Well, stop doing the SAB Reward track once you’ve gained enough Baubles and acquired the Weapon skins? If some Weapon skins come from the Reward chests, use the Baubles to purchase the others; there can’t be that many left over once one has used both methods of acquisition. (Just like Dungeon Reward tracks.)
At least, that is what I would do…maybe I’m odd. /shrug
The ratio of baubles to final chest weapon skin are out of skew. If I even get all the weapons this year from soley the final chest, I still am unlikely to have enough baubles to purchase even one skin. But if I converted all those baubles to furniture tokens I would be able to get like a million super cloud deco. It is very out of whack and is partially why I suggest changing the baubles to furniture tokens at a more reasonable ratio.
I have ~4500 baubles atm from wvw reward track that ive completed my best guess 6 times. And I think it costs maybe 8k baubles to buy a skin from the merchant. If I converted the 4500 baubles to super clouds I could buy 180 of them. But that requires some hefty special event pve and online guide tutorial. It really doesn’t even make sense to award so many baubles in the reward track that wvw becomes the most efficient way to acquire furniture tokens. Why not just switch them to furniture tokens at ~10 per track instead of the current out of whack ratio that almost necessitates the need for the pve gate?
I’m confused. Does one acquire more than one skin per final chest? If not, then every so many tracks will allow one to purchase a skin with Baubles, no?
Or is the concern really that one wishes to acquire Furniture Coins? If so, the lament should not be the amount of Baubles in the SAB Reward track, but the lack of Furniture Coins. Still, perhaps Furniture Coins are (one of) the enticements to play Tribulation Mode. Though, I have some Furniture Coins, and I’ve never even been able to pass the Toad…lol. (Thus, there must be some easy way to acquire them [I’m not a big fan of SAB].)
once you no longer need to (1) buy upgrades for your characters, (2) buy blue weapons, (3) buy the other neat goodies in moto’s first tab, and (4) have enough continue coins… and complete the achievements to unlock the ability to buy furniture coins from moto, then any and all bobbles and bobble bobbles can go towards purchasing furniture coins. i myself have already farmed nearly 3500 furniture coins this year and im not even going hard. i just dont need any of the other old things that have been around for years and every year SAB comes back anet adds less and less giving me more and more opportunity to deck out guild halls.
@ohoni: seriously, look into taco or other related overlays for sab. it will literally tell you where not to step and you wont experience the hopeless frustration you dread so much. if you arent prepared to spend an hour max making it easy and an hour or 2 actually completing the requirements for you to sink your spare change, you dont deserve to. stop whining about the game being too hard.
Yes, but if you can’t reasonably complete the achievements to unlock the furinture coins, then you cannot buy the furniture coins, regardless of how many Baubles you have, so that’s a moot point. And telling me to stop whining about the game being too hard doesn’t help anyone. I don’t tell you how to enjoy the game, you don’t tell me.
All content has an experiration date. SAB is mostly a linear platformer with very minor MMO reward structure. You can easily get all the non timegated rewards and still have tons of baubles left unspend.
It’s like saying you need something to spend your rupees on in any Zelda-game at the end of the game and running over the map killing every possible monster three times over.
SAB is just a part of GW2 though, and GW2 does not end when SAB ends. It would rather more be like having a Zelda dungeon where you could earn a ton of a certain currency but only have a need for a fraction of it before it’s time to move to the next one. That’s poor content design, they should either have had a use for most of that currency, or handed out less of it.
Wait for the next year, and if they don’t have anything added then play the new stuff (if any) and then stop playing it if it doesn’t reward you.
A lot of the baubles I had this year was stuff that I had left over from last year, hoping that they’d add something new to spend it on (I only recently ditched my leftover Festival tokens). Unfortunately, they didn’t add anything, which was a bummer, but the point of this thread is to hopefully remind them to add something more for next year.
Or of course, try to do that one tribulation mode achievement. You technically do have 11,250 lives to waste in SAB.
Again, ZERO interest in Tribulation anything. Zerio. None. Ziltch. Not my game, whatsoever. Anythind gated behind even a few minutes of Tribulation Mode stays gated forever, it may as well be in an entirely different game that I do not own.
Yeah, I’d love to have more fun items to buy with my bauble bubbles, but as it’s been stated there are already a number of available options. If you don’t want to complete tribulation mode to unlock the two extra boomboxes, and you don’t want to even attempt world 1 zone 1 tribulation to unlock the furniture coins, then the problem isn’t a lack of available stuff to buy, it’s that you aren’t interested in what’s left.
No, I just have zero interest in Tribulation as a concept. Masochism isn’t really my bag, I enjoy regular SAB, but the “hur hur, we killed for with no possible warning, you should have followed the online guides with pixel precision” content is of absolutely no interest to me. If they want to lock certain rewards behind that content, that’s fine, but you can’t argue that the solution to having too many Baubles earned in regular SAB is to have to clear Tribulation achievements. If regular SAB is handing out Baubles then they need to provide adequate rewards that come ONLY from regular SAB conditions.
Same goes for SAB rewards. You bought all the stuff you wanted. Now you’re upset that there isn’t more stuff for you to buy, even though there actually is and you just aren’t interested in attempting it. You should. The feeling of completing your first tribulation zone is exhilarating and it’s a huge reward in and of itself. The furniture coins are a bonus.
Individual tastes vary. For you, the feeling of completing a Tribulation mode achievement was exhilarating. That is not universal for all people. For people like me, it might be fun to beat a Tribulation zone, but the frustration of repeatedly failing it is so much more intense that even if I did eventually succeed it would be a hollow experience overall. I won’t tell you what content you should enjoy, please don’t try to tell me what content I should enjoy.
You’re confusing need with your want again.
No, I’m not. Again, basic game design. A reward currency that lacks useful things to spend it on switches from a positive aspect to a negative one. That is a Bad Thing.
They provided more things this year and last year that they considered engaging enough to spend reward currency on.
Where? There certainly aren’t any more on Moto. All I can find there are the same blue weapons that have been in since year one, and the SAB boombox that’s been there since last year. They added Crimson weapons, but those are bought using CA tokens, not BBs.
They aren’t going to add more items this year no matter how much you say they need to do so.
They could, but at the very least it’s something they should add to the list of things to get done for next year so they don’t forget again.
You’re confusing need with want. There doesn’t need to be any reward at all for doing a fun, festival activity.
