Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
Look people are already kittening about mesmer and ele. An assortment of reasons are tossed out why its not op and more tossed out why it is. As it is right now no one really knows how OP or not Chronomancer will be. What they do know is that among the classes to get their elite spec one of the strongest has a good one while the others seem meh.
We all know what easy wins look like. So all the “cope”, “l2p”, “well xyz didn’t use it”, and “this is just about 1v1” doesn’t stop anybody from saying, “kitten this I just rather not play”. PvP’s problem since day one has been this bs where instead of demanding balance for all classes people get kittened off and just say nerf this until their class of choice is in the spotlight and then they either say nothing or profess, “L2P!”, “Cope”, etc.
If it isn’t fun to fight then why bother? All the insults in the world won’t stop the bleeding. Until Anet gets their kitten together expect the same pattern. I apologize for the harsh language but it has been 3 years already.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
I got killed by a reaper at full health from range in about 3 seconds multiple times. Don’t know how they did it. Other reapers have been eh so so that I played. However, this one must have had something going.
Did you read the combat log?
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
I am confused by this post.
Why?
The NPC archers do not do anything so they should be removed from maps.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
The Dreamer + Concussion Shot maybe?
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
Burning applications need to be toned down.
Guardians, Eles, Engineers applying 9+ stacks of burning in mere short seconds for 3444+ a tick is kind of over the top.
At least when dealing with engineer if you got all of that you didn’t dodge and on top of that they just blew through 30-40 seconds worth a cds. With one clear you negate all that damage. I think most players are getting better at reading the burn burn more burn builds.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
Your problem, as I see it, is caring what some random player on the losing team had to say.
Mhmm
I do not even bother with the gg now. Not being rude but someone is always salty about the match win, or lose.
The thing about PvP meta xyz players who are top tier state that this build is the “best” build. So lots of people run it blindly. Other players who either run custom builds or are not that great at pvp sometimes point to this and try and create an insult. Sometimes not even knowing if the other person is running that “best” build (they just see the class).
Meta especially in PvP is neither here nor there. The build you run if you run it well and best the current meta with it then you are fine. Stop worrying about sore losers and just play.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
Imho there is a good deal of whining going on (not just here).
In PvE we are in the same spot we have been in a long time. Not “meta” but not bad. We aren’t treated like necromancer or ranger. We are in the middle. So if you play engineer no one will bother you. If you have xyz account points even less likely.
WvW. Simply put we are likely better roamers now then we ever were before but that is only if you roam to flip camps. dual, and get away. When it comes to roaming I still do it in mostly celestial and I have no issues with zerkers or anything like that.
PvP. YMMV. If you get beat blame yourself first. Look at your skills vs the other guys. If you are losing a lot it could be you could be your class, build, the other guys class build etc. If you want to face roll to just face roll got to the pvp forums and see where the complaints are targeted and play that class. Even in that case YMMV! You might get beat all the same.
One last thing some personal observations about engineer. This to me seems to be a love or hate class. Right now I will get bored on most other classes. Engineer is the only one that actually interest me and it has been that way for a while. The game play is just so different. The other thing is our builds can vary widely. There is not best build in the world for this class. Half the “best” builds come from the best player, with the best timing, who have spent the better part of 3 years on one class. You most likely will not pull off half the things they do.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
Going to clear up a few thing because post like this are as bad as OP.
didnt get what you want to clear here
warrior – every meta build take berserker stance and rampage which is used in melee so if every thing else is correct what you want to clear up .oh it can be morph like every other class and build
i just mention warrior has good sustain while in melee. sometime better than mesmer cause of high armor and hp. thus warriornecro – the rest is true so…. again what you wanna clear here?
guard – most take medi or bunker so again true hard to kill while can dish out huge dmg burst. guard can use focus block or aegis and attack
mesmer – again the problem is pu . yes its being used now in pvp but not for its full duration rather it aegis and other boons it gives .so even if anet nerf the duration (which imo needed) ppl will still use it
engi – yes he cant attack while using block or ex-s but he got stealth also, slik shoes ,kd ,cc etc. probably the best heal in the game while the ability to disengage and reengage at will with good amount of cc …
so all in all you agree. every class has its ability to survive better and do dmg probably while being contesting while mesmer (power) cant . and your only problem is pu duration and moa ….
for me your answer is as bad as any other qq here
The problem is that when someone criticizes your class the immediate option is to point out what other classes have and not put it into perspective. This is a silly trend. It does not state what class x can do to beat the class being criticized and just like your engineer list above states every skill that the class has but not a logical build that uses all of them. Why? Because they are not used simultaneously.
It is a comment with little to no perspective. “You have this I have this so everything is balanced!”, is how it ends up sounding. Yes engineer has lots of skills that will let it survive against current mesmer. How does it win? How does any class actually win/compete consistently? No clue right? However, a handful of builds can (celestial necro, DD ele,) the others can not consistently. It really is that simple.
