i.e. you can bring several professions for single target spike, but if you want the best possible single target spike in the game, there’s really only one choice regardless of build diversity. The same goes for any other number of roles – one profession tends to edge out the others in terms of its efficiency at that role, and there it is.
The difference is pretty apparent:
- In a game with holy trinity intact, every class tends to have a clearly defined place and plays a clear role with strengths and weaknesses that tend to be counterbalanced by clear roles of other classes. You’re stuck with what you have, but at least there’s a minimal sense of ambiguity.
- In a classless sandbox game, players have access to a common pool of skills and abilities which can be used to define (from scratch) whatever role the player wants to fill. The consequent system can result in multitudes of counters and counters to counters (TSW had the right idea but failed for several reasons).
- In a class-based game with no holy trinity, your efficiency with any given role relative to other classes is predefined regardless of the fact that you can, to some extent, fill any of those roles – meaning that the choice, ultimately, isn’t really a choice at all, which basically just combines the worst aspects of pure holy trinity and pure sandbox while limiting the diversity that the game claims to promote. Sandbox games sometimes have this problem as well, depending on how they’re designed.
The system helps with some things on the PvE side, but in terms of gameplay dynamics it’s hardly a step forward at all imo.
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PS: reason why FPS dont use conquest is because in FPS you CANT just stand on point and defend it, in FPS there is NO defense, just attack, they are forced to play deatmatch or ctf or something because any sniper (or anyone else who can aim for headshot) would just 1 shot anyone standing on point and trying to defend it without him having a chance to defend himself
UT domination and its various derivatives want a word with you.
Tourney players most definitely do complain about thieves.
Powerr complains about them constantly on stream, though usually more about dancing dagger than backstab. Xeph and Phantaram also tend to make negative comments on stream after getting instaowned.
Also worth noting is that several of the current paid streamers (namely Powerr, Xeph, Phantaram, and some others) regularly complain about or [negatively] comment on backstab and/or dancing dagger damage after getting instagibbed and/or DD trolled while trying to revive someone.
It happens to everyone, at all levels of play.
It’s counterable, but when it happens in the middle of a teamfight there’s often very little counter-play involved. It’s a binary mechanic and most people have realized that by now.
If it’s highest damage that simply means you spammed your own stuff while debuffed with a lot of confusion stacks – probably cause you didn’t notice.
That said, there are situations where it’s unavoidable cause your condi removal decided to remove something other than confusion and casting nothing can sometimes be worse than casting something w/ confusion up.
Just gotta deal with it. It’s hardly the biggest offender in the realm of hands-off damage anyways… you’re probably better off kittening about retal or air runes.
One of the major ones being that WoW’s arena doesn’t take as much technical skill when you’re only running 2v2s or 3v3s in a very small area and your focus is only to murder one person on the enemy team.
That’s arguable.
At a micro level, the amount of individual skill required to actually make the first kill against a competent team is, imo, above and beyond what it would take to do the same in a GW2-era TDM environment.
For one, with the sheer amount of AoE and reactive proc damage in this game, players take tons of splash damage over the course of any given team fight that more often than not sees teams say things like “lol I just got here and already almost killed myself” or “hey swap to this target cause he’s almost dead even though we were never really focusing him in the first place”.
You never really saw that kind of thing with arena. Everything was deliberate. Every swap was time critical. Every cc chain was planned and had to be perfectly executed because of diminishing returns. Things like target of target and focus cast bars allowed players to make more informed decisions about what to do, when to do it, and who to do it to. Positioning was arguably more important cause eat a cs at the wrong time or fail to cleanse a root on your melee fast enough and your team was either done or far behind. Cancel casting and juking in general is/was a bigger part of arena than it is here. The kind of TTK that exists in this game from single sources is generally only possible in arena via setup from multiple sources (few exceptions apply that were all patched relatively quickly). So on and so forth.
At a macro level, the comparison is irrelevant if you’re trying to place GW2’s conquest maps next to arenas. You’d need to place them next to RBG’s, where the amount of technical skill required in terms of creating and executing strats is more or less equal.
IMO anyways.
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I hope you’re being overly dramatic for comedic effect, because there’s no other explanation as to why someone could say “5 pages of profession patch notes” and have it be interpreted as “No Elementalist changes”.
