Guild Wars 2

brannigan.9831:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

No nerfs for mesmer, only buffs. ANet be trolling.

They almost never do the right thing why should we be surprised now. They don’t really involve the community in anything and they don’t have a test server to test changes and allow people to give feedback or suggestions. They are the worst devs when it comes to balance and soliciting feedback of any group of devs of any MMORPG I’ve ever played and i’ve played a lot. They are take it or leave it we know better then you types. I really haven’t seen that type of attitude since Everquest 15 years ago. I am used to playing games where the devs are on the forums a lot and explain there reasoning with the playerbase and sometimes gasp change things based on the feeback they get and sometimes even implement things that were suggested first by the playerbase. Not just roll out garbage and say “eat up” fools.

you guys didnt even read the patch note and check what skills or weapon set they buffed on mes before made post complaining and you wonder why you lost in pvp .
its too funny
also slow got nerfed .

Azukas.1426:

And Mesmer is Meta!!!!

So far watching that 1st game mesmers are a playing a HUGE part!!!

Let’s see how the rest of the games pan out, but I don’t think we’re going to see too much variation.

Mostly by moa and portal as always . Tempest is imbalance to a point where moa could be really really important for a match .

And mes is good for 1v1 most meta build now .

Fivedawgs.4267:

Supreme.3164:

Fivedawgs.4267:

Supreme.3164:

Interpret Interrupt.3824:

Supreme.3164:

These necro players are out of touch with reality….some of them can still put up a straight face and swear that necros still need buffs, asking to nerf everybody else except themselves and ofc still putting up a facade by suggesting worthless nerfs like reduction to weakening shroud, like weakness is what causing the 2-3 necros for team madness in season 2…..kittening unbelievable

“Air Overload has massive pressure” like what are you even smoking? what pressure from a cleric amulet? in this CC intensive meta how does the ele even manage to overload if not rarely?

When it was last time you saw more than one ele (if any at all) in a team?
Here in diamond you just see reaper/scrapper all day, every day 24/7……..till the end of cursed season

At the top end of diamond, I have encountered several dual ele teams that spam air overload on cd since the other attunements are useful in bunkering.

Fluffball.8307:

I strongly disagree with your entire post. Some things need tweaked, but you’re just asking for everyone to be running the same beige-neutral-profession.

I am just pointing out the obviously strong things of each profession. Adjusting each one of these would not make all of the professions magically the same.

Lexander.4579:

zero mention of impacting disruption trait on thief?

interrupting some important skill is already a reward in itself and having d/p braindead thieves spam headshot to interrupt auto-attacks just to proc the trait is stupid

this trait needs a c/d obviously

I did not consider this initially because I forgot about it. But headshot takes 4 initial which is about 27% of the 15 initiative bar. At that fraction of the resource bar, it is ok. Headshot alone does minimal damage and the impact damage is delayed by a few seconds. It needs an icd of like 2 seconds because longer would make it less usable. Maybe even 1 sec.

rummy.4102:

Interpret Interrupt.3824:

Ranger
1) Search and Rescue- Traited SnR on 36 second cool down. Take out quickness res, introduce class specific quickness rez. Check
2) Strength of the Pack- An over tuned Signet of Rage. The pulsing stability is much better though
Both of these abilities benefit from the reduction trait pretty well.

No to SotP! Unless you vastly reduce the amount of cc’s other classes can produce instantly and often. It is a ranger/Druid’s only stability skill that is viable (of the two we have) with any build.

The fact that the only reliable stability source for the class is the elite should tell you that the class is meant to be weak to cc. Hence the massive emphasis on ranged combat. Similarly to a thief. You cannot justify the powercreep with other power creep else you create a positive feedback loop that finitely buffs everything. I think this is the approach Anet takes and probably is why everything is going up instead of down.

rchu.8945:

Interpret Interrupt.3824:

Mesmer
1) Continuum Split Moa- Let’s take on of the best skills in the game, and cut the cd in half. And Half is a rough estimate, considering the alacrity production.
Why does continuum split still affect elite skills anyway. Let’s just chop the cd of every elite in the game in half. What kind of balance does that generate?
2) Moa- Casting this skill behind you is strong. I have definitely been moa’ed by mesmers facing the wrong way.

Mesmer got overnerfed compare to all the classes, alacrity got butchered, u want to nerf them even more, you better start coming up compensations.

See response to above quote. Again, this is intended to show strength. Not compare to currently over powered items. There are many threads suggesting the skill be reduced to 5 secs with half the cd. I think the solution is to make chronomancer not affect elite skills.
———————
@Stand The Wall.6987- Thank you for your contribution list.

Double ele in diamond?

From pvp to wvw..ele is nothing more than a healbot, anything else it’s just insta dead..wow I don’t think we’re playing the same game really…or you must be trolling one of the two..you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about

Idk you personally nor your experience but I can tell you ele are strong and hard to kill, if you are being one shotted with headbutts, then you are doing something wrong. And about the OP experience, well we might not agree on everything but dude has been playing the class for quite a while, multiclass and is legendary. So I mean…

Hmmm legendary and?…I’m diamond for the 2nd season in a row soloq and will go legendary too..and? does that make me a special snowflake?

Hard to kill?…anything is “hard to kill” 1vs1 while wearing a cleric amulet

Strong?..not really…legendary and multiclass..and die to cleric air overload?
Even more, legendary and all ..incapable of interrupting a low dmg skill with 4s cast time? KK

I need to jump on a profession never tried before and try very very very hard…to die to an ele in the current meta

You missed my point, all meant was that the OP, whether trolling or not, knows what he is talking about. Because you don’t get to legendary and multiclass without knowing the ins and outs of each classes. It may be that his experience differ from yours, but then again your points are stronger as his. So, dismissing ones experience because it differs from yours is meh…

I think you missed superme point : ele isnt dominating the pvp like it used to be . so ele is too weak and need to massive buff .
being op for support role isnt enough for old ele players who used to play godlike class

Interpret Interrupt.3824:

musu.9205:

Interpret Interrupt.3824:

2) Moa- Casting this skill behind you is strong. I have definitely been moa’ed by mesmers facing the wrong way.

I can see its really strong if you are playing first person version .

but i admitted i thought you wrote this line for good laugh .

Its not like you cant see the mesmer behind you like in a fps game .

No you misunderstand me. The mesmer while running away from you can moa you.

I dont get this sentence ?

you mean mes could cast moa while moving ?

like i said moa itself has many many counter play . lets fix the power creep hot introduced first so in that 10s u will get less damage and condi and cc.then we can talk about balance of moa .

Curunen.8729:

Good because personally I’m fed up with the entire “raison d’etre” of Mesmer in pvp revolving around these two skills.

It’ll expose how weak the rest of the class is for the balance team.

honestly i dont like moa myself.

but for portal ,its a good designed skill ,it opens up more strategies . deeper game play is what gw2 needs .

Anet just failed to balance

Interpret Interrupt.3824:

2) Moa- Casting this skill behind you is strong. I have definitely been moa’ed by mesmers facing the wrong way.

I can see its really strong if you are playing first person version .

but i admitted i thought you wrote this line for good laugh .

Its not like you cant see the mesmer behind you like in a fps game .

Shaogin.2679:

Burtnik.5218:

1. Biggest offender here aka Rocket Charge – remove leap finisher

Its main reason what makes scrapper so broken, triple leap finisher in water field? Yes please..

2. Perfectly Weighted – remove stability

Engineer was supposed to be weak to cc so im not sure what so high stab uptime doing here

3. Rapid Regeneration – halve the amount of healing but increase scaling.

Atm theres no point to get healing power on engineer. It scales like kitten while the base regen is quite high.

