Guild Wars 2

This topic I was always curious about, but I always had a few friends that told me that Charr are the most technologically advanced race.

I haven’t read anything in the lore yet regarding this topic, so I figured I’d ask. I see how the Asura have portals, golems and other impressive magitech (floating city), but are the charr technologically superior when it comes to warfare?

Depends on how you look at it, really.

Let’s start by dissecting the term “technologically advanced”. “Technologically” of course referring to the subject of the term being of a technological nature, which we can further extrapolate into “technology” as the practical application of knowledge. “Advanced”, which in this term means highly developed or complex. From this we can deduce that “technologically advanced” means “applying complex knowledge”.

Take particular care to note that the key word is “knowledge”, not “science”. Many would discharge asura magitech, waypoints and golems as not being technology because it has magic involved in its construction or use. However, as we’ve deduced, technology is application of knowledge, and magic is also a form of knowledge.

Now, to answer the question, first generally, then specifically. Asura use technology much more widespread than the charr. They use it for construction, transportation, recreation, relaxation… the list goes on and on. Charr, on the other hand, use very limited technology in their day-to-day lives. Furthermore, even discarding the asura buzzwords like “electromatic deharmonizer” and “asynchronous tectonic stabilizers”, asura application of knowledge is much more complex than charr comparisons. While charr have adapted a combustion-, steam-, and coal-powered technology, asura power theirs with things like electricity, magic, tectonics, and even fusion (the Megahedron Collider used in the asura personal storyline being an obvious reference to the Hadron Collider), which no one can argue is a more complex solution than that of the charr. As a result, we can safely say that overall, asura are more technologically advanced than charr, or any other race for that matter.

Now, if talking about warfare specifically, the charr fare better but still fall short. I would say that in large-scale warfare, asura still have the upper hand due to things like the asuran megalaser showcased in the Tequila (read: Tequatl) fight. Nothing the charr have produced come even close to the complexity of that device. Even on the smaller scale, comparing the complexity of a combustion-powered charr tank versus a magic-powered asura golem firing lasers out of its fist, I’m inclined to say the golem is the more complex of the two.

Thus, my ending statement is this: regardless of which field we compare the two races in, asura are always more complex in their application of knowledge. As such, asura are always more technologically advanced than charr.

Hope this helps solve your conundrum.

Charrs use pure technology. Asuras use magic in their technology.

If Dragons will ate magic – asuras lost every single machine.

It’s pretty simplistic to say “The Asura produced singular examples of amazing technology”. I have no doubt that, even within warfare, one can find an individual Asuran, say, rifle design that puts to shame the most advanced Charr design.

The difference is, the Charr are regimented and industrialized. The standard issue rifle, for instance, is almost certainly a perfectly good weapon, and the Charr can and will produce as many as they want (Up to their limit in resources and charrpower, anyway). The best Asuran rifle is almost certainly better, but is almost certainly made with very esoteric materials, and the Val-A golem storyline demonstrates a marked unwillingness to simply replicate another Asura’s design – Asura are driven to tinker. And that same storyline (Alternately, spending 5 minutes in Rata Sum) shows that in their tinkering, Asura frequently downgrade, sidegrade, or otherwise fiddle too much in the process and either cause an improvement, or more likely, make it explode. So to get back to that point, sure the best Asuran rifle is probably amazing, with technobabble supreme – but there’s only one, or maybe a krewe’s worth. The Charr will have a rifle in the hands of every marksman, and probably a more bells n’ whistles-y one in the hands of the really good ones. Remember, it’s the Charr who provide the Pact Choppers that are used en masse, not the Asura – and Air Superiority is insanely important. And the Asura explicitly did not figure out flight going off of the NPCs (There’s a Whispers agent who says they’d have figured it out eventually, but Asura are insanely arrogant, so… XD), and even if they did figure out flight, one jet pack (It would have to be a teeny tiny jet pack. Or maybe bat wings, to settle my internal dispute of ‘bat or rabbit’), or even a krewe’s worth, is simply insufficient.

So who’s technology would be better in warfare? If we were following logic, probably the Charr’s. Wide scale organization and adaptation in military matters is always, more important than abstractly being capable of more advanced things, and there are countless examples of this in real life; even things like the Megalasers don’t change it. The real answer is “Whoever ANet decides, which is probably nobody because it wouldn’t happen”.