Not to mention the part of the post that said mesmers saw the fewest number of changes…
Few things -
1. Stealth in this game is considerably more powerful than stealth in many other MMO’s.
The ability to constantly weave in and out of stealth in the middle of combat is way stronger than having perma stealth out of combat and then being stuck out of stealth once you engage with the potential ability to re-enter stealth by blowing a longish cd. Pair this with the amount of visual noise in a given GW2 team fight and the number of AI elements that can exist on screen and the constant target dropping becomes a very real advantage.
Damage not breaking stealth is also pretty huge.
2. re: removal of burst and the resulting impact on point control -
I agree with the general point being made. However, there are better solutions than fostering the existence of sub-second TTK from a single source.
- Reduce the effectiveness of tanks by re-evaluating self-healing potential in the offending builds. Keep the relative ability of a bunker to outlast a single player, but make it progressively more difficult to survive a focused assault from multiple sources for very long.
- Implement diminishing returns for cc across the board.
- Implement a system wherein control of a node swings based on the number of players on the node from both teams. This way, a bunker holding off multiple players by himself will eventually lose the node anyway. The exact time required to neut a node in this fashion can be adjusted as necessary.
- Design larger maps and/or adjust portal functionality to increase the risk period for bunkers who are solo tanking multiple enemy players. Combined with some of the other suggestions, this can give teams more feasible windows of opportunity to turn matches around.
There are any number of ways around turtling – insane TTK is one of the least desirable imo.
“- “Some” balance changes.”
Oh, lord. I get the impression a lot of people are going to be very mad at this supposedly “big PvP patch.” As I feared, it’s shaping up to be nothing more than bug fixes, with no attempt whatsoever to fix any of the major problems with some of the classes right now.
Might be a little harsh since, for some classes, a lot of the major problems stem from bugs.
Either way, Jon also said that it’s going to be a “huge” patch so you never know.
any screen shot or link?
No, but I’ve no reason to mislead or exaggerate – everything mentioned was said as is and can be confirmed by anybody else from Stormbluff who was around at the time.
According to Jon Peters in the mists a few hours ago:
- The profession part of the upcoming patch notes is roughly 5 pages long.
- ~16 bullet points for rangers.
- ~30 bullet points for engis.
- Mesmers saw the fewest number of changes.
- “Tons” of bug fixes.
- “Some” balance changes.
- Portal is a cool ability that’s important to the game but has some problems (whatever that means from their perspective idk).
- The ability to use custom dyes in pvp is possibly coming in a December patch.
- Broken treb and lord announcements should be fixed soon.
- Target of target and player cast bars are low priority but something they might look at in the future.
- Probably no hope of ever letting us disable the terrible skill queue.
- Custom rankings, obs mode, etc. all “on the way” (as usual).
—
All in all, I think it’s pretty decent depending on what exactly gets fixed.
Somebody wants to turn this into arenajunkies 2.0 lol.
It’s unlikely to ever happen on official forums and it would be completely meaningless either way until there’s a real ladder with a widespread playerbase instead of the same handful of teams playing each other day in/day out.
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^You guys are way overthinking this.
Just give us the ability to duel in the mists or whatever and people will do it inbetween tourney queues, just like they do in every other game that has casual dueling in addition to ladder formats (i.e. most MMO’s outside of this one).
Balanced s/d and d/d eles can drop phantasm mesmers more or less consistently – they can take shatter mesmers as well, but it’s a lot harder to recover if you fail to avoid a shatter.
Despite them being lacking in the big picture, rangers with the appropriate build are probably one of the best 1v1 classes in the game right now, in my experience anyways. Engineers and ele’s are up there with them for best overall duelists.
You’d think thieves should be up there, but I really don’t think they are. In a strict 1v1 where both players are aware of each other, thieves are outclassed by a variety of other professions.
Hybrid symbol guardians are also a little over the top in 1v1’s right now.
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You can already do this.
Cheers.
He was referring to a system wherein, if you queue solo or duo, you’ll get matched up against other players who also queued solo or duo. Therefore, partial premades (or solo players) would not get matched up against full premades.
Currently, you can’t do this.
FOV (Field of View) Changes Beta Test - Feedback Thread
in Account & Technical Support
Posted by: Noctred.6732
Massive improvement over vanilla.
Thanks.
a glass cannon an ele walks around with 10k hp
Most glass ele builds have 16-17k depending on runes. Bunker builds typically have 13k or so.
I really think people are overvaluing vengeance.
1. Warriors are one of the easiest classes to stomp, so the chances of them getting vengeance off to begin with are slim.
2. Most warriors, afaik, don’t take sweet revenge. There are better traits for any number of different builds assuming they even go that far into discipline.
