Stuck bug happens to me after every other taunt I get. Im really good at typing /sit now.
On my terrormancer I get quite a lot of sliding bodies… if they die to fear they keep moving forward <sigh>.
Mine doesn’t do graphical output yet, but here’s ensigns. I disagree with his assumption that there exist matches where your opponent has a 90% chance to win that you can win 10% of the time, but it’s the most favorable to the devs of the models.
In it you can see the error range on player skill vs MMR and the error range on player skill vs player rank(num pips) is larger than what I would consider to be a fair system.https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/221876/ratingrankot.png
Yeah I don’t understand that at all. As far as I’m concerned I’m looking at a series of graphs with very little context. What are the player rank and player skill data points pulled from?
You seem to like “real experiences” more than theoretical models, fair enough.
My experience:
If I play during a low playerpool time (which currently is basically always except for 8pm to 11pm and for about 1 hour after daily reset), I can log in my main account… average mmr… and loose one match after the other (though I usually stop after two losses nowadays). Then I can switch to another account – same pip range – and queue seamlessly…. and win one match after the other.
Same build, same player, different team.
So, why is it the system considers me a good player on one account, and a bad player on another account? Ive not yet had that explained to me by anyone.
Bad account:
http://img.pichoster.eu/bf3d72c6sae.png
Good account:
http://img.pichoster.eu/e8f9f92ayllena_2.png
(edited by Yasi.9065)
Never heard of lip service or PR work have you?
<sarcasm>Because Evan has been known to do that a lot and without any sarcasm or bite to it too. </sarcasm>
But then, maybe you are just afraid of having to work a bit for legendary division next season?
A person’s view on whether s2 is based on whether they are playing one of the OP classes and if MMR is on their side.
If true to both, you are loving it.
If false to one or both, you are hating it.
This.
Several players asked for someone to queue with them to proof there are just limits on what is possible to carry.
Yet nobody ever answered them. Instead we see every other day pro players on their alt accounts farming their way through divisions, some even as teams.
Its funny how those players “prefer close matches”, but apparently like farming lower divisions just a bit more.
Did you ever have a team with 1+ teammates going afk after first timefight was a fail? I guess not. But thats the kind of teams you get when you are stuck in mmr hell.
And btw, Browrain? Im not stuck anymore, I clawed my way out, on my main account. Fun fact here: on other accounts Im well past ruby without ever getting stuck, one account even breezed right through diamond into legendary. Same player, one account getting stuck in mmr hell in ruby, another account breezing through to legendary, other accounts breezing through until diamond.
But of course, the system isnt broken at all. Must have been the full moon that allowed me to get to legendary quite easily. Or maybe I had pms and thats what got me stuck in ruby…
Its quite obvious, that players with high mmr are happy with the system – because they get easy wins – and want it to stay that way. So they provide phony evidence in the hopes anet will listen to them and will NOT reset their mmr, will NOT change the system and they keep on getting their cheap victories.
I think its hilarious, how “pro” players dont want to team up with players stuck in mmr hell and think they are providing evidence that mmr hell doesnt exist by creating new f2p accounts… it kinda says a lot about the so called “pro” players.
Every dumb donkey can see that if you start with a high volatile but average mmr, and you win the first 10 or so matches, your mmr will steadily climb. You will get put on the winning side more often than on the loosing side… the higher your mmr, the less you get put on the loosing side… et voila…
What you’ve actually proven, is how kittening BROKEN this system is. You think it takes skill to win if you are put against worse teams all the time? No, it doesnt.
Is it based purely on MMR?
Did I skip right over it by getting a 100% winrate in Ruby playing core ranger?
Part of me thinks that I just wasn’t bad enough to lose? The only games I lost were 1 in Emerald because my teammates were awful and I was refusing to carry the team fight (so that was my bad). And then later I just kept 1 v 1ing for funsies in Saphire so my team also kept losing in the team fight. Afterwards I would just go carry the team fight and we’d be on our merry way to a crushing victory.
This kind of just makes me think that “MMR Hell” is simply that people are where they are supposed to be.