One last thing as a dedicated engineer. We CAN NOT disengage and engage at will like a mesmer or thief. Our attempt at that actually requires some planning. We do not have the level of movement skills to make it feasible and our stealth (at a mere 6 seconds with 32 1/2 second cd) being that short we have to plan. Even to extend it to 12 seconds requires actually skilled play.
As for warrior and meta. They have no build options right now. It is Rampage and hope you have players who do not know how to kite your invuls and burn you down once they are over.
You may not like what I say but diverting attention with what we can call a tried a true method is pointless too. If things go like they have for each class that has sat in this spot over the past nearly 3 years mesmers get nerfed back to perceived uselessness. For how long? Until “OP!” again. The best option would be to not have this happen at all. You have long time players who have played this class even when it was considered sub par. Stop deflecting accept your’e viewed as OP and try and get Anet to not do the same old thing.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
Although now if you did that it would probably be more efficient to take elixir gun (since it has 3 skills that proc condi-removal and HGH).
Just a quick correction. None of the skills attached to elixir gun will give you the condi cleanse attached to Alchemical Tinctures. This is not a bug since it requires throwing or consuming an elixir.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
Please stop making post like this. Big broad, “Let me name EVERYTHING the other class has!”, post serve no real use.
You are talking about PvE and not worried about meta. So the answer is silly level simple. PLAY WHATEVER YOU LIKE MORE!
I could tell you all the benefits of ele but if you are not running a zerker, runes of strength, ice bow, and staff build you are not optimizing so it really doesn’t matter. You may think this a bit rude but it is true. You are doing it for fun not speed so no matter how you look at it you prioritized fun over efficiency (not an issue since you play with friends).
For the record I like engineer much more. I play power nades with zerk and scholar gear in PvE. For ele zerk with runs of strength and staff. I find running ele rotations boring, Which means imho ele is missing something for me.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
Going to clear up a few thing because post like this are as bad as OP.
lets talk about warrior – 10 sec immune to dmg or condition, stability, block, huge dmg burst, cc at will , rampager…., hight hp and armor
Damage? Yes in most cases. Condi only if berserker stance is taken (usually it is not). Rampage last 15 seconds (recently nerfed) it can be morphed as a counter. Rampage has cc on AA but you need to be very close. The throw is well telegraphed as is the stomp. The rest is mostly true but remember rampage is on a long CD and got nerfed already.
lets talk about necro – 2 hp bar, op dmg in lich or ds, op aoe dmg on point, good condi cleanse and transfer, good cc with fear chain,
OP damage? That is up for debate at best. Necro lich has the same counter being morphed. The rest is true.
lets talk about guard – block, block, block, aegis, aegis, cleanse condition, invulnerable good armor
True but, in most builds this would be bunker. Beside burning builds only medi might do this and countering that is more about forcing the burst to miss. It is additionally well telegraphed but true none the less.
lets talk about mesmer – 1 blink – guard can catch you or thief, stealth like thief, portal op here, good conditions cleanse over dmg with 4 shatter you wont do much dmg. 1 block with scpeter (or oh sword) evade only projectile with dodge for 1.5 sec,
This is where it get tricky. In terms of stealth Mesmer has more that is uncounterable without a revealing skill (no looking for red rings or refuge). So no guard or thief should ever actually catch you. As for scepter it is true the shatter won’t hurt that much however, the burst shatter build will.
distortion for emergency like shield of engi, block or guard etc..
No this is completely wrong. Engineer and guard can not mount an offense while using those skills (including elixir s). Even while distorted and mesmer can continue to mount an offense and has evade frames on sword which still allows for offense. This is a major difference. Nothing new but still incorrect.
the only op for mesmer are the clones if you dont know to target the real ones and some pu build but hardly in tpvp
In terms of OP I think the damage is a little high but it is a little high across the board. CS makes lading burst especially while coming out of stealth to easy. Given the damage increase and stealth it is much like the old mug thief. PU gives a lot of stealth(it really isn’t more complex than that).If you saw those nerfed you would likely see many of the complaints go away (who knows where that will leave mesmer though?).
People will complain but realize if there is a fotm then lots of people are running the same build that is hard to deal with. It becomes a pain for the community. Lets be clear though mesmer is just sitting in the seat many builds have in the past. Eventually it will be nerfed or other classes will be brought up (power creep).
While there are 2-3 builds that deal with mesmer’s fotm build well remember that is very limiting for a diverse community. You end up with a situation where you have to use a build to counter one class (and that is only if your class even has one). this knocks some classes not only out of the meta but out of use.
Do not blame the people that complain. You can blame Anet (for bad balance), fotm followers (who only care about winning and nothing more), and not calling it as it is by some long time dedicated players of a specific class.
Low risk high reward is just bad over all in pvp.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
Hmm. The only reason I would put elixir X over rampage is essentially I could knock you out of rampage with moa morph than 50% of the time rampage all over you. When I works it is a good counter when you have tornado you break even.
