Life blast self inflicts the effects. :>
Yeah for balance reasons it really does have to be jagged horrors or a new minion tbh. Id prefer some kind of cleaving minion because its a skill which gets it max use when you are dealing with 5 enemies. So ideally you want minions that can help with groups.
Life stealing should be good with Reaper in DS. But yeah the numbers are probably too small for regular necro in DS. Not sure how they can fix that without imbalancing it on Reaper though.
Actually, now that I think about it, he never explicitly said in the stream that all those direct damage abilities scale with power. Just like we have no idea if the condition’s damage will scale with condition damage, we have no idea if the greatsword attacks will scale with power.
All direct damage abilities use coefficients. And due to the way damage is calculated it means they all scale with power.
There is no non scaling damage ingame. Apart from a very small amount of environmental objects. The orb in arah does percentage damage to you. And skritt bottles do a flat 10% of the enemies health (the npc that sells them is disabled because of this).
All skill damage or damage players do scales with either power or condition damage.
Approved and added.
Time is 3:17 according to the PoV’s so thats what I added it as.
Yes. Do also note that weapon traits also effect you while using death shroud as long as you have that weapon equipped. So if you take Dhuumfire with Lingering curse for example, then your Dhuumfire will go from 3 seconds to 6 seconds a hit.
Long time ago I said the same thing about axe trait affecting DS damage while using an axe. I’ve been proven wrong.
If you swapped off of your axe when you entered DS then you wont get the benefit. DS uses the weapon power of your active weapon set. So if you were on dagger when entering DS then the trait wouldnt have worked. You have to be on axe when you enter DS to get the benefit.
They may rework how DS calculates damage though. Giving it a flat weapon power in DS regardless of weapon. Would be a nice fix to be honest. Because then we wouldnt be forced to use two handers or axe with axe training just for max damage in DS.
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Oh it automatically moves you back? I thought he was swapping while using return. to avoid the cooldown. I assumed this because i was under the impression going back and forth is how you make the NPC trigger the path select faster.
Anyway looking at it shadowstep would have been off cooldown by the time he used SR anyway. So I will approve it later tonight if noone has any objections.
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Lets be honest though. The 2 second channel is way too much. It should be around 1 second.
Constant chill isnt likely to be as easy as many people are making it out to be. Its going to require greatsword auto attack spam which means you wont be doing much else. And then the only other sources are RS #5, the elite shout and the chill shout. Those arent really very short cooldowns. And if you dodge the opening chills (first auto attack or those big cooldowns). The reaper is going to have a hard time getting that chill on you.
And this is the thing. Reaper doesnt have as many CC’s or big hits and any they do have are on chill attacks. So you can save your avoidance for the chill attacks and then control the fight from there.
I think they’ve designed the chill sources quite well. Theres definitely the chance to snowball from a good chill application early on. But its going to be hard to do that consistantly in sPvP. Perma chill only really seems reliably feesable in PvE. Which is fair.
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Before I approve this is anyone going to have a problem with the shadow return > SR abuse at the start of the thief PoV?
Also you guys lost some time on Wahlen by having no burn on him. :>
Approved.
I assume your character name is also Minigrump? And does Java want a different name for his account? Also if you have a guild website I can add that to the guild group.
Dodging on AA is a nice idea, but Vigor and Energy runes only get you so far and if you wasted your dodges on AA you are going to eat the big skills.
Every class except necro has an over abundance of damage avoidance. So its fair. Plus with high mobility you can just walk out of range of the attack. Maybe even just walk normally behind the necro to avoid the hit.
My point was that those coefficients on the reaper skills are not strong enough compared to what other classes have. Which means the idea that reaper hits slower but harder isnt exactly true.
Are you accounting for attack speed from the trait and the ability to recharge gravedigger on low targets? Repeated 2’s are pretty strong! Also necro will have a trait called Rending Shroud that will be putting up monstrous amounts of vuln. Not to mention the traits that make your auto attack in Reaper Shroud cause vuln and might!