If you’re going to be providing reward currency, then you need to provide something engaging to spend it on. that’s just basic game design. I know it sort of falls through the cracks on annualized events like this, but it’s something they should always consider each iteration. “Junk currencies” are negative fun.
Buy furniture coins. Sell on open market or use to turn your guild hall into a monument to SAB.
Furniture coins aren’t on Moto’s list. Are they available elsewhere?
There are tabs.
Yes, but none which offer furniture coins.
There is. You may not have completed the one or two achievements that unlock that.
Yes, I have not gotten to the 1-1 furniture shop, because it’s guarded by those death spikes, and I won’t. But still, we need things that can be bought using Bubble Baubles.
You mean, you want more things.
There are already uses for them. The fact that you don’t like the options doesn’t mean that they need to be expanded. Considering you’re not willing to unlock the existing option, I’m not sure why ANet should be willing to expand the offering.
If you’re talking about the coins, that involves getting past the masochist spikes. I’m sorry if I’m just not into that sort of thing. If you could just buy the furniture coins out right, then sure, that might work, but they’re locked behind Tribulation style BS so that’s not a factor in the discussion.
SAB is designed as a primarily stand-alone activity. It’s supposed to be (and is) lots of fun for a lot of people. Does it really have to be rewarding in every possible way?
Yes, because that’s how content works. You do the content, you get a reward. I’m currently sitting on about 450 Bubble Baubles and have absolutely nothing to spend them on. What’s even the point?
Buy furniture coins. Sell on open market or use to turn your guild hall into a monument to SAB.
Furniture coins aren’t on Moto’s list. Are they available elsewhere?
There are tabs.
Yes, but none which offer furniture coins.
There is. You may not have completed the one or two achievements that unlock that.
Yes, I have not gotten to the 1-1 furniture shop, because it’s guarded by those death spikes, and I won’t. But still, we need things that can be bought using Bubble Baubles.
There’s philosopher’s stones and mystic crystals. Saves players having to use spirit shards, and with how big of a deal players make about having to unlock the raid mastery, it should be a welcomed option.
Or Anet can just do what they did with fossilized bugs in DT and let you exchange them for a generic loot bag.
I already have thousands of spirit shards and can get way more philosopher’s stones and mystic cyrstals than I could ever use, there need to be actually USEFUL and INTERESTING rewards that can be bought using the Bubble Baubles. Jut generic junk, INTERESTING stuff.
Buy furniture coins. Sell on open market or use to turn your guild hall into a monument to SAB.
Furniture coins aren’t on Moto’s list. Are they available elsewhere?
There are tabs.
Yes, but none which offer furniture coins.
There is. You may not have completed the one or two achievements that unlock that.
Yes, I have not gotten to the 1-1 furniture shop, because it’s guarded by those death spikes, and I won’t. But still, we need things that can be bought using Bubble Baubles.
Buy furniture coins. Sell on open market or use to turn your guild hall into a monument to SAB.
Furniture coins aren’t on Moto’s list. Are they available elsewhere?
There are tabs.
Yes, but none which offer furniture coins.
“So it’s a few years into SAB”
It came out in 2013 but this is only the second year of its return…..
But anyway
2016:
Added Fancy Proprietors and Fancy Furniture Coins in hidden furniture shops
Added guild decorations
Added Kaiser Snake weapons
2017:
Added the Super Adventure Reward Track
Added new guild decorations
Added Crimson Assassin weapons and Tokens.You got all the achieves and got all the new decorations and weapon skins? That’s great. And there will probably be more next year.
I’m not saying they aren’t adding “stuff,” I’m saying that they aren’t adding “stuff which can be bought using Bubble Baubles.” The stuff they add doesn’t even have to be brand new to the game, it just has to be stuff which is not currently available for BBs, so there’s good things to spend BBs on when you already have all the blue weapons.
Buy furniture coins. Sell on open market or use to turn your guild hall into a monument to SAB.
Furniture coins aren’t on Moto’s list. Are they available elsewhere?
So it’s a few years into SAB, and I have a ton of Bubble Baubles, but nothing useful to spend them on. It seems like the same stuff as last year, just the boombox and the same blue weapons we’ve always had. They need to open up new options for things to spend them on each year, for players that have already picked up the existing stuff.
I’m just tired of plot-bullets. I mean, if a character gets surprise beheaded? Sure, ok, guess nothing could be done, but we’re in a world of magic, if someone can get gut-shot, survive about a half-hour while I putz around the mansion looking for kittens and letters, and then a boss fight, then they will be just fine. They’re downed, press F to bring them back up. At worst someone cast Rebound, or Virtue of Resolve, or Shadow Refuge on her and she’ll be dancing before nightfall.
You can’t have it both ways, either death is sudden and brutal, or they’re back in no time.
It would only have been disturbing if that had been a male Mesmer and the subject were Kasmeer or Anise or something. Exploitation of men is not problematic. Nor is that hypocritical. Nor does that last sentence simply not understand what “hypocritical” means. I think.
I tend to agree with the OP. I applaud the developer’s intentions with this one, but it’s a bit too much crazy. The room is too small to have so much happening, you could have a fight in ti, just one with fewer adds to deal with and fewer AoE circles, something where you can mostly stay in place or move around as you see fit, rather than constantly having to react to changing circumstances. One or the other, “both” doesn’t work.
And yes, adds are an issue. If adds keep spawning in a boss fight, I assume they are infinite, and the important thing is to kill the boss ASAP. Either these enemies should be infinite spawning, but also ultimately fairly weak (and NO snipers!), or they need to be cued better, like maybe he calls out “wave one!” “Second Wave!” etc. That gives the impression that there will be a point of no more waves.
And this is an issue I hadplaying as a Thief, but I spent about half of both Cadecus fights on the ground. I’d get rapidly downed by his Blurred Frenzy, and then couldn’t usually get back up. Occasionally Canach would try to heal me, but Anise was a jerk and Demi never helped either. Plus lots of AoE and stuns. I wish there were better options to get back up, or ideally not to get downed in the first place. Mostly I’d just end up countering his teleport, hitting him a few times, and then running away because his own counterattack was much more effective than mine.
If I’m in PvP, then my only goal is to earn rewards that they’ve chosen to lock behind PvP, so that I can get back to PvE. I don’t care about competition, I don’t care about self-improvement or challenge, I don’t particularly want any of those things, I just want to clear whatever hurdles are between me and the PvP-specific loot. If you don’t want to play with me, that’s fine, I don’t want to be there, but the simple solution is to work with ANet to remove all PvP-specific rewards from the game, so that people who don’t love PvP don’t have to be there.