4. Add cast time to Sneak Gyro so it cant be used under cc

Cus its pure bs and free reset button if you dont have reveal.

Feel free to flame /shrug

1. Reducing to only having a leap finisher on the first leap is a great idea.

2. Who decided Scrapper was supposed to be weak to CC. The spec is designed to fight in melee. Trait is fine as is.

Definitely agree with 3 and 4.

Btw, I say all this with more hours played on my Engi than any other class.

CC was a issue for core engi ,but anet just threw so many good passive traits to engi for them to counter cc .but it results in a passive play fashion .

its better we reduce cc from all classes and cut off those ridiculous stability uptime or reapplication . Same goes for boons and boon corruption .

And engi was weak to CC mainly due to they had to slot kits to be viable (usually more than one kit),but that resulted less stunbreak choice they had .currently meta engi build is around one kit and all those passive traits .Id like anet actually gives engi stunbreak on proper toolbelt skill rather than keeping the passive play.

Rodzynald.5897:

The funniest thing about certain classes is that you can nerf if but the base concept of some abilities is OP in itself.
This is how I see mesmers who can basicaly play with you as they see fit and disengage safely from combat anytime of the day if things turn grim. Also elementalists that have 4 attunements so they have 20 weapon skills to choose from and this wide variety gives them an advantage from the beginning (it does not work like that I know, but still…) because well… they have 4 different combat capabilities instead of just one or two.
Yeh it sounds dumb but this is my point of view, some classes are just made to be strong despite of nerfs or buffs.

Now another thing, Moa is a great shutdown… somehow it reminds me of guardian’s weak as kitten signet that is signet of courage and its cast time in particular.
How about just give moa signet the same casting time? This should be easier to avoid and CC considering that most of mesmers use their signet on stealth or in a grand cluster-truck of teamfight aoe where it is really hard to spot it or you are just out of dodge and other stuff to counter that signet.

If no, then give signet of courage a fast cast time and let it be used on one ally to fully heal them and break any form of CC (even moa). That could work out nicely if it ever got fixed.

Moa doesnt count as CC since you wont stunbreak it .

“This is how I see mesmers who can basicaly play with you as they see fit and disengage safely from combat anytime of the day if things turn grim.”

I got your point about how the concept of moa is strong enough which i agree .But War , engi ,thief and even power ranger can do it better than mesmers .And current meta mes doesnt have much disengage abilities. the unique things mes have are portal ,moa , shatter , illusion and ofc gutted alacrity ,also maybe high quickness uptime but questionable. the engaging and disengaging abilities are not a mesmer special thing .

But keep in mind as a light armor ,mid hp pool ,burst style class , anet designed mes with better IN COMBAT MOBILITY to begin with . But now it feels mediocre comparing to thief , war , rev and even druid especially after the constantly nerf to mes staff .

All in all I wont mind signet of courage has shorter cast time since its useless now . I think it could be 3s casting time with small aoe aegis ,but also reduce its active radius from 1200 to 600.

but guys ,people on pvp forum is like : necro is op , we need to nerf mes as it counters necro in teamfight with moa .

i dont know if anet will listen to this , since they will buff ele first for the crying from ele players who are carried by op specs for so long .

or anet will nerf necro axe or blood magic traits line more since logic .

reality is scrapper, tempest and rev are more op than reaper . they all need some serious nerf and rework .

but Karl is balance team leader , also more and more good players left game anyway .

Jelzouki.4128:

You know it’s a problem when Phantaram says he thinks Moa should be removed from the game even though he plays mesmer. What does it say about the skill when The Lord Helseth said the only thing keeping mesmer in the meta after the chronobunker nerf was moa.

We need proper fixes lol. This is a legit issue, not that stupid “omg reduce chill to 33% effectiveness”

Helseth means without moa and portal , a mes is useless in pvp for his team .by useless ,i mean current meta mesmer is for bad teamfight , okish mobilty ,its ok to 1v1 certain classes with much more efforts . But if you wanna be useful for your team rather than wasting your time, you wont try hard to 1v1 on a mes .(Helseth also said this ).

And both Helseth and Phantaram will agree mes will need many serious buff and rework from core class to chrono if moa is removed .But none of those are happening ,so you can see why mes players are defending this for good reasons .Also there are many things on other 4 meta classes : rev , necro , engi, ele are far worse for game health with less counter play and they require less effort to pull off like engi stealth gyro, chill application from reaper ,engi rapid regeneration etc.

Lets be honest here , no matter how powerful you think moa is , you can try mes in mid level to high level pvp and feel the reality yourself .but i think even tho you guys always claim that mes is a easy win , you never played mes at high lvl pvp for once except the chrono bunker op time.

first of all people who hate mes as always have nothing left to complain

second ,balance team leader is karl

third,with massive power creep hot introduced , quality of players seems to become worse and worse . so all i saw in pvp forum are ridiculous complaints ,they dont even bother to read anything remotely related to mes but complain about pure nonsense.

Curunen.8729:

I’d say:

1. Halve the duration of moa to ~5s on a 90s cooldown in pvp and,
2. Swap Time Warp with Portal, making Time Warp a regular utility Glamour and put Portal back on a 90s cooldown as an elite skill and reduce the duration of Time warp to ~7s with a 90s cooldown.
3. Make F5 not work with elites.

1.if you guys hate moa so much , rework is much betetr than nerfing it to 5s on 90s cd ,lets say after that it will be a trash skill since it is only used to kill tank build in team fight .5s moa with skill5 evade its 4s for a kill . worse than engi toolbelt skill which is 120s but aoe 3s moa duration which only has 1/2 s cast time ,also much harder to see the animation on engi than mes .

2.you know the concept : if something isnt broken , dont fix it .

3.if f5 doesnt work with elite ,mes elites need a massive cd reduce .current cd especially timewrap was this freaking long partly due to chrono (also glamour CDR trait doesnt reduce timewrap cd )

speak about this, i like how anet always refused to split skills but only made special sets of rule towards mesmer lol

in this thread you can say by making mes skills with special rules

,anet did prove that this way noobs do get confused in this very thread lol

Dethl.2875:

FirehawkDAR.9021:

It´s a 50sec cd on your f5 with alacrity

50 seconds? I call hax! If you can prove it that moa can be cast so frquently with alacricity, I’m going to report you to anet to ban your account, because moa signet with trait is 144 seconds, 180 without. After the second cast for which the 90 sec F5 is needed you will have to wait out the full CD meaning it’s mathematically impossible to spam moa by 50 sec intervals consecutively. So get your facts straight before spouting blatant lies.

evanlegion.7680:

mesmer F5 cd is longer than 50 sec so stop lying

if you guys are gonna defend mesmer/moa, you should probably test stuff first before spouting out nonsense.

first moa cast should always be under the effects of f5. it is stupid not to do that. a second moa cast (using the actual cooldown) needs to be avoided unless you really have to to win a teamfight. (if 2nd moa is cast in a 1v1, what the hell were you trying to accomplish that you didn’t do in the first moa? a double moa anywhere outside of a teamfight is a horrible play).

this means the decent, repetitive moa has a cd equal to f5 in most cases. since illusions is pretty much guaranteed, this puts f5 at a cd of 76.5s. with the effects of alacrity, a rough guess at 50s isn’t unreasonable. under full effect constantly, it puts it at ~57s.

under the incredible,very well managed test of me spamming 2-3 clone shatters and using SoI (which is actually pretty close to mesmer gameplay right now) using the ranked queue as a timer, i got 63s of moa cd. (with no improved alac). using f5 out of comabt and then using mind wracks/cry of frustration of cooldown got me ~71s.

is that more than 50s? yeah. is it substantially less than 180s? yes. don’t be stupid.

do it in actual pvp on an actual build please .

