Sigil of mischief, chilling darkness and bitter chill with current numbers can potentially stack 20 vuln with every weapon swap. That could be pretty interesting for PvP bursting builds. Maybe roaming in WvW.
Yeah it might be useful with slow and blind on trash pulls with rapid attack rates. But that doesnt mean ele wont be able to do that. Frozen ground and glyph of storms is a lot of chill for a trash mob burst.
Just hope its lots of damage and lots of vuln. Otherwise its no change other than some fun new flavour.
Every chill will inflect 5 vuln stacks right, combine with offhand focus, chill of death, every fear will chill, etc etc, we might have some nice stuff
+ If DS is full melee specced damage might even be awesome aswell
Thats assuming they dont nerf it though. Im really scared of them adding an ICD. They do seem to love them so much after all.
I wonder if necro will have more than 5 enemy-cleave restriction considering their attack will have a huge windup and scale up with the more enemies they cleave. Hmm… hmm…
On the other hand, the pulse rate of blinding utilities is not reliable when mobs have fast attack rate. From the look of the new mobs (i.e. dinosaurs) in the demo, maybe chill (and slow) will be a new form of protection.
yeah, i think enemies are going to have more skills, higher attack speed, more mobility.
focused bursts will probably require breaking the bar first.
essentially, im thinking those things alone will change the meta a decent amount.
I don’t personally care as much about meta as about interesting game play. If it is fun to play, we may be lucky to see a few new solo record here and there, along the line of what Sandy has achieved with his mesmer. We all play the meta for gold, but only fun play will last and inspire. Necro needs that face lift.
Problem is soloing doesnt look like a favourable thing with active defence still not being addressed. Thats always been the barrier which prevented me from doing loads of solos. That and the abominable solo dps. Maybe ill do some easy solos with the better damage. But i dont really feel too proud with setting the bar low like that.
chill dmg mitigation could be large, combine that with say protection, and some decent heal over time, or vampiric skills, and you may end up a lot more survivable.
we ll see tmr, but the concept they talked about is like horror movies, hard to kill, with big deadly moves.
its unlikely they would throw them into the mix as a brawler without some ability to mitigate damage.
Damage reduction doesnt work so well on bosses unless you go for defensive gear. So no im not optimistic with just those traits. Perma chill doesnt stop lupi from hitting you every 2-3 seconds. In groups we will be fine because we always have been when we get carried by classes with group defence. Solos less so.
And even if the damage reduction was good enough. We dont have enough sustain to supplement it. This is exactly why necros can no longer solo lupi. Im not optimistic about real active defence. But we shall see.
People keep crying about Reaper when Reaper is going to be part of the new Meta because of this spec. While Guardian got nothing. You all need to calm the hell down.
Yeah except guard is getting huge buffs in PvE through dragonhunter.
If they changed
> Cold Shoulder—Chill lasts longer, and chilled foes deal less damage to you.
to
> Cold Shoulder—Chill lasts longer, and chilled foes deal less damage.
or
> Cold Shoulder—Chill lasts longer, inflict weakness on chilled foes.
Instant boost to everyone survivability.
They can easily provide group utility while keeping the “selfish” theme by adding meaningful debuffs. They just don’t want to. I wish to be proven wrong tomorrow, but I’ve lost hope.
Agreed. Seriously wondering what they are afraid of. Surely they cant be scared of OP classes when we have a class like ele.
I wonder if necro will have more than 5 enemy-cleave restriction considering their attack will have a huge windup and scale up with the more enemies they cleave. Hmm… hmm…
On the other hand, the pulse rate of blinding utilities is not reliable when mobs have fast attack rate. From the look of the new mobs (i.e. dinosaurs) in the demo, maybe chill (and slow) will be a new form of protection.
yeah, i think enemies are going to have more skills, higher attack speed, more mobility.
focused bursts will probably require breaking the bar first.
essentially, im thinking those things alone will change the meta a decent amount.
I don’t personally care as much about meta as about interesting game play. If it is fun to play, we may be lucky to see a few new solo record here and there, along the line of what Sandy has achieved with his mesmer. We all play the meta for gold, but only fun play will last and inspire. Necro needs that face lift.
Problem is soloing doesnt look like a favourable thing with active defence still not being addressed. Thats always been the barrier which prevented me from doing loads of solos. That and the abominable solo dps. Maybe ill do some easy solos with the better damage. But i dont really feel too proud with setting the bar low like that.
Theres a major problem with this shout. It scales and spawns more jagged horrors based on how many you hit. However. Minions only hit single targets. Which means it would be most effective against a single target but against a single target you only get 1 minion. You are using an AOE skill to summon 5 weak single target minions to deal with a group of enemies. It doesnt make sense. It would make more sense if melee minions had cleave attacks. Or if they were more durable. Or if they didnt slowly degenerate health.
I just wanted to play condi and be able to not be stun locked the whole game.. thats all I asked. Oh well.. maybe Druid will not disappoint.