I’ve been playing some Snowball Mayhem this year, and as it turns out, Heavy Gunner is my best PvP class. Can we make this a permanent sPvP spec? Maybe the next Guardian spec?
They should have just shifted it from simultaneous attack/defense where each side can ignore the other, to one round of offense and then one round of defense (but both sped up relative to the existing versions).
If your problem is reward exclusivity talk about that it doesn’t have anything to do with these very specific rewards.
I am talking about it. Note my posts.
The “Raids have exclusive rewards, so PVP can too” is an actually good argument, like it or not.
“And if your friends jumped off a bridge. . .”
Saying “but they shouldn’t have exclusive rewards either” is off topic and irrelevant, and not an argument anyway.
It’s a fair response to people who use "Raids have exclusive rewards, so PVP can too” as a reason for PvP to have exclusive rewards. The point is that neither should, so two wrongs don’t make a right. If raids have exclusive rewards, that’s not a reason for PvP to also have exclusive rewards, it’s just a reason that those rewards should not be exclusive to raids in the first place.
Elitism in open world confirmed
It is a little elitist, but more just practical. In open world, you can have maps where you need 100% of the population to be on the world boss, and yet 20-40% of them don’t even know the event is happening and are just doing their own thing. They’re entitled to do that, but it would be nice if they could do it on a different copy of the map, right? Imagine trying to run a raid where 3-4 of the other players were off reading the lore notes while the rest are doing their best to beat the boss.
Plus you have people that are theoretically trying to fight the boss, but completely shut off all communication, and just are not playing along with the rest of the group. I don’t think harsh sorting like gear checks or “LI counts” should be necessary or anything, but it would be nice if you could have at least some assurances that everyone on your map is paying attention. Being able to spawn and fill fresh maps is a good way to accomplish this, and I doubt many people would have trouble finding a map under such a system if they were genuinely interested in trying.
Of course players who don’t want to use these options can just spawn into random maps and take their chances, it just would be less likely to work out.
In summary:
In the PVP Threads: Raids get exclusive armor so PVP can get exclusive armor.
In the Raid Threads: PVP gets exclusive armor so Raids can get exclusive armor.
To be fair, those are arguments other people make. The argument I make is “it doesn’t matter if your friends jump off a bridge. . .” Basically that I don’t use either system to justify changes in the other, I just think that all systems should be the best they can be, and currently I’m a bit disappointed when they choose to lock cool skins behind dozens of hours of a specific content that most of their players would not enjoy.
If their problem is reward equality, they should discuss reward equality.
I do, in threads where reward exclusivity are raised.
Back when Raids were first being introduced, Ohoni made threads urging for (correct me if I’m incorrect) “reward equality.” Things such as raid-only Legendary armor and the raid-exclusive skins were abhorrent to his/her vision for the game. (S)He has taken roughly the same position with other specific-requirement skins such as the legendary backpieces. It’s just what (s)he believes in.
True. My stance is that exclusivity should be limited to “door prize” items, things designed to get you to “try out” a new gameplay mode from time to time, but that any player can earn within a couple hours of earnest gameplay. Anything that does take dozens of hours of hard work and/or skill should be available in multiple locations, so if one area just completely doesn’t appeal to you, you can always find it someplace else instead.
And of course it could be made easier to get from some locations than others, so if they decide that they want an armor set to be “mostly PvP,” then it can require you to do a little PvP at a minimum to get started on the path to earning it, but then there is a branching point where you could do other things instead. Like with the Ascension, make it so that at minimum you’d have to clear Amber at least once, to get the Recruits Wings, but all other components could be picked up elsewhere in the game if you really didn’t want to do any more PvP. And of course it would take longer and more work to pick up those pieces in other game modes than it would through the PvP leagues, so if you like PvP at all, PvP would be the fastest method for you to get them.
High value rewards would always take a lot of time and effort, there would just be many varieties to that effort so that people are more likely to find a way that they actually enjoy.
Quite so. Essentially, their argument boils down to ‘I should be able to get every reward in the game by pressing one in an open world champion train .’
No. That would be a straw man version of my argument.
What if someone only enjoy role playing in divinity’s reach?
If they want a legendary badge next to their name, should they get it for typing x lines of dialogue?
If they want legendary weapon, should they get it for using x emotes?
If they want to be rank 1 on the leader boards, should they get it for using fancy words?
I don’t think these are serious questions. I think they are straw men. The point is, this game has numerous supported ways to play the game, ways that offer high amounts of gold and loot to those dedicated to playing them, and if the devs have decided that it’s fair to reward players of a given type of content some very high value rewards, then there’s no reason why that content can’t reward all of the high value rewards, when you put in equivalent time and effort.
The various chat scenarios you describe are not supported gameplay, they do not offer ANY rewards. If ANet decides that they should, that’s their choice, but players should have no reasonable expectation of any reward. But if there is content where you can already earn one Legendary Weapon type, or one Legendary Armor, then sure, why would it be that this is ok, but that allowing players to earn a different item instead is considered ridiculous?
Skins are not fungible, players like the ones they like, and there can never be “equivalency.” If you offer skin A one way, and skin B another, you can never say “well this is ok, because even if you can’t get skin B playing in that mode, you can get skin A, and it’s ‘just as good.’” Relative worth is entirely subjective, what may be “equally as good” to you or to the developers may not be remotely as good to other players. Players should be able to get the version that they think is best out of the content they enjoy, not the version that the devs think is “just as good.”
Are you seriously complaining about rewards of game mode, that you cant get because you dont play that gamemode? How about raids, Alot of people dont have time or the group for them so they automatically miss the rewards, so should we take all the rewards away from hardcore raiders?
Yes.
There absolutely needs to be gamemode specific rewards, that keeps the intrest towards the mode healthy from majority of player base.
If a player is only there to chase rewards, it is toxic to the game. Half the strife from season1 came from players who absolutely did not want to be playing PvP, but felt compelled to do so chasing the Ascension, and thus had entirely different goals and motivations than those players who were actually interested in a fair and engaging PvP match-up. The game does not benefit from non-PvPers playing PvP, it only benefits from giving those who want to PvP a fair reward for their time spent doing so. Players who’d rather be doing something else should be able to do that thing without missing out on something they want.
I think an ascended armor skin fom pvp is a good thing. You donßt need it but it will show you play a good amount of pvp.