.well at least you tried far better than most complainers in this thread.

“spamming 2-3 clone shatters” you meant you well managed to wasted all your damage skills and finally you could use moa 5-6 times in a match even we assume every moa success , you still need at least one teammate around you for the actual kill .
your mes playstyle looks more like a burden to me .

the usual cooldown of f5 is around 75-90s depending your fight .

If you play mes like that , please be my opponent , easy win for me

Patrick.2987:

Blackjack just remember: Dodge s3 and s5 and moa afterwards. U have only 2 dodges? L2P!

you can also condi cleanse to s3 or kill clone before mes swap or walk away ,
you can stunbreak after getting stunned by s5 also stability

try a bit harder next time plz

Ara.4569:

Yes moa is broken: you’re locked out of your profession for 10 freaking seconds. Once in moa there’s 0 counterplay. Did I say it lasts 10 freaking seconds ?

But these threads are hopeless because ANET doesn’t give a kitten.

moa has skills to escape .thats it , reading is too hard .

also before that so called 10 freaking seconds happens ,there are many many ways to avoid getting moaed .and mes does need effort to pull off moa kill usually with teammates focus fire on moa too .

Blackjack.5621:

The strongest elite in the game, utterly broken , on a 50second cd with f5 and alacrity.

It was already broken with the regular cooldown. Just arguing its hard to land when you can just lock people into a cc with sword/shield doesn´t justify a skill that freekills someone even in a 1v1 withing 5 seconds , on a stupidly short cooldown.

No counter, no fun, completely broken.

if you cant dodge sword 3 and shield 5 .you are a noob .

and about no counter part , pathetic liar . blind , evade , block , los and even in moa form you have skill 2 and 5 to escape ,also your traits are still working .

Blackjack.5621:

suffish.4150:

because it is an elite skill with a long cool down.

It´s a 50sec cd on your f5 with alacrity

Ithilwen.1529:

Moa is blockable, dodgeable and has a ridiculously long cast that can be interrupted. This is a learn to play issue.

Not all classes have blocks or stunbreaks. It is not dodgeable from sword3/shield 5 cc combo.

all classes have stunbreaks .

could you pathetic liars at least try a bit harder rather than posting something like this ?

Krysard.1364:

Vex.9437:

i love how people say that moa is blockable, dodgeable and has a ridiculously long cast and you can t see the mesmer casting that because of the visual spamfest.

Basically this. Even if moa has questionable problems by itself, the thing that really annoys me is that you can succesfully cast it with 0 set up cause of the clusterfights

so fixing the spamfest

by your logic other powerful skills are much harder to see since many have less than 1 s casting time like engi gyro , ranger S&R necro chill lol and passive procs
so why picking up moa srsly ?

you guys again and again ,learn to read mes skill tooltips before you ever post on forum complaining about mes skills .
thanks.

pathetic post again btw

@Fay.2357 thanks for the info , i wished butguess i will stay away from korean mmo as usual .

Lexander.4579:

if i stopped playing mesmer i would feel good too, playing this broken class every day would make me feel dirty

you are worse than dirty you know , so at least its improvement for you . enjoy

well since you guys are talking about the true “meta” game for mes now

anyone played BDO ?how about the actual combo and fight with player and AI .

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Rotating defensive skills coupled with stealthing are the only major issues I have with the class and a big part of why they’re my most hated match up. Nothing more frustrating than feeling like your opponent is either blocking, evading, reflecting, invulnerable or invisible 75% of the time you spend fighting them. It might not be the exact case, but that’s definitely how it feels.

Can’t say I think the class deserves any nerfs but I’d be lying if I said I didn’t wish they deserved some… They’re still as plentiful and trolly as ever in WvW.

EDIT: Also this just occurred to me; Mesmer is the class that hates to let you do anything, lol. That’s why a lot of people, myself especially, hate to fight them. They don’t like you to attack them with high access to Confusion. They don’t like you to move with easy access to Torment. They don’t like you to range them with high access to reflects. They don’t like you to physically hit them with some strong invulnerability skills. They don’t like you to try to attack them with insta-CC’s and they definitely don’t like you to be anything other than a defenseless Moa. What are you left with? Pray to Grenth they’re bad.

THE FAMOUS 6/6/6/6/6/6/6 MES BUILD you were against is op i think . so please nerf human logic and sanity .and dont worry ,you have none of those things in your brain .

guys at least , trying not to sound like an entire noob isnt that hard .
Also wiki is hardy for your complaints http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mesmer
at least you will know little more about mes than whatever in your brain .

wiki cant fix other problem like lying or being pathetic .

Yasi.9065:

It doesnt matter if that build is condi or power shatter. The ability to 3-shatter twice makes for insane burst dmg, be it condi or power. And that made possible by a weapon that increases defensive skill amount largely..

Let me say this ,the so called shatter twice ability is from F5 skill for chrono.(only if you ignore the fact mes need clone generation for shatter being useful)

and you were saying that made possible by shield .

then you claimed that you played mes .

I can call you PATHETIC?LIAR now.
so shut up in every thread about mes before you actually read the mes skill tooltips .
but read is too hard i guess.

Fay.2357:

This thread exemplifies the history of Mesmer in GW2:

1. Mesmer is not meta in competitive play
2. Mesmer has builds that steamroll bad players
3. Bad players get steamrolled and come to the forums to whine about it
4. Mesmer gets nerfed again
5. Mesmer goes from not meta to garbage in competitive play

Here’s to hoping Anet ignores the baddies and doesn’t execute point 4.

well you are too reasonable for the forum , you know that right ?

people in this pathetic thread directly asked why mes is still “viable” in current meta when played by far better player with full team work around since mes got heavy nerf times since hot .they answered themselves : mes must get massive nerf again since it seems viable .

At this point so few mes are actually playing .so they entirely skipped your first 3 points ,what left in their unreasonable mind is pure hate for god knows reason .

and btw balance team leader is Karl who made those +30% damage balance giving to ele ofc lol

pico.6402:

For me it’s like people think that after last nerfs mes should not be in meta and after last changes on metabattle they start to attack mes for our trick skills like moa. They have no idea how much we need to adapt/predict/think when we play to use our tricks in the right moment.
I don’t know why people don’t get it that mes is class that is made to be anoying.

At this point , i think mes is more annoying to mes player than mes opponents .

People just dont believe the simple fact playing mes (beside the PU period and chronobunk meta) takes skills , if not most .

And anet ofc is crater to that kind of players .and players affect the game balance.its a loop . so i have no faith on gw2 balance at all as long as karl is in charge and they dont have a full time balance team who actually test and play game themselves .

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

musu.9205:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

musu.9205:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

messiah.1908:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

musu.9205:

SkyShroud.2865:

Alphabet.7392:

SkyShroud.2865:

if it can be counter play, it isnt broken, isnt it?

something with counterplay can still be broken my friend

what does that even mean? that doesnt make much logical sense.

To be honest something with counterplay but only few counterplay or being high reward low effort ,or too hard to counter but too easy to pull , that thing can be broken .