None of this means Asuran tech isn’t amazing, incidentally. Rata Sum is incredibly impressive, and were the Asura to adapt a more centralized structure (It wouldn’t have to be as regimented as the Charr’s, just… moreso than the whole krewe deal), they would probably be capable of surpassing Charr tech. But as they’re portrayed now? No, not for practical uses. They do get to look a lot cooler though. …which is a practical use as far as PCs are concerned

Edit: Hm, now that I think of it, there IS a College of Statics which might actually be good at working out the logistics of wide scale adaptation – certainly, Peacemakers all use the same gear, but then, they’re also faceless mooks. Hm…

With regards to the points Rutee brings up, I would state that asura would be superior than charr in a battle (keyword: a), given sufficient time to set up. In a battle with limited to no preparation time, the charr “improv-tech” would give them an edge, as asura technology does take significant time to transport and deploy, not to mention calibrate. And finally, in a full-on war scenario, charr would undoubtedly have the upper hand due to the ease of which they can deploy, redeploy and strategically maneuver their assets compared to the asura.

That said, none of this is relevant to the original question of technological complexity, to which I maintain my previously established reasoning and conclusion.

Jigain.8231:

That said, none of this is relevant to the original question of technological complexity, to which I maintain my previously established reasoning and conclusion.

Technological complexity without practical usability and logistical feasibility is of neither use nor value. Simply saying that you can make the most technologically complex widget in the world is almost as impressive as saying you’re the tallest Asura. It’s meaningless unless said widget does something useful. While the Asuran technology is impressive, and shiny and glowy and glossy, it is also overly difficult to work with, only reparable by a handful of Asura, and not quickly. Its use in a practical manner is limited, at best.

This is not the case with Charr technology. Charr technology is simple to deploy, easy to repair, and reliable.

It’s the difference between a Roman road and a modern highway. Sure the modern highway carries more weight, passes more cars and in a shorter time, but it breaks down every few years, has to be practically rebuilt from scratch, and even then it takes a long time to repair. Roman roads, laid thousands of years ago, are still around, and some are actually still in use. Without repairs. Which was engineered better?

If I need a one-off weapon or item to be used in a single situation, and I know that I have time to get it done, I’ll go with the Asura. If I need thousands of items, produced quickly, distributed to thousands of people, and they all have to work right every time, I’ll take Charr tech every time.

Complexity and Advancement only matter if they can be put to use, and Asuran tech is highly theoretical. Charr tech is practical. Practical trumps Theory every time. My money is on the Charr.

Drakkon.4782:

Jigain.8231:

That said, none of this is relevant to the original question of technological complexity, to which I maintain my previously established reasoning and conclusion.

Technological complexity without practical usability and logistical feasibility is of neither use nor value.

So what you’re saying is “this thread has no purpose, therefore I will use it to discuss something entirely different”?

Jigain.8231:

Drakkon.4782:

Jigain.8231:

That said, none of this is relevant to the original question of technological complexity, to which I maintain my previously established reasoning and conclusion.

Technological complexity without practical usability and logistical feasibility is of neither use nor value.

So what you’re saying is “this thread has no purpose, therefore I will use it to discuss something entirely different”?

No, what I’m saying is that “your interpretation of value is wrong and I will refute it with intelligence and common sense.” I can see how you might get confused. You’re only technically correct in your assessment of the question being asked, but your interpretation is not the only one that can be made, nor is your stance the only one that should be considered. When considering who is the most technologically advanced, one must consider how to measure technological advancement. You choose to measure it by overall complexity. I choose to measure it by cultural feasibility and practicality. The most advanced technology is that which works, can be mass produced, and provides benefit to the user.

By your own admission, the Asura cannot mass produce anything but Peacekeeper gear, and that is only comparable to the technology manufactured by the Charr. It is, therefore, not superior, and not more advanced. Similarly, there are many areas in which the Charr excel in production and benefit, making them the clear winners for the most advanced category.

But if we need to hold a science fair, I’m sure the Asura will make a good showing.