There are better ways to do that though. The titles do that. The league rank nametag flairs do that. Armor should not be used for that purpose, because armor has an intrinsic value that has nothing to do with “showing that you accomplished a thing.” People should be able to wear the armor skin because they like the armor skin. If they want to show off that they PvP a lot, then they should use other methods.
Is it really that overbearing to not have a skin ? or to not have achievement points in an area ?
It seems like the end of the world if you can’t have those….
If it’s not worth me complaining that it bothers me not to have these things, then it’s certainly not worth you complaining that I shouldn’t have these things. At the end of the day, I’m arguing for something that would make me happier that has nothing to do with you, while you would be arguing that you would be happier because I was less happy, and I don’t see how that could possibly be the meritorious position.
If I am pretty much guarenteed to clear content it is not engaging to me sorry.
I can understand that when it is your efforts that make the difference between success and failure, but personally I HATE when I try as hard as I can, do about as best as could be expected of me, and the event still fails because a few dozen other people were barely trying.
I think that with these mass player events, they need to be designed so that either A. other players can’t ruin the event by their ineptitude, or B. players can be more selective about who gets into the event, so that everyone involved is at least on the same page.
Personally, I favor option A, but with various tasks that “alpha dog” players can do that are difficult, can fail, and while failure of them won’t ruin the event, it would reduce that player’s personal reward (and slow down or set back the progress of the main event). That way, players who like a serious risk of failure would have a role within the event that should fill that role for themselves, without having a high chance that nobody gets anything.
I don’t think we need to have instances for world bosses, as map population limit serves the same purpose on a larger scale.
Well, the problem which has existed since launch is that if a world boss is challenging enough to require a well organized and skilled map to clear it, then forming that map, with not too many randos that don’t know what they’re doing and can thus fail the event for everyone, can be difficult.
If they make an effort to increase the challenge level of world bosses, then to prevent average player frustration, it would need to come with systems that would make it easier for players to fill maps with agreed upon participants, rather than whomever shows up.
Why is there no way to earn legendary in PvP?
Agreed, and that should also be a thing, but that was not the point that I was making.
Because there’d be no point in pve if you could get rewards from pvp.
There would be no point for people who prefer PvP, and that’s great, because it means people who enjoy PvP could spend more of their time playing the mode they enjoy. “The point of PvE” is that players who prefer PvE can play it (which I think you’d be surprised to learn would be “most of the people who play this game”).
If you want something, you have to earn it. That includes doing something you might not be fond of
Yes to the first bit, no to the second. You should definitely have to earn your rewards, but you should also enjoy the process, because this is a game, not a job. You should never be funneled into content that you do not enjoy for long periods of time just to get rewards that you’re after.
Why should PvE have the exclusive monopoly on acquiring legendaries whenever you want?
It shouldn’t.
Not enough full parties play to keep an entirely separate 5-man queue healthy 24/7. However, that doesn’t mean teams shouldn’t have a structured place to participate in PvP. This will be part of the the discussion around the followup poll regarding solo/duo queue.
I was thinking about this when watching some discussion of another game, but what about having a more concentrated time period for this? Have a “hot time” of sorts, a couple hours per day (or week) where this mode is available, or at the very least would offer significantly better rewards.
Just pick the time that your metrics indicate most players play anyway, and make the 5v5 queues only available during that time, concentrating players there. It sucks for players that can’t play during that time block, obviously, but if they can’t have a reasonable play period outside that block then it isn’t really hurting them much anyway.
You want the ascended armor because its a new set of skins!
Could you guys PLEASE stop putting exclusive skins behind PvP. It is really onerous for us players that would prefer to not PvP. I don’t know how difficult it will be to acquire these new skins or if I’d even really want them, but I don’t want to go through the hell of earning The Ascension again. Please just let players who don’t want to PvP, not play PvP, without missing out on cool stuff.
LONGBOW or riot! we really need a 1200 weapon and rifle meh…
I would prefer Rifle to Longbow. We already have a bow, and there need to be more Rifles in the game.
Would you be interested in an easy-mode raid that does not provide a direct path to Legendary Armor? (Easy-mode meaning a similar experience to normal-mode, but with more forgiving mechanics)
I’ve been asked, and answered this question dozens of times. The answer is “YES, I would be interested in an easy mode raid that provides NO path to Legendary armor.” I would consider that, in and of itself, to be a positive step forward, and I would play it at minimum once through.
If it also provided fair non-raid rewards, like dungeons and world bosses and other content provides, so that “farming it” is a rewarding experience, then I would likely do it repeatedly.
However, this would not stop me seeking alternative access to Envoy armor without having to do the hard mode raids, so if they insisted that they were never going to add this to the easy mode, then I would be more focused towards having them open up access elsewhere, like with Legendary Precursors, or reward tracks, or something along those lines.
I have two distinct goals here. Achieving either of them would be a step forward from having neither achieved, and I would consider that an improvement, but I would still continue to push for both to eventually be achieved, and I just find that achieving them together seems to be the simplest overall solution.
My reasoning is there if you read it; tier rewards should be exclusive to their tiers.
That’s not a reasoning, it’s an opinion, and many of us disagree.
Raiders spent a lot of time learning, practicing and organizing to be able to grind the raid. Its only fair easy mode players spend more time grinding than current raid players.
Agreed. Nobody’s claimed otherwise. The point of contention is that some people insist that no matter how much time players spend in easy mode, it should never add up to what a hard mode raider can accomplish in a couple months. I just can’t agree with that.
The important thing to keep in mind is the difference between “challenge” and “engagement.” I’d love to see Claw and Megadestroyer made more engaging, by having more tasks you can do and a wider variety of gameplay options, but I hope they don’t shift to the “you need a good map to even bother with it,” because they still haven’t yet created the tools to easily form “good maps.” It should be designed so that there are lots of different things players can do to progress it, but that the difference between a great map and a terrible map is that the terrible map takes longer to clear it (but still clears it).
Again, players were buffed.
Actually it was both. The players are much stronger today than they were when Teq was first overhauled, so obviously it would be a lot easier today than back then, but also, in addition to that, they did straight up nerf it a bit within weeks of the first overhaul. Nobody magically got stronger in that time, they just made it a bit easier.
With your second “quote” ,don’t just take part of the paragraph to try and support your argument. If you read and quote the WHOLE thing you will see that they do not agree with what you have said you would like.