But back to topic , moa itself has many counterplays , also harder to pull off on a mes (on an engi it could be far easier ),you can counter it easily with all classes .
So It is powerful but balanced.

then we have double moa :think about this one ,now if a necro can consume his lifeforce then use his elite lich form, cast 1 s skill in lich form , and then call target for your team to focus fire,and that necro finally kill some tank build .
and btw mes double moa is harder to pull off than the example i made above since illusion dies to random hit in team fight so easily .

Be fair, compare any other elite to Moa and tell me it’s in line with other elites? The other elite too you can counter (a lot easier most of the time) and their effect is FAR less important on most any battle. Heck, when you Moa a tornado or a Lich you not only counter that elite you also turn the table on the poor guy who also invested his elite. An other professions can’t double elite even if weaker.

perma stealth engi who can get heal as you can see him using his heal. and also res etc.. OP and basicaly save the engi in this meta

mesmer theme is to control ppl . moa control you. dont fight as moa just run away to LOS. so many places in pvp maps which save you if you just LOS.

believe me TIMEWARP is much OP than moa (with good group) as it control larger area and you are slow with the whole team and you can doable it (20 sec). fact is not many use it atm so they dont scream OP (yet)

I do not deny other elite can be powerful and useful but none has as profound an impact on a player and a team as Moa does most of the time.

If you face a foe you identify to be the pillar of the team all you have to do is Moa that pillar for the team to crumble. And you get to have 2 shots at it him… Yes time warp is very powerful (and still a mesmer elite btw), but at least other players are not utterly powerless in front of it and can escape the zone and still retain their skills.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Humility?

people got panic in moa form .this sentence i think has been told from day one .
anybody here remember that long evading dash moa 5 is ,and how useless moa was with it ?

sometimes i do have pride for playing mes in gw2 since we ctually have to read the skills and learn tricks ,felt same way about engi ,but sadly so many passive traits made engi feel cheaper .

Calm down a bit and please stop trying too hard painting others as ignorant. I didn’t forgot anything at all. I’m playing that game from the first days of GW1 including a mesmer.

You seem to forget that you aren’t alone in pvp. If the mesmer is alone, Moa isn’t too bad at all. Heck, I’ve killed my fair share of mesmers while Moaed. However, add just one other player and you better pray because even that 5 sec dash won’t save you in most case from that 10 sec condition if you are facing an organized team.

well forum ate my post so i have make it shorter this time .

first : in moa form ,you can escape .and most of your traits do work as usual .and lets be honest ,auto condi cleanse traits are given like candies after hot .only mes ,druid and thief cant have them now ,and we dont cast moa on a thief , no need to say why here since you claim that you played mes from day one .

About druid tho ,yes they will have almost zero condi cleanse in moa form .

second :focus fire is needed to kill certain build in moa form .its called team work .you cant nerf team work you know that ,right ?

if its really that hard to read in team fight , i think anything from moa skill itself cant help but we need a clearer battle field in pvp as a whole balance QOL.
Its not moas problem , so dont fix something that isnt broken especial when other classes have literally instantly casting heal or cc .

Or let me give you another idea , how about we remove moa entirely and then make mes on par with other classes in all game mode .

i wont mind that at all .since i always consider using moa in 1v1 is a kitteneating .some skill that would be taken into mesmer shatter rotation will be best.

Straw men, straw men everywhere…

Where did I said I wanted, or even implied, that I would want to nerf team work? I merely said COMPARED to the other elites, it IS much stronger and that with a team on TS that skill is monstrously efficient. Much more than the other elites.

Also, you speak to me as if I was in favor of a mesmer nerf. I clearly said I was not in this very thread. I merely pointed ONE elite skill. BTW, I would totally be in favor of Mesmer getting something in return if they ever nerf that skill. I’m not anti mesmer. I just don’t like lying.

Lets make this clear

moa is strong itself ,but only seems be best elite when using it with team work while mes makes much more effort comparing to other elite skills which are usually straight forward .

its simply different than other elites in a way .just like mes ,but yes this makes it harder to balance especial combined with other unique stuff mes does
but let us check the reality:
in 1v1 it wont kill many builds with current mes viable build .So the strength of it only really lie on team fight which isnt true for most elites (btw i would say war banner is on par with moa too but far easier to use ,but less flexible )beside engi stealth gyro that op mess lol can be used in all situation without much drawback .
some non elites skills do things like this too : like S&R from ranger , mes portal ,

the real question is "Does gw2 need skill like this for more teamplay but really powerful when pull off "

for me the answer is YES

And all issue you mentioned so far :
double moa: laughable
cant see moa coming in team fight : it has more to do with current animation and effects from other skills in pvp . nothing to do with moa itself since it has clear casting animation and long casting time .
cant escape from mes +his teammater : moa skill 2 + 5 and your dodges and your traits .two mesmers with meta build really cant chain stun on you to prevent you escaping .So if mes + some other classes chain CC on you in moa form . should it be better to look into other classes than moa ?

Btw partly more people got annoying by moa is the fact hot introduced the more power creep into the game .

Now , if you are in 10s moa form ,others could do much more damage and cc and condition on you than before HOT .

So nerf other classes damage and cc application first , then see if how moa remains .

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

musu.9205:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

messiah.1908:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

musu.9205:

SkyShroud.2865:

Alphabet.7392:

SkyShroud.2865:

if it can be counter play, it isnt broken, isnt it?

something with counterplay can still be broken my friend

what does that even mean? that doesnt make much logical sense.

To be honest something with counterplay but only few counterplay or being high reward low effort ,or too hard to counter but too easy to pull , that thing can be broken .

But back to topic , moa itself has many counterplays , also harder to pull off on a mes (on an engi it could be far easier ),you can counter it easily with all classes .
So It is powerful but balanced.

then we have double moa :think about this one ,now if a necro can consume his lifeforce then use his elite lich form, cast 1 s skill in lich form , and then call target for your team to focus fire,and that necro finally kill some tank build .
and btw mes double moa is harder to pull off than the example i made above since illusion dies to random hit in team fight so easily .

Be fair, compare any other elite to Moa and tell me it’s in line with other elites? The other elite too you can counter (a lot easier most of the time) and their effect is FAR less important on most any battle. Heck, when you Moa a tornado or a Lich you not only counter that elite you also turn the table on the poor guy who also invested his elite. An other professions can’t double elite even if weaker.

perma stealth engi who can get heal as you can see him using his heal. and also res etc.. OP and basicaly save the engi in this meta

mesmer theme is to control ppl . moa control you. dont fight as moa just run away to LOS. so many places in pvp maps which save you if you just LOS.

believe me TIMEWARP is much OP than moa (with good group) as it control larger area and you are slow with the whole team and you can doable it (20 sec). fact is not many use it atm so they dont scream OP (yet)

I do not deny other elite can be powerful and useful but none has as profound an impact on a player and a team as Moa does most of the time.

If you face a foe you identify to be the pillar of the team all you have to do is Moa that pillar for the team to crumble. And you get to have 2 shots at it him… Yes time warp is very powerful (and still a mesmer elite btw), but at least other players are not utterly powerless in front of it and can escape the zone and still retain their skills.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Humility?

people got panic in moa form .this sentence i think has been told from day one .
anybody here remember that long evading dash moa 5 is ,and how useless moa was with it ?

sometimes i do have pride for playing mes in gw2 since we ctually have to read the skills and learn tricks ,felt same way about engi ,but sadly so many passive traits made engi feel cheaper .

Calm down a bit and please stop trying too hard painting others as ignorant. I didn’t forgot anything at all. I’m playing that game from the first days of GW1 including a mesmer.