The ability to manufacture one-off superweapons is not useless either, even without leaving fiction. Mad science has its place, especially in an alliance where someone else is handling the, for lack of a better term, normal science. Asura technology DID contribute heavily to the production of airships, after all, and especially to the flagship you use to down Zhaitan. Just make sure someone else is in charge of mass production (Unless I’m underestimating the College of Statics, which isn’t impossible).

Regarding roman roads, you’re kinda ignoring that they’re built to handle tonnages that are orders of magnitude lower than a highway, and given the speed at which those tonnages moved, suffered considerably less wear and tear. They’re very, very well designed, but they’re not practical for the purposes of moving large amounts of goods at high speeds.

Regarding Charr and Asura tech in war, I did forget one other thing the Charr are clearly going to reign supreme in – organization. This is insanely important if you want to talk real-life logic, because both battles and wars are only very rarely fought to the death. Unit cohesion and morale break well before the army dies off, and both are easier to maintain with clear communication, organized chains of command, regimented armies and the like.

Drakkon.4782:

You’re only technically correct in your assessment of the question being asked, but your interpretation is not the only one that can be made, nor is your stance the only one that should be considered.

I have never stated it as such; in fact, I was hoping for a discussion around the topic. I was merely taken aback by the seemingly irrelevant discussion you brought to the table without prior explanation of your thought pattern. I will forgive you for forgetting the critical bridge of reasoning, but do try to keep it in mind for further discussions. A man asking for directions to a particular city would be confused, after all, if you answered by listing the best hotels in the vicinity without mentioning it is because you think it’s too late to get there by nightfall.

Drakkon.4782:

When considering who is the most technologically advanced, one must consider how to measure technological advancement. You choose to measure it by overall complexity. I choose to measure it by cultural feasibility and practicality. The most advanced technology is that which works, can be mass produced, and provides benefit to the user.

Now your comments have a more valid ground. I have previously stated exactly what my reasoning is based on, that being the literal meaning of the words “technological” and “advancement” in this phrase. Fine if you choose to base your opinion on mass production and usefulness, but do you have any reasoning behind interpreting “technologically advanced” and “technologically superior” as these two buzzwords rather than the cold, hard facts I provided?

Drakkon.4782:

By your own admission, the Asura cannot mass produce anything but Peacekeeper gear, and that is only comparable to the technology manufactured by the Charr.

I have never said anything of the sort. Not sure wuite what scenarios you’re trying to think of, but asura mass produce many things. Asura gates are mass produced, as are waypoints. Lightning turrets, Mark I and II golems. And that’s not even mentioning the standardized melee and ranged weapons. Asura even have a schematic archive with standardized specs for inventions.

Drakkon.4782:

It is, therefore, not superior, and not more advanced.

Again you go with random supposition based on nothing but hot air.

Drakkon.4782:

Similarly, there are many areas in which the Charr excel in production and benefit, making them the clear winners for the most advanced category.

Again, you’ve not put down any foundation for your assumption that “advanced” is a synonym to “widely available”; not to mention not a single example of this supposed multitude of applications in which charr improv-tech provides more benefit than asura equivalents.

Drakkon.4782:

But if we need to hold a science fair, I’m sure the Asura will make a good showing.

I’m sure the charr tribune will be there to show his favorite weapon, the best there is in the Legion. Do refresh my memory, it was made by humans, was it not? As in… not charr?

Asura even have a schematic archive with standardized specs for inventions.

…which they then immediately tinker with in reproduction. They don’t seem to typically mass produce, but they probably could if they decided to organize properly for it. Mark I and II golems are mass produced, but they’re also Inquest.

The waypoints and Asura Gates are better examples! But they may not be good ones – at the end of the day, there’s only what, 40 Asura gates, and a few hundred waypoints? I mean, I wouldn’t even count that as mass production without direct evidence of production lines, for Asura Gates, and they’re titanically expensive to use on scales larger than “individual adventurers”. Both Asura and humans confirm that much.

Waypoints are a better example, and DO point to a capability to produce things en masse should the Asura choose to – the remaining problem then, would be the clearly disorganized nature in which they operate.

Again, you’ve not put down any foundation for your assumption that “advanced” is a synonym to “widely available”; not to mention not a single example of this supposed multitude of applications in which charr improv-tech provides more benefit than asura equivalents.