No, I got that. The point I was making was related to the first paragraph of my post, in that this other poster was the one who raised the point of “easier modes should not include raid loot,” so if I were to directly respond to the content of that post, people like Hypairion would throw a fit about how I was “talking about rewards again.” As I keep telling you guys, you don’t bring it up and I won’t. but if you make the point that easier raid modes should exclude raid rewards, then I will make a case opposing that.
I for one have forgotten some what and I think its lost in this one amongst all the other stuffs that people have gone on about. Accessibility has been one topic but boy has it strayed. So yea, “refresh” us all if you will, and lets see how valid it can be.
I’ll see what I can find the time to squeeze in. There are already a lot of threads about making easy mode raids going on, and it’s getting a bit cluttered. The last time I started a new thread it just got merged into 3-4 other similar topics. It’s almost as if a lot of people care about this topic and they’re hard to stamp out.
Yes, sure…I’m so sure that if we looked at the last pages one name won’t appear before all other poster, not even once talking about ACTUAL raid accessibility (which is the topic of the thread)
Look, if you haven’t noticed, I only address points being brought up, and answer questions put to me. If you want to talk ONLY about accessibility, then ONLY ask questions and make points about accessibility, and that’s all I’ll talk about in response. If you talk about topics that are tangentially related to raids and accessibility, then I’m likely to follow, but I never lead in that direction.
I get that I’m chatty, I tend to post long walls of text because I want what I say to be clear (even though it’s often misunderstood, ignored, or forgotten anyway), and I tend to respond to several people at once, but that doesn’t mean that I’m the only one who cares, just that I talk the most.
I just want to say that if or when we get tiered raid system, their rewards shouldn’t be the same at all.
You see what I mean?
I think this response shows that he wants to press 1 to receive rewards.
Except that that has nothing to do with what I actually said, and you just enjoy making ad hominem attacks when you can’t make a valid response on the issues.
So, you’re a 5 year vet? (oops, sorry. re-read that and I see you say 10+ years…but still)Wow, that’s sooo long. Vanilla WOW came out in what, 04’ ? Not counting also the many many others as well. Hmmm….
My first was the Asheron’s Call beta, and I did play Vanilla WoW for about 6-8 months, but I’ve mostly bounced from MMO to MMO over the years because none of them really suited me. GW2 is the first I’ve stuck with for much more than a year at a time, mainly because of the many things it does differently than other MMOs.
So far.
I don’t get why people think they deserve rewards for content they can’t complete.
I don’t get why people think they do deserve rewards for content they have completed. It’s all arbitrary, nobody deserves anything. The devs just say “hey, we’ve got this reward, let’s stick it over there,” and if you do that thing, you get that reward. There’s no reason why someone who doesn’t want to do that thing can’t ask for it to also be found elsewhere.
Is this generation this casual or something that they think they deserve rewards for stuff they can’t complete? Most MMOs and other games gate rewards by difficulty and it’s nothing new.
Welcome to the Guild Wars 2 community! Guild Wars 2 is based on moving away from that sort of toxic mindset. It’s cooperative, not competitive, and it embraces the fact that this is a community of largely challenge-casual players.
I think you are mistaken. Many of people that are against raid exclusivity (myself included), aren’t a new generation, but veterans that got tired of those “Most MMO games” long ago.
True enough, I’ve been playing MMOs for over a decade and a half now.
So why are you here asking for a new mode of raiding, a gametype you actively dislike ?
I can’t speak for Astral, but the type of raiding I’m asking for is one that I would like, because it does away with the elements that I don’t like. That’s why I’m asking for it, because the version I’m asking for is the version I want to play. I would have thought that much obvious.
Wouldn’t your time be better spent asking for equivalent rewards from a new source ….Say Legendary Armor from WvW instead ?
Not just from WvW, since I don’t WvW any more than I raid, but I’ve noted that alternate open world PvE sources would work for me. But even if they did that, I’d still like to see an easier version of the raids.
uhmmm yeah i’ll just magicaly make 200 LI appear in my inventory without actually doing any raids…
You can do that, actually. There are chat codes for it.
Perhaps because they want to maintain the identity of raids being challenging content, an “easy mode” somehow compromises this.
I never really understood this line of reasoning. An easy mode in no way cheapens the challenge of the harder mode, especially if players have access to the harder one first, so they can’t use the easy mode to “scout out” hard mode options. I mean, if player A beats the hard mode, and player A beats the easy mode, that does not in any way make player A’s accomplishments less impressive. I mean, even if I were to manage to beat the existing VG by the skin of my teeth, that in no way takes away from the accomplishments of those teams that manage it with minimum size, minimum gearing, minimum time, etc., and those accomplishments aren’t even recognized by the game’s code in any way. Impressive is impressive, and someone accomplishing similar, but clearly distinct variations on the content in no way takes away from that. If anyone feels otherwise, that’s a problem they need to work out within themselves.
When I think of “Fractals”, despite it having a rather high ceiling for difficulty, Fractals is not identified as “challenging content.” While Scale 100 Nightmare Challenge Mode is, “Fractals” themselves, for good or ill, are not.
I don’t think that’s true at all. It was certainly billed as challenging at first, and the community certainly embraced it as challenging at the time. The early tiers are designed to be accessible to players with less skill, but whether successful or not, the mid to top tiers have always been intended as “challenging content” by any reasonable standard of expectation.
Why can’t you just buy raids with the gold you earn in other activities? That’s functionally the same thing as a reward track.
In theory, you would be correct on that, but they have so broken the gold economy that it’s not worth considering at this point. The fundamental flaw they made was that they allowed people to buy items off the TP, and then resell them for more gold than they paid. This causes the gold value of luxury goods to rise to well amove any reasonable amount. I’m sure that raiders love the idea of people paying them thousands of gold to get Legendary Armor, but it doesn’t work out well for anyone else.
Yeah, that wouldn’t be my game any more and I strongly believe the game would lose more ppl than win in the end.
It’s sad that you think that, but perhaps in considering that you understand how many of us feel that way about GW2 having raids that are required to unlock Legendary Armor.
The back and forth on this thread is pointless because at the end of the day everything revolves around a normative question the answer to which can’t be proven true or false. The question is this: Should there be exclusive rewards based on a combination of skill and grind or not?
The point is not for people in this thread to arrive at a consensus as to the best possible solution that we all agree with. That is unlikely to ever happen. Rather, the point of this discussion is to raise as many possible strengths and weaknesses to various proposals, figure out all the potential outcomes we can, and why each outcome would be good or bad overall, and then allow ANet to decide what they want to do about it, given that they know a lot more about the internal workings of their studio, and have more big picture data about how players engage with their game.