Honestly for me elixir X is for the moa morph. It counters quite a a few things but, isn’t strong enough or long enough to moa and then 2 shot. You actually have to be on the look out for things worth countering.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
Power/Crit/Ferocity in PvE, Power, Condi, or hybrid in pvp and wvw. I have no ascended armor just trinkets and weapons and 4 armor sets (perplexity, strength, traveler, and scholar). Imho engineer is perfectly fine using pure power (rifle, nades, mortar, bombs all synergize well). One melee jumpshot with the right traits will hit very big.
I still run mostly celestial in WvW and PvP. With the proper might stacking build it is still pretty strong. Had DS ele run up to me in WvW and try and truly me because he must have seen condi + food. 2 whacks of my tool kit and he was in water healing.
Bunker down doesn’t require anything but decent crit to be good. It is both a decent damage and healing trait.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
We are more then not meta now, we are suck. Before the patch I usually was in top 3 in PvP no matter – turret, celectial or condition build I played and I used to feel myself good in WWW no matter who fighted against me – I just knew that I had a chance vs another classes. Now if I see ele or mesm I prefer not to fight, because Arena forget about balance.
Sorry for my English and emotions ^)How do you know you’re not in the top 3? By the way, I don’t think I’ve EVER seen you in the top of the Leaderboards, but it could be on another account or my memory might be bad?
Anyway, we’re not meta anymore, so what? Some of our builds are still decently effective, and playing engineer feels less like shikittenmi: prior to the patch, I could 1v2 thieves or guardian, but the most noobish necro could kill me. The added condi clear on the Alchemy traitline really helps our survivability. The new HGH is glorious. Experiment with new stuff. There’s no point crying over the lost of our celestial engineer. Personally, I’m glad I get to play something a bit different.
I think he might mean the in match boards.
I think we are not exactly in the worst spot. I am still doing with a celestial alchemy build. I think our diversity in builds is down but everyone is pretty much in the same spot with the new changes. Mesmer and Ele can not be the stick we measure our effectiveness by. They are just too strong in the current meta.
the other thing i noticed is that players are much more about trends than anything else. Almost every engi I see now is rifle. I switched to PP yesterday in WvW for a difference and was roaming just fine. I think there are some builds out there no one is exploring or experimenting with simply because players have gotten used to going to forums or meta battle, getting a build, and running with it.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
I think for dedicated roamers the process is a bit different. Usually I take a camp just to entice the enemy. Same reason I travel common roamer routes. We look for fights but that isn’t all their is to it.
On bigger servers finding a zerg to run with is as easy as someone tossing up their commander tag or even just seeing a group of people. Part of the fun of WvW is that many things that are pointless in conquest still help here.
If you can’t get into it try PvP.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
Oh I made you angry ? Poor little tiny thing. Btw, you should not make joke if you don’t want that people laught about you.
lol, Definitly.
No, not really. I do not devote energy to that. It is just a a waste imho. I get the, “let me devolve this into name calling!”, thing and the, “I really need to win this argument with a random strangers on the internet!”, logic but I am a grown man and do not have time for that kitten. If you didn’t like what I said, fine. Who cares? You can “lol”, make jokes, and toss insults like, “Poor little tiny thing” (….really). If that makes you feel good then do you. As far as I am concerned if its not about the topic then there isn’t anything to discuss. You can get a last word in I know that is important for many people like you but I won’t bother reading.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
Who knows. I mean literally. Mesmer maybe be imbalanced but so is burning, DD ele sustain, and numerous bugs left and right. Each meta is terrible for players who want to win or lose based on skill.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
Speaking strictly yeah the combination of a range stun on short cd (not the daze the stun), being able to land burst due to that from stealth with little chance of failure plus consistent access to stealth and strong range combat and control effect pretty much makes mesmer OP. How OP? Pretty op but not enough for an instant nerf or anything like that (not strong in WvW large scale skirmish, strong in Spvp but can’t bunker well).
Where as before mesmer required skilled play right now like all classes that get a fotm build people run cheese builds and feel like they are good . When the game get rebalanced they move onto the next thing. Not really defensible it just the way balance goes.
Frustration isn’t losing but feeling like you had no chance of winning in the first place. Players have a high opinion of their own skills and will often blame any loss on the other player being op. However, some builds are OP and due to the burst focus mesmer is probably the single most perfect example of OP. It has nothing to do with,“OMG I lost that is so OP!”. It has to do with a unique combination of survivability, being able to land burst easily, and being very hard to counter (original back stab thief, 100nades, 100blades, etc).
That being said mesmer needed a buff before this. Now it’s op. This is a trend we have seen so much that I never understand community outrage. We go through it very often and the pattern remains the same. Lots of people flock to what wins. The sad part is it speaks more about people than lots of things. They count the win and not how they got it.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
If we are going to be fair here how much access to burning do we really have? Not much. I mean you miss your next attack and its like it didn’t even count. Not saying burning overall isn’t a major issue but we really aren’t part of the problem. We can legitimately only use it as a big burst with skilled play on a long cd (not the 2 stacks every 10 second trait).