Amber/Emerald: https://www.twitch.tv/eurantien/v/55791944
Rest of Emerald: https://www.twitch.tv/eurantien/v/56057538
Saphire: https://www.twitch.tv/eurantien/v/56586587
Ruby: https://www.twitch.tv/eurantien/v/56788837Meanwhile: There is a thread also on the front page atm:
“Lower tier ruby what do I need 2 do 2 win”
I’m in the lower tier of ruby and struggling to put together win streaks. What is the main thing I need to focus on to win more matches?
Take a look at my vod, playing a non meta build vs. his vod playing a meta build. Given that the OP of this thread is saying, “can’t put together winstreaks” I think we could say he is in MMR Hell? Yet when you compare the two the difference in game play is apparent. I do not believe this player, at his/her current level should be making it out of Ruby.
Team up with someone that is in mmr hell and enjoy the pain.
I could understand that mallyx hybrid build… it really is a pain in my butt if there’s too much pain absorption going on…
But maybe they switch to power-rev, because they know… 90% of all necro players are bad and let themselves get farmed easily <sigh>.
But if they outheal the dps, that means the players on the enemyteam get high score, which then means that you are again down in points compared to enemy team.
The important part is rewarding dps and bunkering, without making it too rewarding.
That necro for example, fighting a bunker on enemy point will always have less score than the bunker, because bunker heals himself up and he got the cap. Whereas that necro only produces dps, without cap.
And he risks getting -25 points if the fight takes too long because someone from enemyteam might decide to free that bunker and kill the necro.
I think there definitely should be at least a penalty score for dieing. Players just run in without thinking all the time… but with a penalty score for it, they would finally stop doing that.
Of course, its important to have a dps meta for that… and not a bunker meta. ^^
I learned a really valuable lesson, yes.
I learned that you should NEVER count on your teammates to finish a job, to do the smart thing.
And I learned that if I have to carry, I have to do that by playing cheesy builds designed to wreak most havoc in as short amount of time as possible, because:
Teammates in soloqueue WILL rallybot.
So, I stopped playing my ele and ranger, got back to my roots and played necro. Viper necro. With as much dps as possible and fleshwurm as escape hatch.
So, I stopped playing my corruption necro build on non-hot account – which is quite effective… IF you have someone that does dps and doesnt die immediatly…. and I switched back to my cheesy terrormancer build.
Yeah, I learned a lot during this season. I learned that I can survive the whole match without dieing, get top player (condi) dps and watch my teammates rallybot five to ten times.
But most importantly… I learned that if I carry those noobs all the way to legendary, they actually think they are good. Talk about self deception there….
Ah, but it would be so easy to let scoreboard reflect more contribution.
Like… you get 5 points for every 10k dmg dealt/soaked/healed… and you get -25 points for every time you die.
Then score could be used to determine contribution to win/loss et voila… individual mmr.
So what if leaving portals isnt part of score? You get points for stuff that result out of it.
And the times where sitting on point afk was a thing, those times are long over.
A lot of HP? O_O
And trapper runes are not really that good on DH… they are however very nice on redux trap ranger.
Ranger daily.
Reason: Profession achievements in ranked.
Remove profession achievements, balance professions…. et voila… no more ridiculously stacked professions.
Matchmaker should not be forced to solve this. Stacked professions are symptoms of wrong achievement design and broken balancing, not the result of bad matchmaking.
I think you should play a FT turret build instead. p/p of course.
Go back to season1 mechanics, allow lopsided matches instead of forcing 50/50, award more pips for winning in a high mmr match (meaning: if both teams are pro league niveau, they should get 5 pips per win, but only loose 1-2 pips if they loose).
Or instead of awarding more pips for higher mmr matches, run placement matches during off-season, solo queue only… teamscore divided through matches shows where the player belongs.
Winstreak awards luck, comeback pip awards loosing. No consideration for close matches. Has been pointed out quite often now. Nice to have shiny pictures to go with it
Nice work, btw.
/edit:
Btw, not stuck in mmr hell anymore. Playing with teammates and during primetime helped definitely getting out of negative mmr rating. And LOTS of wins.
I’ve always thought that “Rotation” was a bad term for GW2 conquest.
When someone says “learn to rotate” “please rotate” they are essentially saying: Learn how to be in the most advantageous positioning possible for our team, at all times and learn to do it quickly.
Needless to say, there is too much to explain about proper “Rotations” in this thread but you get the idea.
Not really, no.
Now hear me out first before getting all up in arms about it.