Vuln and might is something that benefits all classes and they all can gain access to. The attack speed trait certainly helps the reaper shroud damage. But with the greatsword skills those are low coefficients. Like i said other classes attack faster and have about equal or higher coefficients. But they also have more damage modifier traits.
I admit this is more of a PvE perspective. Where vuln and might will be maxed. But we have to consider scenarios like that aswell. Currently the coefficients dont really justify the clunky slowness. It only needs very slight tweaks though. Nothing too major. Main one is the final hit of the greatsword auto and maybe gravedigger and nightfall.
I also feel that the first two hits of reaper shroud could be a little stronger. 0.6 coefficients are quite weak for any auto attack on anything. The attack speed is pretty good. But even with that those first 2 hits are a little on the low side. Maybe thats intentional though. To discourage camping RS auto too much.
Were talking about Chilling Force not Reaper’s Might.
Again your ideas are killing the trait. A warrior with forceful greatsword can maintain 25 might on a single target. That ICD per target means Reaper cannot.
Please stop being selfish. You dont want BB nerfed. I dont want Chilling Force nerfed. You could easily just put a cap on BB and make it only proc 3 times per second. Surely that stops it from being broken? But clearly you wont like that because it effects you more personally.
In short. Not everyone is going to use BB when they use Chilling Force. So nerfing Chilling Force when it is fine on its own is completely unfair. If BB is too strong its BB that needs to be limited. Not the trait which is fine as it is. Dont know how many times i can say that.
But your ideas do the opposite. Using ICD’s and caps are worst solutions you could possibly suggest.
A 1 sec ICD per target with a longer might and 1% LF would still be comparable to or better than reaper’s might (depending on duration change, especially, but able to be gotten AOE).
A HIGH cap per 10 seconds does not break anything except keep it from being abused. 20% more LF or 2.6k more healing every 10 seconds (If it maxed at 20x per 10 seconds) would not be bad… And if anything, the lower the cap the more (potential) power they can give it for realistic scenarios if they feel they need it.
If they don’t do anything like this at all, they’re more likely to remove one or the other entirely, and I will be very sad if Blighter’s Boon gets removed…
Making it 1sec ICD means the might duration needs to be atleast 25 seconds to be able to achieve the same max effectiveness. You can clearly see thats broken and boring. Having no ICD means you are forced to use multi hits to stack it up. But its low duration so it falls off as soon as you stop attacking. Theres no way they will make it have a 25 second duration. Which means adding an ICD will always be a major nerf to the trait. Like i said an ICD is a terrible solution to the problem.
And again BB is only strong in ideal unrealistic situations. Its fine as it is. And if it isnt. Then all it needs is a lifeforce change or a healing change. Because if you think about it. If the healing is weak but the lifeforce is strong. It means you wont heal much while in reapers shroud so you wont be able to recover as much even if you can replenish RS really fast.
You dont want BB nerfed just because it might be too strong with another trait. So you want to nerf the other trait. This doesnt make any sense. The problem is BB, not chilling force. It doesnt make sense to butcher a trait which is fine on its own just because of one overly strong synergy. Adjust the problem trait, not the indirect cause…
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#spoj
They are reworking the way condis work for HoT.
Poor blind access? Plague form, well of darkness, etc..
Poor vuln acess? The new specialization will have plenty, also well of suffering.Not every class needs to be the same. We have plenty of classes that bring blast, fire fields and reflect. If it does not fit your playstyle then reroll. Don’t expect them to make changes based on a very specific and niche build like dungeon zerker speed runners. Leave your bubble.
Yes they are finally fixing some of the issues. My point was that they are bad currently. Because you implied necros are fine now. Which isnt true.
Plague and well of darkness have really high cooldowns. And plague prevents you from doing anything else while using it. They are outclassed by what other classes have.
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But your ideas do the opposite. Using ICD’s and caps are worst solutions you could possibly suggest.
#fixforumbug
Honestly let the devs decide if things are too strong. Asking for nerfs now is only asking for us to be over nerfed and continue to have survivability problems in the future. Im sure noone wants that right?