BTW op not being rude but if you feel it is op do not use it. It is fine to skip skills if you feel it ruins the fairness off a match. It is actually kind of …noble I guess.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
Not many blame the long time player of any class for being op. It is the bandwagon that is the issue. Dedicated players in the best and worst meta for their class tend to stick to it. They tend to feel good about wins when the meta is not in their favor and not as good when the meta is. Many players play what works and that is all there is to it. DD ele, warrior, engineer, necro, etc have all sat in the same seat waiting for nerf building up community aggression. At the same time when they need a buff the community is luke warm about it over all, “It’s in a good spot”, is one of the nastiest write offs you see. However if that buff comes through and it’s a bit strong…..you get the pattern
TLDR
The community only cares when a build is op and being exploited/used. The community doesn’t care when things need a buff if it isn’t their class.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
Seriously?
In the new patch our healing power got reduced from 739 to 560 despite the increase in Celestial stats. We also lost about 1,100 HP. We lost the overlap of toughness and some Soothing Mist uptime through lingering attunement. Our boon duration got decreased by 20%. The meta (Fire) line means that we lose out on a lot of protection uptime from the Adept Earth line and we are STILL the only class without a useful combat elite.
Elementalist has no other strong builds. Fresh Air is simply outclassed in terms of surviability, mobility and damage by Thief/Mesmer. A full support/bunker Staff is outclassed by Bunker Guardian. Our ONLY viable role is as a bruiser/fighter. But no, lets cry and nerf DD Ele because cleansing our conditions is too hard apparently.
If a class is too strong no matter how limited your remaining options are the community will speak up. I am not saying ele nerds a nerf into the ground. I am not saying it’s the most op build we have ever seen. What I am saying is no one can or will pity you while you stand on top. Furthermore almost every other class is having the same issues now with build diversity down. The difference between them and ele? Who is winning fights consistently.
We all know what people need to do play DD ele and see if you can get the same results and if you are DD ele, Mesmer, etc, play another class and see if you win consistently. Balance will not come over night but the best way to counter the fotm build is to play it and see what actually counters it. For defenders see it from the other players perspective so play the other class.
Nonetheless nothing will change til Anet says so and that could take months. If you do not like the current situation be vocal or better yet quit for a while. This is not some veiled insult not logging in or spending money on this game has an effect.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
I am 5 days late but here’s your +1. Wish it could be +10.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
To me my PvE is really to fund my WvW. I need gold. I get it better in PvE and the spend it for WvW. Incidentally I went into WvW today and BG was empty. No enemies no allies……just a bunch of empty golems.
Same here. PvE is the bankroll for WvW.
Started on PvP now cos WvW so mismatched ;-(
No bs spent the last week in PvP got to rank 40……yay?
Spent the rest of my time scrapping money together for strength runes for WvW because I thought a celestial build with them might be fun. PvE bankrolling continues.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
Read the post in the engineer forums about weapon swapping. Our weapons aren’t really range dependent, run almost entirely separate builds, and aren’t as important overall as eles (we use kits). So, no. In fact since many engineers use weapon swap as drop bundle it could just impede running around.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
Are you joking? Not to be rude but I have killed rangers with reflect because of that. It is easy to counter but easy to get out played with. Isn’t that pretty balanced.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
Don’t tell me that bro.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
Some people seems to not understand what does versatility means. If you need to rebuild between roles this is not versatility, if you are crap in every roles this is not versatility, if you just can do the unique same thing in many different ways this is still not versatility.
“If you think engineer is “crap” then you aren’t playing it right”
lol
“What we lost in versatility was mostly turrets and some CD reduction. Basically a bit of DPS.”
lol
“lol” (why do people do this like it proves a point or means anything?) is not a response.
Versatility is simply being able to do many things at once. Most engineers do this by default. We have the capability to remove conditions, rez and stomp without interruption, stealth the party, and pass around healing, we can even give boons to a limited extent. Can other classes perform some of these roles more competently? Of course because that is all they can do. It really isn’t that complex. You can add to support but you may not be the guardian at the same time your doing things (especially in pvp) that the guardian can’t.
This is GW2 you have 2 roles in PvE DPS and DPS who use support skills. That is it. If you have extremely limited support (like ranger for example) you are straight DPS if you have some support skills (like ourselves Warriors Guardians etc.) you are DPS with support skills. Players tend to value guardians more because they make runs visibly easier. We however, STILL add to support when played well and do the same.
When I said, “If you think engineer is “crap” then you aren’t playing it right”, i meant it literally. We have access to more tools than another other class. If you can’t see builds in this environment that work for you than you lack imagination and shouldn’t be playing engineer in the first place.
If you are crap in every role than that is more likely a you problem than a class problem.
TLDR
You can “lol” all day long and act like you are making a point but, you are really just having a pity party while most of us are adapting. Get it together you are an engineer, or are you?
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
I am and just about half (more or less) the engineers I see in wvw and pvp. It is just real solid right now but not the only build you can run effectively.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
can say the same about elixir x and going hampage…
Some of us were using this back in the day to fight warriors anyway.
@OP if you do not like it do not use it. Outside of dungeons it is far from a requirement. Get your juggernaut on and FT just accept the loss in DPS and increased fun for you.