L2rotate means pretty much knowing the build one is running, using that build to its fullest potential and keeping the minimap in view.
Everything else about “rotations” follows out of those three principals.
For example… reaper atm.
Reaper is a teamfighter. But reaper is slow. If your team plays sides because they lost midfight, you glance at minimap, at party overview and you see the following situation.
Close is being held by one DH against a mesmer and ranger, that DH slowly looses health. Far is being contested by three of your team vs. two of enemy team.
Now, you are a teamfighter… but… before you can get to far, that fight is probably over – either way. Whereas you can easily reach home, nuke from the sides and decide that fight. After home is cleared, you can rotate towards mid, but do not engage immediately.
Why?
Because you might have to run for far if your teammates dont move their kitten to mid also.
I picked this scenario for a reason. It should be pretty clear cut imo, but I see so many reapers running for far after respawn because thats where the teamfight is…. or running mid “because only one is defending it”. Loosing home, not contesting mid and freeing up two enemy roamers to run and decide that far fight.
Thats the moment I type “l2rotate”.
Nobody expects big pro-league rotations in soloqueue. But if you keep those three principals in mind:
- Know your build
- Watch minimap
- Watch party overview
You will get so much better at rotations.
Another example.. especially often seen on legacy.
Respawners all run over close to mid, even though close is being defended by a dh with full health against a mesmer. Makes absolutely no sense to run via close to mid, maybe even stopping and using cooldowns there, and wasting valuable time on it.
And here’s something “advanced”.
If you glance at your party menu… and you see 3 people dead. Why wouldnt you wait and gather to then run into that midfight and make it a 4v4 instead of a 4v1 four times?
You see, its nothing complicated. It really is quite simple IF you start using your brain instead of tunnelvisioning your way through each map.
Have to… fight those… WINDMILLS.
And if they fight back… well… Im just gonna call them all racists! Stupid windmills.
Btw, what does a build have to do with race?
4 necros, 1 DH vs mes, thief, necro, rev, ele
Necros won, even though one necro was pretty much useless and nearly cost us win by first overextending to far and then dc’ing for over 2 min.
First match I ever won with more than three necros on my side.
I know, its not a defeated match… well it was for the other team… but it shows that clearly skill > teamcomp.
2 DH, 1 rev, 1 ele, 1 necro vs 3 necros, 1 ele, 1 DH
guess who won
Hi,
Id really really really love to get my hands on some statistical data.
Like:
1. Whats the mmr range spread for each division (excluding outliers)?
2. What was the mmr range for each division last season?
3. How many outliers are there in each division?
4. How many active players?
Whats the data you guys want to see?
Or if you dont want to see data at all, why?
You are probably better off posting this in the bug forum section, since that section get read more often.
First bug with AI confirmed
Btw, happens more and more :/ I think some players are now doing it on purpose, which is just lame.
Projectiles should work pretty nicely to find that body and cleave it…
In the video you see that quite nicely, the ele is trying to hit with fire1, but the cast doesnt fire off because even though he is facing the body on screen, the downed player still lies behind him.
And when he rezzed himself up, he spawns where he got downed…
Problematic with that bug is, that you cant rupt players self-rezz. Meaning, you have to have enough cleave dmg to outdps the selfrezz. An ele might run into some problems there ^^
(edited by Yasi.9065)
Had it happen today, too… but I was able to just keep on cleaving on the spot the downed player well… got downed… didnt have to chase him at all.
So might be, chasing is the wrong way to go about that… and just keep on cleaving.
I rather doubt there are more than a handful outliers, especially because the longer the system runs, the more players congregate on both sides. Meaning only players that start late get to be outliers. But even they will fall to one or the other side rather quickly….
Idk if this thread is meant as a joke, or if OP really wants to remove a weaponset ^^
I know you meant as a “I made it, so can you” statement, but it shows how rather flawed the system actually is.
I bet most of the time you only got matched against players that couldnt identify and dodge the necessary skills. Its what I experienced on an account on the “easy” side of mmr.
I dont think its too much for players to know two professions.
My main has been necro for years now, and still I can log on a druid, ele or mesmer, to round out that teamcomp if absolutely necessary. I dont like it, but I can do it.
With those professions, Im not as good as on my necro, but still good enough to make it worth switching.