3. If for whatever reason they do pop vengeance, they’re unlikely to have any cd’s of consequence available so avoiding them for 15 secs should be a non-issue. If they happen to down you, chances are they’ll die before finishing the stomp.
4. Vengeance is still bugged and kills you a second time at your spawn if you die while vengeanced and respawn before the effect expires – which can basically turn an instant rez into a 20 sec rez. This means that using vengeance can actually be a bad thing, depending on the situation.
All in all, warrior downed state is pretty mediocre.
I don’t particularly enjoy the downed state in general but Adwila is correct – the entire game is balanced around it, so you can’t just remove it.
However, I wouldn’t mind if it was adjusted. Like… just make all the downed states identical or something. Reduce the damage players are able to put out while downed – I mean, do phantasmal rogues really need to hit for 5k and does trail of knives really need to cripple and bounce and do absurd damage and be affected by critical haste?
Makes no sense imo.
Also the rally system needs to be adjusted so that an entire team doesn’t insta-rally off of a single kill. Put a cap on it or something. Maybe even make it 1:1.
Mostly agreed with OP – I will be forever confused as to why this game even went live without a ladder and/or matchmaking considering all the pre-launch esports hype.
That said, I think bug fixes and balance changes are generally more important than ladders at this point simply because the pvp community in its current state doesn’t appear to be large enough to support multi-tiered matchmaking without massively inflating queue times, which would probably just piss more players off.
I mean, you typically only see a few dozen hotjoin servers filled at any give time of day (whereas all 300+ were usually packed at launch), you see the same few teams in paids, and you constantly see familiar names in frees. The population just appears to be really thin right now and matchmaking, while important, probably won’t get as many players back as simply fixing a lot of the outright broken kitten flying around in this game right now.
That duel was a pretty bad example of anything relevant but the general idea is mostly accurate – ele’s are strong in a variety of roles. They aren’t “forced” into anything. Balanced s/d and d/d specs are completely viable and have above average sustain while maintaining respectable spike potential – those builds usually also dominate glass thieves in 1v1’s.
Most of the problems with the class come down to bugs and the resulting lack of consistency with certain abilities.
Dunno how they’re classified but I do know that effects which increase stun duration also increase daze duration – or at least those sigils do.
I’m wondering how this dazelock attack sequence looks, could someone explain? I just tried to chain stealth/daze autoattack a golem and it was not possible due to immunity to stealth as long as the golem is dazed.
I believe it involves 6x mesmer runes and paralyzation sigils.
Autoattacks are very unlikely to stop the elixir R toss – you’re going to need to either stack real damage (usually from multiple sources) or blow the body out of the radius.
That said, I think the mechanic is fine as is.
[Edit]
At least with backstab you have the opportunity to pop immunities or whatever and attempt to mitigate the damage. When you’re perma dazed, you’re just kinda running around doing jack kitten and praying you don’t get owned because you’re 100% locked out of all abilities – repeatedly and with no diminishing returns.
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As has already been mentioned multiple times, you can break out of all kb’s and launches – you just need to wait until your toon is on the ground.
It’s obviously not immediate, but you’ll still break it well before the effect would normally end on its own.
The most effective use of dancing dagger is actually as a rez deterrent – spam it on somebody trying to revive a teammate and lol.
It’s incredibly powerful in that scenario and if people aren’t complaining about it yet, they will be soon enough.
Xeph.4513the fact that your upset at the rng factor of the air runes and sigils is also a moot point, mmo’s and moba’s alike have always the rng factor incorporated into them, crits and weapon procs have always and will always be around.
My problem isn’t with the existence of RNG in general, but with the amount of damage that the proc causes. MMO’s most definitely have not always had passive procs with that kind of damage potential – and when they did it was mostly due to unexpected stat scaling, which typically got fixed hard and fast.
So nah, it’s not a moot point because the point wasn’t even about the presence of the RNG factor, but the relative strength of the proc.
Air runes and air sigils do not share an ICD – they can both proc simultaneously for some pretty lol RNG damage that doesn’t belong in any game claiming to be competitive.
It’s like vial of shadows 2.0 – and we know how that turned out.
The command queueing system needs to be tweaked too.
There are situations with a variety of abilities where, for example, you can get kb’d or something in the small window after you press the hotkey but before the client fully completes the action – resulting in the ability going off after you’ve been knocked out of position and consequently causing you to completely whiff whatever you were trying to do.
Really kittening annoying.