FT auto attack can act like a torch in dark places.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
Doesn’t your character level determine the level of rewards you get in sPvP? Higher level = higher quality loot boxes ranging from basic to exotic. In terms of combat, sPvP relies on skill and not gear/level which is really nice for balancing imo.
My level 55 necro got an exotic level 80 weapon the other day from PvP rewards (in an exotic quality champ box). I’m not sure if it’s dependent on having an 80 on your account, or the same for anyone.
Was it a dungeon track weapon case? I think those are level locked at 80. Btw op you will hit 80 in PvP anyways with reward track tomes of knowledge and login ones. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tome_of_Knowledge
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
I will tell a story. I joined a run for CoF path 2 the description read, “P2 Zerk speed clear 4k+”. I knew exactly that it meant I was on my pure zerk guard so why not. I join the party there are 3 member there 1k ap each or less. the guy who wrote the description goes off on a tirade. So I kicked him without words or rude comments. Not because he was wrong (he was not). It just so happened they might have been new enough not to know the terms (600-1.2k ap). I knew after that point I would be teaching the run. We failed bombs and the last burn took forever but here’s the thing. It was the middle of the night I kicked the other guy to save him the time of ranting so he could start another party quickly. I took the newbies (possibly a troll or 2) so they could learn the run without getting berated. Some times even after playing this long you have to kitten the situation. I had an opportunity to make 4 more players aware of the runs mechanics possibly helping out the next guy they group with.
Zerk speed clears are fine. all welcome runs are fine too. Don’t be the jerk who joins just to bother people. Most speed runs are quiet and require little communications. We all know the run. I did AC path 1 a few weeks back a regular “80 exp” party on my engi. We got to kholer stacked and nearly wiped but we downed him in seconds. One person asked if everyone was zerker and well all said, “yes” and laughed. No one came with elitist attitudes but, we speed cleared it none the less.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
There’s a few good rangers, i like to think i’m one of them, but I really want to be of more use in dungeons and stuff. warrior and gaurdian bore me, hitting things with a big stick gets tiring after a while. Engi rotation is insane, i may need a new mouse before I tackle that one full time. thief and ele are super squishy but then you’re choosing between AOE type damage or single target damage for the most part. mesmer has decent dps and utility but i’m expecting a hard nerf on them, the damage is ridiculous.
Naw there are great rangers out there. its just ranger lacks a lot of the utility other classes are just given even in pure dps specs. It is kind of bs but Anet has left it that way a long time.
I agree with your break down. With he exception of necromancer I have geared each class for dungeons and pretty much that was my experience as well.
I think rangers will be inline for a buff but I have no clue when it will come or how extensive it will be.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
Complex and diverse builds? I would say most complex rotations. Engies are jacks of all trades, but master of none, and still it usually require heavy trait/utility switching (to fill specific niche) and by this your damage will go way down.
Yes other classes also depend heavily on their none class mechanic. But only engineer is doing it to deal respectable – to high dmg (depending on number kits equipped). There is no resonable build that don’t runs any kit.
Sometimes I think that 10s global CD on every kit would be healthy. It could possibly in PvE make stuff viable other than 3 utility – kits only. Of course as long as they make using main weapons (for more than 2 seconds) viable.
You are right most engis rely on kits. It can’t be helped all classes have this same issue. Some utility skills just shine more than others (look at cantrips for ele).
The class was built around kits. Why is that an issue. So many classes have traits and utility lines that are as useless as out Turrets. I think Anet should fix this but why punish the most inventive game play for it? Stop being so salty. So what if kits are top tier. I and many others came for the kits.
I used to main ele nearly 3 years ago and i would literally fall asleep at the keyboard because the rotations were that boring. If they did that to engi what would we play?
10 second cd lol. Please do not give them terrible idea. You realize that some of us keep track of cds for 4 kits simultaneously. 4 KITS! it is the hardest and most challenging gameplay there is. Why would anyone want to rune that? So what if I use rifle for a mere 3 seconds I am still keeping track of my jumpshot and blunderbuss in the back of my head because it is still important to use them. I get the “stand alone” crowd but not everyone one likes sitting there watching cds cool down auto attacking thinking, “kitten I am so good at this game”.
BTW having to sacrifice one trait in order to get another to be better at say support with a cost to your dps is called a trade off. And trade offs are a great thing. More classes should be subjected to them.
Every other class plays the same this is the only one that plays differently why mess that up?
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
First off you should probably have this in the engineer sub section as that community is small but opinionated so, you will get some straight answers by long time players.
This has been brought up repeatedly in the last nearly 3 years. AA on nades has been a controversial (sort of) topic. I doubt the skill will change much after this long. Most players have accepted it. Many players with gaming mice just put AA on a mouse key to make things simple.
Mortar may replace nades as a long range kit but nades were never that effective long range any way. You see the nades have spread so the projectiles are less accurate the farther you are from the target. Nades have been mostly a mid range kit in practical use for a long time. So, it really wasn’t replaced because nades still have their use.