I also don’t buy the utilitarian argument of the greatest good for the greatest number because the greatest number can be wrong and unreasonable.
When we’re talking about personal opinion, that cannot be true. If the greatest number want something, then that’s what they want. You don’t have to give it to them, but you do need a good reason not to, and “because a smaller number would prefer they not have it” is not a good enough reason.
I find the idea that raids poisoned the game ridiculous. Most of the entire game is trivially easy, and I think it’s a good thing that the developers added challenging content to the game that not everyone has the time, skill or patience to complete.
But again, I think that’s a silly argument. If “most of the game” is trivially easy, and if plenty of people enjoy that experience, then wouldn’t the people who don’t enjoy that experience be the ones in the wrong? If you don’t enjoy “most of the game,” then maybe this game isn’t for you, and you should play a game where most of it is not trivially easy, rather than defending portions of the game that are overly difficult by the standards of the rest of the game. Uneven difficulty, especially when that uneven difficulty blocks off rewards and content from players, just divides the playerbase into haves and havenots.
99% of the game is for the casuals. Let the 1% have their raids and the exclusive raid rewards that go with it.
No.
If one thing in GW2 has shown to be 100% true is the fact of players going the way of least resistance.
True, to a point, although it’s more accurate to say that many players follow the path of least resistance, plenty others do other things instead. But yeah, if there’s a particularly easy way, people will take it, but if it turns out there is a particularly easy way, then ANet can make it less easy.
And again, I think it’s important to not try to balance the original with the alternatives, but rather to balance the alternatives with each other, and to be less than the original. like whatever “balanced” is between the original and the nearest alternative, the original should offer that much and more, so that the alternative doesn’t even come close. Players should go in understanding that the original path is definitely the most efficient, the alternatives are just there for people who really don’t want to go the original route, or who really love that alternative play mode.
Your idea sounds to me like: Logging in, activate the reward track of my favor and play stuff I like. Because in the end that is what you have to do to make it all equal without being unfair to anyone in this game.
That would be one way to go, and I think could certainly work. Of course different activities would progress the track at different rates, and if you were ion a given area then you would be advancing other goals as well. For example, let’s say that there were a “Forsaken Thicket” track. As a very high challenge content, it might progress much slower than other tracks, and the “keystone” rewards on it would be in very small quantities, so you’d need to max it out many times over to reach the maximum rewards, and in that time you could have cleared dozens and dozens of, say, dungeon tracks. Maybe hundreds. And if you were to pursue that track while playing hardcore raids, the progression you would get from that would be massive relative to some other content, so you’d be ticking it over much faster than normal, on top of getting drops directly from the raid itself. If you were pursuing this track by running content in Bitterfrost, on the other hand, it would progress that track very slowly, but you would also be accumulating Winterberries, karma, farming junk from the chests, etc., the other rewards inherent to that zone. It would basically allow you to either go all-in on the content and rewards of a single location, or “dual track” and collect a little from two different locations at once.
Exactly, and just have a realistic thought about it how to implement such a big thing. It interferes with so many other stuff in the game. At least with a little bit of profound knowledge in game design you would agree that such big change would costs thousands of hours of time consuming simulations, followed by balancing and again simulations and balancing etc. to make sure you don’t destroy some areas of the game because no one would ever visit them due to getting the shinies much easier elsewhere.
True, to a point, but again, this is a case of “don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.” I mean for all the complaining about Silver Waste farming, AB multi-farming, now Bitterfrost farming, etc., the past and current game are not perfect, they do make mistakes, it happens and that’s ok. The most important thing here is not that they get it absolutely perfect on the first try, it’s that they have contingencies in place so that if something seems fishy, they can pull a level and go “nope, no more of that” and shut down certain areas until they can fix it, or at least nerf it hard and then maybe fill it back in once they’ve figured out what’s going on there. all they need is to be nimble about it.
It’s quite possible that certain areas would end up being much more efficient than others, and some much less efficient, but that doesn’t mean that these areas are forever doomed to that fate, they can always go back in and make the necessary tweaks.
Sry Ohoni, but sometimes it would be okay if you also think about all the side effects of your so called ideas instead of saying: “But it is possible.”, and admit that some of those ideas are terrible in a realistic scenario.
I can’t say that I always realize every potential problem, but I do always consider the issue from as many angles as possible. If I suggest something, I’ve likely thought of the same concerns you’d raise about it, I’ve just decided that the good outweighs the bad. Too many times around here, any flaw, no matter how small, is pounced on as “it’s not absolutely perfect,” when that’s an impossible standard to meet, and if it was the standard actually used, then nothing would change in the game. They certainly never would have added raids.
The first step is to make sure that a 5-man fractal group can actually enter the Raid as that 5-man fractal team without changing their composition. That’s really important and it goes together with the balance. Of course this means those OP builds in Fractals that are terrible in Raids, need to be looked at and balanced accordingly.
I’m not even sure that’s likely though. I mean, individual build balance would certainly help, but Fractal teams are built around Fractals, 5-man content with certain challenges specific to those Fractal bosses, instabilities, and Agony. Raids are built around having ten men, many with more specific individual roles, but less of those individual roles than a Fractal team might have (1/10 tanks rather than 2/10 tanks, for example), and challenges specific to the raid encounters. I don’t think it would be possible for a Fractal team you just roll into being half a Raid team, not without significantly loosening the challenges the raid presents, some sort of. . . “less difficult mode” or something to that effect.
It’s something that the devs acknowledge:
No, I get what they’re saying and understand the issue, but “combine two 5-man teams” is not inherently simpler than “combine one five man team with five other people.” I’m not saying those 5-mans aren’t out there looking for another five, I just don’t see how there’s any way to make things that much easier for them.
Allowing a pre-made 5-man fractal team easier access to Raids is important in increasing accessibility. A half-filled team of random player is different to a pre-made 5-man team.
I can see how a pre-made Fractal expert 5-man team could be more useful to join your team than five randos, but how would you guarantee any level of quality? what would stop five randos from deciding that their best bet was to join up with each other and join the “5-manx2 queue” or whatever it gets called, and be paired with five players who probably have a better idea what they’re doing?
“A system that only groups you with players as good or better than you are” is the white whale the PvP team has been chasing for years now, and I can tell from experience that they aren’t remotely close.