If you are a really good thief, you should be able to master another professions with a couple of unranked matches.
Well, let the necro with the best placed passives win !
And yeah, profession achievements have to go…
Fivedawgs actually has a good point there.
I didnt think it was possible, but actually, players got so bad in ruby that I think, before season is over… quite a lot will be able to grind their way into legendary simply due to all those even worse that are pushing into ruby now.
Amber → pip and tier lock
Emerald → tier lock, 5 pips per tier
Sapphire → division lock, 4 tiers
Ruby → no locks, 5 tiers
Diamond → no locks, 6 tiers
No bottleneck in amber, none in emerald, season not long enough for a bottleneck to form on sapphire.
Ithilwen, your posts are getting a bit ridiculous. Of course there would be enough players above sapphire to sustain matches. There have been enough players in pvp long before they added pve rewards to draw in all those mostly useless pve-achievement-grinders…
Depending on time of day, I had similar experiences on my legendary account, though not quite so consistent. My low(er) mmr account has only reached diamond t1 today, so I cant really compare it to situation in ruby.
In ruby/diamond I had quite a lot of blowouts on my legendary account while winstreaking my way through those divisions. Whereas my mainaccount only has a handful of blowouts (most of those a victory btw) and a lot of 400+ defeats.
Now here’s the thing though… my non-hot account has a lot of close wins, and nearly no blowouts.
I think blowouts happen, if either the teamcomp just makes you wanna afk (3 thieves etc) or the mmr difference is way too big …. or there’s really only five bad players on that team and nobody can carry.
Division, tier?
People think necro is easy to win fights with, but its just as easy to kill stupid necros. Same goes for DH, mesmer and revs btw.
I have a legendary account, 3 ruby accounts on their way to legendary with only a handful lost games since season start, and one diamond account which was stuck in ruby for weeks until today.
I can carry, I can climb the ranks, and I can see the huge flaws with the current mechanics.
Everybody just saying “everything works, only baddies whining” obviously hasnt looked closely enough at the problems.
Open your eyes and look at the quality of a lot of players in ruby and diamond. Why are they there? How can they get to fourth division out of six, without learning not to rush on point when there’s a dh standing on it?
(edited by Yasi.9065)
What players perceive as mmr hell, is basically the exaggeration effect. Somewhere along the way you get lucky, or unlucky, as an average mmr player. You dont even really notice that until you are firmly stuck on the wrong side of average and the quality of your teammates gets worse and worse.
And due to the exaggeration effect, the climb up is more difficult.
By dividing the playerbase in teams according their mmr and then NOT prioritizing similar ratings between the teams facing each other, anet caused the matchmaking system to fall into a state in that there’s a winner playerpool and a looser playerpool.
Idk how your simulations exactly work, but could you test what would happen if the worst dont get matched against the best, but rather the matchmaker tries to find two teams with similar mmr and match those two?
My guess is that the exaggeration effect wont be as bad, if you exclude matchups that are too skewed.
Not proof per se, but rather a bit of fun fact.
Ive got several accounts Im playing in pvp. Atm, Ive got those two that are pretty close together pip-wise (ruby t5).
First screenshot is an account with quite a few matches played, I started with around 52% winrate on that account into season 2.
Second screenshot is an account that just hit rank20 about a week ago or so. So mmr is still volatile I guess.
Funny thing is… if I queue off primetime (like 7am for example) on the first account, I always get put on a horrible team. Nobody assists, nobody rotates… just horrible.
If I queue immediatly after loosing on first account with the second account… I get put on the team that just won against me. Assist, support, rotation… everything fine.
That first account dropped down to t3 ruby, after hitting t6 ruby about 2 weeks ago.
That second account hasnt even yet had a loosing streak longer than 2 matches, and that was in amber. This is actually the fourth account Im pushing through leagues, and I feared I ruined that account because I pretty much started seasons on that account with 2 losses. But apparently it didnt affect my mmr that badly.
/edit:
Btw, Im pretty much always running the same build and the same profession, on first account I started season with elementalist. But carry-potential of elementalist is rather not so good, if your team just runs straight on point and melts due to not having put up lifeforce etc. So I decided to go back to my roots and play necromancer, which is the profession Im best at anyway. I usually run something really glassy, but switch to a bit more tanky (carrion or mercenary) when I see 3 revs/necros on other team.