As far as unique goes you are right they are roughly the same skills with a caveat or two. First, that nades have bleed on 2 but mortar has a water field on 5. Second, nades no long have fields and those went to mortar kit. For what nades are as a DPS kit (not utility) this is actual a bonus for dungeons and general PvE. Not having fields allows for better might stacking, healing, etc. without letting your DPS kit (nades in this case) get in the way.
Nades really do not need diversity. since it is out straight DPS kit. We have so much utility already that the DPS kit really shouldn’t have much beside DPS on it. We use to to stack vulnerability primarily.
The main thing that messes with not having ground targeting is projectile speed. Even with the velocity trait if you do not have a keen skill for leading in PvP (PvE in some cases too) you will never hit with the kit. While it may be annoying you get one of the best AoE AA in the game for it. If you go under water and use nades’ AA where it is a true auto attack see how many of your nades actually hit. Unless they brought up the speed significantly (which they won’t nades would be undodgeable) an AA that actually auto attack would be a nerf to Engi overall.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
Looks like we are headed for a shortage. If that happens player might flood back into dry top to get quartz to sell or for personal use or both. If I had one small suggestion as not to kill our wallets. If Anet would allow the nodes in Dry Top to be harvested 3 times a day per account it could help tremendously.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
At the begining, engineers could do very cool stuff everywhere. Then, engineers had only few uses, at some places. Now we have no use anywhere.
We can abuse our build to do few things, but we definitly have no speciality, neither any versatility. This is how we became the most crap class of the whole game with no identity at all, and the main problem come from this.We are not really verstatiles, we can but then we are weak in every roles, unlike elems who can be good in everthing. We have no def, we can’t endure damages like necro/war, we can’t avoid/block them like ranger/thief/guard. We have many choice for damages, but then this is all we can do, single target damages, aoe damages, conditions or directs damages, debuff effects (blind, root, snare, freeze, bump, …), very scattered with no real logic, just a lot of switch and CD abuse.
If you think engineer is “crap” then you aren’t playing it right. What we lost in versatility was mostly turrets and some CD reduction. Basically a bit of DPS. I see Engis pulling off cool things every day.
We are likely the most identifiable class in the game. We are the jack of all trades class and have been for a long time. While the scenario and strength of the class may change the role has not. We do a bit of everything. Literally we are a bag of different tools.
Sd is burst, you can also do it condi. We can bunker ‘ok’. We have one of the best blocks in the game. We have access to invul and stealth (something we did not have consistently in the good ole days).
Yes we have lots of different types of damage, cc, defense, healing (though they nerfed bombs and that would be nice to have back), and what you call, “very scattered with no real logic, just a lot of switch and CD abuse.” has spawned the most complex and diverse builds this game has period. We took a bunch of different skills and made logical builds with them. While most classes have cut a dry this is your rotation we (for the most part) still have to make build that work based on an a assortment of tools. What is our reward for this. Most versatility than an ele. Ele while being the jack of all trades “king” with DD is range locked. In reality PvE is usually Air→ Earth → Fire and more fire unless ice bow is up or some one is getting killed then water and back fire.
I can understand the anger but there is a difference between that and pure nonsense. Stop pointing the finger at other classes and get better at this one or just learn to enjoy it.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
That’s only true if they lack the ability to adapt and play the game as a whole. It’s simply a fact that your potential goes down as you veer off from the Meta, though there are some situations where the meta changes but isn’t listed as explicitly.
But, of course, this is a game and play however you want, just accept the tradeoffs you make and I think it’s helpful to know so you can adapt better. Personally I"m a fan of Hammer builds, I just like hammers, but I’ll swap to GS when I know I need that binding blades. I’ll put a focus on with my mace when I know the blocks will be helpful. Adapting is part of the game, and so is doing silly stuff just for laughs.
You are right and wrong. If we all did that half the classes would not be played at all. Max DPS, support, best rotations, and synergy would be the only way to play. The problem is the goal of a game is escapism and enjoyment. If peer pressure forced you to run the cookie cutter build despite the fact you hate it why would you play?
I have seen post for full zerker parties for years now. I rarely ever join despite in PvE I run full zerker all the time. Half the time (if I have the weapons I want) I will run a dps meta build.
I do not to be that guy but at this point PvE is so easy. “Just have a little fun.”, is what I keep thinking. I may be the only one but I really do not like the idea of players being miserable behind the keyboard (including the speed runners feeling the run is slow).
I think as far as your first point about veering off meta you are probably right. Most players do not create or test builds anymore they see what is top, copy it, and generally seem enjoy that. In many cases the builds have easy rotation that are mostly wash, rinse, repeat. In terms of personal potential as a gamer it is likely a thief or engineer if they choose to (this is more the exception than the rule) is going to be working harder to push the maximum potential out of a given build (despite it might not be quite as efficient as say a guard or warrior).