You might still get that. Could be traits which give bleeds to various skills and maybe defiance bar. The spec looks like it will be an improvement for PvP.
lol yeah sure, like spamming 6.5k deathly claws all over the place and your wells aren’t the best source of dps in the game.
Lava font? Ice Storm? Meteor Shower? Glyph of Storms?
These are aoe skills that do about 33%-50% less damage per target than the necro counterpart. They also do not apply condis.
They really dont do less damage lol. Glyph of Storms and Ice storm both apply conditions and do more damage. Do you even play your own class?
Lava font does slightly less damage but can be maintained permanently and provides a fire field. Therefore more damage over time. The others all do superior damage simply because they hit like trucks per impact and multiple impacts can hit the same target. Whereas Wells only pulse so they can only hit 6 times on one target maximum. If wells did more damage you would see necros in the PvE meta and not 2-3 eles. But they dont and ele AOEs are seriously strong which is why we have a staff ele + icebow meta.
The GS attacks may be slow, but a full set of shouts means an instant heal and an instant elite. Instant AOE that you can just dodge roll out of. Plus old DS was super slow and easy to blind/dodge/evade/CC, so it isn’t all bad.
I just hope it is effective and not just a noob killer.
I’m reserving final judgement until tomorrow. But so far so good.
Just as a word of caution, not all shouts are instant cast. Guard has a cast time.
You might want to update the wiki then, because there are no cast times on shouts there. Maybe Ranger shouts have a cast time, but I’m sure that guard and warrior shouts do not.
He meant the ranger shout called “guard”. I admit i was confused for a second.
The only thing it has going for it is that it looks cool. And fun for the flavour. But thats always been the only redeeming quality of necro. I was hoping for a bit of an attempt to address core issues. Guess we really do have to hope for core spec fixes and future elite specs for that.
Necro doesnt have anywhere near top condi damage. Not enough burn to do that. We can get might from signet mastery. But classes like warrior and engi can stack just as much bleed or more while also maintaining perma burn and having much higher damage on all relevent skills in a condi build.
It needs to be very high damage in addition to the vuln application. And by that i mean higher than staff ele. At the very least it should be comparable to ele and thief.
Thats curious. I tried life transfer and assumed it was well out of range because that didnt work. Its possible that its behind another layer which is blocking the damage. But then again life transfer hits through walls aswell so i have no idea why epidemic works and life transfer doesnt.
Good find. And im also very curious about it recieving condi damage lol.
He summarises discussions on the fractal & dungeon subforum. And sends them reports of the important topics discussed there. Believe it or not we actually care about equality and balance in the meta so necro being bad gets brought up fairly often.
Also with the lack of news or new dungeon/fractal content we dont really have anything new to discuss apart from class balance in small group content.
But heres the thing. Whats going to happen to the people who are actually submitting the records? Are they going to be happy with this? Its kind of irrelevant what spectators think at this point.
Its easy for you to take that stance when you dont have to worry about approving records. Inconsistency makes it harder for us. And it creates constant reoccuring discussions about special cases. Most of us would rather avoid that if we can….
And i wont deny those are my personal opinions. But i volunteered to help with records despite the rulesets not being how i want them. And im willing to accept whatever the community decides. But dont expect me to just sit here and say nothing when there are obvious problems.
@Cheezy
Im not sure what jumping puzzle you are referring to. The simin to bloodstone is the one i was talking about and is on the same level as the bone wall. Neither are intended but you arent breaking anything to do them and you arent really out of the map either. The big one at the start is different because it allows you to skip intended dungeon events and bosses. And I completely agree thats a major exploit.
And to Nike. Too many complex rules just complicates things and doesnt actually cover everything anyway. Speedruns are about innovative tactics. You cannot cover everything without completely butchering innovation.
I feel its better to have less and more simplistic rules. For the sake of consistency. You wont please everyone. But its better to have consistency and please as many people as possible while maintaining that. Instead of trying to please as many as you can but forsaking consistency.
I explained the reasoning pretty simply, I’m not interested in parsing my words further.
Not even a hint? =(
You didn’t really explain the randomness, you just said “it is random”, and I really am quite curious why the frustration line is drawn at linecasting.
If I’m missing something I’d love to have the picture clarified. I can’t be the only one curious about this reasoning.
My advice, go do a record run on a high-RNG path and you will see how disinterested in you are in adding another RNG element to it.
I admit I’m not a speedrunner, but I wasn’t aware of this “it’s too frustrating to get right so ban a mechanic from use” thing. I thought that crowd was into speedrunning for the challenge of getting everything exactly perfect.
Your mindset more closely resembles that of a true speedrunner than most of the people that dictated the current rules. Unfortunately we have to appease the majority even if it doesnt make any rational sense.
Well is the majority of the community ok with us removing the p2 and p3 records? And maybe even CM p2? Waypointing back to start before the door after trap room opens? What about all the times where people break NPC dialogues to speed up triggers? Should we enforce that aswell?
Waypointing about which door? If you mean the closed one where you have to give this heal-backpack to the NPC, there is another way out.
Except all the bandit mobs dont spawn until later. Meaning you can completely bypass them without stealth. Surely thats an exploit?