Er, the foundation for this is “The most advanced army is not the one that can produce the highest tech doodad possible, but the one that can most easily put practical advancements in the hands of the most soldiers.” That’s straight up how it works in real life; take guns. They were developed earlier than most people realize, but their utility was pretty limited until people worked out formations that they could be usefully used in during battle – you couldn’t just drop someone in with a musket and expect them to perform as well as someone with a longbow even before discounting that the longbow was a better weapon for the well-trained. It wasn’t until Maurice of Nassau that musketmen could be left more or less unattended with no halberdiers or the like as protection.

That’s hands down going to be the Charr. Their organization in military matters is clearly superior to that of the Asura. The Asura are most certainly more advanced in general, and with a more centralized structure could easily turn that into a more advanced army… but they don’t have that centralized structure or that organization.

If all ‘warfare technology’ means to you is the best doodads? Then yes, the Asura are better, no doubt, with the exception of flight (Which they flatly never worked out themselves). But that’s a pretty useless view of what technology in warfare means.

Rutee.1058:

Asura even have a schematic archive with standardized specs for inventions.

…which they then immediately tinker with in reproduction. They don’t seem to typically mass produce, but they probably could if they decided to organize properly for it. Mark I and II golems are mass produced, but they’re also Inquest.

The waypoints and Asura Gates are better examples! But they may not be good ones – at the end of the day, there’s only what, 40 Asura gates, and a few hundred waypoints? I mean, I wouldn’t even count that as mass production without direct evidence of production lines, for Asura Gates, and they’re titanically expensive to use on scales larger than “individual adventurers”. Both Asura and humans confirm that much.

Waypoints are a better example, and DO point to a capability to produce things en masse should the Asura choose to – the remaining problem then, would be the clearly disorganized nature in which they operate.

Ex-squeeze me? I’m guessing you retrieved the “information” about Mark I and II golems being Inquest only from the wiki, which is only partially correct – both models are used extensively by ALL asura, only outside of the Inquest they typically have designation numbers if not outright names. If necessary I could give, say, twenty or thirty examples. And even if you will only acknowledge the Inquest produced golems, let me remind you that Inquest, too, are asura.

All standardized models are eventually upgraded or otherwise modified, mass produced or not. Just think about it, the T-Ford was mass produced, and yet today’s Ford cars do not look or handle like those. This is because the original standard was modified for future models.

Asura gates number plenty more than 40, and that’s only counting the ones players have access to. Just consider this, asura gates are mass produced to such an extent that many, if not most, asuran inventors have private asura gates leading to their labs.

Rutee.1058:

Again, you’ve not put down any foundation for your assumption that “advanced” is a synonym to “widely available”; not to mention not a single example of this supposed multitude of applications in which charr improv-tech provides more benefit than asura equivalents.

Er, the foundation for this is “The most advanced army is not the one that can produce the highest tech doodad possible, but the one that can most easily put practical advancements in the hands of the most soldiers.” That’s straight up how it works in real life; take guns. They were developed earlier than most people realize, but their utility was pretty limited until people worked out formations that they could be usefully used in during battle – you couldn’t just drop someone in with a musket and expect them to perform as well as someone with a longbow even before discounting that the longbow was a better weapon for the well-trained. It wasn’t until Maurice of Nassau that musketmen could be left more or less unattended with no halberdiers or the like as protection.

That’s hands down going to be the Charr. Their organization in military matters is clearly superior to that of the Asura. The Asura are most certainly more advanced in general, and with a more centralized structure could easily turn that into a more advanced army… but they don’t have that centralized structure or that organization.

If all ‘warfare technology’ means to you is the best doodads? Then yes, the Asura are better, no doubt, with the exception of flight (Which they flatly never worked out themselves). But that’s a pretty useless view of what technology in warfare means.

Let me point out that there is a significant one-word difference between “the most advanced army” and “the most technologically advanced army”. I am not disputing that the charr army would win a war; in fact I support that estimation as seen earlier in the thread. What I am disputing is, if we were to go by your example, that 500 longbowmen can be considered more technologically advanced than 500 of the earliest musketmen. The muskets are clearly more technologically advanced than the longbows. That’s not saying they’d automatically win, or even have a good chance at it, but more technologically advanced nonetheless.