You seem to forget that you aren’t alone in pvp. If the mesmer is alone, Moa isn’t too bad at all. Heck, I’ve killed my fair share of mesmers while Moaed. However, add just one other player and you better pray because even that 5 sec dash won’t save you in most case from that 10 sec condition if you are facing an organized team.

well forum ate my post so i have make it shorter this time .

first : in moa form ,you can escape .and most of your traits do work as usual .and lets be honest ,auto condi cleanse traits are given like candies after hot .only mes ,druid and thief cant have them now ,and we dont cast moa on a thief , no need to say why here since you claim that you played mes from day one .

About druid tho ,yes they will have almost zero condi cleanse in moa form .

second :focus fire is needed to kill certain build in moa form .its called team work .you cant nerf team work you know that ,right ?

if its really that hard to read in team fight , i think anything from moa skill itself cant help but we need a clearer battle field in pvp as a whole balance QOL.
Its not moas problem , so dont fix something that isnt broken especial when other classes have literally instantly casting heal or cc .

Or let me give you another idea , how about we remove moa entirely and then make mes on par with other classes in all game mode .

i wont mind that at all .since i always consider using moa in 1v1 is a kitteneating .some skill that would be taken into mesmer shatter rotation will be best.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

musu.9205:

SkyShroud.2865:

Alphabet.7392:

SkyShroud.2865:

if it can be counter play, it isnt broken, isnt it?

something with counterplay can still be broken my friend

what does that even mean? that doesnt make much logical sense.

To be honest something with counterplay but only few counterplay or being high reward low effort ,or too hard to counter but too easy to pull , that thing can be broken .

But back to topic , moa itself has many counterplays , also harder to pull off on a mes (on an engi it could be far easier ),you can counter it easily with all classes .
So It is powerful but balanced.

then we have double moa :think about this one ,now if a necro can consume his lifeforce then use his elite lich form, cast 1 s skill in lich form , and then call target for your team to focus fire,and that necro finally kill some tank build .
and btw mes double moa is harder to pull off than the example i made above since illusion dies to random hit in team fight so easily .

Be fair, compare any other elite to Moa and tell me it’s in line with other elites? The other elite too you can counter (a lot easier most of the time) and their effect is FAR less important on most any battle. Heck, when you Moa a tornado or a Lich you not only counter that elite you also turn the table on the poor guy who also invested his elite. And other professions can’t double elite even if they are weaker.

No you dont get it , i didnt compare them , i gave that example (necro actually doesnt need consume the lifeforce to get lichform but mes has to shatter to use f5)
to say DOUBLE MOA TOOK EFFORT TO PULL OF FOR AN ACTUAL KILL WITH MANY SETUP AND ANY OTHER CLASSES ELITES DONT NEED THAT TO WORK AT FIRST PLACE .

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

messiah.1908:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

musu.9205:

SkyShroud.2865:

Alphabet.7392:

SkyShroud.2865:

if it can be counter play, it isnt broken, isnt it?

something with counterplay can still be broken my friend

what does that even mean? that doesnt make much logical sense.

To be honest something with counterplay but only few counterplay or being high reward low effort ,or too hard to counter but too easy to pull , that thing can be broken .

But back to topic , moa itself has many counterplays , also harder to pull off on a mes (on an engi it could be far easier ),you can counter it easily with all classes .
So It is powerful but balanced.

then we have double moa :think about this one ,now if a necro can consume his lifeforce then use his elite lich form, cast 1 s skill in lich form , and then call target for your team to focus fire,and that necro finally kill some tank build .
and btw mes double moa is harder to pull off than the example i made above since illusion dies to random hit in team fight so easily .

Be fair, compare any other elite to Moa and tell me it’s in line with other elites? The other elite too you can counter (a lot easier most of the time) and their effect is FAR less important on most any battle. Heck, when you Moa a tornado or a Lich you not only counter that elite you also turn the table on the poor guy who also invested his elite. An other professions can’t double elite even if weaker.

perma stealth engi who can get heal as you can see him using his heal. and also res etc.. OP and basicaly save the engi in this meta

mesmer theme is to control ppl . moa control you. dont fight as moa just run away to LOS. so many places in pvp maps which save you if you just LOS.

believe me TIMEWARP is much OP than moa (with good group) as it control larger area and you are slow with the whole team and you can doable it (20 sec). fact is not many use it atm so they dont scream OP (yet)

I do not deny other elite can be powerful and useful but none has as profound an impact on a player and a team as Moa does most of the time.

If you face a foe you identify to be the pillar of the team all you have to do is Moa that pillar for the team to crumble. And you get to have 2 shots at it him… Yes time warp is very powerful (and still a mesmer elite btw), but at least other players are not utterly powerless in front of it and can escape the zone and still retain their skills.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Humility?

people got panic in moa form .this sentence i think has been told from day one .
anybody here remember that long evading dash moa 5 is ,and how useless moa was with it ?

sometimes i do have pride for playing mes in gw2 since we ctually have to read the skills and learn tricks ,felt same way about engi ,but sadly so many passive traits made engi feel cheaper .

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

musu.9205:

pathetic thread .

and condi spam LoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooL

mesmers have and only have condi burst ,the sustain condi pressure is lower than most condi specs in this game currently .

guys to be honest , if you could play shatter mes or condi shatter mes (later is easier )at decent level (not troll with new comers ), stream it .

Also lets face the fact saying stealth double MOA in a tream fight is broken, is like saying the focus fire with two long elite skills and many setups is broken .follow your guys logic , we must nerf focus fire and elite skills spam ,so lets make a rule only one guy in team fight could use elite otherwise anet must be exploded , is this right ?

I agree that the thread is too much but there is legitimacy in pointing the Moa.

It is easily the strongest elite in the game and you absolutely don’t need stealth to land it against most professions since it is not very obvious to see when mesmer does it unless you really stare at him hard. Specially in the chaos of battle. And the duration…
You basically remove all of a players skills from him for what seems like an eternity. No more stun breaks, no more condi cleanse. If the mesmer is on TS with others it’s a death sentence that he can apply twice. It completely wins fight without much you can do about it. We are FAR from most other elites. Very far.

Try to play mes , then you will find out its really not that way .

first of all as you mentioned its in chaos of battle ,so the safest way to double moa with f5 is hitting f5 when casting moa(unless you have magic to keep illusion alive ) ,not hard i can say .but in practical fight , it means you cant use false cast trick at all which is another reason ppl rage about moa .
and mao is not a quick spell so mes has to be really close to you even in a team fight ,otherwise dodging it is so easy ,or it could hit wrong target which will be a waste in most cases .

THEN YOU CAN SEE A MES STAND BESIDE YOU CASTING 1 s LONG SPELL AND ALSO HALFWAY GLOWING DUE TO F5 SHATTER

now tell me ,would you like to think its something dangerous you should avoid ?

As for other situations , i think from this extreme example , you can see how much effort mes has to make to pull off a moa kill .

“You basically remove all of a players skills "you actually have 2 dodges ,a evade skill ,a short dash and more stats .ALso one important thing ,most of your traits work in moa form .

So guys , lets face this , i dont even mind nerf moa or change it completely since it can easily be a mess once anet finally gives mes reasonable buff .

But nerf one of a few useful skill mes actually brings to the pvp team for the complaints from people who has little understanding of this game and mes class .
NO WAY

SkyShroud.2865:

Alphabet.7392:

SkyShroud.2865:

if it can be counter play, it isnt broken, isnt it?

something with counterplay can still be broken my friend

what does that even mean? that doesnt make much logical sense.