(edited by Yasi.9065)
They could however still change the backpiece to a 4-tiered reward track.
Each tier can only be done once.
Instead of wings being the end reward, tickets are awarded accordingly.
Track 1 -> 10 tickets, thrill of battle
Track 2 -> 20 tickets, tapestry of sacrifice
Track 3 -> 30 tickets, monument of legends
Track 4 -> 40 tickets, hymn of glory
The other rewards could be your basic glorious reward track rewards. Only the endchest has to be changed into tickets.
To get the missing 25 tickets I think it was? You have only to make it out of amber twice.
These reward tracks would only progress if you are in ranked matches. So they would have to be separate from the common reward tracks. Maybe use a separate “league reward track gain” thats only available on win/loose of ranked matches during seasons.
So, for all those that already got meta achievements done, the next reward track would be unlocked, the ones already done wouldnt be available.
Meaning, if you have Part II meta achievement done and are currently working on Part III, you get Track 3 unlocked. Finishing Track 3 would unlock Track 4, no matter if you have the meta achievement Part III done. This would be a one-time thing to separate the backpiece from achievements.
So, it is possible. But of course, its extra work.
/edit:
Or, to make ranking up divisions still desirable in addition to those tracks, anet could make the meta achievement items available for tickets and increase ticket gain in reward track accordingly. So players that make it to legendary can buy them directly with the tickets they accumulated, whereas players that dont make it out of emerald can “grind” the reward track.
(edited by Yasi.9065)
Three reapers and a thief, its a comp where you have to play smart. Its quite easy to win that, IF your reapers know how to position themselves so they can do maximum dps without needing tons of sustain. It is khylo, its quite easy to position yourself so only the rev is a problem, but if you switch focus to that rev as soon as he overextends, you should do okay.
From score distribution, Id guess you let thief cap home, ranger went with mid… and necros died on point in mid. Thats probably the worst opening you can do on khylo with three necros.
Ranger caps home, thief shoots treb on clocktower a coule of times and then moves on to far decap, necros position sides of clocktower → focus rev when he ports up, focus ranger afterwards and you might win that first teamfight, if the enemy team isnt smart enough to give up trying to cap and chases a necro.
If they do focus one necro, peel, run in range to close for ranger to support.
Its how I would have tried to play with that comp. Might not be the best way, but you should at least be able to get a higher score than under 200.
a single player cant kill the lord fast enough before the enemy team can react, lord is strong enough and doesnt need any changes, if your door is broken that already means you should be prepared to rush to defend your lord any moment past 300 points
what should be changed however is the clarity of alarm message for lord defense, if the announcer is spammed by some messages like point capture info or “base under attack” it will often delay reporting that the lord is being attacked which might lead to defenders being late
You clearly havent seen a DH do it. I started running straight to lord yesterday from mid when the message came, that DOORS are being attacked, and when I reached our gate he was dead. Thats just ridiculous.
With scrappers lord is around 40% when I reach him. So if someone just simply roots me, on my way there, I cant reach him in time to defend him.
umm ye what you describe isnt quite possible unless you were running as a crippled and chilled necro with zero mobility skills
How many seconds does it take for you to run from mid to the lord?
About 30seconds, depending on if I have swiftness up or not… Im a necro… so not the fastest. Gate might have had not full health, I killed a mesmer quite often on my way to close to recap it. Still, even if the gate had only 20% health left… 30 seconds is just way too fast for something that gives 150 points.
Season1 matchmaking was horrible for me, I got matched with total noobs all the time and every single pip was a fight for me.
Season2 at least this only started after I reached ruby and took a few days break. And since a few days ago I can again progress due to facing not quite so much higher teams.
Of course season1 was “fun” for below average players. They got put on teams with above average players and got carried by them.
Season2 changed that. And rightly so.
I posted this quite often now before, but since this is yet a new thread about this….
Season2 moved in the right direction with matchmaking based on mmr only for finding teammates. There should however be a max distance between teams too.
For example:
TeamA has 500 rating
TeamB has 1,200 rating
TeamC has 1,500 rating
TeamD has 700 rating
Atm, whichever team gets filled first, matches up against the one that gets filled next.