None of the traits look too strong to me in realistic situations. There are plenty of other even stronger traits and skills on other classes that are strong in really common situations. Why are we so desperate to get ourselves nerfed? It doesnt make sense. Weve been in a terrible state for so long. I dont understand why anyone would ask for nerfs at this point. Especially when the devs have stated numbers are subject to change.
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What about those of us that want to play a class because its fun but also like to contribute and be atleast semi useful? This is actually probably the mindset of most players. Theres a minority that only care for efficiency. And theres a minority of people that only care about fun and dont give a crap how bad their builds are. This is about fixing the issue for the middle group. Where people value varying degrees of both sides.
And who said necro is useless? They might not be optimal for speed claering dungeons but is far from been useless. Not optimal =/= useless. They have vulnerability, chils, blinds, aoe condi clear, boon removal, etc. Sure they are not a guardian or ele but they are not useless unless. Condis will also be better on HoT so necro will become a bit better on groups.
Yes its true not optimal =/ useless. But in the case of necro its not optimal and it is almost completely useless. Lack of finishers. Poor blind access. Poor vuln access. Chill has almost no use in PvE currently. Boon removal is useless in PvE. Bad group condi clears. Low damage. Condition damage is bad currently and necro has less condi damage than other classes.
Leave your bubble. There wouldnt be this many people complaining about necro if there wasnt an issue. You are one of the small minority that does not give a crap about relative usefulness so it doesnt matter to you. But it does matter to many others.
I and many others feel guilty about playing necro with friends that dont care about what I bring. And thats because i know how little the class contributes. I feel like a leech when i do it and its off putting. Id rather not feel guilty about playing my favourite class.
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What about those of us that want to play a class because its fun but also like to contribute and be atleast semi useful? This is actually probably the mindset of most players. Theres a minority that only care for efficiency. And theres a minority of people that only care about fun and dont give a crap how bad their builds are. This is about fixing the issue for the middle group. Where people value varying degrees of both sides.
The master trait has a big purpose. Just because you dont personally see it as important doesnt mean it isnt. If the lifeforce of the two traits combined is the problem. Then thats what needs to be addressed. But any global nerf to chilling force will break the trait. I would not mind the life force portion of chilling force to be removed in fairness.
But also remember you are still talking in ideal situations where all foes have to be chilled and you need to cleave. The only time this would be broken is in PvP and WvW. But how likely are all these criteria going to be met? Not very likely. And its not like it makes the class immortal in these situations either.
Doesnt matter that warriors cant hit as much. They still max the might permanently. So the only arguement is the lifeforce generation.
Then again. base GS doesnt have as many hits as reaper shroud. And they might just make chilling force life force portion not work in reaper shroud. They could always tone down death spiral base lifeforce. And i really dont think we should be focusing on ideal unrealistic situations again. Remember all the targets need to be chilled. Thats not going to be too easy in PvP and WvW due to people spreading out and cleansing. In PvE it doesnt really matter.
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Yeah exactly. I would rather not see another weak trait like empowering might.
Reducing health in PvE does nothing to improve the damage. Because the other classes will still have higher coefficients per second. My point was that those coefficients on the reaper skills are not strong enough compared to what other classes have. Which means the idea that reaper hits slower but harder isnt exactly true.
I dont understand half of what you are saying. Seems like you are trolling or have some vendetta against certain playstyles.
That would butcher chilling force just to reduce blighter boon. I cant agree to that at all.
At the moment chilling force does the same as forceful greatsword. But requires perma chill. If you cap that or add an ICD it totally ruins the trait. Warriors can maintain perma 25 might and share it with the group when using phalanx + forceful greatsword. I think we should be able to atleast maintain perma selfish might if we can perma chill (probably wont be as easy as it sounds).
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Assuming you can stay in DS for long enough though. And its a pointless discussion. The concept of the trait is good. If its too strong they will reduce the healing. Problem solved.
I full expect them to act on " leaching it a bit strong right now so we may lower it" and " this number may be a little high" and lower them all.