Ex-squeeze me? I’m guessing you retrieved the “information” about Mark I and II golems being Inquest only from the wiki, which is only partially correct

No, I played the game as an Asura, and never saw any indication that Asura use standardized models themselves in any of the renown hearts I did or in my personal story… except for the Inquest.

All standardized models are eventually upgraded or otherwise modified, mass produced or not. Just think about it, the T-Ford was mass produced, and yet today’s Ford cars do not look or handle like those. This is because the original standard was modified for future models.

This is a horrible example. IT’s not that there’s a modification at all, it’s that the modifications come from individuals reproducing the original themselves, rather than organized efforts at improving a model for a new, better mass production model. We have very little evidence of mass production outside of the Arcane Council’s tools (The Peacekeepers and the Arcane Eye), who’s overall presence is very small because of the decentralized nature of the Asura.

Asura gates number plenty more than 40, and that’s only counting the ones players have access to. Just consider this, asura gates are mass produced to such an extent that many, if not most, asuran inventors have private asura gates leading to their labs.

There’s the ones to/from Lion’s Arch, Ebonhawke/Divinity’s Reach, and a few scattered ones for JPs, in addition to Rata Sum’s, as far as I’ve seen. 40 is actually being incredibly generous because I didn’t feel like counting. I’m not sure every genius’ lab has an Asuran gate to it, but yours does, and that’s reasonable evidence for the proposition (Zojja’s too speshul). If so, then yes, and that supports that they can plausibly engage in mass production. Again, the issue is almost more the lack of organization to DO anything with that technological potential.

There is a difference between “the most advanced army” and “the most technologically advanced army

Yeah, one’s marginally faster to say.

What I am disputing is, if we were to go by your example, that 500 longbowmen can be considered more technologically advanced than 500 of the earliest musketmen.

Considering the longbow was no more a static weapon than the musket, you would be wrong to start with, but without the innovation of volley fire, the longbow is more technologically advanced – ‘technology’ doesn’t just refer to some raw and abstract thing of how metallic it is, but also how well we understand how to use what we have effectively.

The muskets are clearly more technologically advanced than the longbows.

By what grounds is an inferior weapon in practice more ‘technologically advanced’? The only thing muskets had going for them was military applications to start with; they were less accurate, their range was shorter, and only approximately as effective in puncturing armor. What made initial guns eventually surpass the bow was that they were more practical militarily, because you could much more easily train peasants in how to engage in volley fire (or simple fire while covered, prior to that) than you could train them to use a bow. That’s why more advanced armies used guns – not because guns were better weapons (initially, and for a reasonable period after), but because they could be put to use on the scale a military demanded more efficiently. You’re only supporting my point.

Jigain makes a good point in the first post. it is entirely dependant on which definition of ‘technology’ we use. Iron Legion Charr tend to use science, asura tend to use mystics in their science to get magitech. A-net has taken the position that the definition they prefer is science=technology when they stated that the class that embodies IL tech exemplifies the advancement of technology in tyria.

that said, if we ignore a-nets preference, we still see what the charr are able to do when they decide to include magic in their technology. F&F gives us portals, magitech weapons, effigies.

Charr do more with less by choosing to largely shun magic. And they do it so well that they’ve surpassed asura general understanding in science.

On the same note, asura choose to include magic in their tech and this has caused them to rely on that magic, stunting their scientific levels the same way charr society has a stunted magic level. And asura definitely have a greater understanding of the principles of merging magic and technology, than charr society has.

So while there is still no clear answer, I would wonder who has a greater understanding of magic principles. (Not just merging magic with technology) The flame legion or the asura? The same “asura get results with their magitech” reasoning that supports asura technological advancement can also be applied to the FL getting comparable results with just their magic. And actually, that would flow back to this topic because it would also mean that the FL is just as technologically advanced as the IL and the asura.

Well, I admit I didn’t read all of that, but regarding the apparent lack of asuran mass production: what about WvW siege golems?

Going by the recruiters in the major cities, WvW does actually exist in the GW universe, and it’s hard to argue that the golems wouldn’t be asuran and mass produced.