To be honest something with counterplay but only few counterplay or being high reward low effort ,or too hard to counter but too easy to pull , that thing can be broken .

But back to topic , moa itself has many counterplays , also harder to pull off on a mes (on an engi it could be far easier ),you can counter it easily with all classes .
So It is powerful but balanced.

then we have double moa :think about this one ,now if a necro can consume his lifeforce then use his elite lich form, cast 1 s skill in lich form , and then call target for your team to focus fire,and that necro finally kill some tank build .
and btw mes double moa is harder to pull off than the example i made above since illusion dies to random hit in team fight so easily .

So since you guys ignore the setup and teamplay for a moa kill
we should simply remove current pvp mode ,and play 1v1 also no skill rotation is allowed

play it like some card games :
war 100blade :1000 damage VS mesmer mind wrack :800 damage
war wins !

guess its the game you guys enjoy since any more tricks or setups are beyond your understanding

pathetic thread .

and condi spam LoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooL

mesmers have and only have condi burst ,the sustain condi pressure is lower than most condi specs in this game currently .

guys to be honest , if you could play shatter mes or condi shatter mes (later is easier )at decent level (not troll with new comers ), stream it .

Also lets face the fact saying stealth double MOA in a tream fight is broken, is like saying the focus fire with two long elite skills and many setups is broken .follow your guys logic , we must nerf focus fire and elite skills spam ,so lets make a rule only one guy in team fight could use elite otherwise anet must be exploded , is this right ?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Mesmer-needs-a-massive-nerf

I’m playing fallout4 now, seems wise for me to move on

those peoples’ main are ele , thief ,and necro .

To be honest since mes is my main to begin with I dont feel its much harder to play .if you played game like starcraft etc you will have much easier time with mes .but i guess gw2 as a whole is below mes’s skill floor. After almost 4 years ,necro could complain about F3 daze chain (in necro forum tho), ele could say mes condi spam lol

It doesnt need any sense for pvp , just check every trait in this game , as far as i know , mes gets least passive traits . almost zero practical passive trait (after pu nerf , pu was one and most powerful one passive trait tho for a period ). and by the least i meant far less than other classes . mes doesnt even have all CDR traits standardized to 20% CDR

math is hard .

DeceiverX.8361:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Also, “fantastic and frequent burst”. Like, who cares about burst damage?
Even if we’re talking about burst damage, nothing comes anywhere close to gunflame warrior.

The entirety of the PvP and WvW communities do. Sustained DPS means absolutely nothing in these formats. Either you facetank and attrition or you hit like a truck in kill-or-be-killed. The celestual amulet was only good on (some) classes in sPvP because it had almost 40% more stats on it than it should have, and boon spamming and defensive traits accounted for the losses on a few builds, keeping up durability to bunker-build levels and enough damage to beat out heals and evades which normal bunkers couldn’t do.

Mesmers have the best burst per time in the game of all classes off an MR combo. Period. Gunflame does around 2/3 of the damage of a proper MR alone. A whole GS/blink combo does around double the damage. It’s funny, because stage 3 Killshot does more damage than GF. GF is just more accessible so it seems more OP than other skills. Claiming GF burst is the best in the game is both ignorant and wrong.

The only class with comparable burst damage capability in such a period of time is the thief, but to do so you need to run D/D signet backstab, which is widely considered as the worst and least-viable synergy-built build in the entire game.

Yea, in PvE burst doesn’t mean much, but maybe, just maybe, it isn’t the mesmer’s goal to be killing hordes of trash mobs in PvE. The entire class is built around confounding enemies and annihilating an individual target, unless you’d like to declare shatters aren’t meant to burst a single target nor provide defensive bonuses.

And so, the mesmer got alacrity, instead, to justify use in PvE, because the party-wide DPS it gives makes any argument about personal DPS insubstantial. The entire speed-clear (which is what the arbitrary berserker meta came from) scene was about group-damage augmentation. Rangers were taken in these groups despite previously offering the worst personal DPS in the game (yup, lower than mesmer) due to Frost Spirit and Spotter providing substantial party-wide gains which overshadowed their poor personal DPS.

The only fair way to bolster the mesmer’s personal DPS potential would be an elite spec that just straight-up removes shatters. But frankly, this will/should never be used and design-wise is a horrible idea, because unless selfish classes like the thief would gain massive group support roles, and the mesmer’s personal DPS would top the charts, the combination would best be served for thief as DPS and mesmer as alacrity, otherwise one class under-performs at its own roles, and either one is nerfed into not being an optimal composition, or one is buffed into being superior at one of those roles, just changing the scene and not improving the gameplay. Simply, the dynamic doesn’t actually allow for diversity, but rather shoves the same problems to other classes.

To create an optimal PvE composition and subsequently make content around these types of compositions, there requires more and more power creep. This drives a lot of players away as we’ve seen with HoT and is one of the biggest if not the biggest complaint about the expansion.

btw mes burst build is not pve dps build , simple concept so no buffing burst king -mes sustain damage wont result the dps king in any way . but you failed to understand it . you are just arguing for sake of arguing .

DeceiverX.8361:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Also, “fantastic and frequent burst”. Like, who cares about burst damage?
Even if we’re talking about burst damage, nothing comes anywhere close to gunflame warrior.

The entirety of the PvP and WvW communities do. Sustained DPS means absolutely nothing in these formats. Either you facetank and attrition or you hit like a truck in kill-or-be-killed. The celestual amulet was only good on (some) classes in sPvP because it had almost 40% more stats on it than it should have, and boon spamming and defensive traits accounted for the losses on a few builds, keeping up durability to bunker-build levels and enough damage to beat out heals and evades which normal bunkers couldn’t do.

Mesmers have the best burst per time in the game of all classes off an MR combo. Period. Gunflame does around 2/3 of the damage of a proper MR alone. A whole GS/blink combo does around double the damage. It’s funny, because stage 3 Killshot does more damage than GF. GF is just more accessible so it seems more OP than other skills. Claiming GF burst is the best in the game is both ignorant and wrong.

The only class with comparable burst damage capability in such a period of time is the thief, but to do so you need to run D/D signet backstab, which is widely considered as the worst and least-viable synergy-built build in the entire game.

Yea, in PvE burst doesn’t mean much, but maybe, just maybe, it isn’t the mesmer’s goal to be killing hordes of trash mobs in PvE. The entire class is built around confounding enemies and annihilating an individual target, unless you’d like to declare shatters aren’t meant to burst a single target nor provide defensive bonuses.

And so, the mesmer got alacrity, instead, to justify use in PvE, because the party-wide DPS it gives makes any argument about personal DPS insubstantial. The entire speed-clear (which is what the arbitrary berserker meta came from) scene was about group-damage augmentation. Rangers were taken in these groups despite previously offering the worst personal DPS in the game (yup, lower than mesmer) due to Frost Spirit and Spotter providing substantial party-wide gains which overshadowed their poor personal DPS.

The only fair way to bolster the mesmer’s personal DPS potential would be an elite spec that just straight-up removes shatters. But frankly, this will/should never be used and design-wise is a horrible idea, because unless selfish classes like the thief would gain massive group support roles, and the mesmer’s personal DPS would top the charts, the combination would best be served for thief as DPS and mesmer as alacrity, otherwise one class under-performs at its own roles, and either one is nerfed into not being an optimal composition, or one is buffed into being superior at one of those roles, just changing the scene and not improving the gameplay. Simply, the dynamic doesn’t actually allow for diversity, but rather shoves the same problems to other classes.