Honestly its really hard to take some of you seriously when you accept some of these things and not the others. Especially when some of the banned things are far less exploity than some of the allowed tactics. Its almost like all the old previously discovered semi exploity tactics got banned. But all the new ones are allowed because they are cool, flashy and new. Kind of amusing if you ask me.
And i know exactly why it happens. Because when you come up with these ideas in your own record. You think to yourself “thats really cool I want to show that off”. And thats fair enough, you deserve to display the ingenius tactics you come up with (the whole point of records). And as someone who personally loves the unrestricted ruleset i really appreciate those tactics and i dont want to devalue your attempts by disallowing them. In reality we should be disallowing them according to the rules. We could probably ban every last record done in the last 6 months for NPC dialogue breaking if we wanted to.
I see why you think it’s inconsistent with the current ruleset but I don’t see why you feel the need to allow one or forbid the other.
How it works atm is open for creativity but dismisses exploits. That’s what I like at the moment and I’d rather have the rules adjusted than the records.
Im not saying allow one and forbid the other. Im saying allow both. Did you not see the old CoE records? Those were incredibly creative compared to how they are now. The only questionable thing about them was killing alpha while he was doing nothing. Then again thats probably something anet should fix by making him neutral until the path finishes selection.
How it works at the moment is inconsistant and technically we should be banning p3 and p2 if we follow the rules to their exact wording/meaning.
Well is the majority of the community ok with us removing the p2 and p3 records? And maybe even CM p2? Waypointing back to start before the door after trap room opens? What about all the times where people break NPC dialogues to speed up triggers? Should we enforce that aswell?
You guys picked the rules. The rules were intended to create a fair playground without turning people away from competing. Which is why we are reluctant to just go super strict and enforce them so stiffly. But if thats what you want im sure that would be really popular.
Theres two approaches. Leave it as it is and continue to deal with all the bent rules and inconsistancies. Having to deal with constant questions about what is and isnt allowed. Or re-evalute the rules to make things consistant without completely destroying the majorities drive to compete. And unfortunately this will probably mean allowing a few things some people dont like. Because most people are two faced about it.
PS. Its also difficult for us as approvers when rules are inconsistant and generally unclear in special cases. (See CM p2 discussion recently with killing the rifleman).
I wouldnt ban anything that is done by use of in game mechanics personally. Unless there was excessive unfair monetary gain from the abuse. If i had my say id say people are free to do whatever they like in their own instances. And that is technically how it is. You only really run the risk of getting banned if you exploit when selling or maybe you exploit with a dev in your pug.
The thing is people who are clearly in favour of restricted are currently bending the rules to suit them. Like supporting the p3 and p2 blocks yet being against the CoE doors. And theres no way to run anything in this game completely as intended. Its impossible for anet to account for every little thing in design.
The only thing i would say is non negotiable in terms of intended design. Is event and boss order in dungeons. And staying within the boundaries of the map. Getting through a door a bit early is just smart play aslong as you are still completing events in the correct order.
A few more questions:
spoj: How do you perceive “exploits” being different from “exploiting bad design”, then?
In reality i dont really consider anything within using game mechanics as an exploit. Its all exploiting bad design. And there are so many things that the devs could never have intended. But theres no way they would say they are breaking the game. For example LoS pulls. These clearly exploit weak AI in order to group them up quickly. But would you consider it illegal or an exploit? No. Thats why i think people are a bit too stiff with rules and so on. The same can be said about deep freezing and bursting bosses in seconds. Im sure the devs didnt expect or intend players to be able to do that. But theres nothing wrong with doing it.
The only things i can justify as classifying as real exploits. Are really properly glitchy stuff like breaking trigger events and so on. And getting under the map and so on. But even those can be attributed to exploiting bad design. Theres not really any way to properly distinguish things other than subjective opinions. Obviously using third party software to noclip through walls is definitely an exploit/cheat/hack. That much is clear. :P
I guess to answer your question in short. If you could get banned for doing it then its an exploit. If you wont get banned but might get a queer look then its just exploiting bad design.
Pretty much the same reason we all voted against line casting being allowed for Record Runs. Sure, you can do it, but at a certain point abusing things just takes the fun out of it. It’s going to be a bit subjective, but I think that pretty much sums up the opinion on where the line is drawn for things you just shouldn’t do.
I thought it was voted against because most people couldnt do it properly? And they didnt want to have to linecast in every record. Scrubs?
Its not really any less or more fun. It certainly required a bit more skill and setup in some cases.
I agree we do need to enforce more consistancy. Its ok for those of us who are clued in. But for people that are less in the know its confusing. They have no clue whats allowed and what isnt. Making 100 path specific rules for every dungeon isnt a realistic solution either.
And im sure its no secret. But im in support of option 2. Same for most of the veteran members of rT.
I could actually see them reworking Lich like they are with tomes. And say lich will come back in the future with a new elite spec called demonologist which has transform utilities. My biggest worry with that is whether they will actually give us a really good alternative to compensate the loss of lich form.