I guess those multiple difficulty modes for Dungeons did a very good job!
There were more threads like these back in 2013 and discussion on how hard the dungeons were, yes these dungeons we can now do while blindfolded.
Yes, and this is a very good example of what we’re trying to avoid. Everyone who likes raids the way they are? You’d better get on board the easy mode bandwagon, or else there is likely to only be one mode, and that mode will be easy mode. By fully splitting them off, they can tune the one mode to the community’s satisfaction, while leaving the other mode where it is for more hardcore players to enjoy.
Getting a 5-man team is easier than a 10-man team, due to the size difference. A way for 2 5-man teams (for example two fractal teams) to more easily join up and form a raid team can help with this. Devs are working on something like this if I recall.
And if 14 raid teams can form up, you’d have a Dragon’s Stand map filled! Being able to combine two teams of five does nothing to make things easier, you’d still need ten total people. How would that be any different than two half-filled raid-teams on LFG merging?
Time commitment. Dungeons are generally really fast, and paths that took way too long were ignored. Raid wings should also be fast enough, at least when not counting multiple wipes. I hope the next Raid that will have 4 bosses won’t take hours to finish. Making Raids content that can be done in shorter bursts is essential to allow players with not-set schedules to play it.
What have I been talking about this entire time?
(edited by Ohoni.6057)
Well what about ALL the players (my wife included) who have done it the “hard way” and actually EARNED the reward? Just kitten on them and their efforts? Not cool. And that’s just what you are asking for, to kitten on all the effort countless players have put out doing the content “as intended” and earning the reward, as it should be.
No.
They still did that thing, and nobody can take that away from them, even if the “medal” for doing that thing becomes less rare. Back when they added the Wardrobe system, it meant that plenty of people could now dual-wield Legendaries without actually needing to own two of them, which in the same sense you’re talking about “devalued” the efforts of those who made two Incinerators. They did provide a title for such players though, and maybe they could do something here, offering a unique title to players who have completed certain objectives before the easier mode goes into effect.
Ultimately though, you can’t hold the future hostage to the past. You can never say “well some players did this one way, therefore we can NEVER change that system in any way that would allow others to do it easier.” Back at launch the game cost $60, and then over the next three years, it dropped to $30, and $15, and eventually went F2P, and at each stage people complained that it was “devaluing” that initial $60 purchase (or the $15 purchase from particularly entitled latecomers), but that’s how the world works, the first people to do something almost always have it the roughest, but things tend to get more accessible over time, and that’s a good thing because it allows more people to enjoy it.
If your wife would be genuinely salty that other players would have access to Legendary armor through some other methods, then that’s a pity, but it’s more than made up for my the dozens of players who would now be happy because they have Legendary armor. It’s more important to please people who can be happy within themselves, than to please people who can only be happy at the expense of others.
I’d love to see that because it definitely means no content in any game mode for at least one year.
You do understand that a game company is not like a “pen” filled shoulder to shoulder with developers, and any time they need to make something, they just open the gate and let a random 5-10 of them out and put them to work, right? They each have their own specific jobs and responsibilities, and for the most part you’d never have one doing the other’s job. This would be a specific task, evaluating content for hours played, quality of gameplay, etc. to determine relative worth, and then assigning rewards to those task. I’m not saying that this would be easy, or that it wouldn’t be time consuming, I understand fully that it would take a lot of work and a lot of manhours, but it would be work that could only be done by a handful of people within ANet, statisticians, economists, gameplay leads, people good at crunching numbers and determining outcomes, and then people good at going through the reward tables and changing the data to add new things in where needed.
What I’m basically saying is that 95%+ of the people working at ANet could not reasonably contribute to this process, so whatever it is they’re doing now, they would just keep doing that stuff. The rest of them, I have no idea what responsibilities it might pull them away from, but it would likely be “systems” stuff, back-end, engineering, stuff like that, which is important work, but not necessarily “content,” so I think it would be reasonable to assume that new LW and raids and whatever could keep coming out at the same pace. What might take a hit is more big picture stuff, like different overhauls to the economy, underlying mechanics, that sort of thing. Maybe instead of Traits 2.0 and 3.0, they could be working on this.
I make no guarantees that this would be the case, maybe the employees that would be needed are more vital to the content creation sections than I’m assuming, I’m just putting it out there that it’s possible that it would have little to no impact on those areas, and it would depend on how specifically a handful of people are currently spending their time within the byzantine clockwork of ANet.
And personally, I feel that of the possible ways those people could be spending their time improving the game, this would be a really good one, that if landed successfully would make ALL players happier than they currently are. Yeah, raiders would have to put up with outsiders getting “their” armor, but at the same time, they could spend their time raiding working towards fully unlocking Legendary Weapons, The Ascension, Ad Infinitum, or anything else that they thought looked cool, but preferred raiding to wherever that thing was placed.
You can never know until they complete the content fully. There’s zero possible way you can know, it’s about the same as a player going into a jumping puzzle, missing the first jump and calling the entire thing pointless and unfun.
That’s his choice. I can know for myself that I would never enjoy raiding in their current form. You have no grounds to disagree with me on that. It’s fair to use rewards to lead a horse to water, but they shouldn’t force them to drink.
Arenanet has everything to benefit from uninterested players to get interested in raiding once they figure out accessibility, and they are looking at Fractals for this.
You seem to be assuming that a lot of the people who don’t currently raid would really enjoy the current raids if only they could get a group together more easily. I see no evidence to support this. We know that at the very least, raids are not for everyone in their current form. Some people just will never enjoy what raids currently present, even if you personally guaranteed them a good-to-go team on demand.
At some point in the future you might change your mind…also new Elite Specs could drastically alter how Forsaken Thicket is played, but nevertheless the carrot will still be there for you to come for.
If future patches changed how Forsaken Thicket plays to the extent that I would want to play it, then the hardcore types would be hollering all over about how pathetically easy it’s become. I have no interest in seeing the existing raids nerfed into the ground, I want them to remain challenging for those that enjoy challenge. I’d just like an alternative for those who do not. Yes, I made my choice, but my entire point is that I’m not content with my choice, because none of the available options were good ones. I’d like them to put in a good option.
Nobody benefits from players playing content that they dislike. I have no idea why I even need to explain that to anyone.
The devs do, and players who like the content do as well if the ‘uninterested’ players come around to actually like the content to repeat.