I would rather that than put ICD’s or a cap on it. Anyway you dont know what will happen. Numbers are subject to change. I think its important just to emphasize that the concept with no ICD or cap should remain as it is.
Assuming you can stay in DS for long enough though. And its a pointless discussion. The concept of the trait is good. If its too strong they will reduce the healing. Problem solved.
I think some of you might be overestimating the sustain even with constant boon application. Especially considering the boon application requires active play. Therefore stunlocking and bursting will still break through this sustain.
Sustain is just sustain. It wont prevent you from dieing if someone tries to focus you. If the sustain is too much then they should just reduce the heal per boon. Adding any sort of cap is a poor way to restrict a traits power.
Yeah its going to be a very strong sustain trait. One we really needed. Wont have much use in most PvE content. But its still a very nice addition.
Well they arent impact style AOE’s so there shouldnt be any damage difference on larger hitboxes. Which is unfortunate. And means staff ele will still outclass everything damage wise by a huge margin.
Ive always wanted an AOE skill called Shadow Storm. Which is basically a copy of frostbow Icestorm but inflicts blind/gives lifeforce on impact and is maybe a dark field.
Only reason i did so is because its just/almost as much out of bounds as the simin skip in arah p4. So if you go by the rules as written then its questionable. Plus people are moaning as usual.
Personally id rather just ban everything until people realise all these restrictions arent making speedruns better. Which means moving half the current records to unrestricted.
snip
Great look at coefficients, they aren’t at all amazing considering how much they talked about high damage. If its super slow it should be dealing high damage on the abilities that aren’t heavy on utility.
Can we get CPC to self apply cripple or chill instead of weakness. This way we use it to setup a short range deaths charge.
Death’s Charge ignores movement slowing.
Yeah i remembered that and deleted the post just as you quoted me. xD
Yeah thats only relevant in PvP though. :P
The greatsword is 170 range aswell.
Edit: Your friend is wrong. The auto attacks are all 170. Only exception is the final chain hit in reapers shroud which is 220. Some of the AOE skills are larger. Soul Spiral is 300. It does more damage than life transfer but Life Transfer is 600 range.
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Necromancers generally never raise skeletons or intact corpses because they respect the dead. Its a lore reason. The only exception is the Sylvari necro in the book (Killeen). But her companions were quite horrified when she did that. And she only did it because she was a young Sylvari and didnt really understand the concept of death and respect for those that have died. Also it was kind of a dire situation they were in.
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Personally i think the scaling per target hit should be staggered. So the base effect is better and for each extra enemy hit it increases. But less each time. That way the shouts arent totally awful on single or two targets. But they arent overpowered on 5 targets either. Staggering might not work on rise. So maybe you could have increased damage on rise as an extra feature and make that stagger.
Also im not a fan of the long cast times and the long cooldowns on a couple of them.
In their current implementation i doubt i will ever use them. Except maybe the heal shout in niche situations.
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Thats why im bringing it up now. They need to consider more than just the base coefficients and cast times/attack speeds. They also need to consider damage modifier traits and cooldowns. The damage is the thing that will decide whether the class improves or not. So its important they get this right.
Actually thinking about it. I think it would be better to just put a new minion type on this skill. Minions that cleave on their attacks? Shambling horrors? Vampiric horrors?
I have moved it to unrestricted for the time being. If we want to create a path specific rule we can move it back.
Its cast time is way too long. If it was group stability then i could understand it.
I already posted this in the dungeon forums. But i thought it might be useful for it be here aswell.
I worked out the damage coefficients of the skills by using the tooltips shown on the stream. You could work out his power by adjusting your ingame power to match the BiP tooltip damage shown on stream. Estimate of power he had was 1950. It was heart of the mists so i assumed exotic greatsword which means a weapon power of 1000. Heres the coefficients i got.