To create an optimal PvE composition and subsequently make content around these types of compositions, there requires more and more power creep. This drives a lot of players away as we’ve seen with HoT and is one of the biggest if not the biggest complaint about the expansion.

with so called best burst damage , mes still cant kill equal skill tempest , repear scrapper , thief /DD , rev and druid due to lacking of sustain damage while other does less burst (actually some does same in reality since mes combo in high end pvp is far harder to pull off almost impossible without stealth,but whatever i will give this best burst ),but far better sustain .ITs not hard to check , log on a rev or thief or ele or necro or anything else , swing your melee weapon on golem, and log on mes , swing your melee weapon also summon izerker , and see how pathetic the mes sustain damage is even with one izerker alive (lets ignore the surviblity problem of illusion also ignore the longer set up time .)

btw im pretty sure op was asking about pve content , can you have some common sense before you say mes damage is fine .
idk why ppl could lie like this i meant seriously , mes is hardest class for lvling and doing worst dps u can not really argue with this .it is not us asking for a power creep level damage buff plz , its us as the lowest dps class asking a reasonable buff on sustain damage .

“Yea, in PvE burst doesn’t mean much, but maybe, just maybe, it isn’t the mesmer’s goal to be killing hordes of trash mobs in PvE. The entire class is built around confounding enemies and annihilating an individual target, unless you’d like to declare shatters aren’t meant to burst a single target nor provide defensive bonuses.”

“The entire class is built around confounding enemies and annihilating an individual target—— so as this nonsense talk goes , thief should do poor damage since they should go stealth ! when we are talking about the game balance and actual game play , u suddenly dropped the class concept ?whats your logic ?

”But frankly, this will/should never be used and design-wise is a horrible idea, because unless selfish classes like the thief would gain massive group support roles, and the mesmer’s personal DPS would top the chart“

before HOT thief did have group support ,plz group wise stealth and aoe blind , also cc on demand . you know before hot thief was in most pve dungeon and fractal speed run right ?

and again there is difference between asking for a reasonable sustain damage and asking for buff in order to be dps king . can you read , or you dont understand how worse it is for a mes ?

“the mesmer’s personal DPS would top the chart“ math doesnt agree with you .

SnR does need a nerf .it didnt carry druid to a godmode in pvp that doesnt change a fact its a broken skill .
also with thief AA , its a lazy way to fix thief in pve .and bad design trend.but well u guys like those things .so fine ,not like im playing anyway ,

Azukas.1426:

Fay.2357:

Azukas.1426:

Levetty.1279:

Azukas.1426:

So I guess the “sky is falling” crowd are eating crow?

Yes, one bad Mesmer build that didn’t achieve much proves that Mesmer is fine in all game modes and isn’t suffering from severe design problems.

This is where I roll my eyes so you can really get the sarcasm.

This is where you realize Guardian, Thief, and Warrior didn’t even get looked at. This is also where you realize the discrepancy in team skill completely nullified any conclusions of that mesmers actual ceiling of contribution to a match.

Thank you for the input though

This is where you realize that mesmer is mechanically inferior and got dumpstered in those matches regardless of team organization, but was in the comp purely because of being able to use a single utility.

Its been broken down. Starting to think you are an alternative account for ithiliwen

Somewhere else i read u said new wop is fine , i really want to see you use that aegis now .nothing personal.

as for mechanically inferior its a simple fact ,just take a look at mes sustain damage (oh mes does burst , so other class does that too but with far higher sustain),not to mention it relies heavily on illusions which die to one cleave in pvp.

look at staff and torch CDR traits , u cant argue with those solid number when comparing those with other classses CDR trait .

look at our condi build ,it has the least passive proc well which is good thing but think of its damage and think of engi IP or necro chill just lol .

IOL, make your life like illusion !

nullfield and at cd lol

staff projectiles speed

swap

and TW VS feel my wrath

sigils and runes mostly have no affect on illusion when they are our main damage source .

being slowest class in game for 3 years was fun ?they fixed it with chrono line so ok no complain here .

when perp rune was op in wvw , you know who used it best , engi , not mes , even tho confusion was our theme condi .

mes has strong utilities , yes .but any other classes do have their own way to support team in many cases they even do better and deal higher damage with better survivability .

before you say its coz game got power creep, anet should have nerfed others and mes is fine blalala. those situation exists before HOT. and hence why you didnt see much mes play in 3 years for serious high end pvp comparing with other class.(necro was close to this too but they did get actual buff over years .)for mes it was one step forward two steps backward .nothing was new .

when i played CI , a interrupt build and killing people ,everyone else was like omg mes has so many cc (some even cried so called instantly cc). and funny thing was most power builds had more cc than mes with shorter cd unless you count offhand sword daze as a thing lol before HOT.

mes had burst potential on par with other classes before HOT if not better in some ways . it still has burst if we dont remember mirror blade nerf , illusion line nerf and dom line random nerf. but well mes still does burst but lacking of sustain damage or survivability the burst damage didnt work out well for mes .

Chokolata.1870:

I really do not think that mesmer is in a bad spot as because it lacks X Y or Z. Simply the some of the other classes are too strong at the moment. And it has been said time and time again that now we need shaves and not power creep.

So:
- nerf chill damage and/or application for Reaper
- reduce Bristle F2 damage
- shave Shiro a bit, perhaps the on dodge endurance gain from 50 to 25-30
- reduce scrapper hammer damage coefficients a bit and tone down survivability a bit

Take it from there and see what happens.

mesmer does need some rework tho(not direct buff but still since before hot , mes wasnt that good ) , WoP doesnt see use in all game modes now ,they should have increase its cd or give it something else rather than this (things like daze foes if foes use skill standing on it ,or each pulse reduce the condi duration by 20% with shorter cd ,things like those also fit the name of this skill).

And i played CI double range mes heavily before spec patch , i can easily tell even with the shield (better cc access ) ,lockdown mes build is worse than before partly due to relative power of other classes have increased(the stability spam) .partly due to new traits .

not to mention our torch and staff CDR trait , i prefer a standard 20% CDR now since anet couldnt balance those things and current versions are worse than all other classes.

and CD on many mes skills are nonsense long along with the nonsense nerf to chaos armor.

im fine with mes being a hard class to play ,but lets face the fact that the reason behind all QQ and heavy nerf was partly due to mes is a noob stomp class. And yes anet did give mes unfair treatment for a long time if not most unfair .and there is less than you think to do with actual balance .

Varezenem.2813:

musu.9205:

I think it’s actually a good thing :one class is good at certain role ,now if only anet could give ele more roles which will be better also make other classes(like war ,guard ,mes) good at something else with the clear weakness unlike rev

Rev is weak to condition damage and unlockable skills. In particular reapers.

I am aware of this , but current rev is really close to a class without CLEAR weakness ,and i didnt want to discuss much about rev balance since its not all i want to say .

BTW “weak to condition damage " on rev is acually “killable to condition damage”.Its not even countered by other classes condi builds .back then before cleanse ire ,war was weak to condition . this is an example of what is a clear weakness .

Its just power creep that anet has thrown condi applications and removals like candy .

Hammerguard.9834:

Alekt.5803:

Kayberz.5346:

Lol at all the bad ele players
“ohmugerd anet might as well delete ele! We’re trash tier without the 40% extra stat cele amulet to carry us, ele wont be run at all now!”

Yeah…..ok….

You don’t understand. D/F auramancer is elementalist in its most alienated state. It’s only a heal bot that keeps alive stronger classes. This has been known already; and it’s not the role true elementalist player wish to have.

This. It’s not about the strength of the class but a role a team needed to round out their comp while other professions would just add redundancy.