No, the devs do NOT benefit from players playing content they do not like, because that accelerates player burnout, and furthermore makes players less likely to spend money. It’s a funny thing, I kind of want to get those new gem store wings, but now I have the Ascension on the characters most likely to wear those, and I had to go through so much kitten to get them that I don’t want to trade them back in. They lost themselves a sale there in the most direct fashion.
And the players don’t benefit either, because we aren’t talking about “maybes” here, we’re talking about players who are genuinely not having any fun and never will. I don’t know how any player could live with himself knowing that he was supporting players playing content they do not enjoy, all in the name of shorter queue times for himself. It’s like some sort of pyramid scheme.
Hell, even the SPvP Legendary Backpiece doesn’t make much sense either when you think about it, but since there’s a Fractal Legendary Backpiece notice how no one seems to care about it huh?
I’ve made that same point about the PvP wings, and I’m sure some people care about the Fractal backpiece, I’m not one of them, but to each his own.
My question, is why doesn’t this apply everywhere else? Why do open world PvE players need any reason to do the content other than they enjoy PvE? Or WvW players or PvP or fractals etc?
It does, ideally.
1. You want to have some reward in all modes, because the loot chase keeps people invested in the game. The loot is there so that people play GW2 rather than something else, but so long as they’re playing GW2, what mode they’re in is entirely irrelevant outside their own happiness.
2. You want to try and get the loot as close to balanced as possible, so that if they are enjoying the content they are doing, they don’t look over at some other content and say they are getting better for less work. I understand that they do not have this perfect yet, but raids aren’t perfect either, so changing raid loot distribution won’t make things less perfect than they already are. All we can hope is that they continue to nerf super-optimal loot sources and buff sub-optimal ones until they get it close enough.
3. It’s worth having some rewards that are unarguably easier to get in a specific mode, so that players who are vaguely interested in that mode will do it, but alternatives should still be available. For example, if there is Content A and Content B, each could allow you to advance towards Reward A and Reward B, but it would be easier in the mode it was assigned to. If a given player likes both equally, he would take the path of least resistance. If he likes A better than B, then he might still do B for the reward if he likes B enough. If he really hates B, then it’ll take him a bit longer, but he’s still be able to get the reward he wanted via A.
Talking about “fair” rewards from a monetary perspective, raids are one of the only parts of the game where you can spend hours playing and actually lose money.
That’s an entirely different discussion, but my basic answer would be “it probably shouldn’t, they should change it so that you don’t lose money on it.” Or alternately that the cash money payouts should offset those losses when you’re successful, like maybe you can buy good food using Magnecite or something. I don’t think a reasonable solution is to say that you’re destined to lose money by raiding, but in return you get loot you can’t get anywhere else.
It shouldn’t matter if somebody else gets legendary armor in raids because you only care about playing the content that you like and being rewarded “fairly”.
I couple posts up I discussed the fungibility of loot, or lack thereof. When it comes to skins, there is no such thing as “equivalent.” You either get the one you want, or you don’t, there is no fair substitute.
It seems a little hypocritical to put a burden on raiders that “you only really want to raid if you don’t do it for rewards” and not put that same burden on everyone else.
I don’t disagree, which is why that is a point I never claim.
To what degree? Subjectivity also plays a part here, how much easier is earning the HoT currencies to raiding? Is that even measurable?
And yet some people insist that raids are unquestionably the highest skill content in the game, and therefore unquestioningly deserving of the best rewards. It’s all subjective, but it goes both ways. If you argue that it’s impossible to weigh one type of content against raids and say that “this amount of it” is worth “that amount of raids,” then it’s also impossible to say that raid are deserving of any special treatment either.
(edited by Ohoni.6057)
They balance the reward levels, not the skins though. You are 100% welcome to demand Legendary Armor acquisition outside of Forsaken Thicket, that’s a valid perspective we see in GW2. The demand deviates from what Arenanet has done when you demand that Envoy Legendary Armor is made available elsewhere. You have to have noticed this.
I have noticed this, but what I’m asking for is change, so of course I would expect things to be different afterwards. That’s the entire point.
You misunderstood me, I was speaking from a player perspective where the player chooses if they really want the reward or they give it up at that point and come back to it later. The reward never leaves the location where it is earned.
Sure, but neither does the player change his mind later about doing that content. In most cases, if they don’t want to do it today, they aren’t going to want to do it tomorrow, or a year from now, unless the actual conditions of that content change in some significant way.
A player choosing that he’d rather give up on his goal because he’s prefer to do something else is not a happy ending.
I thought that the word ‘Players’ would have tipped you off to find a gaming example. And the example is poor one at best, because the stairs are still the path of least resistance since the time aspect is far, far shorter than the ramp.
You’re making my case for me. The “time” aspect for the hard mode raiding would always be significantly shorter for people that can raid than any alternative method would be. The balance goal would be that anyone who enjoys raiding would see raiding as just an obvious a choice to reach the goal as you see the stairs, but for people who struggle with raiding, they would have other options.
I never it was being removed, I was elaborating the point that keeping the Envoy Armor in raids serves as one of the best carrots to get even those not terribly interested in raids, to raid.
But nobody should WANT players who aren’t interested in raiding to raid. Those players don’t benefit, ANet doesn’t benefit, even you don’t really benefit from that, since they’re likely to be the more toxic people to play with, since they don’t actually want to be there. It’s in everyone’s long term interests for people who don’t want to raid to never raid.
But of course you may want to get them to try raiding, and that’s fine, give them a carrot that they can reasonably achieve at any skill level within a relatively short amount of time. Get through to show up, get them to play the mode, and who knows, maybe they will like it, in which case continuing to raid will be the shortest path to their long term goal. But if they don’t enjoy it, then there’s absolutely no reason why they should be punished for not sticking around.
The “carrot” analogy is actually a really good one, because you want to dangle that carrot relatively close to the mule, just out of reach, and eventually you’ll need to let him have the carrot or he’ll starve. If you dangle the carrot 50ft in front of the mule, where he sees no reasonable expectation of getting it, then you can’t expect that to have a positive result. I mean look at me, I clearly am interested in the Envoy armor, and I’ve tried raiding for it, but clearly it’s not a strong enough carrot to get me to keep doing it, because from my perspective it’s being dangled so far out from me that there’s just no point.
Carrots, or incentives in this matter, are put into place to get players who are uninterested or even dislike the content to play the content.
Nobody benefits from players playing content that they dislike. I have no idea why I even need to explain that to anyone.
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