Greatsword
Dusk Strike – 0.861
Fading Twilight – 0.861
Chilling Scythe – 1.013
Gravedigger – 2.027
Death Spiral – 0.912
Nightfall – 0.731
Reaper’s Grasp – 1.013
Reaper’s Shroud
Life Rend – 0.608
Life Slash – 0.608
Life Reap – 1.216
Death’s Charge – 1.013
Soul Spiral – 2.787
Executioner’s Scythe – 1.520, 2.027, 2.533
Other Stuff
Shouts – 0.345
Elite Shout – 1.379
Chilling Nova – 0.137
So yeah the greatsword coefficients arent amazing. Neither are the Reaper shroud ones to be honest. Also take into account that necro has less damage modifier traits than other classes. These probably arent high enough especially as they are quite slow.
Chilling Scythe should be atleast 1.2 coefficient. Guard greatsword has a better auto attack than this currently. Its also faster and gets more modifiers through traits.
Check out the wiki to compare coefficients on other classes. And remember most of them have way more and way better damage modifier traits. So we need high coefficients as base just to be equal.
PS. I understand these might change. Just though it would be useful to give feedback on what sort of numbers we think we should get on a few skills. Some of them i think are fair. Some are a bit lackluster especially considering how slow and clunky many of them are.
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He didnt explicitly confirm. But i would assume its condi damage.
Another cool trick banned? Love you guys. :P
Heres the coefficients i got. It was heart of the mists so i assumed exotic greatsword so weapon power of 1000.
Greatsword
Dusk Strike – 0.861
Fading Twilight – 0.861
Chilling Scythe – 1.013
Gravedigger – 2.027
Death Spiral – 0.912
Nightfall – 0.731
Reaper’s Grasp – 1.013
Reaper’s Shroud
Life Rend – 0.608
Life Slash – 0.608
Life Reap – 1.216
Death’s Charge – 1.013
Soul Spiral – 2.787
Executioner’s Scythe – 1.520, 2.027, 2.533
Other Stuff
Shouts – 0.345
Elite Shout – 1.379
Chilling Nova – 0.137
So yeah the greatsword coefficients arent amazing. Neither are the Reaper shroud ones to be honest. Also take into account that necro has less damage modifier traits than other classes. These probably arent high enough especially as they are quite slow.
Chilling Scythe should be atleast 1.2 coefficient. Guard greatsword has a better auto attack than this currently. Its also faster and gets more modifiers through traits.
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The solo might is something necros have always needed. As a selfish class we should be self sufficient. Warrior gets all that solo might and loads of group buffing. So atleast now we can get solo might. And we have to make a big tradeoff for it. We cant take decimate defences if we take chilling force. So i think its fair. Plus it may not be as easy to maintain chill as it seems now when it goes live.
If they really want to nerf chilling force then they should make it on crit. But the boon duration and no icd should remain as it is. If they change either of those it becomes an over nerf. And if they cap the number of times it can proc in a certain time period its a seriously big restriction. You dont see that kind of restriction with forceful greatsword despite it being able to max stack might for the entire party when coupled with phalanx.
Also numbers wise im going to calc the coefficients now. They showed BiP tool tip so we can work out the power he had in those clips. Assuming he has the same power for all tool tip images and BiP coefficient hasnt been changed we can work out the coefficients. :>
ps. Estimated power he had in the videos is about 1950. I had the same tooltip damage on BiP when i had 1947 power.
Chilling force needs to stay as it is. Its the same as forceful greatsword numbers wise. And it adds a strong solo trait to the necro to increase the necros self sufficient damage. Would be better if they changed siphoned power to a 10% modifier to be honest.
The greatsword isnt bad. I do admit the damage doesnt look as high as it needs to be. But the spam of gravedigger might make it a top weapon. That said i would like the rotation to involve swapping between dagger and greatsword. Because camping greatsword and DS is going to be boring.
Bone fiends. Or bone minions that auto detonate putrid explosion on death. Or create a secondary skill to detonate all bone minions at the same time.
Who am i kidding. They wont give us 5 blasts. x)
Bone fiends please.
You are too fast. I was going to do these tomorrow lol.
Seems fine to me.