And btw the so called healbot actually takes advantage of full build ,It is not like thief decap role pre HOT which is only used due to shortbow 5.

reasonable rework for ele is needed , but what u meant is more like some design flaws on ele class rather than being bad in current meta .

Hammerguard.9834:

Alekt.5803:

Kayberz.5346:

Lol at all the bad ele players
“ohmugerd anet might as well delete ele! We’re trash tier without the 40% extra stat cele amulet to carry us, ele wont be run at all now!”

Yeah…..ok….

You don’t understand. D/F auramancer is elementalist in its most alienated state. It’s only a heal bot that keeps alive stronger classes. This has been known already; and it’s not the role true elementalist player wish to have.

This. It’s not about the strength of the class but a role a team needed to round out their comp while other professions would just add redundancy.

So ele got a clear role which is not what you want to play as i see ,but ele does outclass every other classes on this specific role(it is the strength of the class no matter what word you try to use) .

I think it’s actually a good thing :one class is good at certain role ,now if only anet could give ele more roles which will be better also make other classes(like war ,guard ,mes) good at something else with the clear weakness unlike rev or scrapper (reaper’s problem is low risk/ high reward and overall power creep) .

but for the balance ,ele is more than fine now ,if anet is going to nerf rev ,necro and engi in a reasonable way ,they Do need to look at current ele build as well .

ArthurDent.9538:

I find it amusing that I find playing rev rougher than reaper, scrapper, druid, daredevil, tempest, and dragon hunter and not all that dangerous to play against yet it still does so well at the top level. I guess the class is just has a higher skill cap then people give it credit for.
The forums also seemed to echo this sentiment as most of the complaining was aimed at reaper, scrapper, and druid. However now that pro leagues have shown rev to still be very strong at top level play, I predict everyone will start crying for rev nerfs and cite these matches as evidence for imbalance rather than judging off of their own experiences.
The same thing happened with dragonhunter in reverse last season. At first it was the most op thing ever conceived according to the forums, then when proleage teams stopped using them, the forums took a 180 degree turn and complained about it being under powered.

so we should balance game around random people’s experience ?

“I guess the class is just has a higher skill cap then people give it credit for."
If higher skill cap comes from one of strongest heal skill ,one of strongest AA, then yes such a higher skill cap .

Supreme.3164:

Kicast.1459:

Ele are full of bad players just used to rule everyone for such a long time.
I understand that they feel weak now.

Eles always ruled because we’re full of far better players as we don’t rely of macroed combos or auto-locks skills on low CD, to beat a baddy using a healbot build never was a problem for anybody still…eles want to play something else than healbot, beating a baddy after a 5m fight it’s not what good players define as balanced gameplay

anyone has anything to say beside LoL ?

Carighan.6758:

Pepsi.8907:

So because others have it worse, it should make what we got alright and we should lower our expectations of the game?
What a kitten logic

No, that’s not what I said at all.

But you demonstrate the problem really well, if unwittingly. People have issues distinguishing more than a binary state of content. Either you’re happy, or WTFANET"§$“§$XC”!X. There’s no in-between.

Yet actually, there’s a lot of granularity to issues in games, or even a lack of issues. If all we do is always yell at the top of our lungs – which we (as in, “we” the players) do – then ANet won’t actually know when something they did is worse than something else, as there’s no way to tell this apart.
Plus, as with most things, they get used to the effect. “Ignore the forums, people will cry anyhow” is a common thing said about games and especially about MMOs, after all.

So yes, changes are bad. But they’re not bad enough to warrant the overdramatization of “gg, delete mesmer” or “mesmer RIP 2016” and so on. That’s pretty pointless, and only serves to … actually, doesn’t really do anything.

or players here could simply check mes history and see if it was out of meta for years .answer is yes .but as long as anet is doing all those stupid knee jerk “balance” .shouting loud or leaving game are actually helping little than thinking positive for no reasons .

Do you consider your idea of "overdramatization " is something else like the past facts?

also what’s bad enough for you ? since that mes is gutted entirely in pvp and also doing pathetic damage in pve ,having little for wvw group rather than veil bot ,all those are not bad enough for u ? how about thieves are hard counter entire mes class for 3.5 years and anet just made it even worse ? how about our illusions always die in aoe spam in pvp and its worse now since power creep and anet refused to fix it ,they were trying to help this with chrono line but heavy nerfed it to ground .

it has been more than 3 years whle mes takes more effort in pvp if not most but get least reward .the only really op specs we had were mantra build after trait patch for like 2 weeks ,bunker mes after hot for 3 months . any other classes have their op time longer than mes.

it’s not bad enough for u get ganked by a thief hopelessly in like 2 secs ? should it be in 1 sec so you can feel the truly ugly reality and how it is different from the "not so bad "patch

we don‘t really need to discuss how stupid this patch is for mesmer (even bad for overall game balance ?look at u ,reaper buff and druid buff )

and can we get someone post on reddit summing up all issue mes has and why this patch sucks , and rant maybe ?

also any good RPG games recently ? going to play something else rather than wasting time on a pointless balance team .

sorry for my poor english

Swish.2463:

Provided that you can get a stronghold map out of match making rng..

I think Mesmers will fair better than they do in conquest but we will have serious completion against thieves who will be covering all the same roles.. I’m not sure how portal or the new specializations will come to play yet but I don’t feel safe to assume Mesmers will find a new strong slot in the meta.

Thieves have easier access to interrupts on shorter or no CD.. also boon ripping and with no nodes they can excel at lone target tanking.

Neither profession is ideal for a minion support or Shepard

And we both lack aoe to defend lanes against huge waves

agree , also for portal due to map size i think we will see teams take more s/x war than mesmer portal . Mesmer really deserve a serious buff or rework before we talk about our role (again not a tiny balance patch for 6 months that dressed nothing)

“The boss might as well put a condition on us, a poison that can’t be cured with usual condition removal, and only players with the skill “cure special poison attack from this boss” can cure other players (not self).”

but if mastery system works like this way , u do realize that’s just a cheapt way to build another hard role with the cost – - -totally wiping out profession skills and traits To add this , you actually remove more stuff from gameplay wise

Abdulaziz.1496:

musu.9205:

Abdulaziz.1496:

Well, that’d be quite OP in pvp.
also, what Mesmers really need is a new MH weapon that doesn’t suck cough scepter.

What I really think is that the specialization for mesmers wil either give them MH pistol “sloves everything IMO” or changes the existing skills for some weapons.

Mesmers are already pretty good at cc and have tons of dazes and almost every weapon have a cc

it’s funny because mes was supposed to be control role , but ele , war , engi
and thief has far more cc than mes could use(all cc mes have are with long cd) . A heavy interrupt CI build requires daze mantra. It’s sad to see after 2 years people still like to spread rumors about mes.

in pve mesmer is better, it takes nothing for a mesmer to remove all 5 stacks of defiance.
3 clones along with mantra and maybe signet if you really want to spec for cc, not to mention the 1 cc you get from weapons “use sword off hand and it’ll have like only 10 secs cd”

Also, please tell me where I went wrong and “spread rumors about mes”

Back to the topic , mesmers have a lot of traits about interruption but anyone wants to play a heavily cc mesmer ,their builds are almost locked with mantra of distraction since mesmer weapon sets don’t have enough cc covering the loss of damage or survival ablilities from picking up those cc traits. That’s the reason pvp mesmer players want a new weapon set with reliable cc and reasonable cd .Don’t need to be engi level , it certainly should be more than ele and wars’.