I wish they’d do two things -
1. Make any kind of interrupt clear out your ability queue.
2. Give us a slider to modify the queue latency or a toggle to disable the queue altogether (preferably both).
They should just give the lord significant buffs for each mob that’s alive.
…and make them all chain pull.
Payneful.7934Seriously…… you obviously had frenzy up when you were hit by that. You’re not fooling anyone lol!
I’m not sure why anyone would advocate the existence of a RNG proc that has the potential to instaburst half of a player’s hp pool.
I mean, even without frenzy, that was still almost a 9k hit… from a random proc. You really think that’s healthy for a competitive game?
Next issue is that air runes are broken.
Yeah, brought that up in another thread recently after a necro crit himself with it for 6.5k (followed by a ~2k air sigil proc for roughly 8.5k instaburst) – random procs should never do that kind of damage.
Evincarr.6235Switching to a Great Sword isn’t going to help except for movement.
That was the point…
Either that or keep the hammer and replace axe/mace with sword/shield. You’re never going to kill a good condi spammer 1v1 without sustainable gap closers.
As a warrior you’re going to have a very hard time doing anything to a decent condi spammer 1v1. Engies will keep you perma blinded, rangers will kite you around forever, and necros you can actually kill sometimes so long as you live through well of darkness and keep chill off of yourself.
Soldier runes help, but ultimately not that much because your condi removal won’t be sustainable in relation to their condi application rate over an extended period of time.
Gap closers help – you’ll probably have an easier time with a greatsword than a hammer. Use a shield w/ missile deflection – it helps, especially against engineers if you time it right.
Ultimately though it’s always going to be an uphill battle.
Division.9618In matches with more than 3v3 people healing usually consisted of standing in the back and spamming heals on anyone that looked like they had low HP.
Thanks for proving my point I guess? When I said “competitive environment”, I meant against serious competition, not at sub-1500 ratings where people barely know what to do with their class.
Anyway, not trying to hijack the thread – just wanted to correct the absurdity of that “healers take no skill” comment.
Healers are a crutch. Often times they take no skill to play and they take away the need for skill from other characters. Why should i dodge when i know a healer can just heal me up if i take damage? Why do i need to put up stability or a stun breaker to break out of an enemies burst if a healer can just heal me before i die?
Spoken like someone who has probably never even attempted to fill a healing role in any kind of truly competitive environment.
In games with healers, they’re not a crutch, they’re part of the game dynamic. If you face tank damage because “well I’ll just get heals”, you know what’s going to happen? Your healer is gonna go OOM spamming on your clueless self and you’ll lose the match. It’s that simple. Being a decent healer in competitive pvp is typically 90% about positioning, which is what the vast majority of players have trouble perfecting. You have to know where all enemy players are all the time (as well as what abilities they have available at all times) so you don’t get interrupted or otherwise controlled at critical moments – and you have to know where your teammates are in relation to you at all times so you can keep up with insta-cleanses and whatnot. The other 10% comes down to having decent teammates who know that they need to actively try and mitigate damage on themselves in any way they can so as to a) help you conserve mana, and b) avoid placing you in vulnerable positions.
Granted, none of that is very relevant to GW2 pvp in its current state, but that’s how it is at the competitive end of any MMORPG with a standard design model.
And eles are not nerfed to the ground, but the only viable build is the bunker ele.
Various players who run either s/d or d/d balanced roamers in top tier teams (i.e. teams who win paids 24/7) would disagree with you.
As mentioned, any half-decent player knows that eles are strong in multiple roles.
Personally, I still have trouble grasping why this game even went live without a ladder considering all the pre-launch hype about e-sports.
Makes zero sense to me.
It’s really situational.
Ideally you’ll probably want to focus the player with the least amount of recovery options. This might mean that you know he isn’t running a stun break, or he used his stun break on something else earlier in the fight (or earlier in another fight in another area of the map), or he just double dodged and has no vigor, or his heal is on cooldown, or whatever.
Keep track of mesmers and swap to them after decoy expires. Focus necros at initial team fights if they expose themselves cause they won’t have any life force – they’ll probably pop spectral armor if they built for it or just die if not. Force mist forms on non-bunker/non-cantrip ele’s and swap to them afterwards if they stay in the fight. Swap to warriors when they frenzy or just stay on warriors in general cause their escapes are usually subpar. Swap to thieves whenever they show or just spam AoE when you know they’re around. If your team is lite on condi removal, you can probably focus condi spammer engineers as they can be a severe threat. If you’re fighting multiple guardians and there are no better targets, identify the meditation one and focus him.