For the record I likely will not go mace for my guard as I do not feel like crafting another ascended weapon. I will try and just push out as much as I can out of my SW and GS build.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
From my experience Engi > Ranger > Teef. But met good ranger is even more rare than good engi
Good Rangers and Engis are rarely found
Naw it’s more like not a lot of people main them.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
Not joking at all. Pop elixir X, hope you get rampage, and its probably game over for the mesmer.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
It really isn’t necessary.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
Not in the worst spot not in the best. I think diversity is down but I am fine with where builds are ending up. Imho the TK + Alch has less to do with our diversity and more to do with how everyone is forced to burst or bust to a degree.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
I didn’t say thieves can’t disengage but if you spent entire match “disengaging” you are not gonna have any points.
“Settling for mediocrity while complaining the heads are doing it wrong is the literal definition of a half hearted effort.” <<elaborate this please.
In perfect world yes, pvp and pve should be separate. In reality it will never happen. The joke is blizz and some other companies threw exactly same, word per word excuse why they didn’t separate pve and pvp. They would have to hire mode devs for it and it will never happen.
High risk doesn’t mean you have to run with 0 defense.
If you are losing and can’t turn it around the smart move is to disengage if support is not incoming. You just become a body to put down and by disengaging you can add another body to another point to help out. If you look at points alone you are doing it wrong like seriously doing it wrong. Some times you have to hold points and defend and score less points. If you want to do what’s best for the team you are not checking your personal points you are looking at the map seeing where you are needed. That’s true across every class.
Saying that having one build working to its full capability and being happy with that is the opposite of trying to get change done. It is the equivalent of saying, “You shouldn’t be doing this to us but if you just leave us this one thing we won’t complain that much.” If you want change fight for it.
Many of us came from GW1 where it was separate. While this is bigger game no triple A company can say that and we believe them. It might be more work but a better product has better retention. If we go on pop alone PvE should actually set balance but from day one the smallest community (sPvP) has set the tone. When WvW was packed to the gills and PvE which is the highest pop PvP is still the standard for balance. And lets be real here reward tracks were to get bodies from PvE into PvP.
You said all classes should share the same risk reward. If that were so every class should have the capability to tank, equal mobility, the same burst, and the same capability to run. Thief can’t tank (PD can to a degree) but it can disengage at will and have the mobility to keep running. Warrior can run but can’t disengage at will. Mesmer can disengage but doesn’t have the mobility to out run most classes. Saying that risk and reward should be balanced cross class would really mean making big moves like removing stealth or adding it to each class with decent access because only thief and mesmer have it strong enough to pull off disengages consistently. It just won’t make any sense. Might as well have everyone play the same class.
Your post doesn’t make sense. What are you trying to prove here?==
If you have something worthwhile to say then say it. If something as simple as logic goes over your head why admit it? I was having a discussion and it wasn’t with you. Does that clarify thing?
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
I didn’t say thieves can’t disengage but if you spent entire match “disengaging” you are not gonna have any points.
“Settling for mediocrity while complaining the heads are doing it wrong is the literal definition of a half hearted effort.” <<elaborate this please.
In perfect world yes, pvp and pve should be separate. In reality it will never happen. The joke is blizz and some other companies threw exactly same, word per word excuse why they didn’t separate pve and pvp. They would have to hire mode devs for it and it will never happen.
High risk doesn’t mean you have to run with 0 defense.
If you are losing and can’t turn it around the smart move is to disengage if support is not incoming. You just become a body to put down and by disengaging you can add another body to another point to help out. If you look at points alone you are doing it wrong like seriously doing it wrong. Some times you have to hold points and defend and score less points. If you want to do what’s best for the team you are not checking your personal points you are looking at the map seeing where you are needed. That’s true across every class.
Saying that having one build working to its full capability and being happy with that is the opposite of trying to get change done. It is the equivalent of saying, “You shouldn’t be doing this to us but if you just leave us this one thing we won’t complain that much.” If you want change fight for it.
Many of us came from GW1 where it was separate. While this is bigger game no triple A company can say that and we believe them. It might be more work but a better product has better retention. If we go on pop alone PvE should actually set balance but from day one the smallest community (sPvP) has set the tone. When WvW was packed to the gills and PvE which is the highest pop PvP is still the standard for balance. And lets be real here reward tracks were to get bodies from PvE into PvP.
You said all classes should share the same risk reward. If that were so every class should have the capability to tank, equal mobility, the same burst, and the same capability to run. Thief can’t tank (PD can to a degree) but it can disengage at will and have the mobility to keep running. Warrior can run but can’t disengage at will. Mesmer can disengage but doesn’t have the mobility to out run most classes. Saying that risk and reward should be balanced cross class would really mean making big moves like removing stealth or adding it to each class with decent access because only thief and mesmer have it strong enough to pull off disengages consistently. It just won’t make any sense. Might as well have everyone play the same class.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
What Krag said is right.
About survivability. Not sure the exact number but full zerker on engineer I have like 16k hp or so with scholar runes so its pretty easy to stay up. EG gives you a blast finisher and some (light field might mess with might stacks so use with discretion) group support. FT gives you a fire field and another blast. Nades vulnerability and decent dps. Bombs blast and fire field.