So this would result in following matches:
TeamA – TeamB (500 – 1,200) and
TeamC – TeamD (1,500 – 700)
If, however, anet adds a max distance of lets say 500, then the matches would be:
TeamA – TeamD (500 – 700) and
TeamB – TeamC (1,200 – 1,500)
If that max distance is big enough to allow lopsided matches, but keep total blowouts from happening, then players still get fasttracked to their position in ladder, but without creating total havoc like this season start.
It also makes for better match quality for both sides.
Important change in season2 was moving away from 50/50 matchmaking. This was a step in the correct direction.
Now anet only has to prevent total blowouts from happening, and has to prevent pure grinding and rest will sort itself.
To remove the grinding, anet has to change locks. Theres no way around it.
Amber → pip and tier lock
Emerald → tier lock, 5 pips per tier
Sapphire → division lock, 4 tiers
Ruby → no locks, 5 tiers
Diamond → no locks, 6 tiers
This way, everybody can grind out of amber into emerald, but the bigger tiersize will be enough of a challenge to keep players from bottlenecking sapphire t1 like they do atm in ruby and diamond.
The reduced amount of tiers is to make up for removing division locks.
I think those two changes would reduce the amount of players reaching ruby, diamond and legendary to make those titles count for something.
While the above mentioned change to matchmaking between teams will make for better matchups and better progression.
(edited by Yasi.9065)
Niflhel is a great map, especially for necros.
You just have to use the structures there, and remember that you are a ranged profession, not a melee.
Why would you leave a place you can perfectly use to block line of sight and/or thats hard to reach for melees and trade it for open field? Thats just the kind of stupid mistake I see on that map a lot.
Mid, there’s these stairs, and the statue… but people are just standing there and taking every single projectile in their face… camping node.
Side points, nobody is using really the structures there, but they are GREAT especially if you have a DH sitting on point and you are a ranged. You can weave in and out of obstacles, hitting with ranged attacks, and they usually cant even heal themselves up, because they are stupid enough to take the trap heal.
The reality of Ruby is that you probably belong in Ruby. Anybody who disagrees can feel free to post their PvP API key for analysis.
The reality of ruby is, that there is a TON of players that DONT belong there but grinded their way there.
Please anet, limit profession achievements to unranked at least.
Ranked is NO place to try out new professions. But with those horrible profession achievements you ENCOURAGE exactly that.
a single player cant kill the lord fast enough before the enemy team can react, lord is strong enough and doesnt need any changes, if your door is broken that already means you should be prepared to rush to defend your lord any moment past 300 points
what should be changed however is the clarity of alarm message for lord defense, if the announcer is spammed by some messages like point capture info or “base under attack” it will often delay reporting that the lord is being attacked which might lead to defenders being late
You clearly havent seen a DH do it. I started running straight to lord yesterday from mid when the message came, that DOORS are being attacked, and when I reached our gate he was dead. Thats just ridiculous.
With scrappers lord is around 40% when I reach him. So if someone just simply roots me, on my way there, I cant reach him in time to defend him.
Lord needs a downstate, a better healing skill (preferably something like rev glint heal) and should always reveal players that enter the dais.
Scrapper just use their stealth gyro, stealth behind boss, whip out bulwark gyro and hammer lord down in record time.
DH just jump in, put down traps, knock him back, pull him → lord dead.
Thats a kittening bad design.
Well, thats just great -.- smurfing in reverse. Great.
Btw, to all that are now thinking of doing exactly that… you still have to face good teams and you still are bad players, so you will still loose.
You are only ruining the mmr of the amber account…
“Really difficult opponents” though, they will move on, you stand still, meaning you get less good opponents, which in turn will you let move on.
Ive never really had w-l-w-l over more than 10 matches, and mostly just logging off and logging back in a bit later already solved that problem.
Usually I get 3-6 wins, then a couple of losses with a win thrown in every now and then… then I start a winstreak again and so on.
I take that as a sign that Im still progressing and not yet at my maximum.
Longest loosing streak I ever had, btw, was 6 games lost. Most pips I lost with only a win now and then in between (something like l-l-w-l-l-l-w-l-l), was 11 pips. It actually happened when I joined a “pvp” guild and queueing with some of those guildmembers.
Lack of trials should have been my warning <sigh>.
Not saying pvp lfg guilds are all bad, found a handful of good players there… but… the majority probably just joins because they are stuck.