It all depends. You’ll typically be swapping back and forth a lot and sometimes focusing bunkers can also be the appropriate thing to do if you happen to catch them in a vulnerable position.
It depends on your team’s comp as well.
I dont even need Sr for that… you can just use smoke bomb and few blast finishers for 15 seconds invis if i want . Diffrence ?
They already nerfed smoke screen/cluster bomb once during the betas. They also nerfed engi mine field for the same reason.
It’s all the same and all of it needs to be toned down IMO. The maps are simply too small for it.
Samuraiken.9581So essentially, you’re complaining about a class who is defined by it’s ability to be “sneaky” (in every game out there involving the class…even FFXI had “Hide” for Thieves). You’re complaining that you can’t see someone traversing the map, and you want them to be out in the open like a normal kittening warrior (or kittened Ranger)?
Grats on completely missing the point.
I give up.
Hey I didn’t title the thread – I just generally agree that it tends to push teams into certain comps and stunts growth.
As for this -
Daays.4317Also, portal is only strong if the team you’re playing against enjoys backcapping (assuming your mesmer is playing point defense). If they forsake backcapping for a stronger team fight pressence and hold their close/mid, then having portal on your hotbar is a waste. No reason to be two places at once if the other team is only in one spot.
IMO this kind of playstyle actually benefits portals just as much, if not more. If you never pressure their home point, then they’re free to 5-man zerg you at mid or wherever you’re trying to team fight. You can try to 5v5 them, but you better win that fight or you’re probably going to end up far behind – not to mention you’ll be leaving your close point completely exposed.
Only playing for close/mid and never pressuring far is too close to putting all your eggs in one basket for me.
Your whole argument is about how strong portal is and how it is required, but then your solution is to nerf another class because of portal. The whole premise is ridiculous.
Nah. My ideal solution is a reduction in the stealth time on SR once you leave the radius and some kind of limitation on portals – not really sure what at this point. I wouldn’t mind if that utility just didn’t exist in general.
Even if portal didn’t exist, I’d still probably like to see a reduction on stealth time once out of the SR radius because SR in its current state without portal defense would be even worse to play against IMO.
@Daays -
We can theorycraft all we want really. I mean, you never know what a chill field, a static field, or an extra AoE cleanse can do to a team fight in the span of several seconds – it might give the focus target just enough time to recover. Maybe people aren’t dying instantly. Maybe they’re dying gradually. Maybe people from both teams are down and that 2 seconds cost you a revive.
There are any number of things you could do in 2-4 seconds depending on the situation, but it’s all completely beside the point.
The point is really very simple – extended stealth from SR applies pressure that requires you to play proactively and occasionally divert resources away from problem areas “just in case”. That is, unless you play portals. It further pushes the meta towards portal defense – that’s my only real point.
Daays.4317If he does refuge inside his base, then you should know the spawn timers and when you need to head back just to be safe.
Which is really one of the bigger problems IMO. If you have a portal down on home, you don’t need to be safe unless the portal expires and you have to go back to drop another one.
A mesmer would be able to head mid right off the bat and chill there for as long as necessary without any real fear of a neutralize on home. An ele has to head back home just in case every time the spawn timers line up – and that’s abusable one way or the other. That fear of what could possibly happen is enough pressure by itself to give the other team an instant advantage elsewhere – that’s why a teleporting defense is best, as you said, and it’s why the long duration stealth that SR currently gives further narrows the game to portals on home over any other class.
Also, as a competitive player I figured you’d know that 2-4 seconds can be all you need to decide a fight.
And further down the page -
Jumper.9482You’re not seeing the big picture here.
If you can pop up from mid to the enemy’s far point completely undetected at any time, that means the enemy team can’t have a bunker sitting inbetween points (ex: foefire: ele, engie on cliff).
So you either HAVE to have a mesmer on your team with portal on point, or fight mid 4v5.
I don’t want to see any one class being required for a team to compete competitively.
idk
Easiest way to counter a thief crossing the map stealthed is with a teleporting defense.
That’s like… the entire point of the thread. I’m not even sure which side you’re arguing for.
Ashanor.5319So get rid of portal.
Fine with me, though I’d still say SR duration should be reduced considering how small the maps are.
The only reason you want to say not to compare it is because you obviously don’t like WoW and don’t want the golden child compared to it.
Also what?
I like AB and WSG way more than anything GW2 has to offer. That has nothing to do with it.