Imho engineer is one of the better classes you can run with that is not “meta”. My guard is squishier but has about the same support just much more straight forward dps. We do fine in melee and at range and our healing turret (for when zerkers slip up) is one of the best heals for those who rely on scholar runes. It is my favorite class to dungeon with because I know I can do any run engineer.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
I do not believe that given same skill level thief could kill every single class out there and get away. Also, game is based around small scale group pvp and not 1v1.
It does suck that there is not much varierity, but let’s be happy we have at last one somehow competitive build (could be rangers~). If Anet could balance 1 build for every class for pvp at least it would be a start. You know it is not the case atm though.
I think it is fine that classes are balanced around pvp. Why?
PvE is quite easy and easily rewarding, NPCs will never complain about players killing them. Balancing around pve usually leads to extreme imbalance, never seen in gw2 yet. Did experience it a lot in wow though where pve balancing lead to 1 shots in pvp for months w/o devs aknowledging it.
WvW is just too imbalanced numbers wise + food + gear and level variation. I don’t think it is even remotely possible to gain any balance around that area.
That is my point though. There would be less frustration across the board if risk/reward balancing actually existed. It doesn’t exist because of managment poilitics making money: we bring out new class? Make it OP for few months so everyone buys xpac. This happens in EVERY SINGLE online game out there that adds new characters/champions/classes. Risk/reward balancing really needs to happen but sadly it won’t as Anet is a company and they want to make money; they do not care weither we find game combat fair or not.
Thieves that can’t disengage before they die is doing it wrong period. Not even up for debate. I used to pull that off with SB and very little stealth. No matter how good the other player is they can not force you to overextend. In WvW or PvP that never changes you start losing you reset and go at it again simple as that.
Settling for mediocrity while complaining the heads are doing it wrong is the literal definition of a half hearted effort.
PvP and PvE balancing should be separate. Anet said it would be too confusing for new players. Yet a game this old will have less new players and more old players coming back. So, no it does not make sense to have ALL balance changes primarily based on PvP.
WvW gets no real attention from any one who cares about it. This event is proof enough of that.
Risk reward would mean no more burst and run by any class including thief. If you have that much burst be like medi guard. Since most thief builds are built around the capability to burst, fail, reset, and try again that won’t help thief at all.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
Great post! Very informative. Thanks for explaining why DP is so overpowered!
sigh….OHHH Yes DP is so OP that it needs a nerf today but maybe just maybe other thief builds should get a look at first? Just saying smh
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
not a second before Anet restores the build variety. Too many weapon sets have been gutted. There are just too few competitive options that can not really compare to DP.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
The real questions are a bit mean but probably are the root to the issue. Will an experienced thief who does not overextend have issues with survivability? If your glass and you miss your burst and get punished is that really an issue of a 2,000-3,000 hp?
Imho their isn’t an issue on this class but most of the others. In a burst meta the burst class is king. A well played thief will down anything he or she likes including other thieves. to say, “This class needs a buff!” in this meta without considering the others is a bit silly.
What needs to be toned down is the burst. It will promote more counter play for just about everyone.
arguable…. i do not enjoy current 1-shot meta but nether i enjoyed last meta where it took ages to kill celestial classes (if sometimes impossible when they chained their skills)
i agree dmg is high atm, from everyone and needs to be toned down but what really needs to happen is ALL classes should have same risk vs reward correlation
what was wrong with last meta? bruiser being too bunkery while dishing out too much dmg
what is wrong with current meta? classes able to dish extremely high dmg while having multiple (good) ways of survival~this power creep is just wrong
having dps/roamers with high dmg and survival is wrong
having bunkers/bruisers pulling way too much dmg is wrong
simple mechanics, bad positioning, passive gameplay being rewarding is wrongProblem is: anet doesn’t see balance the way we see it. For them balance mostlikely is: oh this class is underplayed, let’s throw some buffs. Oh this class is played a lot let’s throw some nerfs. Oh, we are adding new class that might not have a job because of the existing classes? Let’s nerf those classes. Plus there are those privat skype messages from few biased top players that actually reach devs.
The problem with standardizing risk reward is thief should and would get the short end of that stick. I know and you know playing thief with no over-extension you could and will kill most anything and escape. Not a complaint but that is the nature of the class. Anets response has been to add in more revealed traits for other classes but in the process gutted most builds outside D/P (including DD outside PvE). To this point it has been a slow but steady power creep leaving one build and role standing all in the name of balance.
If you look at the big picture while celestial might have been top of the pack in the old meta what you have now is less build diversity across the board and less classes in PvP. WvW adapts but deals with the same bad outlook.
I think as long as conquest is the measuring stick by which balance is tested, power creep is the meta, players have difference in skill, and builds get dumbed down more and more we won’t see a hint of balance. It has been two years and there has been no change in attitude at Anet. Esport sits atop a hill an impossible goal and the thorn by which balance will never be achieved.
I think a bit of extra vitality won’t make or break anything. Risk reward was out the window long ago. We may hate preset roles but RPS balancing made this a lot easier.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele
I would like an event with no guards or keep lords. Players can take the position of a guard or lord with boosted stats and altered skills.
Wrekkes-Engineer Kore Rok Thief-Asraithe-Ele